There has been a change in plans, and I have a crane operator wanting to charge extra for adding additional counterweights. Three additional counterweights at about 22,000 pounds each are needed. I can understand the additional mobilization/transportation costs, but I don't know how much these would be for a rental rate? Can anyone help me with this? Even the full cost of counterweights this size would be helpful. Thanks.
It makes a big difference on what size of crane it is and what type of crane it is. If its like a 275 ton grove gmk, and they are just adding cheek weights, its not a big deal if he's just running on main boom. If he has luffer or maxi lift on, and you don't have another crane on site to hang the weights on the back, you would have to take the luffer and maxi lift off, drop tray, add weights, then reassemble. That's going to take some time and manpower. Likewise if you have a big crawler and luffing jib all put together, and the lift is more radius or more weight than planned, and you have to add weights. He may not be able to add weights without dropping the weight tray, and on some you can't drop tray without removing boom, or setting it down. If he doesn't have room to set it down, then you have to walk it to the lay down yard, and If you have to take all the boom apart to add weights its going to be spendy. Without knowing what kind of crane, and how far you have to truck the counterweights, and what they have to do to mount it, I don't know what to tell you for a rate. Are they making you purchase the weights (I don't know if you bought or rented this for a job/ or its a outside rental outfit), or do they already own the weights and you just have to get them delivered. If you had to actually purchase new additional ctw. that the crane didn't come with from the factory, they could easily be five figures each ($10-20,000 each, and it wouldn't shock me if they were twice or three times that amount, if they are even available). My local large crane outfit, typically gets $1,000-$2,000 per load of ctw. if they are bidding a job for their 210ton all terrain I think. It depends how far they have to travel (I would think it would be $1,000 within a hour of town), and whether they have enough of their own trucks for the job or have to hire it done. Each load is basically two trips with the semi and trailer, one to deliver, another when they tear down.
When I'm hiring a concrete pump and I tell them a 80 ft pump is what I need, if they send a 100 ft. Pump because that's all that's available they charge me for a 80 ft. But if they have to reach 81 ft. I'm paying for a 100 ft. Could be something similar in your case.
Thanks crane operator, your response helps a lot. The crane is a Liebherr LTM 1220-5.2. All the other counterweights are at site. The remaining 3 have to be brought for the crane to have all it's counterweights on. The weights would be a rental. I am not sure if the company already has the weights or if they need to purchase them. There are other cranes at site that could help with the assembly if required. As I said, I have a good handle on the transportation costs. Tradesman: Yes this is the case. There was a change in plan and now the additional counterweights are required. I do not have a problem with the additional cost, I am just trying make sense of the additional costs.
No problem, here's a tech spec sheet on the crane, there's a metric chart too, but I'm a backwards American, I can't read that. https://www.liebherr.com/external/p...e-crane-211-ltm-1220-5-2-td-211-00-us04-2.pdf https://www.liebherr.com/external/p...e-crane-211-ltm-1220-5-2-td-211-00-defisr.pdf You can use that chart to double check the lift. Looks like full weights is 163,000, they maybe only have 97,000lbs on right now? Looks like the chart doesn't change much until you get out past 70' radius on main boom. Makes more of a difference with jib on. It wouldn't surprise me if they charge more per hour for the crane fully dressed (full counterweight), than they do if they aren't using all of the counterweight. They usually do that because when they send a 200 ton without all the counterweight, the customer complains that they are paying full rate for 2/3 of the crane. Unfortunately if the lift has changed and they need the extra weight, you don't have much choice. I have added weights onto a crane like that, with jib mounted. We used a second crane to add the weights and left jib mounted. I seriously doubt that they will need to purchase the weights, I'd be really shocked if they're not laying in their yard. If you called today and tried to buy those weights, you probably wouldn't see them for 6 months, maybe longer. If its not the current style they make, they would have to be cast, loaded on the boat in europe, to shipyard here, trucked to your site.
Yes, they are needing to go from 97,000 to 163,000. Wouldn't the extra cost for these weights be small - around $10ish/hr (excluding transportation, assembly, etc)? This crane is needed for 2-3 weeks.
Just going off the charts, 97,000lbs ctw. gets you a max 150 ton, 163,000 is 265 ton. I could see that costing $200+ a hour more. No it doesn't cost the crane company that much to stack three more weights on. But the price structure has to go by capacity. I know that seems outrageous, but if you're buying a crane, that' a half a million dollar price difference in newer used cranes. In a new crane it might be a million dollar price difference. (between a 150 ton and a 265 ton crane). The hourly prices have to go up accordingly.
I get what you are saying. So what would a contractor do if the the original plan was using 97,000 lbs ctw and then the change went up to 119,000 lbs ctw? The load charts show the same max load.
Sounds like you need to start at the start, and figure out what your pick is and what the radius is and design the pick from the start. The kinda $ your talking about and the fact that you think someone might be taking advantage of you, it might be worth talking to an engineer that specializes in lift design.
They probably have a scale structure for their crane. Base load counterweight, more $ for all the main weights, more $ for adding cheek weights. They probably don't have a rate for every possible counterweight configuration, probably just 3 different rates (maybe 150ton, 200 ton and 265 ton, depending on what cranes they have, and what their competition has). But they may charge more for adding jib, luffing jib, maxi- lift. The more stuff you need, the more it costs. If the original plan, that they quoted you the crane for, has changed, and now you need more crane, that's not on them. Just because they sent a 265ton at a 150ton rate, doesn't mean you can get the 265ton capacity, at the 150ton rate for the job, by just paying to bring out some more weights. I'm sorry, but that's on whoever gave them the figures, and I'm sorry if its you that has to pay for it. Crane companies can't afford to always have every size crane available, so sometimes switch things around. But they still have to be competitive with their rate structure. If the 150 ton was going to be needed on a different project, they might send out the 265 with just one load of counterweight, to set on your job for three weeks. But you wouldn't want to pay the full 265 rate, just because that's all they had available to send out. I suppose you should consider yourself lucky that they did bring a bigger crane originally, or you'd be paying to tear down the smaller crane, mobilize it back home, and then bring out a 265 ton crane. As it is, all you will have to do is stack weights, and pay the higher rate. Sorry I couldn't give you better news....
Thanks crane operator - your comments are very appreciated.
I'm in a unique situation. I'm the GC on a grain storage project. It has a hoop style building with 180' clear span arch trusses with a canvas covering. I sub contracted the erection of the trusses and covering. Guy needed two 50-60 ton cranes, the cost of which he included in his bid proposal to me. I only have one that size. After that I have a 100 ton, a 165 ton and a 190 ton. I told him I'd run the 100 ton at a 60 ton rate. (only half the c/w). When the time came for him to set the trusses, our 60 ton crane was down. (ECM). So, I sent the 100 ton. The 165 ton is tied up on another job, so I sent the 190 ton. I absolutely could not bear the thought of renting a competitors crane on my own job site. So, I'm OK with sending the 190 ton. Even though financially, it really doesn't make sense. It was just sitting in the yard anyhow. The problem I have is..He had told me this was a two day job. So we negotiated a flat rate for me furnishing the two cranes. We discussed if it took longer or less time than planned. We both agreed we'd stick to the flat rate regardless. He scheduled the day we'd start lifting. You crane guys know how much more trouble it is to move a 190 ton vs a 60 ton crane to site. We took one load of C/W with it. There was also a load of c/w for the 100 ton. We get set up on site at the agreed upon time. We never lifted the first day. He was late getting started, and bad weather set in. I understand when weather sets in, but, this bad weather was forecasted, and he ignored it. Plus, he had time to get the first 4 trusses set and braced before the bad weather if he hadn't drug his feet. There was a total of 27 trusses. First day he didn't set anything. Second day he set 5 trusses. Takes longer to get the first ones set, squared, plumb and braced up. Third day he set 8 trusses. Fourth day he set 8 trusses, which was all he had assembled. He spent the next two days assembling the remaining trusses. During that time, to be honest we were able to use one of the cranes for our work on the same site, so wasn't a total waste. Fifth day we set the remaining trusses. Sixth day we set some end wall columns that he had planned to use a tele-handler on. So, what's fair? The day he set the final trusses, he emailed me a draw for $40,000, which matches the contract documents. I'll cut the check this coming Wednesday, but, I will definitely hold out the crane charges. I think I need to re negotiate the crane charges before cutting his check. What's ya'lls thoughts?
Why did you agree to stick to the flat rate regardless? Seems like changing what you charge is going against what you agreed to, which isn't advisable. Also the prime subbing to a sub of the prime's seems to ask for trouble. There's nothing directly wrong with it, but it does compound issues.
I'd say he took full advantage of the overly generous terms you agreed to. Sending the 190 ton didn't have anything to do with him.
Agreeing to overly generous terms is setting yourself up to be taken advantage of; the reason to not agree to overly generous terms.
As little as you like it, you already know what the answer is to your situation. The crane size doesn't matter- transport, permits, truck loads, but I know how it bothers you. The bad weather days, and extra time to build trusses doesn't matter either, if he was renting me, he would have sent me home while he was getting ready. I think estimating setting 27 - 180' long clear span trusses, braced, end wall, and cover, in two days, was way too optimistic; but the time for that conversation is way past. You can't just put a couple nailers between those big trusses and hope for the best. So say I go to bid a building job, big general contractor and I set down, I say I'm using two cranes or something, to set the big rafters, big general contractor says, I've got the cranes- don't worry about that, we'll take care of that part of the bid. Two days, slap them babies up and your done, we do it all the time. I'll bid my part- says big general, OK sounds good to me little guy. I show up to set rafters, and big general contractor rolls up with a 100 ton and 190 ton crane to set my rafters, that maybe I could have got with two big telehandlers. Whatever, I think- its his $ and if big general contractor wants to make a show of setting trusses, he can do what he wants, he bid his part. Weather gets bad, I'm not telling big general contractor to take his cranes home, he bid his part, he can do what he wants. When we weren't ready, they were using it for their own stuff on site anyways, so that doesn't cost the big general anything. So now I finally get done, and big general says he's not paying me, because he had to use big cranes, and it took too long??? I don't have much choice because big general is holding all the cards ($), and he can probably handle the lawsuit better than I can. All I can do is tell everyone I know, including the owners of the mill what a a$$hat the big general is. Big general said he was providing the cranes, because he doesn't want someone else on his site. He bid the crane part and said he'd cover the flat rate. Now he wants me to come up with $10,000 because he brought in two huge cranes and wants me (the little guy) to pay for it. Doesn't sound like a great scenario to me, sometimes I try to look at things from the other side.... One thing about it, you know which sub not to bid crane work for now, and I think if you try to charge him extra for the crane time, you better be ready for a war. You have the ability to hold back the $ if you want to, but I personally wouldn't. Just because you can hold back the $, and you could easily justify the money for your extra crane time, doesn't mean you should.
Just need different terms next time. He got a great deal with unlimited time and took advantage of it. He may well have figured that flexibility into his bid.
I've been on the other side of the fence, the crane company didn't bring enough stick. Many years ago, doesn't matter. Ex- military, lattice boom mobile, not enough stick to set the trusses, "I've got a jib at the shop". BFD!, had to drag 54' trusses 15' to get them in place. You were told the building size, no space/set-up issues. No excuse for not bringing the proper equipment. *****r still charged full price. Last time I called that number. Ed
hahaha Wait you guys. Don't turn me into a jerk yet. You guys are right. I agreed on it. Going into this I knew 2 days was optimistic. I'm a big boy, I can stand it. I agreed with him on the price, I will stick to it. I knew I would, it still ticks me off though.
I hear ya man it sucks when clients take advantage of your sense of decency. They don't do what they said what they would do but never offer to make it right. It's cost me a pile of money over the years in the building end of things.
I knew you could handle it. It is kind of nice to vent a little sometimes though. Ready for harvest Impact? Should be getting down to crunch time for you isn't it?
Dont go thinking I'm a nice guy. Harvest is on us. Two major projects to complete yet. No different than any other year. If I wasn't behind this time of year, I didn't contract enough work