How beneficial would it be, (or not) to easily crib up a tracked machine to run the undercarriage unloaded? I've been floating this idea around for a few months after cribbing mine up to both steam clean and lubricate moving parts after removing 40+ years of crud and buildup. It sure made cleaning the underside easy including the inner sides of the track frames and rollers. Now I didn't have anything moving, or rotating while under there, but it made for easy repositioning of the tracks for access, and easy feeling for "notchy" rollers.by hand. I see a lot of skid steers and mini's in for service and a couple have expressed interest in having their machines periodically cleaned so I'm wondering about a niche market as nobody I know offers this service.
Blocking inside the track frames is tricky to get it stable enough. You are getting narrow with the cribbing if you want to turn the tracks. Once you get it cribbed you'll have no access at all remaining to do any work down the middle, so I would wonder about the benefits. I see running it up on blocks and then jacking one side at a time might be workable for looking at rollers etc. That way the other side is down on the track, and you are just using some blocks and jacks and have room to work them on the one side.
When doing undercarriage work we cribbed up tractors all the time. However it was done with steel stands, two under the front directly below the hardnose and two under the corners of the rear gear case. That method of support was pretty much earthquake resistant.
I often run my dozer up on 8x8 wood blocks in the shop to get better clearance when dropping the belly pans or doing service work underneath. If I need the tracks off the ground I use a large bottle jack and heavy stands to get the rear of the machine up, then use the blade down pressure to lift the front, then add cribbing or stands as needed.
Glad to read the idea is not that far fetched. Removing belly pans is what started this idea when under I discovered there is only about 11" clearance from the bottom of the equalizer bar to ground and really not enough room to slide under on a creeper. I used a 20 ton floor jack under the rear drawbar hitch and blocked with hardwood cribbing just inside the lift point outermost on the main tractor casting. I then used 6X6 hardwood blocks under the cutting edge and pivoted the dozer up level. After cribbing up under the hard nose, I had about 24" under the equalizer bar and about 4" at the lowest point of track sag to concrete. I could go higher by repeating the process with spacer blocks in the jacking points, but this served the purpose needed. I only removed the belly pans for cleaning and straightening and cleaned everything up a little bit. I was remote at our family property so tools were limited. Now with the tractor back at my shop, I'm thinking of an easier type setup using rolling jacks and stands. I have plenty or hardwood cribbing as I salvage shipping skids implements are bolted to when they come in which is quite often.
Reference your above we would drop the belly guards before jacking the machine up and cribbing it. More as a result of our permitted work practices than anything else.
Thanks, I discovered that with limited working room as skyking noted. Had the machine up and cribbed, then discovered how heavy those guards were being full of fuel oil and mud about four inches deep, (averaged). I had to drop the back of the tractor back down removing cribbing to allow a smaller floor jack with a wide saddle to roll underneath. I then reblocked the tractor back up and used the floor jack to support the weight, and drop the belly pans down. They weighed about 1/3 once cleaned up, but were still to heavy to manhandle by oneself without use of a jack.
Try a come-along or chain block anchored to the hood on one side then with a sling under the machine to the track on the opposite side of the tractor and then lower it that way. Apart from removing the bolts nobody has to go under the machine.
Is this a common practice when doing routine type maintenance tasks, or only major repair types? Reason I ask is I see a lot of equipment and it's just caked in grease and dirt which would be best removed if easily done. An elevated machine where panels can be removed for access would seemingly make this task less miserable and a better job performed. I can see this need for wheeled equipment also to a degree.
On the dozer I change the oil every 200hrs along with other service, so I pull it up on the blocks, drop all the belly pans and wash everything out. Keeps every thing clean and easy to work on, and reduces the risk of a fire when I’m pushing up burn piles. I do the same on my skid steer and CTL.
I used to use a small, engine-driven, 2" centrifugal firefighting pump along with a 200 gallon tank of water containing a couple of handfuls of laundry detergent, to wash tractors down. Washing out radiators and keeping cooling systems clean and full of quality coolant, is certainly an area where neglect normally runs rampant. Never bothered cribbing my tractors up, just used to drive them up onto wooden blocks or sleepers (railroad ties) to lift them a little, to allow the dirt and trash to fall away. Personally speaking, I can't see where there would be much of a business proposition to offer a washdown service using cribbing - but perhaps the situation is different in your local area. Cribbing takes up room, whereas a machinery stand takes up little room, and allows better access.
My line of thinking mirrors yours. I have several ties from a former rail line I've used in the past but they are nearing end of their service life as getting "soft". I have a disused outdoor wash bay that is 26' deep and currently 12' wide but could be expanded easy enough. When in business it was used a lot in the warmer months and on the other side of the wall is the interior wash bay for the colder months which doubled as the detail shop. Not in the car business any longer so looking to repurpose these spaces.
I know a guy who owned a custom trailer shop. A customer wanted an easier way to wash under trucks. He designed a hoist that pivoted to raise the front of trucks up quite high so it was easy to clean the underside. He used air bags from a semi to do the lifting. Could you make 2 seperate platforms for each track with ramps to get on top of them. They would be just high enough to fit air bags. Once on top you inflate the air bags (1 or 2 at each end depending how much weight you want to lift) to lift the machine higher. Drop neck trailers use air bags a similar way. Could incorporate safety pins or something so they couldn't fall when the air was shut off.
I've had fleeting thoughts on this for a long time really. I have four 4" bore hydraulic cylinders that stroke 9'8" with a 3.5" rod I salvaged from container unloaders several years ago. Just last year I put 2000psi against all four and they work well. I've thought of emulating a four post semi truck lift with these raising 60" to 72" using vertical standing 3/8" wall square tubing with sidewall reliefs and necessary gusseting to offer the needed strength. 10" beams spanning 10' to the outer post legs would lift/carry 20 tons with 1500psi applied pressure according to rough calculations with an acceptable safety factor. This is actually thicker/heavier material than a factory built four post semi truck lift I would somewhat emulate. Crazy? Sure. Can I build a business case out of it? I don't know but everything starts with an idea; some "crackpot", some feasible and fitting a need. More research is needed of course but being able to do a lot of this engineering myself does not tie up a lot of $$$ to bring to fruition. This is a snip I've grabbed from an online vendor, but it shows basically what could be done with runways on the cross beams which could be removed and replaced with centered "jacking beams" to lift a machine clear of the floor with cribbing. This of course would not leave a clear span under anything but that could probably be worked with. Most manufacturers use a cable and sheave type system to lift the opposing saddle supporting the cross beam and if I did similar, a six column lift could be utilized. Just free floating ideas at this point and it may not go anyplace at all. Right now floor, and bottle jacks work pretty well for what I'm doing by myself but if I enlist future help in the shop before my final "curtain call", I'll want to make it easier for all.
Starts with these:
I have a grease pit for belly work. For rear work take ramps off a trailer. Track, undercarriage work you need wooden cribbing. My crawler isn't real heavy (14600 LBS) so whatever you have. A very heavy tractor I'd use 6x6 timbers laid up log cabin style.
My downdraft spray paint room is set up like a shallow grease pit. 30" deep and 24" wide covered with crossbar grating. There are restricting baffles under the blanket filter media and grating to ensure even airflow through the trench. I have thought about that pit idea also with buried heavy angle in the transition of the concrete edges to support rolling bridges to use as jacking beams. My cribbing is mostly 4X4X18, and 4X6X18 and I do step the "lifts" or as you state "log cabin" style for support elevation. It's about the longest clean pieces I can get from the source. The rest have counterbored bolt recesses, or mortise joints through them. Ultimately this may be the most cost effective arena to evaluate further. Only a pad and block work would be required and the proper zoning is already in place. As long as I don't erect a permanent structure over the top, the taxes won't increase either.
If you can acquire reasonably cheap heavy steel sections, a tilting ramp is another option. But you wouldn't be able to spin the tracks freely in that option. Here's a light vehicle duty version, you'd need to build a heavier model of course, for tractors.
We use portable wash pads here a lot in heavy construction and mining. They have the advantage of being environmentally friendly, and the contaminants and weed seeds don't get spread around. They have removable grating above a containment bund so the dirt and grease and mud washed off can be removed and disposed off in an approved manner. I see where you have them in the U.S., and Canada, too. However, they're an expensive setup, unless you can pick one up used from an auction. Portable Wash Pads Our unique, rugged and self-contained portable wash pads come with everything you need for a heavy equipment wash rack on the go. evansequipment.com Steel Wash Rack, Above Ground Steel Wash Racks, Portable Wash Rack The steel wash rack offers more control over the wash water. Zero Discharge Portable Custom Containment Systems. Above Ground Steel Wash Rack. riveer.com Portable Wash Station - Proline Global Portable Wash Pad's are a proactive alternative for steam cleaning, pressure washing and servicing of equipment. Enviro-Pads - Wash Pad/Station provides containment of used wash water and contaminated waste allowing for disposal in an environmentally approved manner. Wash Pads/Stations are... proline-global.com
A portable wash pad doesn't make it any easier to clean underneath. It might make it harder.
Running with the trench, or grease pit idea sounds interesting to me. Say a 30" wide finished trench/pit width with concrete block sidewalls atop a poured floor enclosed by a space frame clear shell. I'm thinking the tops of the sidewall(s) transition from vertical to the horizontal plane be topped with 5X5X3/4" angle steel around it's perimeter to permit two sliding, or rolling jacking beams to be utilized if needed which would be easily removable. Steps at either one, or both ends to facilitate entry/exit to the trench. This jacking beam idea comes straight from my automotive frame rack and they were used a lot lifting, twisting, and pushing things back into shape. Around here they don't tax yard storage sheds, nor the same with a concrete floor. They do tax buildings so would need to make this appear to be a shed if elected to enclose. I don't know at this point but it would be fairly easy to fabricate an enclosure which could be easily taken down. If clear fiberglass panels such as these shown in the link were utilized with treated lumber for the space frame, the cost wouldn't be that great. A roll up door would most likely be utilized for this affair. https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...roof-panel/1592834/p-1444424087688-c-5819.htm I'll have to speak with the zoning board before going any further but I'm sure an open concrete pad and trench would have no effect. Don't know about laws/rules pertaining to an open trench, or even a chain guarded trench if outdoors. Enclosed would be no problem. Little thing yet to figure out but I'm kind of favoring this approach. I have the ground needed available so may run with it.
Mine is inside the garage. I used 8" thick poured concrete walls. The floor is on top of well prepared compacted gravel. At the pit area the floor is 8" thick. Inner form walls were left in place & 3 x 3" strips were fastened to the forms. When first built, I covered with 3" thick oak planks sawed with a chainsaw & Alaskan sawmill. They were heavy & didn't always get put back covering. I later got aluminum diamond plate decking with 3 2 x 4 aluminum channel joists in each. Each of four covers weighs about 50 LBS.
I have a good friend in CT that has a pit in his garage and rebuilds antique trucks. He finds it very useful also. His is set up like they used to do alignment pits with the front being very expanded and open for working under front ends. No way to jack anything other than a tire clear of the floor for changing. Floor in my shop is 9" thick on top of well compacted fill sand over virgin ground. Did this myself but there are heating coils in the floor so really limited to what I can do inside the main shop area. Just to the south of my outside wash bay is the pump house for my water supply. About 20 feet IIRC. This is a good well but is not being utilized, but both water, and electrical piping are lain under the slab that is the outside wash bay. This new concrete pad would go over those pipes but they could easily be tapped for supplies. I like the aluminum trench covers. That would be light enough to handle by oneself so it didn't stay open. If enclosed really no issue. You have any problems with ground water penetration? I installed a well and sump pump in my downdraft air trench but it's never been wet, nor had any water in it. I think I'm just above the water table as the inside wash bay just on the other side of the wall always has water, but the level is below the air trench floor. I've not washed a car back there in many years.
I thought I read several years ago that pits in garages weren't allowed anymore due to the possibilty of someone falling into it. Maybe if it had a suitable cover when not being used is acceptable? Would want to look into it for sure. I seem to recall someone wanted to put one in his shop on a farm.
I think you may be correct. However there are still several in use but now if not in use they are either covered, or a chain barrier is erected if left open. I still see several in use predominantly at the quick lube establishments. They are always open but really not a public space. The entrance, and exit are both cordoned off to unrestricted access.
I think quick lube and mechanics shops can still use them but customers aren't allowed in the shop or have to stay in their vehicles. Quite a few years ago I dug an alignment pit at a Goodyear commercial truck center. It was pretty much 5' wide, the width of my bucket, before being cemented in so probably about 4' wide or a little better when finished. Some pits have a pipe rail about 6" high along the sides on top just so a vehicle can't accidentily drop a wheel in.
1693TA - Getting back to your cribbing and tractor lifting questions and ideas - this brought back the memory of a Cat tractor lift tool puzzle that I picked up some years ago. I bought some items at auction and amongst them was these 4 weird-shaped, fabricated, multiple curved steel blocks. There was no indication from anyone or anything that came with the sale as to what they were. After some searching, I found a Cat part number stamped into one of the blocks. The number is 9S27. Going to my older Cat tool guide, I found this tool listing of a 9S19 "Tractor lift arrangement" - which comprises these 4 steel blocks, plus a wheeled cart to move them around (there was no sign of the cart in the auction items). However, despite a short description in the Tool guide, I have never been able to figure out how this setup was supposed to operate - as the description is quite cryptic, and there are no photos anywhere of the tractor lift arrangement in use. Do you or any other HEF members know anything of this setup and how it actually operates? It might as well be a Chinese puzzle to me, because despite looking at and studying the blocks for some time, I still can't figure out how they were designed to be used?
Here is the Tool guide photo and description of the 9S19 Tractor lift arrangement.
I have never seen anything like them myself but I will be over to Altorfer, (Cat dealer) and show these photos to a guy that's been there eons to glean anything for you. He's another I really enjoy yakking with over older equipment. Kind of a personal tie there too as he's the guy that put the u/c under my Allis when the original owner traded it in on a new Cat back in 1995. This was just before the guy I purchased it from bought it from them.
Ford (in the 9N era) sold devices cradled the axle & you chained them to the wheel. There was a link front to rear as front had no power. Rig them & you lifted the tractor wheels off the ground.
My first pit was correct width for a CJ2A Jeep with 6.00-16 tires. Newer Jeeps had wider tires & did not fit as flawlessly. I painted a stripe along the sides to lean out & see where the tires needed to go. Dad was putting "the white Jeep" in the garage once in a hurry & dropped one front wheel in. Surprisingly little damage!
OK now I am Intreged, how do they work?
I think the hole in them is a clue. Maybe you pull a few track bolts or a pad and use studs that fit the holes to mount them and driving the machine, it rolls up on the curve of the blocks? It looks like when the flat part with the hole is horizontal there is a short section opposite that is parallel that they sit on when in use. They kind of pop into to place. It could also explain why they aren't real common. Not a very big surface area to be sitting on. You'd need a really strong floor so you wouldn't punch holes in it.
The tool description says the blocks have a curved base 12" wide with an 18" radius, which "rolls easily on any concrete floor". So, based on that description, they're designed to roll on their wide curved bottoms - I just can't picture how that would operate. I'm thinking the concave section matches the curve of the track at a front idler or sprocket, and you drive the tractor up onto two blocks, until it's sitting fully on the more pointed top of the blocks. But I can't figure how the tractor would climb onto the second pair of blocks. Do you back up onto the second pair of blocks? - or keep driving forward onto the other pair? And where does the "rolls easily on any concrete floor" come in? That indicates a rolling motion is required to assist in the lifting. The curved bottoms remind me of the local stock crate or grain bin lifting/removal device, that is a local design. It's called a Hobbs Hoist, after the inventor. This device uses a set of varying-radius supports at the four corners of the crate or bin, which are pinned at their tops by sliding two pieces of 75mm (3") pipe through them, and through four larger diameter pipe sections on the crate or bin. Once the four supports are pinned in place, you back up, using the truck headboard as the "push blade", and the varying radius of the supports lifts the crate or bin around 75-150mm (3"-6") - whereby you lock the supports with two rods and chains that tie the tops of the front supports to the bottoms of the rear supports. You're then free to drive off, leaving the crate or bin suspended on the supports. Loading the crate or bin back on simply involves reversing the unloading process. With the Cat 9S19 lifting devices, I found a Cat "lifting/blocking/clamping" publication, which states that the Cat tripod base, tube-style tractor stands, can be used to support a tractor after its been raised by the 9S19 lifting devices - which seems to indicate the tractor can be rolled back and forth on the 9S19 lifting devices, which must have to happen, to allow the tractor to be lowered onto the tube-style stands. I'm thinking the holes in the devices are simply there for the cart to attach to the devices. Possibly projecting pins on the cart, and the blocks are simply lifted onto the pins, to clear the floor? https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10509667 HOBBS HOISTS | Pederick Engineering www.pederickengineering.com.au
I posted this earlier today in the wrong thread. Here it is corrected: I'd meant to update this but have quite a bit moving along with the new year coming and forgot. Fingers are still in a lot of pies but starting to rescind. The pit idea is moving forward. I could do this myself but going to hire a couple of young bucks to do this work. Talked to the taxing body about it and if I don't install a concrete floor, or plumbing and water in the interior of a steel, or wood space frame shell utility shed/building such as I'm wanting, there will be nothing additional for them to tax as considered "non permanent". Basically another "yard barn" as called around here. Posts such as a pole barn uses are still considered "non permanent" but rather "anchors" to keep the structure from blowing away. Thinking I'll build a rectangular box in the ground, (pit) of concrete, then compact and gravel much the same as you would a roadbed around the pit keeping elevation low enough to overlay the gravel with planking. This is just an idea. I would most likely incorporate a rolling "jacking beam" into the design of the pit perimeter. If doing this, the complete interior except the pit floor and walls would fit their vision of a non permanent structure. The pit would be masonry with a steel upper support perimeter for the beam to roll upon. I think the structure about 16' in width, 28' in length with 12' sidewalls, and having a 2/12 pitch roof would be about perfect for fitting my dozer or a semi tractor in for servicing. A personnel walkdoor in a sidewall, and 12' wide coil up door in the endwall with a power operator would be good. No need for a drive through setup with this shed idea. Just pull straight in, back out. I'd insulate the roof to keep the condensation at bay but have to see how much use would be actual before doing anything with the side, and end walls concerning insulation.
It appears the blocks will work with all sizes of machines so the radius won't match every sprocket or idler. I can't see them gripping on a concrete floor by themselves. I can't see how they could be set up to lift a machine in 1 shot. Lifting 1 end up and then reversing direction for the other end makes the most sense unless you lift the front of a machine with the blade and then put the blocks under. Maybe Tctractor knows how they work? They can't have been common.
You don't think those lifting things simply get wedged as a pair each side at the rear, and then the grouser lifts tractor up going in reverse? Then push blade down to lift front? Weird looking things though.
They're 12" wide and machines like pipelayers don't have a front blade to lift them up.
Aaah, well. Intriguing...
The great Caterpillar mystery! Should have a contest to see if anyone can explain how they work. Winner gets bragging rights and everyone else bows to them.
I believe I inquired about it, and promptly all the safety Nazis jumped all over. I still wish we had one, open pit be damned.
As with many things, there's dangers to the unwary and untrained, so you simply ensure you don't leave traps for those who may enter into areas where they're not supposed to go. Pit covers and a fence-style barrier are the simplest ways of ensuring pits are safe, but these must be in place if the pit is left unattended. The other method is an exclusion zone, such as a signposted no-entry area. You cover yourself against most lawsuits with that approach, but young children who don't read signs are the biggest problem, so this is where the covers and a physical barrier come in. Not everyone keeps control over their small children, every minute of the day.
Nope. I've got 2 year old twin boys. It's like herding cats. We don't go anywhere unless it's necessary.
Thats how they get used I’ve used them once a decade ago at school. My shop had a pair of heavy fabricated ramps that we used instead. I don’t like the rockers.
Waiting for the referee's decision
Need some more info before a winner can be decided. Are the holes used when using them? How do you lift the front of a pipelayer up or are they made to only lift one end of the machine or the other?
Best shop I was ever in (that made me go ohhhh!). Had a poured concrete wall and floor, for drivers side tires, and a bridge beam laid on its side for the passenger side. It was a "walk out" on the bridge beam side underneath. It was long enough for a semi and trailer to pull on. If I can ever swing it, this is what I'm doing. which means I'm probably never doing it....
That is a nice setup. Would be great for high volume routine service work for sure.