I (think) I've finally got my three required "test" post in, so I can finally ask some questions! Good thing too, my battery is almost dead on this cell-phone blackberry thingy and this damned rented skidsteer machine has been sitting on my head all week and the rental guy won't answer the damned phone and there's nobody else to call and I'm getting mighty tired of this thing sitting on my head... I think all the blood in my body has drained from my fingers and I can't type much longer -- help! Ok, while I understand the rules, it is rather frustrating to jump through the hoops here. Hope I make the "grade". I am considering another equipment purchase -- probably a skid-steer or compact loader. I've acres of forested land to rehabilitate, it was all heavily logged and left a godawful mess. Stumps, slash and now with a lot of hand stacking, piles of limbs and rotted material. Here are my needs: heavy snows here (winter will see 14 feet) so lots of snow to deal with, many stumps (ground clearance concern) to work around, some hilllside work (stability concern) at times, need to be able to plow the snow, push the brush piles, "grapple" limbs and logs and sticks that have been down on the ground for a long time (if possible), thinking "root rake" or something like that, push in new dirt roads, punch in a zillion post holes (auger) for about a mile of fencing, move tons of dirt from point A to B, maintain the gravel roads, clear a new building site from the forest, level the ground, build a root cellar, remove as many stumps as I can, etc. I've got an excavator (which I've used plenty) and a tractor with loader (also heavily used) and dump bed trailer, but have never owned a skid steer or CTL. My minimal experience with a Gehl rental left me disappointed, tippy (with the attachment I was using) and underpowered on the trenching attachment and I gave up after only 100 ft of digging (far too slow), plus the controls were ridiculously sensitive (for me). Ground here contains a lot of clay and some rocks, where there is topsoil, it's decent, about 3 feet deep I guess. Other areas had the topsoil removed already by a D8. I already built a home there and installed all the water, septic and power lines underground, but needed to be about 4 ft deep and wound up using an excavator for all of this work. I will be building another home in another area soon and will need to repeat all this work again. I also built a pond and a huge french drain system and moved a ton of dirt with the tractor loader and dump bed. I will probably build yet another pond and clear ground for an orchard too (I like dirt work, it's kind of fun). Here are my questions: A CTL seems like the obvious first choice, right? What about ground clearance issues -- is this a problem? What about snow and ice? What (really) works best on heavy ice (over 6" thick), hills and iced over gravel roads? I am not at all concernced about asphalt or cement by the way -- none around here for miles, so steel tracks would never be a problem as far as "damage" or marring -- but durability, traction and working through mud would be a real concern. Will a grapple attachment on a machine actually help me clear the slash off the land? Or am I kidding myself here and need to go hire some slaves? Do I need high-flow hydraulics, considering I will probably buy multiple attachments to drill holes, grind stumps and maybe throw snow or? I read many of the posts here while hanging upside down and learned plenty, but no answers to these questions. I'm not brand conscious, just need a durable, tough machine because I'll use the snot out of it. I've no idea about dealer service in this area -- there is a Gehl dealer, a Cat dealer and probably a few others, but no idea who is any good, fair, honest, reasonable and won't try to sell me a bridge in Manhattan. Yeah -- I should go visit them, but right now I've got an injury and the best I can do is type. I'm reading where CTL's only last 1,000 hours or so before track replacements and undercarriage work is required -- is that really true? If so, then a low-hour used machine would be a priority (I won't buy new, just don't want to deal with the depreciation). This will need to be a year-round machine, so I don't know if I'll be happy with a closed cab machine in summer or an open-cabbed machine in winter! Thoughts? Any thoughts, suggestions, tips, advice and know-how are much appreciated!
For what you want to do, I would recommend a large wheeled machine (2500 lb. or more operating capacity, but not too wide) with solid tires, steel over-the-tire tracks, high-flow, cab, heat, AC, and 2-speed. You'll want a large machine for the ground clearance and the hydraulic performance. Solid tires will help you avoid flats when you're way out in the woods. A wheeled machine with 2-speed will have better traction and speed for your snow-clearing applications, will cost less in the long run, and will travel considerably faster than a CTL, saving you time when traveling across your property. The steel tracks go on and off fairly easily, allowing you to only use them when you really need the extra traction and flotation. The cab, heat, and AC will keep you comfortable, which is important if you're going to be using the machine as much as it sounds like you will be. I would highly recommend a suspension seat as well. High flow may not be totally necessary, but it will allow you to operate the full spectrum of attachments available, including a 4-foot trencher. Hope that helps a bit.
Pretty much ditto. Large frame wheel with OTT steel tracks. Guessing you'd leave them on all summer and off all winter. I think your conditions would be hell on rubber tracks. High flow if a snow blower is on the horizon.
Wheels do better in snow then tracks? I had no idea. I do know my rubber tracked excavator is useless in the snow and ice. Glad I asked -- been eyeballing tracked machines (online auctions). Thank you both for your replies!
Wheels do better than tracks for pushing snow or driving through light, fluffy snow or on ice. Tracks are better if you're aiming to float on top of hard, dense, or wet snow, but I wouldn't recommend trying to drive over snow. I've gotten a track machine stuck when I broke through the crust of a drift and got hung up. You're much better off with a wheel machine moving the snow out of the way instead of trying to go through or over it. On ice, I would recommend studding your tires or using chains.
For all the stuff you listed that you plan on doing it seems to me maybe you need a small dozer out there or a tracked loader... Seems like a lot do do with just a skid steer but that's just my opinion. Not saying it can't be done, just very time consuming!
I don't think a track loader or dozer would travel through the woods very well, at least not without taking out a ton of trees. It also won't run any attachments or plow snow. So it would work really well for about 5% of what he plans on doing, but not at all for the other 95%, for a higher initial investment and much greater cost to maintain. That doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.
Pushing large brush piles, making new roads, moving a bunch of dirt... I guess it all depends on how many acres you have.... He said it has already been logged so there's no need to go around trees unless it was a select cut. I know from around here (northern Alabama) that after land is logged you're not going to do anything with a skid steer other than destroy it. But what to use is a personal preference, and mine would be to rent a dozer to do your roads, clearing all of the dead stuff out of the way, shaping your homesite and moving your dirt, and use your excavator to dig the bigger stumps... Than buy a skid steer for the rest of your needs... Anyone who's worked in the woods should know that it's one of the roughest environments on a machine.
I do not have an professional experience running this type of equipment, nor much exposure to others doing so. I have looked into a dozer several times, but I ran into the issue that DeereMan brings up -- only a small percentage of my workload would require that type of machine. I also looked into the wheeled or tracked loader option, I did have over a thousand yards of material to move and it would have been nice to do this more efficiently. As it was, I labored away with the excavator and dump trailer and loader on the tractor. It's just me here and I've got time if not brains. The forest is heavily logged, but there are still trees of course. The problem is hand-stacking. I'm literally working myself to death on this effort. It crosses my mind several times a day that there must be a better way. The excavator has a hydraulic thumb. But it does tear the hell out of the ground maneuvering this thing around (rubber tracks too). Once the land is cleaned up, I do have to burn all the piles I've made, pushing them together again and again until they're gone. Then on to all those other projects I listed. I was advised to buy the skid-steer before buying the tractor, but the ground clearance issue scared me away, I was constantly driving over stumps that would have never cleared the 'steer. The building site is now completely cleared of these and is fairly flat and level and a skid steer here will work fine. But I really do want to take it out into the woods and help with the cleanup -- which is why I'm thinking grapple or some kind of root rake. Nobody responded yet on those questions by the way -- do they work for pickup up limbs and slash and stuff that has been down in the weeds and overgrowth for ten years? I wish I had experience in the woods with one of these before I take the plunge on the purchase. I'm sure the dealers would love to let me try one out -- but they'd also be expecting a sale, and it is unlikely I will buy from a dealer in reality, so I'm just not willing to be dishonest about that.
They will work great for brush clearing--just make sure to shop around and find the grapple you think will work best for you. There are many styles and manufacturers out there.
there are so many attachments out there for the skid steer... attachments to suit almost anything imaginable.. just look at a bunch of them, as some of them are built with poor quality compared to others... i did not mean earlier that you could not do all that with a skid steer and now that i understand it is a personal project and you have the time, good luck
I been running Skids for coupla years here doing the type of work you talking about Aardvark1. Ive been logging my own acres to build my house and also do portable milling/logging on others property. I find the bigger SS with over the tyre Grouser tracks work a treat in most situations.They will rip up loose dirt like a rotary hoe or cheese grater. Mind you, dozers got the pwr and weight to rough in roads and rip out big stumps. But larger SS can lift and push with much more efficiency and finesse. I made my own log grab from SS fork tine attach and an arm which closes...works great for logs and also pallets.Use a 4 in 1 bucket to grab and rip scrub etc.....good luck choosin
I admit I'm a little confused on the tires .vs. (rubber) tracks advice here. Mostly because I watched a bunch of videos online of guys doing stuff with rubber tracks in conditions like I've got. Snow, mud, woods, etc. I also read as much as I could find on undercarriage wear and tear, and replacement costs. I have gravel roads, but that's all for any "rocks", and I don't do anything on the gravel roads except drive up and down it. The rest is all dirt with almost no rocks, although there are plenty of sticks around. The stumps I hope to grind down. Most of my work will be in the dirt, expanding the pond, working in a large garden area / orchard area and of course the six-months of snow we get here in a bad winter. During that time, it'll be a snow removal machine on those gravel roads, but they'll ice over and I figure I'll be mostly driving on a lot of ice. My concern on tires (without over the tire tracks) is getting any traction off-road (most important concern), and the sheer "bumpiness" of how they perform and beat the driver up. My "one experience" in the rental machine showed me just how terribly tippy they were on even a small bump. Nobody weighed in here in favor of rubber tracks .vs. tires. I assume there is a reason? Anybody know what the travel speed limitations are (if any) on over-the-tire steel tracks? What about a Loegering setup -- buy a wheeled machine and switch this out to a tracked machine for the added traction off-road?
Hmmmm, sounds like you been taking it all in. I have not run rubber tracked mach's so i cannot say alot for them but i do kno that having the extra 1/2 t of steel down low OTT 's is great for hill climbs and general stability.Also takes that "bumpiness" outta the ride.As for traction, chalk n cheese. I live in an area that gets up to 2m(6ft) of rain per year and we got deep alluvial soils(rainforest basically) and i can work SS apart from ripping up the place......but i hear thats what rubber tracks are good for....keeping the grass neat.
Don't get me wrong, CTLs can work in snow, just not nearly as well or as fast as a wheeled machine. They are also awesome in mud. They will not work on ice AT ALL. I know conventional wisdom is that the more surface area you put on the ground, the more traction you have. This is not true unless you are in conditions that require flotation. Even then you don't improve traction by the definition of the word. You need ground pressure to have traction on a hard surface. You know how people put weight in the back of their pickups in winter to improve traction in slippery conditions? Going from tracks to tires has the same effect - increased ground pressure by concentrating weight over a small area. This doesn't work in mud because you'll sink and bottom out. It does work for snow removal because you're pushing snow out of the way, not traveling over top of it, so flotation is not an issue. The cost of upkeep for a CTL will be less for you than for guys on rocks or asphalt, but the same applies to a tire machine. The increase in cost is relative to a wheeled machine working in the same conditions. A big concern is that will you hit a stump, rock, etc. and shell a track out in the middle of your property which would probably end up costing you a lot of money for a service call. By running solid tires with steel OTTs, you would never have to worry about shelling a track or having a flat tire, leaving you immobile out in the woods. As far as being bumpy/tippy, a Gehl is not representative of every machine on the market. If stability is a chief concern, I would recommend that you try a Deere, New Holland, or Case. They typically have longer wheelbases and more even weight distribution, significantly reducing the tendency to buck or wheelie on uneven or steep terrain. Steel OTTs will also help no matter what brand you're using. Steel OTTs will limit your top speed simply because the ride will become rough if you try to go too fast. You will still probably be able to go faster than with a CTL. The gain in speed will be greater with the tracks off. Speed is more important for snow removal than other tasks, which is when you will need to have the tracks off anyway. I would steer clear of the Loegering VTS. It is hard on the drivetrain and presents many of the problems that you would encounter with a CTL. It also costs just as much initially and to maintain. You would have better luck just buying a CTL than VTS.
Thank you for the voice of reason. My excavator is rubber tracked and is absolutely useless in the snow and ice. I simply park it until the ground can be seen again. I had read a little on the OTT setups being used by some posters here. Seems like the biggest complaint was the tracks would fall off. Any thoughts on this concern?
It can happen. If you keep your track tensioned properly it's less of a concern. The advantage is that losing a track doesn't mean you're totally immobile.
Well I owned a Bobcat 753G that had McLaren steel OTT. They were great for moving dirt, flotation in mud, and increasing stability. The only thing that I found was not so great, was that the added height made grading a bit more difficult because you can't lower the heel of the bucket down far enough so you end up angling the blade downward, and then it digs in easier. Granted I was a real SS noob at the time so my experiences may be skewed. I have used the Deere 322 CTL quite a bit in everything but snow. I can say that machine has great stability, floats well, and has gobs of power. The cab is kind of cramped mind you. I rent it as needed on jobs and the word from the rental shop is that it has been very reliable with no maintenance required on the undercarriage. I will say that the style of tracks that you choose makes a huge difference. The standard 'pad' style tracks are great at not chewing up laws (especially when they're worn down) but they don't bite nearly as well as the more aggressive ridged ones like this http://www.mclarenusa.com/nextgen-tdf/nextgen-tdf-series-track-loader-rubber-tracks.html
You're definitely right about the track style making a difference on a CTL, although even the McLarens will not do as well in snow as a wheeled machine. I just think that for Aardvark's wide variety of projects the most versatile machine available will suit him best, which in this case is a wheeled skid steer with OTTs. Deere makes a bucket offset adapter to alleviate the bucket height problem you mentioned. I'm sure other manufacturers have a similar kit.
Where were you back then?!!