Hello I have heard the proper way to increase HP with a PT pump on a 855 or N14 is change the gear size on end I have a NTA 855 1204 CPL factory was 335 hp to get to 500hp change out the gear pump from 3/4" to 1"? They also make a 1 1/4" gear pump maybe thats better? Does the size 3/4", 1",1 1/4" inch mean the size of the gears so larger 2 gears meshing maskes more flow and psi? This is a stationary pump application
Not to be brash---But I won't touch this one with a ten foot pole.
LOL Why? I heard this from a reputable PT pump builder
Compression ratio, cam and cam timing, injector flow and turbo just to name a few.
500 HP for how long?
Are you trying to say that something more than just putting a bigger gear pump would be needed to increase the horse power 50% of this Cummins? Not to mention that if this is a stationary engine. It may be expected to run at this elevated output for hours at a time unattended would be much different that of a truck engine that might only be expected to put out that much for a short time when accelerating from a stop. That also might have an operator sitting there watching the pyrometer climbing and possible have the brains to back off before the exhaust system is aluminized internally!
I don't think any 855's made over 500hp (factory) until late N-14 with celect plus? Surely the idea that a simple PT pump setting, is going to take you from 335 to over 500hp, doesn't seem possible, or realistic? Especially not in a presumably necessary stationary application? I don't know much- but I know none of that makes sense.
Well i gave the shop my CPL 1204 he said bigger gear pump all it needs, he said its good for 600 hp before you start needing mods to keep it cool. I asked if it needed a turbo mod he said no. Perhaps certain builds are detuned to spec and can handle higher HP.
Not sure I have a N14 similar pump application stock 475 HP
Well, if you change the size of the drive gear on the pump, you definitely have to change the gear it mates to, or change where the pump mounts to get the shafts farther apart. Just for the record, I am skeptical of this for all the other reasons too. I think your guy was talking through his hat.
This pump a high pressure water blaster 20,000 psi was ordered to a specific flow back in the day 23 gpm that would be the 335hp. Pump is the same for higher flow just used a higher HP motor to enable higher rpm of pump say to 26 gpm at 20k which would be a 350 HP motor. Detune the motor to 335 hp only way to get that spec 23 gpm around 320 rpm vs 380 rpm higher flow 26 gpm and more hp to get it there
The pumps have identical housing and shaft different internal size
You would also have to change the water pump gearing, because your crankshaft RPMs wouldn't automatically change, a higher hp engine would just be capable of turning the pump faster at the same pressure.
What I am doing is taking the old Gardner Denver TF450 water blast pump off. It's a 350 HP pump 26 gpm max 20k output. I am replacing it with a aqua dyne 500 hp triplex pump. It needs 500 hp to produce 20k water pressure and 43gpm The PTO output and rpm will be the same but need that 500 hp to spin that pump to 320 rpm same as old pump but much larger plungers. That 335HP stock power will only be able to run that aqua dyne pump to maybe 210 rpm and same flow 25 gpm
So what I am unclear of are the different spec pumps 3/4", 1", 1 1/4" have longer pump gears for more flow and higher psi ? The builder said I have a 3/4" pump on mine. I asked about the other mods they do throttle pressure screw and button mod he said they don't work as well as changing the pump gear.
That's not how Cummins builds engines. Run the list of CPL's below and note injector #'s, Cam codes and piston changes. https://dai.com.au/docs/855-CPL-mat...QY6WO6AjpjCyHp_ncWb6YfV_E10DTG2nWyTJkJKP8jEvw
Ok
Ok, I was working with 2 misconceptions, I for some reason assumed you wanted to drive the same blasting pump harder, a bigger pump makes sense. The other, I got stuck on this paragraph: "I have heard the proper way to increase HP with a PT pump on a 855 or N14 is change the gear size on end" and I thought you meant the pump drive gear which definitely won't work. I am still sure that just changing the gear pump also won't work for industrial use. If it would, that's the way it would commonly be done. It would give you the capability to move more fuel, but to get it into the cylinders, you would have to have bigger injectors, just like your blaster won't move 43 gpm at 20k psi through the same nozzle it is using now. Once you get the extra fuel into the cylinders, the only thing it would produce is black smoke without getting more air in, thus, different turbo. To get that turbo's air into, and out of, the cylinders at the same RPM, the valves have to stay open longer, thus different cam. This sounds a lot more like some youtuber's plan to get more power and smoke for a few minutes at a time for a show toy.
This is a pretty good explanation of the PT (Pressure-Time) fuel system.
With that guy saying you could get 500 HP without changing the turbo or injectors is a big red flag. To run that triplex you need a new engine unless the pressure or gpm will be less that you said. Are you running this off a pto? This needs to be direct driven off a transmission.
Ok he's actually a highly recommended PT pump rebuilder on this forum. I know it's a huge jump in Hp just adding more psi and fuel. I would like to try his method but don't want to waste my time if it's not gonna work just better off finding a 525 HP spec motor. i do know there are quite a few larger older pumps with a NTA 855 and 475 HP and 350KW gensets with 525HP 855s.
They call it a PTO its basically a big clutch with a handle you engage and disengage to run the pump. No transmission on this unit just direct drive to output shaft then big drive belt to very large say 40" pulley on pump output shaft.
Yes have seen that
Cummins built a wide variety of higher horse power industrial engines, but 90% of those use a PT pump with a built in load governor besides the variable speed governor. The only pump shop mentioned on here that I now of is Premco in Texas. I have read all sorts of reports, some negative some positive. But in all seriousness-I've spent years rebuilding 855's there is only so much the 855 will take. The only way to properly gain the horse power you need is by doing a OEM rerate and have it live.
Ok wasn't Premco
You can get the 1" pumps direct fairly cheap maybe $150 same place this ebay guy prob gets his. Would be interesting to put a gauge to check fuel pressure before and after adding a larger pump what difference it may make. Also check boost psi. I have a FLIR camera cheap that works good to monitor exhaust manifold temps as well if they get too hot with simply adding more fuel pressure Also adding an additional fuel line to the front of the head adds 15 to 20 hp on its own also would help the higher fuel pressure make more power.
Yes the proper way is probably a re rate simply adding more fuel and pressure it's gonna run rough till warm and roll coal. It may make 500hp but won't be a nice smooth engine will be like the older 5.9 Ram Cummins where they use a 0 plate get instantly high egts running hard under load and lots of soot.
Good luck. But I certainly know I wouldn't be taking as gospel the idea of one builder. Maybe it'll be fine, maybe it won't. How much poo will you be in if it lays down and you have to swap in another? If that doesn't matter, then I guess we'll all learn something new. Be sure to update how it works out.
For the larger gear pump part $150 it's worth a shot. Don't have any way to dyno it but can get a rpm infra red tool to check rpm of the 500 hp pump pulley max speed before and after. I can monitor EGT temps with FLIR camera also if they get too hot. Gonna take a while to get everything together but I will report back results.
FWIW raising fuel and pressure on Cummins motors with mechanical pumps for big HP gains is quite common. A example is the P pump Cummins 5.9 on a Ram which I have done myself on a old Ram Cummins I had. This is why they are such a popular truck to modify. A simple plate change in the P pump and boost mod increasing boost under $100 you can make that motor go from 250HP to 400 HP and more. No changes to motor but you need a pyro to monitor EGT temps as they can get high under heavy load say towing up a hill. The fix for that is a bigger turbo which helps lower EGTs. You can get more HP with the mod changing injector tips. But it's not just free HP doing the mod on the 5.9 like having a modern 6.7 with 400 HP, they will smoke more and you gotta watch the EGTs under load why they add pyro gauges after. So it's perfectly reasonable to expect a big gain in a Big Cam 3 or N14 with added fuel pressure and fuel but again it's not free HP their are added risks.
What is the service of your pump? If your pushing high pressure and volume all the time that is the same as towing on a hill with a pickup. Are you changing volume when you pump, if so you will not be in the power band of the engine or will need a bypass valve on the pump.
Like a genset steady RPM under load around 1900 rpm. But it's a constant load once it gets to 1900 rpm. Unlike say a variable load going flat in a truck towing then up a hill requiring more throttle. That's true potential high EGTs under constant load. Something to watch for.
Both pumps operate at the same rpm from the engine. 1900 rpm off output shaft on motor to a drive belt large pulley that drives the pumps to a max of 520 rpm The larger pump will need more HP 500 to get it to the max flow and rpm of it. With the stock 335 HP the pump would prob only make it to 275 rpm that's it.
So the service of the pump is one rpm, but what is the load? Full pressure and volume?
The old TF450 Gardner Denver pump is rated 350 HP 20,000 psi and 26 gpm At that pressure and volume the pump is rotating around 500 rpm engine 1900. This unit was rated 23 gpm 20k with its 335 HP the RPM is not published at that volume I can only assume prob 440 This new used pump is a aqua dyne c500 rated at 500hp 43 gpm and 20,000 psi. It's got a different size pulley on it I think it only runs around 320 rpm. It needs all that 500 hp to get to 320 rpm 43 gpm 20,000 psi. I am running hydro demolition robotic crawlers that blast away unsound concrete leave the rebar clean. The higher volume at 20k psi with the bigger pump increases production by 2/3 times. The high pressure pump manufacturers don't really publish much more detail than pressure and volume and approximate HP ratings for the pumps it's trade secrets.
Dude you are going to roast that poor Cummins with that load. Everything in that engine and cooling system is set up probably for no more than max 400 HP and your going to expect it to do 500 hp load all day every day. I don't think to even expect that out of a 500 HP engine. This is not 500hp in a truck with a peak load up a hill, this is a constant 500hp load with constant 500 HP heat. Find a 525+ hp engine in a wrecked truck, cut the frame and take everything so you get a bigger radiator etc. Then you should have something that will last. Irc N14"s have block fretting issues with high HP, that might follow with it's predecessors.
There are lots of 525 HP stationary NTA 855s used on 350KW Gen sets. All have the same size radiators the stationary units very large. It's possible the timing is different on the 525 HP NTA 855s. There is a huge difference when the motor is under heavy load such as towing heavy up a hill with your foot to the floor. It may make it but will probably grenade the pistons with high EGTs. Under a constant flat load once it gets there the motor just has to maintain that load and rpm. Very different from putting your foot down to the floor in a truck going up a hill towing heavy. That's when my EGTs in my 0 plate 450 hp 5.9 would skyrocket and I would need to down shift to lower gear. I am gonna try it see what happens. If it gets very high EGTs I'll go to a bigger turbo to cool them. If that doesn't work I'll find a 525 HP motor.
With my 0 plate modded 5.9 Cummins 3500 prob 450 hp vs 250 hp stock the truck had a heavy steel bed and a 2500lb Hiab knuckle boom crane in it. Before I did the 0 plate I would be able to go 35mph up this steep long hill at the max after the mod I could go 70mph up the same hill. When towing the EGTs would rise until up to highway speeds then cool way down after. Up steep hills they would jump up and I would need to go to a lower gear that would lower EGTS. My next step was to get a bigger turbo more air to cool the EGTs but got a 6.7 5500 Cummins boom truck instead.
If you put a 500 HP load on a 500 HP engine it will be full throttle the same as your foot is to the floor, in a matter of fact depending on your output lines you might not be able to even get to 1800 rpm without an unloader or a bypass valve. Also how many belts are on your PTO, you might not have enough.
The belt is one big ribbed cog belt about 5" wide on both pumps. The NLB with 475hp has the multiple single belts. This aqua dyne pump which I haven't even got yet in Texas will be shipped has the same cog type pulley You may be right but for $150 to get me 500hp it's worth a shot Vs trying to get a deal on a 525hp N14 pulling it off a genset or whatever and the installation. The blue pump is the 500HP aqua dyne
Man that thing is teeny compaired to what I was thinking lol, must be the high pressure that got me off.
In comparison to a 2000 hp fracking pump they are small lol but these pumps weigh about 4000 lbs each I wouldn't exactly call them tiny. Even the TF450 at 26gpm 20k is a larger size pump in the high pressure water blast industry most are 200hp to 300 hp max. The 500hp pump 43gpm 20k is relatively rare it's a big pump the max they go is 1000hp in this industry. Using hydro demolition and 43 gpm 550hp of water coming out of a single nozzle is a lot of power how it quickly destroys bad concrete.
There's a lot of 500-600 HP triplexs around here for acid and cement work, not sure on max pressure around 5,000 - 10,000 psi but 10 bbl/min. They are around twice the size with 3 1/2-5" plungers
They loading up the pump here gives you idea of size.
Ok yeah probably high volume low pressure type pump Yeah u not gonna get 10,000 psi at 500 gallons a minute with 500 hp maybe 80 gpm at 10k 500 hp. Those prob 1000 to 2000 psi.
The 3 1/2 plungers can do 8000 psi for 600 HP. Ofm 600 is a common unit around here Your is probably 80% physical size of what I was thinking, that last pic helps a lot. Those small plungers definitely keeps the size down
Yeah some pumps are bigger the NLB 20425 I have also with N14 475hp is a bit bigger it's a Union power end but only does 34 gpm 20k. This aqua dyne was used on 2 jobs back early 2000s in the gulf to cut the support pylons off a damaged oil rig for demolition EPA jobs has 50hrs on it they bought it new. Can imagine what they made on that job to use this pump once. They dissolved the company after that and a scrapper ended up with the pump. He just wanted the Detroit 8V92 off it 2 stroke V8 off it trying to sell it for $10.5k. Who can use a smoky loud 2 stroke Detroit in the States lol ? He would have gotten much more keeping everything together one piece
Here's the old messy 525hp Detroit 2 stroke. He said guys still run those 2 strokes in Louisiana.
I just took off a 671 off my rig in June. There's lots of 6 and 8 71-92s around here. They are junk but still make money. Good luck to him trying to sell that engine. That engine can't do that power without that radiator and can't do it in a truck mount either so it would have to go back to a Genny or a pump or need to resize injectors or turbo. Oil Field has some weird decisions man.
Have you verified pulley size on that pump? That Detroit was prob running at 2100-2300 when turning that pump. You'd better measure the pulley on your Cummins and figure out if this is going to work. Maybe you have?
I'm with these other guys, however. Chances are respectable that there are iron parts capable of 435, ***maybe*** 460 in your current 335, but I would never believe that engine will withstand 500+ hp in a stationary application long-term. No way. You will end up cooking it, even with CAC, if you even have that. FWIW, a bigger turbo is not going to save you. It might prolong the inevitable, but that's it. That engine will not have the timing or compression to handle that fuel.
Ok no I haven't I'll need to check that good point.
Adding Gear displacement in a Cummins PT pump will gain you nothing but wasted fuel(Coal Rolling), a HIGH heat producer and eventually washed out cylinders from over fueling at off time and under bad performance delivery. If all you want is noise and smoke will get it. Want HP dependable and consistent have to go the WHOLE Nine Yards as noted, Injector Flow rates, PT Pump bench set, Cam timing and CORRECT Pistons for raise of Power Curve. Otherwise you get a Black smoking Grenade. Playing I know what needs done with the Old Hands that have dealt with these engines for over four decades on here will get you ignored.
The added stress to the camshaft injector lobe increases the same rate as percentage of over fuel. The rail pressure with a 1 or 1 1/4 pump gear will climb drastically. The CC rate of injector orifice has to be increased to drop the rail pressure-it's key to getting one to live without eating the cam.
According to CPL 1204 it's 14:5 to 1 compression and a I code cam
and CORRECT Pistons for raise of Power Curve. Otherwise you get a Black smoking Grenade. Playing I know what needs done with the Old Hands that have dealt withthese engines for over four decades on here will get you ignored.[/QUOTE] I am going by what a highly recommended PT pump builder from this forum told me. He said a changing the pump pressure will get me there. I am going by the advice of a recommended PT pump builder here not saying I know better. I know how changing fuel pressure made a huge difference with my 5.9 Cummins in hp so to simply state it's gonna just smoke and wash out the cylinders by increasing fuel pressure doesn't add up. it's all over the internet YouTube changing the fuel button, fuel pressure adding another fuel line to front head makes a big power increase with the Big Cam and N14s. So fuel pressure mods make a difference whether this motor can handle that big time of a increase is a different story to 500hp. There may be bad side effects as noted by others here not changing injectors and cam timing etc. It's not as if it's a permanent change adding a bigger pump. It will be obvious if it doesn't produce a good result right away high EGTs, smoking, missing etc. This isn't my first rodeo working on a Diesel engine. I am asking advice no reason to get snarky.
As noted prior, someone is blowing smoke out their hat for some reason. Don't trust us, we do not know squat or ever worked on Frankenmotors before.
Lol I like to hear all opinions and if I was told wrong let's hear it. I really don't want to waste my time if it's futile better off searching for a 525 HP 855 or N14 they are out there for decent deals sometimes.
Very possibly true because all they would do is change my pump gear clean the pump and charge me $600, it's not as if they are also working on the motor so the end result is a 500HP reliable motor it's just the PT pump. maybe telling me what I wanted to hear not reality.
To compare raising fuel pressure on a B-series to raising pressure in a PT system is ludicrous, and ridiculous. T.S. gave you a perfectly good explanation on what will happen.
Yes and that's the info I was looking for.
You also need to consider the belt efficiency, it should be 95-98% but if you need 500 HP pump, you will need 515-525 hp engine.
Ok that makes sense as it had that 525 HP 2 Stroke 8V92 in it.