D6N, serial ALY01509. Shut it off for an hour today, went to start and literally nothing, can't hear the starter solenoid shift. Put voltmeter on starter, 25.3 V. Turn key, voltage drops only slightly to 24.9. Bypassed solenoid, nothing. Voltage while bypassing solenoid same as when using key. When you twist the key to start, the solenoid does energize the starter, even though you can't hear it click. I've never had a starter die this abruptly before. Now for the fun part. This starter has 10 mm, 12 point bolts. I cannot figure out what in the everloving XXXX they intend you to use to remove them. I can get a 3/8 drive socket on the bolts, but no way to get an extension into it. I've never seen one, do they make 12 point wobble sockets? This will be the ugliest starter job I've ever had.
Have you tried smacking it with a hammer a few times?
It does sound like the starter motor itself has failed. I took a 3/8 short extension and ground it into a severe wobble extension to get on those bolts. The wobble extensions you buy don’t have enough wobble.
A set of these should get into that lousy design spot. If you reckon the D6N starter is bad, you should try getting a 931B traxcavator starter out, and back in! Williams BU-1212 3/8 Drive Universal Socket, 12 Point, 3/8-Inch : Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement Williams BU-1212 3/8 Drive Universal Socket, 12 Point, 3/8-Inch : Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement www.amazon.com.au
I can see this turning into “worst starter you’ve ever changed” thread. Nearest in my memory is a Cat 336F RKB prefix, with no option to remove the counterweight.
D11N…..there’s 2, the bolts are STUPID tight and those buggers are heavy! You’d think there would be lots of room…..nope
Twin electric starters on large Cat off-highway trucks were always a pain if the upper one had to be changed. I can't for the life of me understand why any customer would choose electric start (a $$$$ option BTW) on any machine equipped with an air system when they could have a TDI turbostart. I think the model we had weighed 16 kilos and replaced two 50MT electric starters.
Yea D11s are terrible, electric start on a large off highway….That’s crazy. We had air start on all of the ones we had.
Generally so did we, untill Head Office got their hands on doing the specs. It lasted until the first PCR when they were switched back to air starters.
Yes. Enough I think I cracked the housing a little.
I think all the starters in a dozer are way to tight, even my D3 was a real pain. Used a boxed end wrench, 1/2 one notch, flip wrench other 1/2. Once removed I replaced with smaller frame planetary starter, much lighter and easier to get to bolts
The issue with the newer (F series) Cat mining trucks is that the brakes are now fully hydraulic. The air system is only used for the air starter (and horn). Going to the electric start option reduces the parts count by a lot.
Do you have to drop the belly pan to get at the bottom bolt? I can't get my hand underneath.....
I think the pan can stay . You will need some more normal wobble extensions to get out past the end of the starter. Just the first wobbler has to be a 3 inch and needs to be ground down to wobble more. I have used that modified wobble on lots of these small bolt starters and it still holds up to torquing with an 18 inch long 3/8 ratchet.
Might want to do voltage drop test on power and ground.
Did already. 25.3 V static, when key switch is turned, or solenoid bypassed, voltage only drops to 24.9. This is the same whether you hold the ground for the meter on the starter ground stud, or the frame. I guess I didn't check voltage drop from the starter ground stud back to the batteries, or the ground cable from the batteries, but I don't believe I have a power issue.
Got it swapped out today. After pulling the rest of the sheet metal off the side, it wasn't that bad of a job. I do have a severely modified 3/8" extension now. Also, my M18 extended rachet definitely made the job much easier. Old starter was seized tight. Did not know that this machine has a wet flywheel housing. Of course, parts guy at Cat did not send a new gasket with so I had to salvage the old one. *** is up with that? Why doesn't the parts book list required things like this? It's happened before when I have picked up a thermostat. If you don't specifically ask for a thermostat gasket, you don't get one.
The 3K3257 gasket Ref #3 is shown on the parts illustration for your tractor. The same P/N of starter motor might well be used on dry flywheel housings where it doesn't require a gasket so automatically supplying one with the motor is not logical. Should be up to the customer to ask for it IMO.
When I priced out an oil pressure gauge from Cat for $92.00 it didn't come with the rubber gasket that fits around it to go in the dash. The gasket was an extra $3.00. I went and got an after market gauge. It's not as accurate as it reads max. But it at least shows me I have oil pressure. I know the oil pressure was good from the old gauge but the gauge was leaking from the front and there was a stream of oil that ran down the backside of the firewall. Very odd. It would be good if the parts manual or microfiche had a comment mentioning a gasket may be required. Especially with a difficult to remove starter a gasket could easily be missed. I can attest to a 931B Nippondenso starter being a pain. It takes 2 people and you have to take the belly pan off. The bolt on the side is PIA. I think I got it with a stubby wrench. The shop that did the engine suggested a 12 point bolt.
So, was just going through some paperwork tonight, and realized my dealer only credited me half of the $780 core charge for the replacement starter. Apparently, it was labeled non-rotating. Two things. First, a $780 core charge? Anyone know if this is a Caterpillar thing, or is my dealer just greedy? Second, if I'd have known the geedy a$$holes were going to stiff me, I'd have spun the bolts out of the nose, and busted it loose. Lesson learned I guess.
Nope, it's a Cat thing. They can hit you with a partial or even zero credit for the smallest issue. If it's your first time, call and ask them what the core return criteria are for your particular part.
Little late now I imagine. But I'm guessing you are suggesting that in the future, anytime I have a core to return, ask ahead.
Yes that's right. But a word from the wise. If you find an issue that may invalidate your core, try to fix it, but don't try too hard. They have staff dedicated to inspecting them and they are clued-in to all the old tricks. As with everything in life, honesty is the best policy (but also hard-and-fast rules sometimes need tempering with a little common sense)
$780 core charge, what is so special about a D6N starter? Seems like you should almost be able to buy a complete starter for the core charge or less. Is Cat following Ritchie Bros. lead on charging as much as they can get away with?
You're paying for the privilege of going up to the parts counter with nothing more than the machine serial number and walking away with a part that you know is going to fit first time with a warranty.
I could be wrong, but Delco and Denso make starters. I've never seen a CAT made starter.
True, but can you’ll walk into a Delco/Denso shop and buy a starter based solely on the machine Serial Number.?
And look at this. The Cat part number for the starter is 207-1519. Plug that in to our local NAPA and it comes back with; But look closer. The ground terminals are different. So now you have to start fannying around modifying the ground cables. If it's a hobby machine then all well and good, but if not, time is money. And then the next time the motor fails and someone comes along with the correct OEM motor, it may not fit the modified cables.
Virtually all the aftermarket starters I've encountered are pretty good - even the Chinese ones. I got a Chinese starter for my 931B directly out of China, it had the correct Cat P/No on it, and it was a perfect copy of the Denso original - and it fitted like a glove. I found it via a search using the Cat P/No. Nearly all the aftermarket starter manufacturers supply a wide range of cross-reference P/No's. There's some massive markups in electrical items, and Cat take the cake for simply putting the most markup on this stuff - and usually on a product from a factory that's not even owned by them. The Cat dealer price here in Oz is currently AU$1962.66 for this 3E1865 starter. All the aftermarket starters supplied by local auto electrical suppliers here, either come from China or Taiwan. Their prices range from AU$1000 to AU$1300 for this same starter. I got it direct from the Chinese for just over AU$500. As a matter of interest, this particular Chinese factory punches out 4000 new industrial-size starters a week. I'll wager it's only one of hundreds of similar factories.
I guess if you needed a new starter right away you might have to go to Cat but what if the starter isn't in stock? Good auto electric shops might be able to match it up or even fix it without needing to replace it. Would be cheaper to pay a shop a couple hundred $$ extra to do a rush job on the starter than what Cat wants for a core charge.
If you need it now, and they have it, that's one thing. There's more options if you're willing to wait a few days. That 37MT is probably replaced with a gear reduction 39MT that will spin the engine faster on fewer amps and weigh half as much as the 37MT. Or a chinese copy of the 39MT, but I'd sure wait for the genuine one if you can find it. There are lots of variations, and you might have to change the clocking on the new Delco, Cat probably saves you that also.
As with any business decision, it's about minimising the cost. If a machine down is costing you $10,000 per hour, you wouldn't hesitate to buy the quickest solution.
I wonder if you weren't in a hurry but wanted to have a spare starter just in case if you could wave the core charge?
I'm not sure if you understand how the core charge works. If you buy a reman part from a Cat dealer, you get two separate charges on the invoice. First for the part, say, $1000. Then for the core charge, say, $500. So you pay $1500 over the counter. Later, you return your old part (core). If it meets the core refund criteria, you get returned to you $500. If it doesn't meet the core refund criteria, you get a percentage of the $500 or maybe even zero, depending on the state of the core. It's up to you whether or not you take the core back for a refund. If you don't take it back, it's yours to keep.
You can buy new OEM, superceded OEM like the 39MT, or aftermarket chinese copies of either like Ozdozer mentioned. None of those will include a core charge, but they won't be stocked at your local cat dealer or napa. Napa might get it the next day, or wait on the mail.
I understand a core charge. I was thinking of a brand new starter that a company would buy just to have on hand incase it was needed. Something that wasn't needed right away or even in the next month or longer. Ordered and picked up whenever it got there. With Cat though it might not be any less than a rebuilt with a core charge.
To clarify - Reman Price + Core Charge = New Price. That’s the way it’s always worked and always will. So if a customer doesn’t return his Core then in cost terms he’s effectively bought a new part.
Most large operators keep some commonly-required components such as new starters on hand, but the expenditure needs to be justified (as in major downtime losses if the individual machine stops), otherwise they simply rely of fast new parts supply from their dealer. Cat have built their business on supplying as many parts as possible in the shortest time frame for their equipment, and it works for them. The bottom line is how much you're losing when a machine goes down. If it's a critical machine, with other equipment reliant on it, you lose a lot of money when it stops. Excavators filling multiple trucks are an example of this - but the largest percentage of machines can go down for a day or so, without major losses.
I guess if you don't need it right away it could be quite a bit cheaper to have an auto electric shop rebuild/repair the existing starter. Finning here wanted $1200 for a new water pump for a 3204. It was much cheaper if you had a core but the water pump had been changed previously with an aftermarket. When Finning was trying to break the union here several years ago their parts support went really downhill. Then went from next day if ordered by the deadline (I think it was 2pm) to we can't really tell you if it will be 3 or 4 days or longer. Their largest customer was losing 10's of thousands of $$$$ daily waiting on a piston and rings for a generator engine at one of their quarries. Apparently Finning compensated them for the unusually long delays. They didn't break the union and thankfully got everything sorted out.
I've seen very little rebuilding of starters and water pumps for many years - unless it was a really big item. It's cheaper and faster to simply buy a complete new unit, you get all-new components, not components that have been rebuilt 3 times previously. In the case of starters, you also get to choose whether you go with new technology such as planetary gear reduction starters. PGR starters have some benefits, especially as regards weight saving, and a reduction in current draw, especially in cold weather. I got a new water pump out of Hong Kong for US$100 with free delivery, I don't see anything major wrong with the quality, maybe the Chinese bearings are not as good as Western-manufactured bearings, but water pumps leak and corrode more than suffer from bearing wear. Plus, it's easy enough to replace, if it ever fails.
I've had the ND starter in my 931B rebuilt for $300 or so. One equipment shop was saying I should change it to an AC Delco but the starter shop said the ND is actually a heavier duty starter and to save the $700 cost of replacing it.