Received a E1267-1 Code "Hyd Filter Restriction" Further investigation while pulling a sample to send off to Cat lab, a mossy green hydraulic oil. Viscosity feels normal, no evidence of water intrusion. Send sample off to lab today. Anyone experience this exact problem?
Don't be surprised is the SOS Lab tells you they can't analyze that sample. If they can ask them to check for coolant. I assume that the radiator has green coolant in it.? Does the hydraulic tank cap have a lock on it.? Is oil the level correct.? You have to consider the possibility of nefarious behaviour. Did you cut the old hydraulic filter apart to check for particles in the media.? I know this VIDEO is of an engine oil filter but the procedure is the same. If the oil wasn't changed then you ought to consider it, and probably more than once because simply emptying the hydraulic tank won't get all the oil out of the system. Post a machine Serial Number so that we can have a look at how the cooling system interacts with the hydraulics.
Thanks Nige. The serial # PER00914, Coolant is a pink tint, Oil level is correct, Tank cap doesn't have a lock - on a private ranch no possibility of nefarious behavior), did not cut open filters after changing when code popped up, we bought it new in 2015, only has 414 hours,
Has you ever seen the oil that colour before.? When was it last changed.? Sorry I focused on the "Hyd Filter Restriction". The transmission oil will definitely have an oil-to-water cooler in the system but that doesn't explain green oil when the cooling system has pink coolant in it.
Never seen that colour before. With only 414 hours, never been changed beyond dealar changing after break-in
Thinking a microbial growth, but not sure if lab will pick that up.
I bought some tractor fluid once that had a green tinge. Maybe the oil was greenish to begin with?
Started out as a bright amber...
Thanks. I'm not sure what would cause it turn green??
I conducted an internet search and found one other operator with same problem. Sent to lab with no conclusive findings. The abnormal mossy color with throwing a E1267-1 Code "Hyd Filter Restriction" is highly suspect.
Is it a mineral oil . We have areas where machinery have to use a bio friendly oil in their hydraulics in case of a leak .
I think therein lies your problem, and I agree that it is likely microbial growth. The oil in that transmission is now 11 years old. If you check the Operation & Maintenance Manual it states " Use mileage, fuel consumption, service hours, or calendar time, WHICHEVER OCCURS FIRST, in order to determine the maintenance intervals." The transmission oil change frequency is listed as every 1000 hours or 6 months. So by that metric up to now you have missed around 20 oil changes in the life of the machine. Now don't get me wrong, for a machine operating only a few hours per week I would comfortably stretch that 6 month interval out to maybe anything up to a couple of years with regular oil sampling/analysis, but 11 years is pushing things a bit beyond the boundary of prudent preventive maintenance IMHO. What I suggest at this point is to drain the oil, clean the suction screen at the back of the transmission and also the magnetic screen (the procedures are in the O&M Manual) then change the filter and refill with some cheap SAE10W or ISO AW32 hydraulic oil. Run the machine and get it well hot but don't drive it around too much if you can avoid it. Run through all the gears in an attempt to flush out all the contaminated oil from the clutches, etc. Drain the oil, change the filter, and clean the screens again then refill with SAE30 TO-4 oil as per the O&M. Cross your fingers that has removed the contamination. If it hasn't then you are into biocide territory. I've had a bit of experience in that but in fuel, not lubricating oils, so I am not sure the same criteria apply. Calling @Coaldust - you're up.
Thanks Nige! - now to find a O&M Manual to find out how to pull magnetic and suction screens.
The oil is Cat TDTO 30, not mineral.
TDTO is a mineral (as opposed to synthetic-based) oil. You've had the machine from new and you're saying it's not still in the pocket behind the seat.? Search for Cat Publication reference SEBU8594. Here's a genuine OEM one for sale on eBay . See the attached. It appears that your machine does not have a transmission suction screen, usually located behind a 4-bolt cover on the back side of the transmission. If you want to confirm post a photo showing the lower half of the transmission case taken from the back of the tractor. There is a screen in the torque converter scavenge side, #4 on the illustration below. Remove plug #15 to access it.
Very interesting thread. New on me. Will look forward to the outcome
Just picked up on the fact you’ve had it since new for 11 years either only414 hours. This is a rare occurrence. I’d be completely flushing every fluid in there possible,pulling the coolers out,and flushing the radiator core. You’ve probably got one chance at sorting any futher,expensive issues out right here and now. Spend a few grand on it and she’ll be good for another 11 years. I’d be changing oils every couple of years though depending on your weather climate
Waiting on lab reports. Regardless, I plan on draining transmission, replace filter - clean screen and magnet, add 42.2 gallons fresh oil, do a shock with Biobore JP (per Hammands Engineer), minimal run, set 48 to 72 hours, drain oil, replace filter, clean screen @ torque converter scavenge side, final oil with Cat SAE 30 (TDTO30). Will update as soon as resolved so the results may help others who experience this rare DT oil issue.
Provided you are not going to drive the machine around you could probably get by using a lot less oil for the flush. So long as the oil is just showing on the dipstick when the engine is idling that should be fine. I don’t want to be a prophet of doom but you may find yourself flushing the transmission oil more than once before you finally get rid of the contamination. You might also consider removing the transmission oil cooler after the first oil flush and having it thoroughly cleaned.
Great suggestion. Thanks Nige! I'll do some research on how to remove oil cooler for cleaning.
The transmission cooler is part of the radiator assembly so you have to remove the complete assembly first then separate it into the component parts. That's not a small job.
Thanks for the attachment. Definitely a job to be handled by Cat shop or FSU.
I was thinking that it would be an oil/water cooler mounted on the side of the engine which would be relatively easy to remove and clean. Being as it’s part of the radiator assembly my call would be not to bother
I’m late to the party. Wow, that’s really gross looking oil. Nige and I chatted about it. I’ve never seen that condition before in a piece of mobile equipment. Mostly in large turbine lube oil reservoirs, offshore marine gear. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Any words of wisdom regarding how to get shot of it......?
Waiting on the lab results to be uploaded into vision link, but lab supervisor sent me this email of his preliminary inspection of the Trans and Hydraulic samples sent in last week. " This looks like dye to me. No signs of water in the sample. The hyd sample if you can see has a red tint to it also. This is not uncommon on break-in factory oil." and "We don’t check for Algae but there would need to be condensation which would show up as water. As far as the dye.. The factory commonly uses dye to make sure there are no leaks before the machine leaves the factory" IMO, the trans oil does not look normal. The unit has never had any leaks to chase down by adding "dye". This along with a E1267-1 "Hyd Filter Restricted" message. Maybe a bad restriction sensor, dont know. Nonetheless, the trans oil will be changed out.
Ive seen this in untreated diesel fuels and jet fuel storage tanks that have set for long periods, but never in trans, hyd, or engine oils.
It wouldn't be unusual for an oil to have dye in it from the factory, but there are only two colours - red & blue. So I'm not sure it's dye, even badly discoloured. We always ran dye in transmissions and hydraulics in machines with complex systems, basically so that if oil was dripping we could tell which system it was coming from. Ask the lab supervisor if he would care to have a crack at explaining the green colour when only red & blue dyes (Cat Part Numbers 9U-5031 & 9U-5032 respectively) are available through their parts system. Other manufacturers DO have green oil dye BTW, but not Cat.
This is a zoomed in version of the trans sample. Look at top of sample where it sloshed up against clear plastic bottle above sample level. They are assuming that with no water content in sample, "algae" or what I call microbial growth is impossible.
I don’t think a biocide would be necessary. A service and normal operating temperature should kill anything present. Let’s see the filter cut open.
I will have our ranch foreman remove and cut open the existing filter. The filter that we replaced week before last is the old style - difficult to open, but replaced it with a new style filter that is easier to get into. Will post back as soon as he gets this done - not sure "when"
Cat SOS lab techs and lab managers are not trained on this subject. It’s not in their wheelhouse. The hydrocarbon utilizing microbes that live in diesel are not the same “bugs’ that live in lube oil. Lube oil doesn’t need a water interface for stuff to grow in it. There is enough water in the air to feed the types of mould and bacteria that can live in lube oil. For some reason, tribologists call it mould instead of mold. I didn’t spell it wrong.
Maybe they were English.?
A life time of doing this stuff, I’ve never seen this in mobile equipment. Think of all the old equipment sitting around for decades. The oil may be discolored, there may be water in the bottom of the reservoir, but there isn’t anything growing in it. Same with vented lube oil storage tanks and drums. For fun, try shining a UV light at it. That could help rule out fluorescent dye, maybe.
He just pulled trans filter, sent pic. Looks good other than a slight green tint. BTW, the filter in pic has about 3 to 4 hard working hours on it. Not sure why getting a hyd filter restriction message I do not know of amy other hyd pressure senors other than the one coming out top of trans filter housing.
Need to cut the ends off the filter and spread the media out so we can see it.
He is going to try and cut open the old filter in the morning and spread the media with pictures. Stated doesnt have another filter on location to put back in - didnt want to leave it open without a filter. let's see what the old filter tells when he gets to it tomorrow. Like most on here, never seen anything like this considering no solid evidence and filter restriction warning . . .I appreciate everyones input.
See this VIDEO that shows how to cut a section out of the media, squeeze it in a vice, then fan it out to look for particles. HOLD THE BUS BEFORE CUTTING THAT FILTER OPEN............. Looking at the photo of the Event Code on the monitor screen my question is are we talking about the appropriate filter here.? From what I see a plugged transmission filter should throw up an Event Code of "E329 - Transmission Filter Plugged". Also the small icon that is illuminated below the window is the plugged hydraulic filter icon #14, not the plugged transmission filter icon #10. Has anyone taken a look at the hydraulic filter recently.? The above is another good reason why you REALLY need an Operation & Maintenance Manual.
Kale & arugula smoothie? Joe H
Actually, he does have an O&M manual. Thanks for pointing out hydraulic vs. transmission filter restriction. Cat told him to pull the floor panel and look around for any chewed wires or anything obvious. Not sure where the hydraulic system has a sensor for measuring filter restriction. Didnt see one attached to the hydraulic filter. I will convey that he needs to cut open the hydraulic filter as well. That was the first thing done when we got the code was change hydraulic filter. Sent in sample of hydraulic fluid as well. It looks normal - just not sure what is throwing the hydraulic filter code. Here is a picture of sample sent out on the hydraulic side. Filter looked good, changed it anyway. Electrical or sensor issue, do not know. After looking at that transmission sample, that got my attention and, at that time, didnt differentiate transmission fron hydraulics regarding the code. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Aside from planning on changing out transmission oil and filter, I now need to refocus on what is causing the hyd filter restriction code considering still comes on with new filter. Attached pic of hydraulic sample
Exactly.... sounds healthy - with a twist of trans fluid
The transmission filter bypass spring/spool are #1 & 2 in the illustration below. there should be a switch somewhere - they are often not shown in the section drawing of the filter. The plugged hydraulic filter warning is actually for the case drain filter. That is the small spin-on element, NOT the main element located in the hydraulic tank. that filter is where all the wear particles from the expensive hydraulic components tend to end up. The Service Manual speaks thusly....... Case drain filter (1) is mounted in the line that returns case drain oil to the hydraulic tank from the implement hydraulic pump, the steering pump, and the steering motor. Case drain oil flows through the filter base into the filter housing. The oil fills the space between the inside of the filter housing and the filter element. Then, oil flows through the filter element and back to the filter base. Oil from the filter base flows to the hydraulic tank. The filter element stops any debris that is in the oil. If the filter element fills with debris, the restriction to the flow of oil causes a pressure increase. The increase in pressure causes a bypass valve to open. Unfiltered oil is allowed to flow into the hydraulic tank. Unfiltered oil can cause damage to components in the hydraulic system. Based on the above it might be an idea to have someone hook Cat ET up to the machine and download a Product Status Report (PSR). A scan of that document should let the dog get a better view of the rabbit.
Transmission filter bypass alarm is created by a pressure switch #2 located in the head of the filter.
See attached PSR Thanks!
That "hydraulic" spin on filter (1 above) is the one we replaced when first getting the code. All clean found no issues.
I am correcting post # 1. No longer able to edit it. changing "a mossy green hydraulic oil" to a mossy green tansmission oil".
Do you suppose a machine that old and that few of hours could the green be caused by corrosion of the splintered bronze discs?
Will that degradation show up in a cat Oil Analysis? Still waiting on lab to upload to VL
It might Can't say I ever ran into oil like that but that was all I could think of but again I can't remember a machine that old with that few of hours
OK, so that clears that up. You replaced the correct filter for the warning shown on the Monitor panel but for the wrong reasons, thinking it was transmission when it is in fact for the hydraulic system which is completely separate. I suppose that begs the question a bit as to where exactly the oil in the sample bottle shown in your first post actually came from. Please don't tell me the tank on the RH fender.........
After changing filter in hydraulics didn’t clear code, inspected wiring, didn’t see anything obvious. Then changed filter in transmission. The green sample cam from transmission. I inadvertently typed it came from hydraulics is post 1, after discovering the posting mistake, was unable to correct by edit. After a certain amount of time, the thread doesn’t allow you to edit so I made a follow-up post (see post #46). No, the right hand fender is where I sampled the amber colored hydraulic fluid. Used a Cat hand pump and pulled from transmission oil sample from dipstick left rear fender (mossy green).
So the logical next step would be to locate and remove the pressure switch on the hydraulic system case drain circuit and check the Part Number on it. I see an updated Part Number that was introduced to address "issues of incorrectly indicating by-pass that were experienced with the former switch" which could potentially be your problem. I cannot find a switch shown anywhere close to or on the implement case drain filter. I CAN find a switch on the steering filter #22 which is all part of the implement hydraulic circuit because it supplies oil to both the hydraulic & steering system. That filter is located in the left side of the engine compartment right behind the radiator. Unplug the 2-pin connector and try jumpering the machine harness that connects to it and see if the plugged filter warning goes away. If it does then maybe you need to investigate the filter element in that location. Thanks for confirming where the transmission oil sample came from. On that system you are back to the drain/flush/filter change (rinse & repeat) that we discussed some time back. I suggest that you take the advice of @Coaldust and not bother with biocide treatments, simply flush the system then work the bejasus out of the machine. The heat generated from that should kill whatever organism is left.
Mind boggling thread. All new to me. Very interesting
Working on it. Thanks Nige!!
Probably stupid response, but could the implement pump be leaking into the transmission case and causing the odd color in the transmission since both oils are dyed?
Nige, you are absolutely awesome! Followed your instructions with the pressure switch test, code went away after jumping the harness. Removed jumper and code returned. Filter and Oil is very clean, wiring in tact without any issues. Ruled out an ECU problem looking at the PSR I pulled. CONCLUSION for Hydraulic Code E-1267-1. Bad Pressure switch. Ordered new switch part number 3496097 (Nige can check if this is the old or new part number as Cat doesn't know nor part number stamped on existing pressure switch). Will replace filter element (and o-ring). Lab reports on Hydrauli oil come back as good (see attached). CONCLUSION for Transmission odd color and overall visual condition: Although lab reports the sample as good (see attached), I will be changing out the oil and another new filter, and have operator go run the hell out of it. Although the lab does not test for bugs, Absent of any water as tested, It is my opinion that the oil is contaminated with some type of bug. This is rare, but it happens. Thanks everyone for your input and special thanks for the invalable NIGE!!!!!!!!!!! What an asset to this forum he is.
I see nothing newer than 349-6097 which is the updated switch part number. There may not be a P/N on the existing switch but I bet there is a 6-letter Date Code as illustrated in the example below. EDIT: Apparently the latest iteration of 349-6097 was fitted to tractors with S/N PER01144-Up. If that is true then your machine didn't have the latest version of the switch installed. Both the transmission (17/15/12) and the hydraulic (18/16/12) system have excellent cleanliness. The contamination in the transmission oil has to be biological IMHO. As mentioned earlier the age of the oil was not helping. It appears as though we may have light at the end of the tunnel........
There isnt any komatzu machines in your fleet or oil it seems to me they had a green oil.
Tyler - we have no Komatzu equipment - just Cat, JD, & CNH
I’ve seen a green oil before but don’t remember what.
I have seen it as well. When I was working road construction in Winnipeg MB, it was used in a road milling machine. That was back in the early 90's. Texas refinery or something like that was on drums.
That makes sense, as the barrels I saw had Texas on them also and was told it only came from a specific area. In my hand it was a green oil and pretty heavy.
I saw a video a few days ago on oil filtration for heavy equipment. They were filtering the oil on an excavator and the hydraulic oil was tinted mossy green. The next clip of a different machine had red oil. I'm sure the OP would know if the oil was always green though. Glad he got it sorted out. That stuff can be stressful. I'd wish our dozer had tinted trans oil because it's hard to see on the stick, especially in the sun.
You could buy the oil dye and put it in yourself. Look in somewhere like Amazon. We always used red in transmissions and blue in hydraulics.
I have found, sanding the dipsticks and painting them in flat black, a good way to see the oil.
I don’t find the biggest problem to be seeing the oil level on the dipstick. The oil dye helps a lot with that, but the dipstick tube wipes the oil off the dipstick itself when you pull it out. It’s just a flat bar with nothing to prevent that.