Hey everyone had a odd problem today out of the blue with my D7E high horse motor. Been doing some dirt work this fall and everything was going honky dory, took the day off yesterday for thanksgiving(yup I’m in Canada) and went back to work this afternoon again after a quick trip to the optometrist. Checked the engine oil and fired up as usual. Let it warm up while I was filling it up with fuel again and carried off on my way to where I was working. Only a couple hundred feet away. Back bladed some dirt out of a ditch in one spot and noticed the heat gauge was climbing quick. Backed up on level ground and checked the coolant. Sure enough it was low and there was a oil film around the top of the lid. Ok uh oh we have problems here. Drove back down into the ditch and checked the coolant again on the slope and still nothin showing. Got it back to the truck and parked it, was a bit of something burning off under the hood. Not exactly sure what it was but it wasn’t antifreeze. Seemed to be coming from around the glow plugs on the front head. Checked the transmission oil after that and sure enough it was overfull. The thing that gets me though is how does it go from running great to siting for 2 days and draining the coolant into the transmission. Sure seems odd. It’s been running warm but not hot. Around 180°F never gets much higher. Torque temp was climbing the last day i was working but that was the only unusual thing I saw. I’m assuming the transmission cooler sprung a leak but still seems odd to me that it would drain back like that siting there. I’m hoping the heads and head gasket are ok yet. Tonight I briefly fired it up again just to see how it sounded. Ran great with no blow by or smoke. Was smoking a bit when it was hot this afternoon. Actually smelt more like diesel though then oil. I let a little bit of oil out the drain plug at the back for the transmission. I didn’t get green antifreeze but the oil had a slight gray color to it. No leaks on the cat, everything was dry underneath yet. It’s a mile away from home now and I’d like to get it back here to work on it. We’re starting to freeze at night now so I’m Leary of putting water in it. Also hate to add more water to the transmission although it should go the other way when it’s running in a perfect world. Any thoughts or help is appreciated.
Sounds like your trans cooler is pooched. When the engine is shut off after running, the cooling system is pressurized and the trans is not, so coolant pushes into the trans. When the engine is running, the trans cooler pressure is likely more than the coolant pressure so trans fluid may push into the cooling system
Likely the transmission cooler. With 35 gals oil takes a lot of anti freeze before it settles out. A hard lesson here always check the radiator before you start motor ,if its low don't start investigate saves a big clean up job. And if water is below temp sender you will break heads before you realize gauge is not warming up. Good luck with repairs Bob
Thanks guys. Appreciate the advice and info. The pressure regulating valve on top the rad is missing currently so the rad probably didn’t have much if any pressure in it but gravity would drain it down as well I suppose as the transmission case is lower. Bob yes you are correct, and quick inspection could’ve saved some grief. It’s one of those things where you get complacent and in a hurry. It’s been ok so it’ll be ok sort of thing. It is a bit of a fluke but goes to show that it can happen. It is a bit odd as the cooler was replaced not to long before I got the cat I believe. I’ve owned it since about 2007 I believe. Bought it when I was just a few years out of high school and it’s stuck with me. I haven’t put a pile of hours on it but it does get used yearly. Probably around 550-600 now. Haven’t had the need to make new logging roads lately so it hasn’t seen as much use. What do you guys think about limping it home the 1 mile from the field and draining the water and transmission oil as soon as I get it in the shop? If by chance I have to pull the heads I’d rather not do it in the field and our season is coming to a end here shortly anyways. Parts will be special order I’m sure so likely a week or two wait there too. Thanks. Ryan
Well you don't have much choice now, add water or weak anti freeze and go for it just drain everything when you get there. Bob
Might be able to get someone to haul it but it’s kind of a shame too on that short of distance. See what tomorrow brings I guess and see if I can’t get it home. Low of of 13°F(-8°C) tonight and calling for a chance of snow in the near future.
That would be the best way home. Bob
Definitely the better option but itll be a while before someone can get here is the trouble. The concern one of my friends had was the coolant attacking the steering clutch discs. I wouldn’t think that would be a problem but I’ve been wrong before.
If it’s only a mile drive it. By the time you load it and unload it off the truck there will be very little difference. Just make sure the rad is full when you do it.
Talked with the scrap guy that is supposed to be out here in the next little bit to haul off some scrap iron and he said he can haul it home for me so I’ll hold off till tomorrow. He’s supposed to be here tomorrow morning. He might even have some used antifreeze to put in it. Next hurdle will be flushing the cooler lines and everything else once I get the new cooler installed. Not sure which route I’ll take there yet. Hate to dump new oil in and right back out. One friend suggested diesel fuel I’m leery of hurting the seals.
You better check the o rings around the precombustion chambers sounds like they need replaced too
Will do, hopefully it’ll be home in a warm shop tomorrow so I can assess things a little better. Local dealer was having trouble sourcing a new cooler. I see a couple online that seem to change up from the old numbers. One new old stock cat one as well on eBay of it’s the correct one. Have another dealer checking into it and the first had emailed a few others so we’ll see what they come up with first I guess. Cat was over 3,000 according to the first dealer I called. Little excessive I thought lol.
Cat shows a yellow mark for 1,300.00
Interesting. Our exchange rate is still pretty high but certainly not more the double. Rained most of the night so unfortunately the scrap guy won’t be here today so no ride home today.
Called finning this morning and my other dealer was correct, just shy of 2900$ for a classic cat part. Might make a few calls to the rad shops and see if there’s any options to recore the cooler. Couple other places I’m going to check with on availability as well. They show stock online but some of these places show 1 of everything when you search for it so it doesn’t always mean much. Honestly didn’t think it would be this big of a issue to track one down. I’m sure Covid hasn’t helped. Couple options on eBay but they don’t list the mfg. Would like to stick to a known name but may have to consider the Chinese version. Likely supplies the other mfg anyways if the truth was known
You might want to wait till you pull yours out and check it .As you describe your leak it may just be a seal leaking. Bob
Was planning on trying to rig up something to pressure test it once I have it out just to confirm. Would be nice if it was something simple but my luck doesn’t usually go that way it seems.
Well I got anxious and went out bright and early this morning and brought the cat home. Scrap guy was coming later on so I figured if worse came to worse we could make something work with his trailer. He has a scissor neck with home built beaver tails that aren’t made super heavy so he was a bit leery of running the cat straight up them without a ramp. Filled the rad and let it warm up for a few minutes then headed out at a slow pace till the water temp came up a bit. Came home in 3rd gear at about 1/4 throttle with no problems. No overheating and no bubbles in the rad that I could see. The bad part was the chocolate milk in the rad though. Going to take serveral rinses to get the cooling system clean. Still not sure how I’ll get the transmission clean yet aside from Multiple oil changes which sure counts up quick.
Dawn dish soap in the cooling system works or if you don't like a lot of bubbles, try cascade dishwasher detergent. Years ago we used to use Dowanol (diethylbutylether ? Not sure if this is correct) added with oil for flushing to get rid of glycol contamination but its not available any more that i know of at least not through Finning like it used to be.
I’ll have to do some checking and see if I can find it or a similar product. Thanks. Seems like all the old good cleaners have been banned or replaced by new environmental friendly replacements that don’t always do the same job.
The people who make those environmental decisions don't work either. Just say'n.
That's the stuff. Best thing for cleaning out an oil-contaminated cooling system. And don't shirk on how much you put in there, a pound or so at least. Even then you may not get it all at the first go-round. It's also important to rinse every last trace of the detergent out of the system when the cleaning process is completed.
tis true lol. When I got the cat the cooler had been replaced and they hadn’t flushed the engine very well so I grabbed a couple Boxes of calgonite dishwasher soap and one bottle of flettguard cooling system flush. Several freshwater rinses after it seemed to do the trick. Wasn’t nearly as bad that time though.
Commercial blue dawn soap will out clean everything short of just putting purple power in the rad.
Just a bit of a update. Got the oil drained out the other day and pulled the cooler today. Capped the transmission side of the cooler and put some air into it. Can hear it hissing out through the cooler tubes so there’s definitely a hole. Not a huge one but a hole none the less. Was some calcium buildup on a few of the cores and lots of slimy oil .
Took the cooler in today and they soldered shut a couple of tubes said if you can get a new one I’d recommend it though. He said some of the others inside didn’t look good and could very well leak. When I washed it up this morning with the pressure washer I could see where they had soldered a couple of others shot before so this cooler had been around the block a time or two already and not as new as it appeared. I’m hoping I can get a new ctp cooler from a dealer in Florida. No one else is showing stock or has them available here through them. It’s a known brand at least that I’ve had decent luck with so hopefully that holds true. Got some oil picked out for it today. Brining in 9 pails of the nemco 30 weight oil for me and he has a barrel of 50 weight tdto4 oil to flush it that I can have very cheap as it was ordered as a mistake. Should be about as good of option as I can get I think. If I was running it in the summer only I could almost get by with it I think. https://klondikelubricants.com/products/50-tdto-4/ https://nemco.ca/wp-content/uploads/PowerTrans-TO-4-Mono-Grade-Oils_rev0.pdf
Has anyone ever dealt with the coolant overflow valve before on here? I’m trying to track down the proper one. There’s several different versions in the parts diagrams depending on serial number. Not all of them show up on the cat site anymore. This appears to be the closest to what I have on there now. There’s no overflow tube just a open hole at the moment. I haven’t had the hood off yet to see if by chance there are threads in there but I don’t believe there are just going off memory and from glancing at it before. Does anyone know what the difference were and if by chance the newer will work in place of the older? The 5s1218 seems to be a pretty common number and still available. I have mixed serial numbers on the cat so it makes ordering a little dofficult at times plus who knows what’s been changed out over the years.
Don’t make the mistake I made many years ago flushing out the rad on a 68A D8 after a tranny cooler cracked. I used my mother’s baking powder rather than baking soda to clean the rad!!!!!!
That would make quite a mess alright lol. Not quite the correct way to mix up biscuits lol. Tore into it some more tonight to see if I could find some more part numbers under the hood/front rad cover. With the tank cover off I was able to see some numbers to narrow things down a bit. Was certain when I had the overflow valve off years ago that the valve was missing the way I remembered it. I was wrong though. Only things actually missing are the overflow pipe, the strainer and a 1/8” npt plug. That’s why the tank leaked when you would go up a steep hill or bounce it around the wrong way. Part numbers do differ from the proper diagram for the tank but everything seems to fit together regardless.
I doesn't need an overflow pipe if that hole is above the hood. That way you can see if it overflows and that lets you know if its not happy. The water pressure gauge is also a good indicator. If your parts book doesn't show a tube, then you don't need it
That valve you have apart is a pressure regulator like the cap on your car, the hole in it don't have a tube in it. That line in the picture should go to the radiator pressure gauge on the dash if you have one. Part book show different set ups by serial numbers so you need to look at the right picture for your number. Bob
See the problem I’m running into is this rad appears to have been pieced together from different machines. The regulating valve is from a later serial number as far as I can tell and the cover and plate as well. I know the rad was replaced with a used one when I got the machine but of course I have no idea what serial number machine it came off of. Getting a little frustrating I must admit for such a simple little part. I don’t like piecing things back together and try to leave things in better shape when I take something apart. It doesn’t help when the old numbers seem to be now be nla for the tank that is on the cat. You can see in the pictures where the hole that feeds pressure to the water pressure gauge is blocked off by the cover when it’s installed. The only way I can see to get pressure from the tank is to plumb in a new line to the hole that is supposed to be plugged and run it back to the water pressure gauge. I promise I’m not as stupid in real life but this stupid little valve has my head spinning a bit going back and forth between parts books and trying to match up what might work with what’s there. Serial number of the cat for anyone who’s interested is 48A 5134. The motor is a later serial number so it’s a high hp.
first picture matches up with the part numbers I have on the cat except for the tank. Second picture (48a2611)is the tank and what should be on there according to the parts books. Neither one actually matches up to my serial numbers.
The hole in the cap is only to vent pressure when the valve opens at 15 # or what ever normally it would have no pressers on it. Bob
You may or may not have a high horse engine depending on if only the block has been changed during a previous rebuild. Check the turbo and air cleaner arrangements to see if they match a high horse application. On those old machines a lot of parts may have been changed over its life. As far as i know you can still have a low horse engine with a high horse turbo and air cleaner. Maybe someone else will chime in
Yes I understand that part Bob. The valve opens under pressure and vents out the top of the cap. The confusing part with the mixed up parts is this plate actually covers up the hole where you suggested the water pressure gauge would tie into it. Some of the diagrams do now show this extra plate installed onto it. Without it there though there’s nothing for the valve to seat up against. I’m not sure if the strainer is large enough inside that the valve would seal on it if it were there or not. Earlier versions do list a different valve but I haven’t been able to get ahold of cat or cross the number online to anything that’s available. The 5s1218 seems to be very common yet. That’s what’s on there now. The valve in the other parts diagram is 9m6369 which doesn’t come up under cats site anymore. They’re supposed to call me back but so far haven’t heard anything. Parts guys were busy when I called before.
To the best of my knowledge it’s equipped as a high horse. I put a new turbo and manifold on 3-4 years ago. Heads were replaced when the seller sold it to me. Intake is set up as a high horse. This is about the only side shot I have on my phone at the moment.
With the plate you have the 1/4 hole gets a cork. the 1/8 hole next to the hose should be the gauge line. Bob
How about that Faberoso stuff? That gets off third world dirt. It punks out Mr. Kleen like he’s a bitch. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YG3PM14P7Gw
Thanks Bob that’s kind of along the lines of what I was thinking before. Hopefully finish off my parts list tonight so I can get something in the works for shipping. No one in Canada has any coolers in stock so I have to wait either way. Little scared of getting stuck with a heavy customs bill if I ship through a courier but at this point I’d just like to have this little project done and out of my hair. Sure is a lot simpler when you can just go into the store and say I have this machine I need this part and walk out with it or have it in a day or two. Gotten spoilt with the other stuff we have I guess aside from our old Clark skidder everything is pretty easy to get parts for or at least it was before Covid.
Has anyone here ever dealt with products from a company called American crane and tractor? The company in Florida can’t get a cooler through CTP either but has one available from a company called act which I believe stands for the above mentioned company. I’m always a little scared of some of the lesser known aftermarket companies but it’s looking like I don’t have much for options unless I want to spend 3,000 from cat. https://www.actparts.com/
Have you tried Korpan tractor Saskatoon? They sometimes are good at some of the older stuff.
Yes that was my first call. Was talking with Garth this morning again just to check again in case something else came across his desk. They’re somewhat local to me and I’ve dealt with them for quite a few years. Pro-Line diesel could get one from Spain that was the only other option in Saskatchewan. Spence equipment never called me back again. Another company from Ontario could get one from Europe as well but that’s the only other place in Canada that has been able to say yes we can get one that I’ve talked to.
I have a industrial radiator shop here that can get oil coolers so if you have one near you give them a shout. Bob
I think that American crane and tractor have deal with Italian company called GB Group or CGR parts Those coolers may be CGR parts https://www.ghinassi.com/CATALOGHI/oil_coolers/
when I had the cooler into him I mentioned possibly getting one from him after. He suggested I just go online and get one. Didn’t really offer up any options to order one at all. They do seem like a pretty big company. Just surprised I haven’t heard more about them over the years. All of act’s hydraulic pumps or pump components come from them from what I could gather. They didn’t mention the coolers but it could very well be them too.
Well lots of time has passed since my last post. Finally got my parts today. Been 4 weeks now since they were officially mailed. Hopefully get it all back together and out of the shop pretty soon now. Have a few parts at finning that I have to pick up tomorrow maybe then get started on reassembly. One thing I didn’t realize was the water pressure gauge isn’t pressure fed. It’s like a water temp with a gas inside that expands. I don’t have a fitting for it yet so may just cap it off for the time being.
As far as i know, the water pressure gauge is a normal gauge connected to the rad with copper tubing. The only gauges i've seen with a sealed sensing bulb and non-serviceable line are mechanical temp gauges unless there are some i'm not aware of.
What does your parts book show?
It’s the correct gauge going by the parts book. 3s4131 which subs up to 8s4914 according to the cat site. It’s very reminiscent of a temp gauge only there’s no sender on the end of it. Fitting that goes into the rad appears to maybe be a ferrule fitting but not certain. Pic only showed the one end. It appears the copper line is crimped off that’s why I assume there’s some type of gas in there.
Maybe its crimped to keep dirt out. Does the end on the gauge have a compression fitting? When i redid mine on my 46a i just used copper tubing and ran it inside 1/4" air brake line to protect it
It’s a sealed connection protected with rubber. When I looked at the pics of the gauges online I was a bit confused so I didn’t order any more fittings till I got the gauge. The fitting is available from cat. It does have a compression fitting on it. Slight chance I can find it somewhere else but matching up to the wire size might be a issue. Haven’t measured it. First priority is to get the rest of it back together anyways and go from there.
Managed to track down a compression fitting at my local agco dealer. Had one I’m stock. No one else close by had one. Matches up with the specs I found online and does seem to fit the rubber wrap over the copper tube. Started putting things back together so hopefully have it done in the next little bit. Only hold back at the moment might be the sun zero weather. I’d like to take it outside to get it heated up good when I flush everything. Little hard to do with water when it’s -30 out.
Well, i learned something new today. I checked the parts book for my 46a and it also lists the 3S4131 gauge assembly. I wonder if its made that way as a sealed unit otherwise rust, etc would plug up an ordinary copper tube or the gauge, especially when in the old days, guys would just use any old ditch water to dump in the rad if they had to
I would expect that definitely has something to do with it. Possibly because of how sticky antifreeze can be as well. I don’t have the proper water temp gauge on mine to correlate with the water pressure gauge but it’ll give a idea if something isn’t correct anyways. Just waiting on the shop to warm back up this morning and I’ll go back to work again. -20°F this morning outside. No wind at least.
Sometimes a water pressure gauge causes more problems than it’s worth
Stumbling my way through the repair process and kind of inbetween tear downs and repairs as you guys know from my previous posts. I picked up fittings to pressure test the cooling system yesterday before I put coolant back in. Turns out it doesn’t hold. Did a intial test last night and found a pioneer coupler leaking for my engine heater. Brought some soapy water up this morning to see if I could find any other leaks. The thermostat housing has the biggest leak and it’s not big enough to compensate for the air loss I don’t think. Lost a pound or so over about 5 minutes. The new oil cooler flange has a very tiny leak as well. More air I put in the quicker tge whole system leaks down. Debating now if I should pull the heads to inspect. Kind of know the answer already I’m afraid but thought I’d check in and see what your thoughts were about the precombustion chambers. My thought there was if they were indeed leaking it would likely show up externally past the o-rings and not past the copper sealing ring at the bottom. I’m not the worlds worst mechanic but to be honest I’m getting a little sick of this thing in the shop. Between waiting on parts, finding other issues and the difficulty of finding parts it’s starting to wear on me. Yes I know I sound like a whiny millennial lol. It’s all part of owning older iron I know but it does wear on a guy after a little while.