Hi all, We have bought a machine from our CAT dealer (Finning) in Bolivia with 4200 hours of use. the machine currently has 6300 hours, in this period we have disarmed the transmission more than 4 times .. we have often observed the codes 585-2 and 673-2. Solenoids were verified and changed, also the speed sensors The problem that presents in the clucht 5 is wear. The clutch pressure maintains between 310 and 320. The working temperature is 110º. If anyone can help I'd appreciate it. regards,
Pressure Cat J8B02394 ( problem) #5 350 Psi #4 410 Psi #3 400 Psi another machine without problems Cat J8B02376 #5 350 Psi #4 430 Psi #3 440 Psi
Is the 110 DegC power train temperature "normal operating temperature" or is that the maximum it goes to..? Because it seems a little high to me, I would have expected normal operating temperature to be around 100 DegC. It could indicate a contaminated (partically blocked) cooler. Did you ever replace the transmission pump or the cooler when you had the transmission out of the machine..? A transmission clutch failure usually badly contaminates the cooler at the very least. Also did you ever clean out the power train oil lines at the time of transmission removal..? What Part Number of filter are you using..? 328-3655 (Std) or 338-3540 (High efficiency)..?
Did you perform the Diagnostic Troubleshooting Procedures for the CID 585 and 673 Codes before replacing the sensors..?
How long is it taking for the clutch the fully engage and come up to full pressure. If the initial clutch pressure is not calibrated right it will slip the clutch too long every time it engages.
Are the pressures you mention above measured at Low Idle or High Idle rpm..? The reason I ask is the pressures you mention above appear to be on the high side. The spec calls for pressure measurements to be made at Low Idle. The specifications are: - #5 Clutch - 325±15 psi #1-4 clutch - 380±15 psi If they were measured at High Idle then I suggest you do them again at Low Idle and post the results.
Sorry for the delay, we disarmed the transmission and saw that the third gear disc was patinated. the remains that we saw in the filter were from that disk. We could not determine where the yellow ring that we saw in the images probably from a previous break came from. The steel seal that we make for clutch 5 works well, the piston does not wear. Now, what may be causing the third gear to be activated ?, the mechanic recommended changing all the valves (5). Can the power train ECU be damaged? Can the first gear and the third gear be coupled at the same time? Thanks,
the pressures were taken at High Idle rpm .. unfortunately they could not take Low Idle rpm because they were ahead in the disarmed
[QUO the lines of the transmission and the pump were removed, also the oil cooler TE="Marteenn, post: 798445, member: 76208"][/QUOTE]
what seems strange to us is that the CID 585 and 673 no longer appear when we scan with ET and neither in the diagnostic records of the machine
t does not take too long, the calibration was done according to the specifications.
3375270
Does the tractor have two Power Train filter housings (like the illustration below) or just one..? Does it have an accumulator..? If yes then it has been updated to the latest Power Train filter setup as fitted to tractors from J8B04479-Up, and337-5270 is the correct filter element.
have two Power Train filter housings, what is the accumulator?
Tractors above S/N J8B04480 have only one Power Train filter housing and the PT hydraulic system contains an accumulator. All tractors up to J8B04479 can be modified to use the same system. The modification replaces the existing two filter housings with one and the standard filter element Part Number changes from 328-3655 to 337-5270. Attached is documentation announcing the change and also detailing how to do the upgrade. Unless someone else says different in my opinion you are not using the correct Part Number of filter element that corresponds to the actual twin-housing PT filter that is installed on the tractor. Unless the filter housings have been modified, tractors up to J8B04479 use 328-3655, from J8B04500-Up they use 357-3270. IMHO you should be using 328-3655. Whether this is contributing to your problem I do not know for certain, but the possibility cannot be ruled out.
very grateful for your information
What benefits do you think the accumulator will provide? .- Do you consider it very important to make this update? It is very difficult in Bolivia to have the pieces to make this update ..
I was not suggesting that you should make the update. All I was trying to point out is that in my opinion you are using the wrong Part Number of filter element considering the twin filter housing arrangement that is on the machine. You should be using a 328-3655 filter element.
Ok, , but I think that the hydraulic accumulator can provide greater stability to the entire system
Regarding the installation of the accumulator you may well be correct. The fact that the OEM has put an accumulator in the system leads me to believe that the pump may be slightly undersized in terms of flow capability in certain circumstances. I know of many systems that use accumulators to enchance flow, but they are mostly steering and brake systems. This is the first time I've seen it used in a power train oil system. The issue that I have is that none of the documenation explains exactly why the modification is being done, other than the fact that the new filter element Part Number "provides the latest filtration improvements" - It makes no mention of why the accumulator is being installed. I've never been to your area of Bolivia. I worked for Finning out of Antofagasta Chile for nine years. The nearest I got to Santa Cruz was the silver mine at San Cristobal operated by Washington Group.
we work enabling land for agriculture .. I attached some images of the work done by the machines
We are having problems with Finning Bolivia .. the officials do not provide us with the necessary information about service letters, product improvements, etc. When we hire an assistance service they do not send trained technicians or specialized in this type of machines (I understand that it is because there are not too many in the area) .- Is there any chance that Caterpillar people can help me? .. Thanks for your understanding
TIBU 5106-00 talks about codes 585-2 and 673-2 .. It says something like it's a problem reading the sensor, controlling the output speed of the torque converter .. if there are no speed jumps in this reading It may not be a problem A somewhat confusing explanation .. could someone help me with this TIBU 5106-00 ?? Thanks
328-3655 to Power Transmission and Torque Converter ?
Correct. Both filter canisters use the same Part Number of element. In other news I'm trying to get some information regarding TIBU5106-00. If I succeed I'll get back to you.
Hi , for all ! In a previous post I wrongly commented that the machine worked with a transmission temperature of 107 degrees Celsius ... this is the temperature at which the torque converter works, The machine is operating in a compacted soil and the load it carries is very light, when the operator goes up to this temperature for the operation for a period of 15 minutes and goes down to 100 º C. If you continue working, the motor temperature starts to rise. We have disassembled the CT and no damage of seals or turbines is observed. we take the pressures and they are within the normed values. What torque converter temperature values are acceptable for good equipment performance? We are using Mobil SAE 50 TO-4 oil Thank you !
You say the transmission was removed more than once for repairs to the clutch #5. In all the transmission failures you have experienced, have you ever replaced the transmission cooler..? Torque converter temperature should be in the range of 5-10 DegC higher than the engine coolant temperature. What approximate temperature does the engine coolant run at..?
Forgive me my ignorance! But SAE50 is a gear oil used in manual transmissions! Isn’t it little too thick for torque converter? But on the other hand I have no idea about dozers.
We have never changed the transmission oil cooler, we have only removed and cleaned it. The engine temperature works between 98 and 100 degrees when the TC works at 112 degrees. I sent the ET product suport so that you see the working temperatures in the history of the machine. Keep in mind that the machine is used and until 4500 hours work in cold temperatures, today the machine works in tropical climate where the ambient temperature is 30 - 35 degrees Celsius.
In my opinion it is impossible to adequately clean a transmission cooler core after a failure. The only sure way is to replace it. Our modus operandi is to always replace both the transmission pump and the cooler core after a failure. The engine temperature seems quite high. I would have expected something in the low 90's. Does it reduce as the Power Train oil temperature reduces..? Do you have an infra-red thermometer that you could measure the temperatures in and out of the powertrain oil cooler (both oil and coolant circuits)..? That engine has a hydraulically-driven fan. Has the engine fan speed ever been checked..?
we are going to try changing the transmission oil cooler, we did test with IR thermometer let's take the values again to public them. We have never changed the pump. The fan speed was taken and we changed the electrovalves. I will take these values back and publish them, the two machines work with high temperatures, we have also changed the hydraulic oil radiator for a narrower aluminum to facilitate the cleaning of the core and to pass more air flow. they told me that in Brazil they have heating problems in TC and they use 15w40 motor oil .. do you have any opinion about it? Thank you !
An oil meeting Cat TO-4 specification is the recommended one to be using in the combined oil system for the transmission/torque converter on a track-type tractor such as this one. I didn't pick up on this previously but for the ambient temperature conditions mentioned by the OP (30-35 DegC max) I would personally use an SAE30. The heavier SAE50 oil can cause somewhat slow clutch engagement (we're talking in terms of additional milliseconds of clutch filling time) that can result in clutch slippage and premature clutch failure. It also has better heat transfer characteristics in the powertrain oil cooler that improve heat rejection from the oil. I would also seriously suggest that the pump should be changed in addition to the cooler. I realize that this means a significant financial expense to replace them both but right now you have two major unknown quantities in the cooler core and the pump after having experienced multiple failures. I would not recommend using an engine oil in a transmission because it does not contain the necessary friction modifiers to deal with clutch disc friction material. Were you aware that a radiator with increased cooling capacity is available for the D8T for "High Ambient Temperature Environments"..? I have the complete article if you are interested.
If you could give me that information, I would appreciate it. Thank you !
The sae 50w oil is good from 50-122F I believe according to specs I believe so you should be good there. That's what we run here on the gulf coast year round and have no trouble from it. I've never heard of a repeat issue like that. I actually have a kpz d8t transmission apart right now for the same failure at 13k hours. I had another several months ago on a different machine with about 12k hours. What seal did you change out to metal? The issues I've seen are the clutch discs wearing past spec, the piston overextends then comes out and gets pinched. Pump pressure falls off in 1st gear after that. Operators running in 2nd gear and only shifting down to 1st under wide open stall will reduce the clutch life but not that much. Y'all have been calibrating the clutch fill time after repairs correct?
In clutch 5, internal and external seal of the piston. This is not a caterpillar specification but the old machines came like this, D8K .. Yes, this last time we changed the selenoids (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and calibrated the piston filling times. I'll be looking at how the operators work the machine.
Ring Seal ( External ) 6P-5317 ( Internal ) 8P-8357 We change for a steel Ring
From a sealing standpoint I would think you went backwards changing from the Teflon seals back to steel. Clutch #5 is already at a disadvantage vs the other clutches being in a rotating assembly with the oil having to go through shaft seal rings.
What's your thoughts on the fact that in spite of the repeat failures on the transmission clutches neither the pump nor the powertrain oil cooler core have been changed up till now..?
Assuming it has just been clutch disc failures and debri it doesn't concern me much. If there have been bearing or gear failures without at least inspecting the pump then that's a problem. Is the pump and clutch pressure in spec across all operating conditions? Temp, engine speed and gear changes? If not it should be looked at. They do have a priority valve and if you have a brake piston leaking that's going to get oil first and starve the transmission clutches. 110c is pretty hot for operating temp even at the ambient you said. That's convertor outlet I assume. What is the coolant and transmission sump temperature at? Check the transmission lubrication pressure. Oil goes through the the convertor, to the cooler and then back into the transmission case as lube oil. That being low could be from insufficient flow which could lead to insufficient cooling and lube and cause some of your issues.
Thank you very much for the information We will do all the tests this week and will come back with more information.