I have 300+ acres I'm mining for gold. 8% of it is alluvial comprised of small rocks, sand, gravel and mud all cemented together. I need to rip it up and take it down 16'-20' to bedrock. This will be done layer by layer so I can check for mineralization. For this I need a 3-shank ripper. The property to the south has been trying to do this same process with a D6 and they are working the dozer to capacity. That is the reason I thought to step up to a D9. The rest of the property is small hills 500-800 feet tall. Composition is quartzite, phyllite, granodiorite, sedimentary shale, schist, and quartz which runs from 8-inches up to 12 feet thick. The quartz is tough. The country rock has been folded and fractured so I believe a single shank can do the job. Nothing is solid except the quartz intrusive. These hills are quite small and I wish to take them down - again doing this slowly as we gather mineralization. The hills will require a strong machine. I also believe rock guards are in order. That limits the scope of machines available. The tops of the hills are easy to take down but as each hill is reduced, the base will spread out to a 1/4 mile in width and a bit more in length. We are a small operation with my wife and son and so one Cat and one steel-tracked loader will have to do the job. We're keeping a small, portable mill at the point of extraction so we don't need to haul the ore. That saves on rubber, fuel, maintenance, capital equipment purchases for haul trucks and labor. I am an american, an old guy, I believe in this country and so I don't want anything in our operation that starts with a "K". Hence, a Cat is where it's at for me. Now come my questions: I am looking at D9G and D9H machines with a 3-slot 4-barrel ripper and an SU blade. With the exception of the higher horsepower engine in the D9H, is there any difference between the two models? I believe the D9H has a turbo. Did the D9G also have a turbo as well? With patience, will the G perform as well as the H? That's my main concern. Should I only be looking for an H or will a G do just as well? 2nd Question relates to maintenance. I've been operating for years with lighter equipment and I always grease the machine after every 8 hours of work. However, when it comes to lubing the engine, changing out transmission fluids and doing heavier maintenance, my property is a looooooong way from any shop. Moreover, I can't afford to load up a big tractor every time something breaks or needs an oil change. What do other people do with big machines? I always hauled my smaller machines in for service and then back out to the job sites. Can things such as oil changes and routine maintenance be done on site? If I needed to overhaul the engine, then the tractor would get hauled into a shop for cleanliness reasons but let's say a hydraulic pump failed or a cylinder started leaking - can that be performed on the job site and . . . . . who could you get to do it? Are there companies or mechanics who come out to the job site? 3rd Question is about lubricants. I run synthetic in all my vehicles. I have one F350 that just turned over 500,000 and it's still got the torque. Yes, I've changed three injectors but otherwise, that Power stroke likes the synthetic oil. What about Cat engines? What are the best lubricants? It gets -25 degrees in winter and over 110 degrees in summer out in the desert. Do you run a lighter weight lubricant in the winter and heavier weight in summer? I thank you in advance for your response and your opinion. Kindest Regards, Jim
D9G or D9H, both machines can break out the rear main case (fabricated weldment) while ripping...consider drilling & blasting. IMO better machine D10 High Drive series.
To answer your questions about repairs in the field, anything that can be done in a shop can be done in the field with the right equipment and some ingenuity. There are dealer and independent field service mechanics with service trucks that will do most any repair, and typically the dealers will have special lube trucks set up to do oil changes, oil level checks in all compartments and oil samples which you will want to do regularly. Old machines cost just about the same as new ones when something breaks. You pay for travel time which is usually insanely expensive but that's versus hauling the machine back and forth every time it has a fever or a toothache. Up here where rock is typically soft there's lots of G's and H's still ripping and pushing in small rock pits, that's all I know about that. When I worked at the Portland CAT dealer there was a string of them going through the shop about 2001 or so getting factory certified rebuilds, stripped down to the bare frame for inspection, welding, updates and every component new, remanned, or rebuilt to as new condition, even new wiring harnesses. Was kind of impressive.
I have never heard about breaking out the rear main case. Is that because the ripper is bolted onto the rear of the tractor - or is it because the attachment frame on the rear was welded and breaks loose from the tractor?
So if I understand what you're saying, one can probably enter into a service contract with a CAT dealer or an authorized mechanic to perform periodic oil changes, maintenance and so forth in the field. Seems to be that for a small investment, one could erect a small 30x40 foot enclosure, out of the wind to make maintenance a lot more civil. Our property is on a mountain far from any structure or civilization. Next you referred to factory certified (authorized) rebuilds on Gs and Hs. Was there an acknowledged problem with these two models that required such a complete factory retrofit? Yes, that would be quite a sight to see these tractors torn down to the frame and then rebuilt. I chose the G or H because (1) they are big enough to do the job and (2) they are far more affordable than a new tractor. I recall reading that the early G and H models could be purchased for around $100K new. Now, that price looks like a dream. So maybe - if these two models had built-in problems, they may not be the right choice in a heavy tractor. Is that possible?
No need for a service contract, if you want them to come out and work on your D2 they'll do whatever you ask. You got the money honey, they got the time. They charge enough to make new purchases look attractive. Cat is big on rebuilding equipment, I doubt there was any acknowledged problem. In a big mine where the machines work constantly, they'll reach 20,000 hours or so and be completely worn out, but still be able to be rebuilt economically.
I would suggest that you will need to learn to do all the maintenance yourself get a service manual and go though it not only will you save thousands but will know your machine better I really dont see any other way way older equipment can be operated A shed is always nice and gives you somewhere to store supply's but not at all necessary Most of us do the maintenance on heavy equipment outdoors
I'm a very energetic 70 years of age so I'll be doing this for 5-8 years, no doubt. It's good to know that a rebuild is more affordable than new iron. Thank you.
You are absolutely correct. The more you know about any hardware - the easier you will be in operating it. Moreover, just like you said, when you know how something operates, you can "feel it" working when you're using it. I can do the lube and check the levels on reservoirs but when it comes to wrenching, I'm a fish out of water. None-the-less, I can sure see the benefits of doing as much as I can. Oil changes? Old oil is now treated like arsenic laced with lead and asbestos. We use to pour oil on our dirt driveways and roads to make it dust-free and to solidify the loose soil. Now? Oh man - call out the EPA lest anyone treat their driveway with oil. I'm not sure what I'd do with a barrel of oil. I perfectly understand that in a municipal area, one would not take kindly to some jerk pouring oil into the sewers. It's amazing how we were able to survive the late 40's and early 50's. No seat belts, no car seats and no helmets. Thank you for your response.
If you have a cell phone and a credit card you can get serviced, er well, your machine can, pretty much whenever you need it. Setting up a planned maintenance contract is a good idea and they do take away all the waste fluids, filters, etc. and will send you reports on the oil samples. The only problem with those machines was tens of thousands of hours and the owners liked them. Doing a certified rebuild gets you as near as humanly possible a brand new thirty plus year old machine with a new CAT serial number for your old machine and the savings from not buying a new high drive replacement. I would imagine the deal was financed as well so in terms of reliability and uptime versus rolling the dice it just makes sense. CAT actually gives each authorized dealership the full parts list and complete instructions to be followed for each step of the process and as I said at the end of the job a brand new serial plate is issued for each machine, along with the updated parts book showing all the updated components.
A total rebuilt machine. Wow, that's really tempting. I wonder at what cost? Probably a 6--8 month process, aye?
I don't recall it being more than a few weeks, don't know about cost. The trick would be to look for one that had been rebuilt on the used market I should think. Some of those programs were only available for a limited time because CAT had to tool up and run replacement components in quantity to make the program work.
Hmmmmm, okay. I actually may have seen one advertised recently. I'll go back and look. I think you are right. Rather than roll the dice on a used tractor - go instead with one that is ship-shape top to bottom and ready to go. That way, you are the one running it and there's no mystery because you know the history. I see you are in Coos Bay. Small world. I have a home on Elk Hill North of Port Orford.
D9G versus D9H I still ask the question: Is a D9G as good as a D9H? The D9H has a bit more horsepower but other than that - is there really any difference? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
Yair . . . Just my two bobs worth from half a world away. To my knowledge there were no specific issues with G or H Nines. Depending on the application they all had their little foibles but, for the most part, they were a good reliable tractor and made a lot of money for a lot of people all around the world. Those bastards could snig and they gave drawbars and rippers a hard time. We welded drawbars and rippers to the housings as a matter of course. You don't want to be playing with broken inch and a quarter or inch and a half bolts. I would prefer a late series g to an h for the simple reason they were squeezing more HP out of the engine and every thing else was pretty much the same and had been proven in what must have been close to fifteen years of service. . . I could be talking B/S here but I do that all the time. Seriously though. The O/P mentioned a similar operation was working a D6 to the limit and so he is considering stepping up to a Nine . . . a big leap??? I suggest a Eight might do the job then as the step up to a Nine is only one number on the scale but is a Quantum Leap when it comes to working on the suckers and possibly, (although I have no way of really knowing) the cost and availability of parts. As far as service and maintenance goes our machines never in their lives saw a workshop and all work was done under jury rigged tarpaulins. It really is no big deal although it is nice to have some sort of shed when rebuilding transmissions and engines. Cheers.
So in addition to the bolts, you also welded on the ripper? What in your opinion would be a "late" 9G? What years, please with specificity. I was not aware that parts or service would cost more or less between a D8 and a D9. I've always found that if you oversize the equipment for the job, then you end up not having to work the equipment as hard to get the performance you need. That is just my uneducated take on it. So this is a real surprise because you are not the first one to mention that major repairs can be accomplished in the field. That is wonderful news because the thought of dragging a large tractor 200 miles each direction to get service at the CAT dealer is not a pleasant financial thought. Don't forget to answer my follow-up question - what year 9G do you think constitutes a newer machine? Thank you so much for your insight.
Yair . . . Passionhawk1 . I am not much good at the history stuff mate. Some folks on here are wizards though with memories and records and they will probably chip in with serial numbers . . . I think the G's were produced up until around 1974. We pulled the drawbars off the first pair of G's in a matter of months, the bolts broke flush with housing, dealer replaced and we broke them again against all advise I welded them on then and no further issues. Next tractor was in a quarry with moving ripper so it got the same treatment and there have been a few since. I've been out of the game for over thirty years now so the memory grows dim. There's a bloke on here called tctractors who is a wizard with these old girls and can tell it as it is about relative costs and difference in wrenching between D8's and D9's but to me I seem to remember it was a leap. Just physically changing tracks and rollers and such like always seemed a disproportionately bigger job coming from D8's and Allis 21's. Cheers.
So welding along with new bolts took care of the ripper issue. That's good to know. I did not realize there would be such a cost difference in parts between the 8 and the 9. Older D8s generally appear higher priced in the resale market than the same vintage in D9s. Perhaps the lower cost of parts is the reason. Also too, as you pointed out, A D8 is a big leap over a D6 and perhaps, a D8 would suffice. Thank you for your comments. Anyone else? Please give me your opinion about this thread.
'Here' in Australia we tend to see D8's a bit dearer than a similar aged D9 due mainly to the real cost of transport if that applies. D9's (the older ones )tend to be popular on larger grazing properties where they will see out their days being "walked" from job to job. A lot of contractors tend to stick with D6,D7 and D8 sized machines due to ease of transport compared to a D9. There was a time here when 9's where carted around on floats with only 2 rows of eight and a tandem drive prime mover of less than 300hp , to do that now would require a quad axle float with a dolly and a prime mover rated to do the job. As to your question I have yet to ever see a "cheap" dozer turn out that way when expected to perform near the end of its useful life and not be a money pit. One thing to look at maybe is to investigate long term rental of a more modern machine with scheduled servicing and repairs part of the deal, as I don't know what your budget is but renting is usually calculated on a per/hr basis and gives you a bit more control over job budget rather than roll the dice on a old machine which you could easily spend more on repairs than what you purchase it for. Mike.
One thing to look at maybe is to investigate long term rental of a more modern machine with scheduled servicing and repairs part of the deal, as I don't know what your budget is but renting is usually calculated on a per/hr basis and gives you a bit more control over job budget rather than roll the dice on a old machine which you could easily spend more on repairs than what you purchase it for. Mike.[/QUOTE] You know Mike, one sees ad after ad after ad for CATS. Each ad talks about all the things that were done to the tractor to repair it. You stop and think, "Man, these things are breaking down all the time." Fact is, pushing dirt and rocks and ripping into rocks and hardpan with metal tracks on metal chains riding on metal rails and being turned by metal sprockets as it rolls over metal rollers and idlers is a whole bunch of metal on metal. It only stands to reason that, with no lubrication, these tractors are perpetually destroying themselves. Ad to that, certain operators who are jamming things back and forth without care and it's no wonder these machines are always in for repair. Yes, the cost of transport is enormous. I found a D9 that looked good half way across the US from where I need it in Nevada. I got all sorts of transport estimates and one - one, came in over $35,000 US dollars! The cost to move it is almost as much as the purchase price. I think Caterpillar ships their new units by rail and I can see why. Thank you for responding, Mike. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
from the few I have been around a 9g/h will burn around 200 gallons of fuel in 8hr's so thats also something to take into consideration
Like Scrub I'll throw my two cents in. IMHO you would be wasting your time going for a 9G or 9H. Anything you could find now is going to be 40 years old and pretty well Donald Ducked however well it has been looked after by previous owners. As Scrub says the rippers on the back end of the 9G/H were not Caterpillar's finest effort and hard production ripping will tear the *** out of those particular models. That's why back in the day we always hired in a contractor machine if we ever needed a major ripping project undertaken. "Why ***k up your own tractor when you can ***k up a contractor's machine for a very similar cost" was our motto. My vote would be for an early (as in non-electronic) high drive D8L/N or D9L/N. The high drive has much less in the way of ripper issues than the low drive tractors. Also for the type of work you say you're wanting to do I would have thought that a single-shank fully adjustable parallelogram-type ripper would be more what you need. IMHO you can't get ground penetration with a multi-shank in that type of ground although obviously I haven't seen your ground. In 40 years I can't recall any mining dozer being equipped with a multi-shank ripper apart from coal mining operations. If you want to know a little more about Certified Rebuilds I suggest to read this thread - HeavyEquipmentForums Despite the thread title this one may also shed some light on rebuilds - HeavyEquipmentForums If you want a copy of the Ripping Handbook drop me a PM with your email address and I'll gladly send it to you.
Yair . . . . Going off topic here for sake of conversation but, as I mentioned on a similar thread where one of our members was considering a large dozer for ripping in a quarry, is a dozer the best option in this day and age of excavators? I continue to be surprised at what can be accomplished with a thirty ton Hitachi and, in fractured blue stone, I reckon he was as productive as a 300 hp dozer with advantage of being able to load trucks. Such a machine must be equipped with bucket grabber as he needs to swap between single tine and bucket . . . I remember rassling buckets on and off with messy greasy pins. The quick change option is almost universal here but seems less so in the US. I had a demonstration of just how revolutionary these systems are when I had a young bloke on a little Kobelco take out about twenty trees that were shading our solar panels. He rattled in down the driveway with the tine in the bucket and one by one he ripped every tree so they pushed out clean and not one was broken off, rip tree, drop off tine, attach bucket, push tree, drop bucket, attach tine and rip next tree and so on. Very impressive and the bucket or tine were always in the right position, smooth as silk and the young feller reckoned he had never run a machine with out quick hitch, I'll post the pictures when I get the other computer up and running, apologies to O/P for going off on a tangent. Cheers.
In heavy ripping I would say you're looking at around 18-20 gallons/hour. For a newer model tractor (e.g. D9L/R) of the similar 400-450HP range as the D9G/H I'd say you would be looking at around 14-16 galls/hr in the same conditions.
Yair . . . This is an interesting conversation and I'll poke my bib in again for old times sake. In heavy pulling (timber clearing with chain) the power-shift G's would easily chew through fifteen (imperial) gallons an hour and, I am told, direct drives (what's left of them mostly on root ploughs these days) will even use a little more on that continuous full power application. Now, ripping is a different thing again. The O/P mentions he needs a three slot ripper. I dunno. As far as I am concerned the centre slot is there to drop a tine in when you can't pull two. I reckon you will get far better production straddle ripping with two tines rather than pulling a full house. That's just me though. . . and don't ever think a single tine even on a parallelogram ripper is anywhere near as effective as a proper four barrel single hook. Now, if you are in country where you can drop the hooks in and drive good luck to you and indeed a G will get through fifteen or sixteen gallons of distillate an hour. . . I mention distillate because I always reckoned they did a little better on black fuel. HOWEVER. If you are ripping tight but rippable rock you will find the hourly fuel burn is down because a good operator is only using the power when they need it and, lurching over the lumpy stuff, they spend time feeling their way with a foot on the decel. That was my experience any way from half a lifetime back. Cheers.
That is a H U G E consideration.
I greatly respect your opinion, Nige as well as all the others who have shared their thoughts. May I please repeat what needs to be done: 1. I need to rip alluvial which is small rocks, gravel, sand and mud all cemented together. For this, a 3-shank ripper is the most effective and efficient. 2. I need to rip hills comprised of phyllite, quartzite, shale, schist, granodiorite and hard *** quartz. For that, a single shank is what I need. Fortunately, with the exception of the quartz, the rest of the country rock on the hills is geologically double-folded and fractured. If it were solid rock or granite, I'd be SOL. Let me go a step further and discuss #1. I'm sure you gentlemen are familiar with metal detectors. Depending on the brand, they can reach anywhere from 4" down to 15" deep into the ground to detect gold. This ground does have lots of fine "picker" gold that I process through a closed-loop trommel but blessedly, much of the gold is in the form of raw pieces of gold. So the principle is simple. On the alluvial, scrape off 4", triangulate the ground and work the entire scraped surface with metal detectors - something the old timers couldn't do. Take off another 4" and repeat. For this, a 3-shank ripper going down 6-8" in the alluvium is perfect - hence, the need for a 3-shank ripper. Why not just run it all through the trommel? Because several pieces of gold have been found that exceed 10 ounces. Now, #2. Whole different scenario. Now, we are opening up the hillside and uncovering ore deposits down in the quartz. This stuff occurs n pockets and there is no clue where the next pocket might be. A big mining company would have drilled all the hills and then take them down according to the drill intercepts. It's me, my wife and son. I can't afford the $800-1.2 million investment to drill it out. Accordingly, on goes the single ripper and you take it down 10-15 inches. Now, a similar process. You grade down 4-6 inches. You walk the ground with the metal detector looking for evidence of a pocket. The material scraped off the top goes into the closed-loop wash plant. Rocks are sent to a small primary crusher and taken down to 1-inch size. Then the broken rocks go through a sag mill and finally out onto a shaker table. It sounds far more complicated in writing than it really is in practice. Hopefully, now you can see why we need both a 3-shank and a single-shank ripper working off a 3-shank ripper bar. Now, back to the subject. It sounds like a G or an H is not what I need to be finding. First, the issue of the ripper coming detached is a new one on me. Of course my experience is not your experience and that is why I asked for your counsel. I started at age 14 running a gas CAT. Click the magneto, engage the crank, hold the radiator with one hand and jump off the blade onto the crank with your foot and get the ____ out of the way because it liked to kick back like a mule. Later, I ran an old 6 and then a 7 skinning logs off the mountain. They weren't old then but as I look back now - they were old. Pony motor, hand clutch, tiller (which I really liked) frictions off the deck and brakes. A wonderful experience to operate that way. So that is my "limited" experience. Well, out of high school I operated a TD24 which had no business in the woods. After a close call getting a tree fallen across the cage, I turned about, took it back down to the landing, shut 'er down and thus ended my career as a logger! Hah! So what I've learned is to forget about a G or an H. Look for a D9 of a higher flavor - an L, an N or an R. Same with a D8. Using an excavator? Well, that defeats my purpose of taking it down a few inches at a time. If you're going to mine, I've learned there's two ways to do it. Go after it like Barrick, Newmont, Kinross, Freeport Mac or do it mom and pop. Mom and pop? That's me. One cat, one tracked loader, a backhoe, small wash plant, small mill and onto the shaker table - all done right at the point of extraction so I don't need trucks, drivers, excavator, fuel, rubber and the added capital purchase expense. Heck, the Cat might only work an hour a day - if that. The rest of the time is spent walking the ground with detectors, charging the wash plant and the crusher. So this dozer is of tremendous importance. It is also the most expensive part of this operation. I don't have $250-400,000 to spend on a dozer and that's why I was looking at the older units. Now, I've had a reality check. I sure don't need a piece of equipment that's perpetually in sick-bay. So I've never bought used equipment. Our skid steers and loaders were always new. What does a guy do? I can see if the chain is thin or worn uneven. I can look at the sprockets for chipped teeth or thin teeth. I can look for leaks around the finals underneath, the engine and the transmission - and I can see if the stack is blowing black most of the time not burning the fuel. But what about the engine? What about the transmission? What about these units that are covered with rust back east? The chains are rusted, the pins are rusted, the rollers and idlers rusted - how does that affect the viability of a tractor? I also know to look for a loose chain and to see how much the track adjusters are being deployed. Does all that make me an expert? No. Should I hire an expert and let that person do the looking? Probably, but they'd think I was nuts to say, "I need to buy a tractor I'm going to operate but I haven't the intelligence God gave a goose to know what to buy." First of all, the Hobbs means nothing. It may not work or it may be a new meter put in when an engine was changed. How do you know? It's not like the Hobbs in a helicopter which is documented and logged every time there is service. Service records? Duh. Most sellers don't have any. A high-hour machine that was lubed like crazy is better than a low hour machine that was neglected or abused. How do you know? Sorry to vent here but going out looking for a used cat is akin to going down town Reno and putting all my money on red. Who knows? Surely not me and that is why I joined this forum so I can get some sage advice. At least at age 70, if nothing else - I've learned to listen.
If you want a copy of the Ripping Handbook drop me a PM with your email address and I'll gladly send it to you.[/QUOTE] I'd love to know more and see an instruction manual, Nige but I'm new to the forum and haven't a clue how to send a private message. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
I'd love to know more and see an instruction manual, Nige but I'm new to the forum and haven't a clue how to send a private message. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell[/QUOTE] Click on Nige name right side side and select PM
If I wasn't taking down the surface a few inches at a time, an excavator would be an excellent second choice. As it is, when I encounter heavy quartz, I dig it out with the backhoe because the gold resides within the quartz. You are right - it's amazing what those little excavators can do! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
Yair . . . Gotcha Passionhawk1 but I am more confused than ever. What you describe is a standard "scrape and beep" operation very common in the Australian goldfields. I just can't get my head around the need for a D9 . . . four inch floors and such a machine are mutually exclusive. Three tines will do nothing but produce drag marks in the rock or conglomerate. Now a toothed bucket on a large trackloader or an excavator is a different thing again. Folks do exactly this style of operation with excavators, rough up four inches or so with a toothed bucket, scrape off flat and neat with the smooth edge, beep it over with the Garret, rinse and repeat. Cheers. *PS. I see your #30 post snuck in just as I posted . . . I say again "four inches of cut" and "D9" are mutually exclusive terms.
Two Questions - bring me up to speed. Off-road diesel in the US is red and can be purchased for less because it doesn't have the road tax added on. What is "black fuel"? Never heard that terminology. Second question - my ignorance. The CATS I worked back in the 60's never had a decelerator. How does the decelerator work? I assume it reduces your RPMs so the engine is spooled down. Does it interact with the clutch and transmission? I saw some operating demonstration videos trying to sell equipment and candidly, I was not impressed. The operator was "jamming" back and forth from forward to reverse in such a manner that the CAT lurched each time he changed directions. I may be an old guy but there's no way in heck changing directions while you are still moving in the opposite direction can be good for the tractor. Oh - any why isn't there an RPM gage on a CAT like there is on all modern-day equipment? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
Good observation. Here's the uneducated idiot again. South of this property down the valley, they are working a D6. The 6 doesn't have enough power to pull the shanks through the material so they really have to over-work the equipment. I imagine that a 7 or surely an 8 would be more conducive to loosening the alluvium. However . . . . . (drum roll-cymbal crash) . . . . unlike that operation, alluvium is just a part of this property. The majority are 9 hills with broken, fractured rock. I said to myself, "Self I sez, if that thar D6 is struggling in alluvium - I'm surely gonna need a D9 up here on these hills." That is the reason I thought a D9 was in order. Yes - no? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
So Nige, what exactly is a "non-electronic" machine? Is that one that still has the two "frictions" in the center? I see the newer controls are like a wand in the hand (I said wand ). Is the wand style the new electronic machine?
Yair . . . . PassionhawkI No uneducated idiots here mate . . . just two old codgers trying to get their heads around an issue from different sides of the world. Back in the fifties and early sixties Cats were different because they cranked with a pilot (pony) engine, they had precom chambers and capsule injectors and they ran on "back fuel". All other diesels (apart from the crude oil Bulldogs and such like) ran on dieseline or distillate, same thing different name depending if it was Mobil or Shell. Just what the black fuel was I have no idea, but it was black, some batches clogged filters some thing shocking and the Cats loved it and ran with a different crackle. It was a little cheaper than the more highly refined distillates but had a higher flash point, when lighting a fire it would light off with a "whump" like dropping a match in petrol (gasoline). It could gell on frosty mornings and was eventually phased out and we ran them on distillate with (to my mind) an increase in fuel consumption and a drop in performance. I don't think I ever ran a large crawler without a decelerator. On the Allis's and Cats of the day it was just a foot operated reverse throttle . . . nothing to do with the clutch and transmission. In operation the hand throttle was pulled wide open and the engine speed/tractor speed could be regulated when picking up a scraper, pushing a tree and so on with the foot pedal. Apparently, on the later gear, full power direction changes are permitted but it wouldn't work for me. As I say I struggle to envisage your operation . . . the way your post reads it seems a D6 is struggling to rip four inches deep, that can't be so. Cheers.
Well, the alluvium is made of sand, gravel, small rocks, thin shale pieces, a mica schist with gray mud and it's all cemented together. The deeper it goes the harder it gets. They're ripping it with three smaller shanks with two barrels but it's not easy at all. From these discussions, I've gathered that the D9G and H models were not all that great when it came to ripping. Between fuel usage of approximately 50 gallons every two hours and the danger to the equipment of the ripper pulling apart the axle housing, sounds like I need to re-evaluate the model of CAT we should purchase. As for the black fuel, it sounds more like bunker oil. They burn that in oil-burning steam locomotives. It is stove oil essentially. Sometimes it burns hot and other times, if they get a low-grade mix, it's all the locomotive can do to climb a hill without making several stops to build up steam pressure. Is that possible? I like your description of how the CAT engines had a different "crack" when they burned that fuel. Sounds like it was capable of making a higher BTU. Perhaps BTU is an inept description. What I mean is that it burned hotter as a fuel.
The last D9H was made 37yrs ago, all the good-deals, i.e. cheap purchase price for maintained G-H dozers are over. The advertised D9G-H dozers on Machinery Trader for example are overpriced, 1 D9G in Nevada with unknown problem (head gasket-cracked head) for $25thou...even that would be a crap shoot because the cylinder block can be worn beyond salvage-repair. When you get into these old dozers sometimes the basic tractor main case is totally out of spec, i.e. worn bevel gear bores, pinion bores, dead axle bores, etc. Cat never offered Certified Rebuild for D9Gs, Certs started with D9H 90V75000. The last D9G Cat Dealer repaired Transmission-Torque Divider circa 1978 price was $37,000.00, they didn't exchange the oil cooler so that turned into a do-it-over again job! Look for a D8L-9N / D9L-10N with 4 barrel multi-shank ripper, the machines are being scrapped.
Thank you. Lots of good information here. I've really gotten the "message" about the older larger Cats. I saw the one with the cracked head and I thought to myself, "If that's all there is wrong with it - why wasn't it fixed?" I'm seeing D8Ls and D9Ls in the $60-120,000 range on Machinery Trader. Is there any book that lists the FMV on these used CATS? Now you mention that the D8L-D9L and even 10's are being scraped. Really? I thought CATS could be refurbished over and over and over? Why do you say they are being "scraped"? Do you know (or does anyone know) how many average hours an engine, transmission, torque converter, and finals can or should last? When I see ads that say "Only 6000 hours on the engine" - that does not seem like a sweet deal to me but then, I have no idea. Thank you so much for your comments, Jim Mitchell
I would be dubious of repairs mentioned in their ads without documentation, maybe even then. I think an engine or transmission should be good for 12-15 thousand hours.
Really - that many hours? That's amazing! I had no idea. As for the repairs, that's very good advice. If they don't have service records then, it's best to take a pass. Thank you so much for responding. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
As far as fair market value, that is really tricky. It depends on the condition of the machine. I suggest going and physically viewing as many machines as you can. Go see some really high priced units and some bargain basement junk. You'll start to see the difference. I think in your case, the condition of the undercarriage is probably the most important factor. It's the biggest expense on the machine and it's easy to evaluate. Use your best guess and what information you have available to get a tractor with good internals. I wouldn't trust hours or hour meters on a machine over 10 years old.
If you find a particular machine you are interested in, your Cat PSR can run a check on the serial# and provide what history is available in Cat's system. If repairs have been done by Cat they will show up which may give some clue on the component history.
You know, that's a great idea about looking over a lot of machines. There's a place about three hours away that has over 30+ used tractors for sale. Great idea! Even those listed on the internet, I have already begun to recognize a thin chain, a chain with uneven wear or sculpted edges, sprockets with chunks missing out of the teeth and those with very thin teeth. Another thing I look at is the slack in the track and how far the tension adjuster is pushed forward. I look for leaks around the final drives and grease marks around everything including the hydraulics. What else do you look for when examining a Cat? How can you tell if the rollers and the idlers are good? You can't see the rail - or at least I can't see the rails in the pictures. Something else is pride of ownership. If I see a sloppy tractor that's torn up inside, I have to assume that the person who owned it had little regard for the value of his equipment. Small deal - true but still, it's a good sign of what might have gone on with the rest of the tractor. I've seen some beautiful older tractors with the original paint. Yes, they are faded and have a few minor dings and scrapes but you can clearly see that someone cared enough to keep them up. These are good suggestions. Thank you so much!
Really? I assumed Cat would just as soon give a rat's behind less about the used market. They're trying to sell new iron - not help little guys like me find a good used tractor. Am I right or wrong in that assumption? Do they have a database of Cat-authorized repairs? That would be something - if they let that sort of information out. Of course, I just saw an ad for a tractor that said it had a "complete Cat authorized rebuild" with zero hours. The exhaust manifold was cracked and open, the chains were scraped and sculpted and there was black grease-dirt on the engine. Made me laugh. I'm not a mechanic but common sense tells you that the first thing you'd do before an overhaul would be to steam-clean the engine.
A few comments in no particular order on what's been posted since I last replied......... 1. In the depressed market that exists these days any Cat dealer simply wants to make sales. New or used it doesn't matter to them, they want to shift iron. The *** has fallen out of mining which is where the easy bucks were always made sales-wise, so now they have to earn their commission by being more flexible. 2. Regarding Certified (as opposed to "authorized", whatever that is) Rebuilds go back to my post #22 on Page 2 and check out the photos. That's a Certified Rebuild, no ifs buts or maybes. 3. Our mining tractors went 15-16000 hours on original components (apart from undercarriage) before they went off for the Certified Rebuild Process. They were working 24/7/365 so that amounted to being about 3 years old when they went for rebuild. I'd guess they will get a 2nd rebuild at 6 years and possibly a 3rd as well before being pensioned off. Total machine life would be in the region of 60k hours by which time the frame (chassis) would most likely be starting to get a bit tired. 4. Any machine that has been on more than a single-shift operation will have had multiple operators and that tends to show in terms of the cab interior being pretty well torn up. Done's mean to say the machine itself is in a bad state though.
Why Scraping machines...root cause EPA Air Quality Regulations, i.e. diesel (gasoline, all petrol-based fuels) exhaust and crankcase particle emissions; if the States receive Federal Highway Funding they have too comply with the EPA Regulations. Non-Electronic engines with mechanically controlled fuel systems are Tier0, we’re at Tier4 Final now. How the EPA Air Quality Regulations affect Nevada small scale mining operation (low annual hour machine usage), I’ve no idea. I would investigate before purchasing any machines that could have regulatory usage issues!
Back then CAT equipment was expected to operate in remote and primitive areas, where oil was perhaps not so well refined, and the less refined grades were probably cheaper. #3 which is typically no longer available and #4 fuel oil are a mix of both lighter and heavier components and will provide more btu's. I seem to recall CAT provided timing corrections for the heavier fuel types? One of you OLD cat guys have that information? LOL.
Cat dealers are usually strong in the used market they would be glad to look up machine history tell your salesman that your looking to spend money and he might buy you lunch(; So you can hash out some ideas some of these guys are real good and familiar with your soils and similar operations Catused.com has some ripper tractors
Gentlemen: I came into this forum as a newbie with the idea in my head that I needed to buy either a D9G or H because they were big, they had 4-barrel rippers and they were well within my budget. Man, did I get a wonderful education. I thought I knew some basics about tractors - hah! Turns out I didn't know diddly-squat compared to most of you. I am grateful and honored that you shared your ideas, your opinions and your knowledge. So what am I going to do? One member mentioned in private that if he were me, he'd rent a CAT for a week, doze and scrape around the property to see what works and doesn't work in my soil conditions. Moreover, he suggested I put the machine to good use and stockpile some material to be processed while I decide which machine would be best to purchase. I will try to rent a older D8 (if that's possible) with a three-shank ripper bar with three tines. If it does the work like a piece of cake, then I can consider down-sizing or upsizing, depending on the results. It was also suggested I check out a few used tractors. I have started to do that and already, can start to pick-out the wheat from the chaff. I've been a bit reluctant to contact the local CAT dealer until I have a couple more weeks of looking around under my belt. Not-with-standing, I'll give 'er a go and expect great results from the effort. Always gotta think positive. Wow. I learned about black fuel. I learned that the older D9s are thirsty critters that are prone to suck a man's wallet right out of his pants. We have a few legal bordellos here in Nevada with charming ladies that will do the same thing! I found out that older D9s were not exactly celebrated for their propensity to rip. Seems the apparatus sometimes liked to snap the bolts off the back or crack the rear axle housing. I learned a new mining terminology from Scrub Puller in Australia called "scrape and beep" which is to take just a few inches off the ground at a time (scrape) and then run over it with a metal detector (beep) to check for gold. I know that in California, those poor buggers have had to contend with the EPA, the Air Quality Board and flaming environmentalists that are more numerous than rattlesnakes in Texas. In Nevada? Well, Nevada is and has always been "miner friendly." If the property was in a populous county such as Clark County in the south (Las Vegas) or Washoe County in the north (Reno-Sparks), then emissions would be of concern. I'm so far out that the antelope gather by the roadside once a week to play a game of pinocle to see if a car will drive by. None-the-less, that was an excellent caution that I will not ignore. Thank you, StanRUS. Nige, you called it like it is. No doubt I'm not the only forum member who has grown wiser from your excellent advice. Damn the EPA. Nige says I want to buy a tractor that pre-dates the new computer-controlled models. Works for me! CDUB, Jonas, Lantraxco, mht1156, Clintm and Delmer, thank you all for your good advice and counsel. I've written it all down behind my ear in the memory banks and I'll put it to good use. I'll be back from time to time to ask more dumb questions and get additional direction on which way to go. Meanwhile, I'll close for now and ask one final question on this particular thread: So how'd you guys like the debate? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
Yair . . . Gotcha there Passionhawk1 . I think I and all folks who participated in the discussion appreciate your considered reply and most would be interested to see what you come up with in the weeks to come. Please update your thread if possible and as always some pictures of the operation would be nice. It sounds a sensible plan to rent a machine to determine what works for you. The moderators frown on political discussion so I can't really comment on the last query except to say that even down here in Australia it does seem to come up in conversation. (grins) All the best with it. Cheers.
Hey Scrub Puller: I just threw that in because I knew it would get everyone laughing. I can assure you, in comes up in conversations a lot here too. Yes, I'll throw in some pix if they allow that. While I have your attention, what is a DIRECT DRIVE Cat and how does it differ from a CAT that is not direct drive?
When you all began talking about black fuel, I at first thought of used motor oil as a fuel. Dad told me back in the "day" when they changed oil in the old TD's that they put it in the fuel tank then filled it up with diesel fuel. He said that the old operators manuals told you to do exactly that, IH was "green" before it was even heard of! Direct drive is a gear banger trans with a clutch, and no torque converter.
Yair . . . Direct drive (as we call it here) is a machine that has no torque converter or fluid drive between the engine and transmission . . . that is to say just a clutch on the back of the engine driving into a multi speed manually shifted gearbox. Over the years Caterpillar and other manufacturers have offered variations on the theme. Allis Chalmers for instance arranged a clutch to drive a torque converter which drove into a two speed and reverse manually shifted transmission. . . Caterpillar tried the same caper with less success as torque converters worked better at twenty one hundred revs than they did at twelve hundred. Then of course Cat bought out the three speed power-shift which became the industry standard. Direct drive still has an application in agricultural and root ploughing tractors as they are more efficient and tend to run cooler without the heat loads of torque converter and hydraulic transmission. Personally I like them as the machines are responsive and agile and a different beast entirely to power shift. Cheers.
So let me tell you, what you describe is precisely how the first gas CAT I operated was shifted. You had a clutch lever on the left and a regular stick shift transmission. No clutch on the floor - all with the left hand clutch. Wouldn't that be more fuel efficient to have a direct drive like that? As I recall, you started to ease into it with the clutch so you didn't lurch the tractor. When you felt it start to grab, you'd push through quickly so it didn't burn the clutch. When I first learned, I remember heading for a 40' vertical embankment and I started stomping the floor with my left foot to disengage the transmission - but there was nooooooo pedal. Yesssireeee! I pulled both frictions all the way back in my lap and found the brake. Dang near went off the bank. Totally forgot about the clutch. My dad was sitting next to me. He was trying to learn to operate by watching me. He turned, gave me the "look" and boy I didn't make that mistake again. I'm sure he was putting pucker marks in the seat just like I was doing - hah. So I can see where the TC is far more forgiving. I don't like to lurch a vehicle before I bring it to a stop anyway so yeah . . . . a speed shift would be in order. Do the newer direct drive Cats use a foot or a hand clutch? Heck, I bought an old long-nose White Western Star 10 yard dump truck a few years back to build road on the ranch and I loved it. Five speed transmission and a 3-speed brownie. Man, I was shiftin' gears like a tree full of owls and hadn't traveled but half a block. That old truck didn't have synchromesh gears. They were square and let me tell you - if you threw a shift and missed, that &^%$#@)+@ truck would make you the sorriest sucker that ever walked the face of the earth. Only way to get her back in gear was to come to a complete stop and start over. I did that a time or two in an intersection until I got it down pat. That's when you start sweating bullets in traffic. Horns blowin' - people yelling and giving you the finger and you're there talkin' to the truck. Yup, done that. So is a direct-drive to be embraced or avoided? For what I'm doing, there's no timetable. I guess shifting back and forth four times on every round trip would get old after awhile but frankly, I love to operate equipment. As we all know, some people have no knack for it. Myself, the more I can do the better I like it. Thanks so much! - jm
Your Dad was probably right about throwing oil into the tank. Those old diesels would burn almost anything.
Yair . . . Gotcha Passionhawk1 . My knowledge was mainly with Cat and Allis Chalmers machines which all used a master clutch operated by the left hand. I think International did likewise and the others were a mixed bag. Certain models of Case, Fowler, Cletrack and others may have had foot clutches. The knowledge on this site is Encyclopaedic and there are folks on here who will know. I have been out of the game for many years and doubt any manufacturer has built a direct drive crawler tractor for some time except for agricultural applications . . . I believe you would be best served by power shift. Cheers.
In my humble opinion direct drive needs a long stroke low rpm engine with a torque curve like a cliff, when you pull into a cut you can hear it pull down and beller like some ancient beastie. Torque convertors as Scrub mentioned allow the use of smaller higher rpm engines because of the sort of automatic reduction in speed as you gain torque. The engines still pull down some but you're gaining about half a gear as the torque loads up and does it's thing rather seamlessly. A direct drive would probably shine in a slot dozing application like removing overburden in a coal mine, but hey, Obama pretty well shut those all down here I think, can't have all us subjects, er, citizens using up electricity and warming the globe, gotta leave that to the rich and political flying around burning tanker loads of kerosene on the way to all those green summits. Green is the color of money yeah? Sorry, wandered off there....
Yair . . . I hear you lantraxco but I always remember the direct drive HD16 to be a nice tractor and I think they were naturally aspirated and ran at about eighteen hundred . . . six hundred or so RPM higher than a typical Cat of the era. We learnt our way around those transmissions and, with a dab on the PCU to slow things down and, a blip on the decel we drove them like trucks on long scraper hauls . . . happy days. (grins) Cheers.
All you talking about stick trannies in cats and no mention of the Johnson Bar?? Another thing to remember on the stick cats w/ hand clutch: If you plan to be off the seat for awhile and leave the engine running, put the tranny in neutral and engage the clutch. The clutch pilot bearing will love you for it and if you have to replace the pilot brg you'll respect it afterward!! For my money I'd look for a well cared for D8-K w/ a 2 shank paralellogram ripper. Mike
Yair . . . ol'stonebreaker . I had never heard of a 'Johnson Bar' on tractor till I got on the internet . . . I always associated it with steam. In my experience, here in Australia, it was just a 'forward/reverse stick' and a handy one at that. You are dead right about the clutch of course. Cheers.
That sounds like a good option to me, especially if the neighboring outfit is getting by with a D6. Don't see any up for auction right now, but there have been many military D8k's up for sale on http://www.govliquidation.com/ or on http://www.govplanet.com/ They most all have rippers and excellent undercarriages. Here are a few past auction results, but I've seen quite a few in much nicer condition: http://www.govplanet.com/jsp/s/search.ips?k=D8k&sm=1&**=1
I'm sure the forward/reverse stick here in the states got it's name from the steam age. That's all I've ever heard it called. In the last few yrs here it's been used to name a human penis, LOL!! Mike
Now a Johnson Bar I know something about. That's your forward/reverser in a steam locomotive. While I experienced Cats as a young man, I've spent the majority of my life as a film Producer. As such, I've produced several down-the-road entertainment stories about steam locomotives. Three different films on the SP 4449 which was the Freedom Train in 1976 that toured the USA with the US Constitution. I've shot the 700 out of Portland, Oregon, all the V&T engines, The UP 844, the Big Boy, Western Maryland RR, the 765 Nickel Plate Road engine out of Ft. Wayne, the 601 from Northstar Rail, the Queens engine out of BC, the Ghost Train out of Ely and a lot more. I had the humbling honor of being a "Hog Head" for ten minutes running the SP 4449 between Albany, Oregon and Eugene. What a thrill!!!!!! Yes, I think we all know the other reference to a Johnson!
May we talk about the paralellogram, please? I looked at those and there's no way to adjust the angle of attack on the ripper shanks. They are usually in a locked, fixed position with the hydraulics only used to apply downward pressure on the ripper frame. I know what when the tooth enters the ground, you want it to be somewhat vertical so it can get down quickly into the earth. Once it's got depth, you want to adjust the shank to be slightly forward of center for the best angle of attack. That's the control you get with a 4 barrel ripper that you don't seem to get with a paralellogram frame ripper. Is that correct?
Now that's something I hadn't thought about - a government auction. That's how I bout my old 10-yard White-Western Star truck. It was a beauty!!!! You're right. I'll bet the undercarriages are very good and they maintain the heck out of those government vehicles. Thanks for the link. I'll check that out. Kindest Regards, jim mitchell
Yair . . . . That's correct Passionhawk1 But its still better than one of these. . . . Cheers,
Lot of script here for Mr Passionhawk to read up on, but my thoughts are a bit off due to the driver skills??? but I would think a D8K with a single shank Kelly style ripper would be the easiest to get your hand in operating, the D8K is simple to pilot and the 1 shank is easy to control without getting tied up with chunks of block stone getting tucked up under the hook, as for in field repair take a peep at Caterpillar Sprocket Removal in Shop Talk, as there is no need to go any place to rebuild or repair near anything on a D8 or D9 other than machining, every thing can be done to these tractors on the spot they stand on as I do it all the time.
A lot of this country runs on coal. Big supply, easy to mine, hard to imagine coal being eliminated.
Well, I've learned a great deal from this forum and have followed all the links. As for driver skills, I did relate my first time out with my father when I was 14 and driver skills were non-existent at that time. Since then, I've operated several tractors and frankly, I feel most comfortable with brakes and frictions. It just feels like better control than just using the clutch levers only. I'll keep watch on the government auctions. I noticed they have a D7 coming up for sale in Reno where I live but it doesn't have a ripper. Too bad because it is so close. It's a relief to know that service can be done in the field because hauling these tractors is an expensive proposition. Thanks so much for your comments, tctractors . Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
Hello again, Scrub Puller . Now when you say - "better than one of these" - you are referring to the single shank without the paralellogram frame, is that correct? Are these really like nipples on a boar hog? I've seen several tractors with that style of ripper. And another question: tctractors mentioned the use of a Kelly-style ripper. That's the big extended hook frame with one shank and a 2 barrel hydraulic pushing the frame down. Are those known to be as good as a 4 barrel ripper? They still seem to lack control of the shank to adjust the angle of attack.
Yair . . . That hinge style ripper on the D8h had pivoting tines and would have to be the biggest abomination Cat ever made. Cheers.
Good to know, thanks.
I guess the term "parallelogram" must be a regional dialect thing as that's all I've ever heard the adjustable ones called. Mike
It was my impression that the paralellogram config was the one with 2 barrels for downward pressure on the frame and ALSO , the fixed metal arms that keep the shanks in the same position whether the frame is raised or lowered - but no shank adjustment. Yes-no? - jm
Yes, parallelogram is four links, two cylinders typically for adjustment up and down, the ripper shank is always dead vertical in relationship to the machine. The four barrel, two of the links are replaced by cylinders allowing for adjustment of the ripper shank angle.
Yes you're correct! 4 barrel provides superior penetration by moving the ripper points toward the back, then better breaking of the material by moving the points toward the front. If you leave the points pointing rearward you'll wear the point off and the shank, shank protective boot because it is dragging, by rotating towards the front the points are self sharpening. When ripping really hard material, use every point of the compass!
To me an adjustable angle ripper is the way to go. That way you can a) use the angle cylinders as a giant prybar to lever difficult rocks out of the ground and b) the angle of attack of the ripper tooth/teeth can be varied to get optimum ripping performance depending on how the grain of the rock is angled. BTW before someone says the shank is upside down the machine was new and that's how it shipped from the factory.
Another consideration for the OP, WINTER USAGE enclosed cab with good working heater...N.E Nevada? gets chilly, sitting exposed on a dozer is miserable.
Yair . . . Maybe, but it costs. I always reckoned gloves and muffs and balaclava gave more bang for the buck. Cheers.
Yair . . . Going O/T with apologies to O/P. Ripping hard rock was never a big part of my career but I did a few thousand hours mostly on D8's and smaller. I must say that having put some time in watching excavators in road cuts it seems to me, these days, a similar weight excavator with a tine and bucket can be more effective in a road cut than a similar weighted dozer. The application is obviously much easier on the operator and probably the machine and of course there is the advantage of being able to pull the batters and load into trucks. I certainly would not have liked to have been smoking a D8 tine on some stuff a thirty ton Hitachi handled with relative ease. What do you fellers reckon? Cheers.
Hello Nige: I didn't think the picture was upside down. I thought it was an arrow pointing to where I need to sit!
Cold in winter and hot in summer. My odds of getting a 4-barrel, rock guards and an EOROPs are close to zero. If I can get the 4-barrel and rock guards, I'll build my own enclosure if I must.
Can an excavator move the same volume in the same amount of time as a dozer?
Yair . . . Yes Sir, that is the question. Rather than "time" I am inclined to substitute "cost". My gut feeling is in some applications/situations they can. There are folks on here such as Nige and JDOFMEMI who can give a pretty definitive answer. Their opinions would be interesting. Cheers.
For winter use the old cats from D8-K and back have reversible fans so in the winter you set the fan to pull and put the canvas curtains along each side of the engine so the heat blows back on you. Summer you reverse the fan to blow the heat out the front. been there, done that!! Mike
Rock Guard changed to Track Guides; we mostly remove them on older Cats D8s-D9s, Komatsu dozers; ripping daily wears out the rearmost rollers because the weight is pulled down at the rear of the machine. Some non-OEM bottom rollers wouldn't last over 60hrs...circa late 90s
Any port in a storm, right?
So StanRUS, you removed the rock guards? Aren't they suppose to keep rocks out of the rollers and also keep the sprockets clean of rocks between the chain and the sprocket teeth? 60 hours on rollers from ripping? Whoa! That's major time off and big expense to change one.
Yair . . . The biggest hassle with changing rollers is removing rock guards and I'd be leaving the suckers off too if I was changing rollers every few days. I must say I recall no such sixty hour issues when I was pulling hooks. I believe StanRUS is on the money . . . "rock guards" is a misnomer but (I believe) they are effective in-as-much-as they can preserve roller flanges by helping to keep worn and snaky chains a little straight. Cheers.
Look @ the D10T photo posted by Nige, no rock guards. The articulating Boggies have a bolt on track guide...very similar also are newer Komatsu dozers. 60hrs roller failures were caused by using Berco and Chinese manufactured rollers trying to pinch pennies on older dozers; they literally just come to peaces from the continuous impacting of running on rocky surfaces. RT Korean manufactured undercarriage parts provide reasonable service life and Berco has improved after being taken over by ThyssenKrupp AG. For larger High Drive dozers D8 up, OEM undercarriage still gives the best ROI and field service is available if required!
Although they are colloquially referred to by all in the industry as rock guards in "The Book" their official name is "Track Guiding Guards" ............. QED.
Maybe passionhawk needs to contact jakeharrington, the OP of "D8-H worth thread. He has 5 of them but no mention of rippers. He's a long way from Nevada. Mike
Passionhawk, I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest. As mentioned by Scrub and others a good sized excavator will out rip a dozer but becomes uneconomic when they move the same dirt more than once unless it's in a confined area. So I'll put this to you, get and excavator to do the primary ripping and stacking then use a wheel loader to move the material to required destination (muck heap or processing plant). Doing this I believe will lower your operating costs by heaps. Just my 2 cents worth and good luck which ever way you choose.
Re: Fair Market Value: Due to the widely varied condition of machines, there is no simple answer. Case in point, a recent auction in CA had six D-10T dozers. All were within a year or two in age, but in condition there was a huge gap. Three were cleaned, painted and had new UC. Three did not, and looked worn. Careful inspection revealed a large discrepency in condition of the first three. One which looked like the lesser visually was the best on close inspection. The best had a transmission failure before it moved a blade of dirt, and the third had a sickly engine, along with so many other issues it was not worth looking at. The sale prices ranged from $350K to $220K for the "clean" ones, and the unpainted, well worn went for $150K. Buyer beware and make sure someone with a good knowledge of these machines inspects them before laying down hard earned money. There are lots of potential problems that can hide on a big cat until you put it to work. Part of my education was being involved in purchasing a D-9N dozer many years ago. It was shipped to the job, and found to have many problems. It went to the dealer for $150K in repairs before it could go to work. That said, the same machine is working, 15 years and one more rebuild later, and due to being pre electronics, it is one of the most reliable. I plan on rebuilding it again in a year or so for its third life with me, and at least two prior to me. As for repairs, you need someone local to do basic repairs and maintenance. The dealer rate is in the ball park of $140 per hour, port to port, or from the time they leave the shop until they return. In addition, they charge mileage as well. 200 miles away and you could have a $2,000 bill before they ever work on the machine. As for Cats getting scrapped, when they no longer provide an economic benefit to their owner, they get scrapped or sold. Different owners have different levels at which this happens. There are large machines scrapped at 15,000 hrs because of poor care, and ones still running at 100,000 hrs, with good care and several rebuilds. For the operation you describe, I would look for a D-9N or R, D-8N or R, or possibly a good condition D-8L or D-9L. The L will be hard to find in good enough condition to last for you. The last D-9L engine I was in was $85,000. Go into track frames, equalizer bard, pivot shaft, etc, and the money adds up fast, especially if you have to hire it done. A properly rebulit Cat engine in a large dozer should see 10,000 hrs even in bad conditions, and 18,000 hrs with excellent care, but who did it? was it done correctly? If it has no documents or warranty, buyer beware. Just becuse it only has 6,000 hrs does not mean it will last more than out the driveway. You are on the right track by wanting a Cat, as they are the only thing that you can get good parts and servive for once thay are past their prime. Good luck with your venture. In my opinion, the only ones that can get by with old large dozers on a small scale are people that are their own mechanic, and quite adept at it.
And that sums it up in a nutshell............... Apart from how big a machine the OP actually needs to rip what he wants to rip that is.
Jerry has totally hit the nail on the head.
Hello Jerry: I have been off and gone for a looooooong time. I so appreciate your insight and recommendations. I came within a whisker of buying a D8L. The chain looked good, the sprocket teeth were thick and unchipped, the pads were not too bad and I didn't see any oil around the engine. Took the cap off and didn't see any blow-by and I thought it was good. An older gentleman like myself saw me looking it over and struck up a conversation. I quickly learned the clutches were bad, the finals were dry, one rail was damaged and the retarder was malfunctioning. It was then I decided I would not purchase a machine without paying a 2nd disinterested expert to look it over. I got lucky. I also found a D9G that had really been cared for by the owner. Moreover, it was less than 200 miles from my property. Very tempting. After reading about the ripper problems in the D9G and D9H models and also the high fuel consumption, I passed with reluctance. It also seems prudent that I find an experienced mechanic close-by and build a lasting friendship with that fellow before I buy any iron!!!!!!!!!! Now, two questions: #1. Nige recommended that I keep with a machine with friction/clutch/brakes and stay away from differential control. I found that eliminates most of the machines manufactured after 1990 so that really narrows the field. Now, you have recommended to stay clear of machines with electronics. At what time period did the electronics kick in? I assume you refer to electronic ignition. #2. I found several D7 machines with extremely low hours. The military and county governments apparently like that size machine. Trouble with the D7 machines is that the 2-barrel rippers seem like they were intended to rip loosened gravel (joke) and nothing much more related to fractured rock or cemented conglomerate. From what I could tell, a person needs at least a D8 or more to do serious ripping. Is that generally true? Again, I greatly appreciate your insight, Jerry. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
. . . . . and it would seem that you could be quite selective with an excavator - picking it apart. These hills are filled with quartz veins that run all over like Fleur de lis.
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Jim, I know you don't have deep pockets, but would it be better to purchase an excavator to sort out the ore from the waste and have a D-7 to push the waste away. Or just an excavator and a good strong dump truck to haul either. I just went back and re-read your first post. Could the mill follow the excavator and use the dump truck or a small mine style haul truck such as a Cat 769 to haul away waste? this way you could stockpile the waste along all 4 sides of the claim leaving a notch for entry and exit and having it handy for reclamation. Mike
Dear Mike: Our minds must be in sync. While I was reading and responding to your post, it occurred to me that instead of a wheel loader (which goes through tires on the rocks), why not an excavator and a dozer? Selectively pick the veins with the excavator and push off the over-burden with a Cat. Cats without rippers are extremely inexpensive when compared to ones with rippers. What I have: A portable rock crusher on skids, a mill on skids, 3 short conveyors and a 4x8 shaker table I'm putting inside an office-trailer. I can easily move these around at will so they are always closely adjacent to where I am working the ground. By "close" I mean within 100 or so feet. I also have a small 8-yard dump truck and a small loader to feed the crusher. The property consists of several small hills shot-through with quartz. That is the gold source in lode form. Below that are a few gentle sloping and flat acres with alluvial. The alluvial has to be scrapped down a few inches at a time and that's where a ripper comes in handy to loosen the cemented conglomerates going down to the bedrock. In ratio, the small hills are 90% and the alluvial is 10%. All I'd need do is figure out how to scrape (loosen) the conglomerates so I could push off a few inches at a time with a dozer. You are correct. Deep pockets I have not. I am 70 years of age and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment would be foolhardy. You have really given me something to think about. Thanks you, Mike. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
You're welcome, Jim,!! Someone correct me If I'm wrong but I believe they sell single shank ripper attachments that attach to the back of the excavator bucket so you can curl the bucket all the way in and use the ripper. If you can keep the crusher within 100' of the trackhoe the little loader can pissant it that far eliminating the need for the dump truck. If you have a cat it can push the remainder of the ore pile into the loader bucket JMHO, Mike
I would get an excavator with a quick coupler and switch from ripper to bucket. Those bucket mounted rippers are a joke. A coupler wouldn't add much to the purchase price of a hoe and a ripper tooth costs about 3 or 4 thousand. Ripping with a hoe may not be as productive as a large dozer, but it will cost far less.
I'm with you on the equipment compliment as far as what is and is not needed. I did find a reasonably-priced D9G close-by that is in good mechanical condition. It looks as ugly as an old-man's butt - but, it has a 4-barrel ripper and an SU blade. I backed away from the unit because (1) I've learned from people with experience that the rippers were not all that good on the D9G machines and (2) it's apparently one thirsty bugger. However . . . (however being one of life's great eraser words that takes everything away that was said before it) . . . however, with an excavator working and doing the "picking", I would not be doing as much ripping and would not be so completely dependent upon a dozer. Therefore, the D9G would more be used for moving overburden to the perimeter of the work area - and the D9G is still a good, stout machine that can move a load. Now, if I had to use it 8 hours a day, then the fuel consumption would be a deal-killer. Now, I guess I'll have to jump to another forum and learn about excavators. Too bad because the folks on this forum have been nothing short of brilliant and extremely helpful. I've seen excavators priced from the ground clear up to the stars. There are some local units for sale. They are older Kobelco units. So for me, that introduces a new problem. I wouldn't know a "quick coupler" if it was stuffed half-way up my backside. Also, buckets that swivel seem to be very useful and I'm not sure the older Kobelco machines are so equipped. I just don't know. Another issue is size. How large must the excavator be? Is size measured by the weight of the machine or by the breakout force of the bucket? How much is enough? Obviously one of the little mini-excavators is far too small and I sure as heck don't want to purchase a PH shovel with a bucket that will easily hold 15 men and a St. Bernard. So my education continues. Thanks so much, Mike, Jim Mitchell
I'm thinking that if I am exceedingly fortuitous, I can get a used excavator and a used dozer and use the best of both worlds. I couldn't do that if I were purchasing new or nearly new. I've got to scout-around for a good local mechanic as well as someone who knows excavators so that they can judge potential from junk. Thanks for your comments!
Hi Jim, The D9G, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the ripper mounting per your job description. The machines we've had problems with were mining rocks 8hrs per day! Visually check the ripper mounting brackets too see if oil is dripping between the tractor case and bracket, if oil is dripping that indicates that the internal welded in threaded steel block is cracked. Also fire up the machine and check if both steering clutches will release, pull both clutches, apply both brakes and shift the machine into 3rd gear. If the clutches won't release that indicates that the internal teflon seals are worn and most times the pistons and bevel gear shaft bearing retainers. If you could find a knowledgeable mechanic in the area that would definitely be a big plus before purchasing used equipment! Regards Stan
I don't think you need to go to another forum to get educated about excavators. Most of the people commenting here are very knowledgeable on them as well. Yes they are classed by weight of the machine, and just like anything, bigger is better. A quick coupler allows you to change attachments from the seat of the machine. So for example, you can have a ripper tooth on to rip the material and change to bucket in about 10 seconds to dig the ripped material. Look at some machines online and you will soon see one. They are very common attachments these days.
So Stan, I'm going to repeat what you said, in my language, so we know that I truly understand. The D9G has a 4-barrel ripper. Big sucker. Big diameter hydraulics. Where the entire ripper assembly attaches to the rear case (axle) of the tractor, I'm going to look around all the edges of the ripper attachment housing to see if i can find signs of oil seep. Now, we're not talking about where the hydraulic sleeves (4) attach but rather, around the entire ripper housing up against the tractor. Secondly, I'm going to warm up the machine, pull back both clutches (frictions), apply the brakes and then shift from neutral into 3rd gear. With the frictions pulled back, the tractor should not move. Now, as I move the clutches forward and come off the brakes, I want to see if the clutches will engage and move the tractor. Is that correct? I will obviously do the same test in reverse when the tractor is moving. I will disengage the clutches and apply brakes to see if the machine will stop moving. I put an ad in the local paper looking for an experienced Cat mechanic in the area of the mine. I'm also thinking that I need not screw around with my limited knowledge of the larger Cats. I will look for an experienced operator and pay him to access the machine before I make the purchase. I'm really excited about the idea of combining a dozer with an excavator. Some of these veins are small. An excavator can do a much better job of picking apart the areas of mineralization. Moreover, with two machines, I can share the workload and keep from driving either machine into the ground. Thanks so much for your advice, Stan, Jim Mitchell I found an old used Kobelco SK330 LC. Roughly 82,000 pounds, a 238 Mitsubishi with a turbo. Big machine and it's not thrashed. Normal wear and tear.
Well, to be perfectly honest, everyone here has brought me out of the fog with good advice, links to information and good, solid suggestions. I'm with you. I don't think I could find a group of people better educated or more sincere than I have found here. So you say bigger is better. There are machines starting around 28,000 pounds up through 80,000 pounds and some even bigger than that. I assume when you say bigger that you mean machines that range between 35,000-75,000 pounds. Is there a reason why buyers don't like the really larger machines? Too heavy? Too bulky on the job site? Too hard to move? It seems the smaller machines are actually higher priced and seemingly, more in demand. Is that because a smaller machine is easier to use on a job site? So will a quick-coupler fit onto all excavator machines or is it a newer attachment intended for machines 10-years old and less? I can sure see the benefit. What about a thumb? Are all machines equipped with the controls to operate a thumb with a bucket? CDUB, thank you for the information. Dang! I want to get out there and move some dirt! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
All the factors you listed are reasons limiting the size of a machine someone may want to buy. They don't apply in your case. The only thing I see that would limit the size of machine you would want is how much production you need. I wouldn't look at anything smaller that an 80,000 lb. machine. If you are buying anything other than Cat I would check out the local dealer and check on parts availability. I know that parts can be very hard to source on some older excavators. Yes a quick coupler can be fit on any excavator. They are more common on newer machines because they have gotten more popular in the last 10-15 years. Not all excavators have auxiliary hydraulics to operate a thumb. They can be added, but I'm not sure what it would cost.
So I found several excavators with two excavators close-bye. A 1999 Kobelco 330 LC and a 1998 Cat 345B. The Cat's fuel tank is almost 200 gallons. At approximately 4200 feet elevation, I wonder how much fuel the Cat 345B would burn per hour? It's a big machine at almost 99,000 pounds soaking wet. I can't imagine needing a larger machine for mining and digging in rocks.
That 345 will move a lot of material. Plus parts would be easy to source. Probably easier to find a quick coupler for it if you had to in the used market. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jim. I've operated quite a few D9G to D9N tractors and have yet to experience major problems with bevel casings and ripper mounts. I also recall a newish D10N that cracked the casing. You won't find an old 9G/H without a few drops of oil around the back end.Some may have been cracked in their younger days and welded back up. This doesn't mean they won't do your job. As for fuel burn on the D9..........well,it moves a lot for what it drinks,therefore may only be needed for a few hours a day. My preference for your job would be an old D8H/K with a nice,simple Kelly ripper. Get a decent 40 odd ton excavator with a ripper attachment and you have the best of both worlds. Stick to Cat and you will recoup your investment when you sell up.
I've yelled at the computer screen more than once over the issue of fuel consumption in large machines. You aren't driving them to the corner store for a six pack. They move more material for the fuel they burn, they also move more for the time you spend doing it. There are job specific economies of scale that come into play of course, but in general your fuel cost per yard will be lower with a larger machine.
Perfectly said CDUB
Hello Nicky: I found a D8H that has a bad head gasquet. A few questions. Engines don't normally blow a head gasquet unless they are over-heated, the head is warped or both. Correct assessment? I ask because I see a lot of Cats advertised on Machinery Trader with blown head gasquets. I'm searching now for a mechanic to give me a repair quote. I know on a car engine, when a head gets warped, you either replace it with a new head or you mill down the head slightly to take out the warp. With a high-compression diesel engine, I don't think that milling is an option. So first step is to find out what size Cat engine is in the D8H and buy a new Cat head replacement. Second question. I know that when ripping, it is critical to have control of the ripper tooth angle. A D8H has a parallelogram-style ripper that only offers a fixed-ripping position. So I had a thought. Maybe a stupid thought. The upper control bars are fixed to the rear of the Cat and fixed to the top of the ripper. Why wouldn't a person take off those upper steel bars and replace them with hydraulic cylinders? All the pressure would always be a compressive force against the tractor. There would be no tension trying to pull away from the tractor. Yes, you would have a control issue but it seems that could be somewhat easily solved with a straight charge/discharge valve, a valve control lever and hoses that would adjust the tooth angle. What seems the most difficult would be finding an appropriate place to tie into the hydraulic system. Also would be an issue is that of the hydraulic pump - if it were strong enough to allow for the addition of the extra hydraulics. Maybe this is a really stupid idea but it sure seems more reasonable than buying a new Kelly Ripper. The Cat can be purchased for the right price, it is nearby and that would be the reason for the extra effort of fixing the engine and making it work. As for your advice about the excavator/Cat combination, I have come around to believing that would be the perfect combo. By checking the mechanical condition and buying the older equipment, it would reduce the total acquisition cost. I've operated a back hoe, 4-1 buckets, wheeled and tracked front-end loaders, the largest New Holland skid-steer and two older Cats with frictions and a pony starter motor. That is my dirt-moving experience. I have never operated an excavator. Clearly, I will soon be learning. So now comes a troubling decision. It seems that I will operate the excavator more than the Cat. The tractor will move around the over-burden. The excavator will ("delicately") pick apart the quartz veins and the surrounding wall rock. I found a Cat 345BL that weighs a hundred-thousand pounds and burns dang-near 15 gallons per hour according to the CAT specs. Ouch! Certainly, a 345BL is large enough to dig and has sufficient bucket break-out force from what I've read. But #@%+)%@! 15 gallons an hour? Even with red, off-road diesel that's over $175 USD in a 5-hour day. Scheesh! Maybe that's just the cost of mining, aye? I know that smaller excavators burn far less fuel - but is a small excavator really up to the task of mining? It also seems that a 345BL is not a machine that one associates with the word "delicate" or surgical with a 5-foot rock bucket! On the other hand, I know that one can pick-apart almost anything with a backhoe in a delicate manner and so perhaps one can do the same thing with a large excavator. I don't know because I've never operated one. Let's not forget, I'm not loading out eight cycling Haul Paks out of a pit in a 12-hour shift so I shouldn't have to run the excavator at full RPM. Maybe that saves a bit of fuel? The bigger machine would be welcome in those cases when the big breakout force is required. Your advice to stick with Caterpillar products is a good one. I totally agree. One reason people hate big excavators and larger Cats is the hefty transportation cost. In all cases, once this equipment is on site, we won't be transporting it ever again . . . . . I hope. Your comments or any others who know excavators and the D8H Cat would be appreciated. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Correct, engines don't randomly blow head gaskets. Engines are advertised as "bad head gasket" because that sounds better than all the other stuff that's really wrong with it.
So Delmer, does this make any sense to you? " . . . a head gasket leak that is pressurizing the coolant." As I think on it, a leak in a head gasquet wouldn't pressurize the coolant - it would depressurize the coolant making the exhaust blow volumes of white smoke from the glycol and water mixing with the hot exhaust. Delmer, I'm with you. I laugh at your assessment. You're absolutely spot-on. People always say, "It's just a blown head gasquet" when in fact, the problem is much deeper and more complex. Replacing a head gasquet sounds soooooooo easy, doesn't it? "Like a Sunday afternoon stroll down a summer lane." I believe that's how they once described FDS - a ladies hygiene spray. Thanks for the comment. I'm still laughing. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell
If you're diagnosing head gasket problems in an off-road diesel engine and coming at it from an automotive background, you're only going to get so far. The big difference is the wet cylinder liners. The liner flanges will suffer from erosion from not using the correct coolant, and early models suffer from the same problem at high hours even with good coolant. The result is what's called a "dropped" liner which relaxes the grip on the head gasket fire-ring. It's all (usually) fixable, but if you get away with a head gasket and new/skimmed head, consider yourself lucky.
Hello Cmark: There are two tractors. One is a '67 and the other is a '72. The '67 has a bad clutch and the '72 has the gasquet issue. I've heard the sad story about putting in the wrong glycol into a diesel engine. I'm glad you reminded me of how one can ruin the sleeves. I think both engines are 3208s in the D8H. I also think they are both 270 HP. I'm going to hire someone to inspect both rigs and give me an assessment. Yes, it's all fixable. Everything is fixable if you throw enough time and money at it. For my general knowledge, when did the "wet cylinder" issue go away - and with what model Cat engine? Thank you for your comment and observation. Good call. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
I am reading that a D8K is easier to operate than a D8H. Why is that? Were 1967 D8H tractors direct start or did they still start with a pony? Sincerely, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hi Jim, Been enjoying your thread here since you first posted, cheers, sounds like a fun project you're involved with there. Re. your last post, I used to owner-operate a '72 D8H. It was a great tractor to run, with the powershift. Throttle full on, right foot on the de accelerator pedal. Left foot on a brake pedal when needed, or pushing on both in the middle if inching forward. Left hand clutches, right hand on hydraulic levers. No trouble at all, easy. From my limited time on a D8K, when I was considering spending twice as much to upgrade from the H to a K was that they were more powerful (closer to 400hp I was told?) which probably makes some jobs easier, and if I remember right they had a combined clutch/brake handle. This looked the same, but had a two stage pull with the brake applied at the second stage. I wasn't too bothered by this extra feature, being quite happy to have a job for my left foot, but it may be easier to operate?? Maybe someone else will know, as I didn't have much time on it and may have it wrong! Cab wise the K had much more stylish cab, which might make you want to sit on the machine longer hours? The K I looked at was something like a '80 model or thereabouts, was somehow a more modern looking beast. If you can find a clean K in good order, they really seem to be a classic, but the H was simple to operate and pretty reliable, for me anyway. All the best, wish I was in your neighborhood as would be fun to scout about after a D8 again! John
Great post, John: Now I get it. The K was considered easier to operate because everything (clutch and brake) could be operated from the handle. That's a non-starter for me because I first learned with the long-handle frictions off the floor, brakes, hard clutch lever on the left in or out. So, that's no biggie for me. Short story. When I was 12 years old, I use to hitch rides with the log truck drivers into town. I lived waaaaay out in the mountains with no electricity, outhouse and baths in the lake. I was always fascinated to watch them go through all the gears with a 3-speed brownie. The engine cowling on those long-nose Petes, Macks and Autocars would shake back and forth and the torque of the engine would crank them to the side as they threw each gear. Thus, when I bought my first 12-yard dump truck, I got an old 15-speed White Western Star. What a thrill and a joy to walk through all the gears! Gears and pedals and clutches and tiller-control blades? It wouldn't be fun to operate any other way, IMHO. I'm going to do the excavator/tractor combination so I think the H models will be fine for dozing off over-burden. Really nice to read your experience level. One thing I'll do is install a different seat for comfort. I do know it's nice on later models with the seat canted sideways so it's easier for old guys (like me) to crane about and look back at the angle on the dangle of the ripper. John, I wish you lived closer bye too because I could sure use an experienced eye. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
The engine in a D8H is a D342. The D8K was 300hp with the same engine. It pushed the limit with that horsepower rating and generally wasn't quite as reliable as the D8H.
Thanks, Jim. Yes, I forgot about the seat. Was pretty basic on the H. I had the idea to change it, but never did. Perhaps it wasn't so bad in the end, it was some heavy duty shiny fabric so allowed you too change position fairly easy. Also, using all corners of your body to run it meant you had to sit more or less square on. I remember having a go on a D8L (1st of the high drives) this had the tiller on the left and did allow you to look over shoulder easier! On the excavator side of things, it would seem a great way to scratch out seams with more detail than a dozer, also may be more comfortable for turning over boulders compared to climbing over it all on a dozer. Just wondering if a 345 doesn't put you back in the D9G league regarding spare part cost, fuel etc. Great if you're using all that power etc, but if you doing a lot of 4" tickling about just wonder whether you're at any advantage with that size? I can see where a 15 ton machine might be smaller than the rocks, but something in the 320,325 or 330 size may be able to give you some power while still being something you'd grade with? I may be way off here, but reading your list of equipment it seems that a 345 is not matched to the size of your other machinery. Again, whichever one you buy, it sounds good to me. Did you say you know a good Cat mechanic? If you can find someone close by that knows their stuff, you'll be all set. These days that factor is top of my list when buying any machine, who can I buy parts from and who will help fix it if the repair is beyond me! All the best, John.
Hello d9gdon: The D8H Cats are both 270 HP with turbos. Surely enough muscle to move things about. I'm awaiting quotes for repairs of both machines. The machines have been well-maintained with a pile of service records. I spoke with the mechanic who has done all the maintenance and he will do the misc repairs. A company that does nothing but blocks will replace the head and do that work in the machine. Thanks for the HP information on the D8K. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Hello again, John: I make this observation. As for the older machines beating up the operator, consider this; It's one thing to doze a road or push a scraper. It's quite another to take back layers of ground and be watching for new quartz veins with gold. A guy gets so excited about what may lay under the next scrape that he doesn't have a mindset to feel the bumps, jolts and slams. Yes, the D8L and D9L were both highly recommended. If I coulda I woulda. Trouble is, I couldn't find any remotely close to the region with the right price. I found a primo D9H back east in Ohio. New Cat-installed engine, 95% UC, new pads, new finals but the transport costs were twice as much as the tractor itself! Crazy. The only thing enticing about the 345BL is that it's a Cat, it's close bye, mechanically sound, big enough to handle anything and the price is right. Even close bye, the transportation is enormous. There are much smaller machines much closer to me. They're in the 14-30 ton class and they're made in Braziliayugchinafangtagio. Not good when they're not a good 'ol Caterpillar. You know what the ladies say. "Ain't never been no darned diamond too big to wear." Can the same be said about an excavator? I mean, I can pick almost anything apart with just a backhoe. Lifting or sliding large boulders? Nyet. Breaking off big chunks of rock or sliding them out of the way? Double Nyet. I'm not fearful of the 345's size. Fuel consumption? Oh man, that's a choker at 15 GPH. I've got a mechanic who will bring the D8H tractors up to speed where they sit. Haven't found a local mechanic yet to work on the equipment once it hits the mine site. Sort of funny. The seller said, "You know, these D8s are two great machines. Only reason we're selling them is because these young kids we've got hired don't know how to care for the equipment. They slam 'em back and forth, lug them down, overheat the engines - you can't find any decent operators anymore. So we bought two new ones that essentially drive themselves and shut down when they're too hot or anything goes wrong. Otherwise, we'd still be using those two dozers. Still a lot of life left in them if a guy knows how they need to operate." I thought, "Leave it to me. I'm one of the pros from Dover." A famous Alan Alda line from MASH. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Funny, a customer of mine a decade or so ago mentioned to me a problem he had with an operator locking up the transmission of a D8, H or K I can't recall, but it would just kind of bind up and stop several times a day. Put the young operator on a newer machine, assigned a "guy with gray hair" to the old CAT, no more trouble. You take one at a time, wait for it to get happy, then when you're happy, you take another. Same goes with reversing, gotta wait for all the clutches and valve doohickies to align with the stars and all is well... rush them and somebody gets out of step and the marching band runs into the goalposts... YMMV
Lantraxco, that's so funny and sooooooo true. You either "feel" the equipment or ride the bus, right? I had an old White Western Star with a 15-speed. I bought it from the Forest Service in Hang town. Old Scotsman told me, "I'm the only one who's brave enough to drive this darn rig. She's beautiful but she's humbled so many of our drivers that the rest of the guys refuse to drive it. That's why they're selling it. Breaks my heart." It had an interlocking rear end which put the rear wheels in sync and that truck would climb anything you were brave enough to try. Well, I won the auction and I drove it back to Reno. Next day, I left the studio to get it serviced. I got to the first busy intersection, double-clutched and missed it by a country mile. No matter what I did, that bugger wouldn't slide into gear. I double clutched again, I revved - tried the next gear, went back to the first, revved some more and that sucker had my lunch right there on the spot. People are honking at me and swerving around the truck and giving me the one-finger salute. My butt is sucking munch-marks into the hard leather seat as sweat poured off my forehead. Had to bring that SOB to a complete stop in the middle of the intersection and start all over again from scratch. I mean, a COMPLETE STOP and then wait about three beats for the old girl to calm down. By that time the light had changed, of course. I felt about as tall as the little plastic man who sits atop a wedding cake. From that point on, I got my head pulled out of my backside, paid attention to what I was doing, listened to the engine and never had another problem. So yeah, if you don't have the feel, you can quickly end up as the main meal. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Great line from a great movie! Even though I've never known if Dover was famous for pro's or if he was just making it up? The 345 seems to tick some of your boxes Jim, and is undoubtedly a great machine. If it has a quickhitch fitted and you can pick up a ripper tooth for sensible money, all the better. You may have to restrain yourself to only scrape 4" at a time though! From the cab it'll look like you're tickling the dust! Regards, John Also thanks for D9GDon for putting me straight on the K hp, seems I was being fed a line by the salesman, or my ears were blocked from staring at a shiny D8K...
John, I will continue to look for something else a bit smaller. If I can't find it, then I'll bite the bullet on the 345BL. I'll use the CAT for scraping and the Excavator for digging. It's got a 5-foot bucket with teeth as big as a dinosaur! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Yair . . . Passionhawk1. That bought a smile . . . I remember the trials and tribulations of coming to grips with quadbox Macks. Cheers.
Then you know exactly what I mean, Scrub Puller. Some of those old square-tooth trucks without synchromesh could fast make a proud man into one of the sorriest suckers to ever walk the face of the earth. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
A good friend of mine who passed away a few years ago was a master with a set of sticks. Couldn't walk and chew gum but he could run both boxes at the same time, arm through the steering wheel and not loose the ash off his cigarette. He taught me a ton about heavy haul and driving two stick trucks. When I got by CDL I used one of his old macks. The examiner got in and saw the second stick. Said, "what's that one for?" I said "That's yours, I'll let you know when you need to shift." After a couple stop signs and two lights he cut the test short and said if you can alley dock you're good to go. I said why didn't we do the whole course? He laughed and said you had to have shifted 50 times and I never heard a single gear grind. You've done this a long time. I said yep, since I could reach the pedals! I think I was 18 or 19 getting my intrastate license. Of course I'd sneak out of state from time to time.... ah the good ole days! Junkyard
Junkyard: What a wonderful story! You're making lots of folks smile. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
I have to wonder,that if your d8h 'just needed a gasket,then why haven't they done it? Best to see a runner in my opinion.You don't want to pick up a cracked block or one with liners that are too far sunk. As for heads,I allways have a new fully loaded head in stock.They are not expensive on our shores
Jim,I like your line on the diamond. Too true mate. Yer man's comments on selling the old D8's because the young drivers won't operate them ,sounds about right. I'm still concerned that a company that has sound service records and well maintained equipment is selling a D8 with a head problem.
Jim. These are 2 of my 1974 D8H tractors which are in very good order and see around 500 hours a year.They are about 295 horsepower I think as they are on compact fuel systems which gives abit more woof.The 275 hp models are good enough for many jobs though. Mine are used for dozer work and some scraper box work. They will work for ever in the right hands and there is no issue in sourcing parts for them
Whoooooeeeeeee! Look at those gorgeous machines! Tracks are all tight. Bodies don't look like they've been in a mud fight - Nicky, those are gorgeous! Thank you for sharing with us. I'm jealous - in a good way. Yes, at first blush, it does make you wonder why a company with good service records would let a machine sit idle with a bad head. I'll do a bit more investigation. Nicky, that's a positive idea - keeping a new head for backup. No matter what I end up with - I'll sure follow that good advice. Let me ask you a question I asked earlier. No one seemed to have the answer: I know that when ripping, it is critical to have control of the ripper tooth angle. A D8H has a parallelogram-style ripper that only offers a fixed-ripping position. So I had a thought. Maybe a stupid thought. The upper control bars are fixed to the rear of the Cat and fixed to the top of the ripper. Why wouldn't a person take off those upper steel bars and replace them with hydraulic cylinders? All the pressure would always be a compressive force against the tractor. There would be no tension trying to pull away from the tractor. Yes, you would have a control issue but it seems that could be somewhat easily solved with a straight charge/discharge valve, a valve control lever and hoses that would adjust the tooth angle. What seems the most difficult would be finding an appropriate place to tie into the hydraulic system. Also would be an issue is that of the hydraulic pump - if it were strong enough to allow for the addition of the extra hydraulics. Maybe this is a really stupid idea but it sure seems more reasonable than buying a new Kelly Ripper. I also read where someone is parting out a Cat and they have a 4-barrel ripper. More money. Again, those are sweet machines. They sure look nice side by side. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Hi Nicky, they are 2 of the best looking H's I've ever seen. Did you custom spec the cabs and exhaust system, they look as good as a K like that. Better than the old cab I had on the H I ran, and the upright exhaust silencer right in front of the controls- we used ours one summer with the cab removed, but ended up putting it back on because the heat from that muffler was enough to boil your eyeballs. Anyway, good to see you keeping them in such great shape. Cheers, John.
Jim. Your idea about adding 2 rams on top of your ripper is that good,that Caterpillar made a 4 piston ripper!! I know what you mean,but a just buy a dedicated 4 piston ripper of you want one,allthough a Kelly would be sound enough for your Job. Jim,an old D8H will last you for years,just keep the radiator clean and have a good transmission pump and suction line,let it cool down before shutting down and let it warm up a while in the mornings.That's all
John,thanks for your comments. They are made to look abit like D8K tractors. P.s My lips would burn with the cab off!! Jim,my father still helps me out with the D8's . He's 71 and plenty left.
Jim. Here's a 4 piston ripper that's going out on a job in January after abit of a tidy up over December.
I would think that if you Added cylinders to the ripper you could put a 24 volt splitter valve in the ripper lines and control both functions with the same control. You would need two splitters, one for cylinder out and one for cylinder in, both regulated by the same toggle switch. Not likely that you would be adjusting both functions at the same time.
So Nicky, who is the young man standing by the machine with a blue shirt? Let me tell you, it is such a joy to see someone care about equipment like you do, Nicky. Those machines are falling-down gorgeous. John and I have our tongues hangin' out lappin' our keyboards. You've done such a good job with those cabs and the exhaust. You've really given me a high bar to cross. And you not only did it with one but with two!!!!!! Those are so sweet. Yes, Nicky, if i end up with the DH, I'll be soppin' up all the information you care to throw this direction. You are the man!!!!!!! I just don't know how anyone with an oil pressure and temp gauge right in front of their eyeballs can overheat a tractor? So Nicky, I've got to ask. We all really want to know......do you talk much to these two ladies? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Jim,I only ever ran 10 D8H tractors (and others),so I am still learning about the buggers.........
Good morning Moose Lake! Man, the US is about to get some of that good Minnesota weather! Folks 'll be leavin' Nevada for Alaska just to warm up. It's going to be a real cracker. Getting down to -7 F here in Nevada. Yup, that's cold for us desert rats. Good idea with the 24V splitter valve. You're right. You're not going to be charging them at the same time. I can't see why it wouldn't work. The top cylinders would always have a positive compressive force against the tractor under load. You're not going to add any tension force pulling away from the machine. Should be cheaper than buying a whole system. Besides, I don't know if a 4-barrel would fit on the back of an H. Are the bolt patterns the same? Have to measure. Now, I've seen pictures of a Kelly but I've never operated one. Can you adjust the shank or is it just a "one-size fits all" motion into the ground? Sure looks wicked. So Old-Iron-Habit, thanks for the idea. I'll let you know what I do once I drop the hammer on the tractor I want. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Ten?????????? I'm going to get off this forum before I make an even bigger fool of myself. Your Dad and I have something in common. Both our ages start with the numeral 7. Ain't slowin' us down a bit!
Now that's a ripper!!!!! Boy, that black looks so nice with the yellow. I saw another Cat done like that with black sweeps all the way forward. It looked positively dangerous. Nicky? I see that you have side mirrors on your machines. Are you able to see anything with them? I'd think the vibration from the low torque would make them vibrate. Also, you mentioned something about "compact fuel systems" that give you machines more HP. What is that, Nicky? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
I'm laughing. A new friend just laid a funny line on me. I am looking at a Cat 345B L excavator and the pins on the bucket are just a bit loose. He said, "Jim, I wouldn't worry about loose pins on that big bucket. You ain't butterin' toast with it." I'll remember that - hah! Off to work I go. Good day, gentlemen. Thanks to all. . . . . and to all a goodnight. (Seems I've heard that line before.) Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Jim,The D8R got some fancy paint and stripes put onto it last month simply to satisfy a contract that I have. As for the older D8's,the camera's and mirrors are,again,to appease health and safety bods. I would never rely on a camera to replace the view out a back window.The convex or concave mirrors on the D8R are legal requirements for certain jobs.On another note,when working totally solo,I do use the reversing mirrors occasionally to save on abit of neck ache.
Yair . . . About rippers. I am sufficiently lacking in the grey matter department to actually like ripping and, to some extent made a study of the process, techniques and equipment. Unless the O/P is chasing big yardage or trying to fracture marginal rock I believe any attempt to modify a perfectly good parallelogram into a four ram would be a waste of effort . . . those rams are not there just to adjust the angle of the tine (and keep the point sharp) properly operated those rams take a pizzeling as it is possible to use hydraulic lever force as well as tractive effort to break out stubborn rock. Mother Caterpillar long ago determined a good average angle for best penetration in most conditions and a Cat parallelogram ripper with cat tynes and boots will work well in most applications. Even though I have written disparaging things about them a simple hinge style ripper with non pivoting adjustable depth tines would probably work quite well scratching around in a gold mine. With the hinge system you can get some angle for penetration and the working length can be adjusted to suit the site conditions . . . here again on most rippers optimum angle will be with ripper mainframe on the same plane as the tractor. As an owner the hinge style is attractive as there are just two pivots and one ram. The most important part of a ripper is the decelerator up on the floorplates Cheers.
Scrub says it well Jim. A good old basic Kelly was one of the most simple,yet produductive rippers ever made.
As for the excavator questions, first, the 345B: does not burn 15 gal per hr, unless you are at near 100 percent duty cycle, which will not happen doing what you describe. I expect in your use, I would expect about 10 gal. Second, the 345 will be able to do detail work. It is a fine machine for this type of work, with enough power for hard digging and rock, but good control. Parts and service are available, and will be for a long time. Third, you can get most of the capacity you will need with a Cat 330, plus they are much cheaper to move and to work on. Look for one with a quick coupler, and you can pull pretty hard on a ripper than can be purchased for a reasonable price. Fourth, steer clear of the off brand machines. While they may have ran good when new, there is little to no parts and service to keep one running into old age like there is with Cat. I would not recommend any smaller than a 330 excavator for use in the rock, as they will struggle to get it done, and have more problems while doing it. There is a large population of 330 machines in use, so they are easier to find. The Cat 330 matches up good with a D-8 dozer, and also down to a D-6. They are fairly economical to own and operate, and fuel burn at full load is about 9 gal/hr, with average work like you will likely do maybe 7 to 8 gal/hr. Whatever you decide to go with, best of luck with it!
I've been thinking about your Cat equipment, Nicky and the great appearance. If I were a person "hiring" work to be done, I'd take one look at that equipment of yours and I'd say to myself, "That's the guy I want working on my project. He takes care of his equipment and that means he's going to take care of me. He's got pride of ownership and that's the fella I want working on my property." I can just imagine when you pull them onto a job site. People have got to say to themselves. "Oh man, those are beautiful dozers. I've never seen dozers look like that before." And that's what all of us should strive for regardless of our profession. We should all be so lucky to have our customers whisper under their breath, "I sure hired the right person for the job." My hat is off to you, Nicky. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
So what I hear you saying is that a parabolic mirror gives you enough of a rear view to glance at now and then. I look, I look again, then I look again, and again and again because people get it buried way far up there with excitement and forget not to pull behind any piece of working equipment. I can never double check too many times. Is the D8R also your tractor? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Nicky: Understanding that I've seen lots of pictures of a Kelly but have never used one, they "look" like a serious, no-nonsense tool. The tine looks much heavier. Putting the tine further back? It would seem that would prevent bearing down on the the last roller, the rail and the sprocket in a low-axle machine. Yes-no? In fact with the hydraulic down-thrust so far back from the machine, seems it would keep all grousers more evenly spaced under the tractor. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Hello Jerry: How are you? First time I've seen you post. Sure glad you did because you've got some good advice on excavators. I must say, the 345B L seems like a very rugged machine. If you're going to be a bear - be a grizzly! Come big or stay home! When you need that kind of power - which, at some point in rock you always do, nice to have gear that can handle it. I'd always rather under-work a piece of equipment as opposed to having it run full-out max against the rails. Best thing you said was your opinion that one can cut the fuel consumption down to 10 GPH. Really think so, Jerry? That would be such welcome news. It seems to me that a guy could back off the throttle just a bit and "let the hammer do the work," as they say as opposed to pushing a hammer or a sledge with your arm. Let the head do the work for you. Big machine like that has got to have some kinetic force going all of its own with all the weight of the boom, the stick and 62-inch steel bucket. You may wonder why I'm so concerned about fuel consumption. Well guys, nobody is standing behind me writing out checks for doing all this. What did Mark Twain say was the definition of a mine? "It's a hole in the ground with a liar standing on top of it." I don't get paid until I dig it out of the ground and first, I've got to find it. So yeah, you bet I'm worried about fuel cost. Have I ever shared with you how excited I am to start digging down? Couple of senior Nevada geologists have been underground and looked at the formation. They call it a "stockworks". Think of a big tree trunk coming up from the depths with limbs spread out in all directions. That tree trunk is quartz imbedded with gold. This is a mesothermal formation versus a hydrothermal one. It was formed with moderate metamorphic pressure just above the mantle at between 200-500 degrees. Mesothermal formations continue with mineralization to depth - which means, the gold goes all the way down the trunk. Mesothermal formations range between 1.5 and 5 Kilometers deep. How deep does this one go? Nobody knows. Whoooooooo . . . . Early-day miners found the "limbs" of this stockworks at the surface and they followed some of the veins. This type of formation pinches and swells. They followed the limbs down to the pinches and then moved to another limb. This formation is just over a mile long and half a mile wide. Nobody has ever taken a piece of mechanized equipment after it. It was all done with ore cars on rails and air-powered knee-jack drill hammers. A Cat has never dropped a blade on the property. Neither an excavator. We already have found some pockets where the miners stopped following the quartz because it pinched down to less than an inch. I'm not a miner. I'm a film producer but let me tell you, this is one motivated film producer who's looking forward to playin' in the dirt!!!!! Sorry. I got off the subject. Ah-hem. Where were we? So Jerry, the 345 is ideal because once I get this big sucker moved, I won't be moving it again. I looked online and there are countless examples of Cat equipment that is being scrapped. You could put together a whole dozer or excavator from parts. I looked for Kobelco, Denio, Kubota, Komatsu, and they are few and far between when it comes to finding parts. So yes, that's why it's Cat for me or nothing. Sure appreciate your input, Jerry! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
So if it isn't broke - don't fix it. You feel a parallelogram ripper is sufficient to do the job? Scrub Puller? Please tell me why the decelerator is the most important part of ripping for you. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Yair . . . Passionhawk1. Others may disagree but, to me, ripping rock with a dozer is as much about technique and finesse as it is about brute horse power. I used to bust a lot of rock out at little more than idle and have worked in the same road cuts and out produced the rip tear bust brigade. The idea is to get that tine in there and just give the tractor enough throttle to maintain traction, lift and bust it out steady steady and ease back and get another bite. Once a track slips more throttle only makes it slip faster. Reading the grain of the rock is important and I shudder at some of those Youtube clips of dickheads with arse end of D11's and such jacked up smoking ripper boots to no discernable effect. Cheers.
Jim,as Scrub says,the tractor just needs to tickle the rock out in most cases. The old D9's will be shrouded in black smoke all day due to the operator tickling the rock out. The Kelly does look far back and can jack things up somewhat,but this can be handy if big lumps get jammed up.It doesn't seem to clog up. I can't really put it into words or logic,but a Kelly is a great ripper that can get the job done. The D8R is mine.These days,all rippers are of the 4 piston variety as far as I'm aware. Mark Twain and the liar.................funny.
So Scrub Puller, now I understand the decelerator. I've never heard that before about the gentle idle approach to pulling rocks. Rocks have tremendous compressive force. They're hard to press from the outside in and get them to break. However, rocks are very weak in tension - easier pulling them apart. If you can get aligned with the grain (not cross grain), I can see where it would take very little effort to "lift" them out - versus trying to plow through them. Plowing through them with a tine - pressing them inward from the outside is working against the strongest part of a rock. I can see where all you need to do is get a little bit of a bite to lift and roll. You gentlemen have taught me so much. Yes, I've seen videos where the tines are smoking and scraping over the top of rocks. I thought, "Man that's hard on the equipment." That's something I learned about steam locomotives. When those steel tires slip on the rail, it tears the heck out of roller bearings. Steel slipping on steel is bad and that's what you're doing anytime you slip a chain without forward movement. As I said yesterday, many people don't have the "feel" for mechanical equipment. You can feel what a machine is doing from your butt all the way through your arms and hands. Same with sound and vibration. It's an art to do it right, that's for sure. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
Nicky, when I started out, I really wanted a D9H..........until I learned how thirsty they were to operate. With you describing easing out the rocks at just a bit more than an idle, maybe the D9 wouldn't use so much fuel - you think? Your D8R. It has differential steering, correct? How do you like that versus the hand clutches? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG FINDERS
I posted this elsewhere that my Dad tells a story when they were working in the woods for a logging company years ago. He went to pick up his Dad, to go home for the night, my Grandpa who operated a direct drive D9 into the 1970s building roads in the woods. He had been ripping tough rock and my Dad says he was pulling for all the traction he could get, just above idle. It was after dark and when Grandpa pulled the ripper tooth out of the rock it was glowing dull red. That is what you get from focusing all the engine power onto a small piece of metal.
Hello Birken: Obviously, this slow, steady procedure to pull rocks as described by Scrub has been used a great deal. It is not hard to imagine how all that tractive effort concentrated into a tiny spot of steel as you explained, would cause that much heat and friction. That would also explain why a single Kelly Ripper tine would be so effective. Amazing that Caterpillar has not described this technique on their website instructions devoted to ripping. Thanks for telling us that great story. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hello again Jim, Thought I'd answer some of your post above. What do they mean by a "1-piece boom?" They ALL look like 1-piece booms to me with an articulating stick. 1 piece boom is the standard mono boom shaped like a banana. Then there are various other booms, a 2 piece boom will have another joint about half way along the boom (just after the main lift rams attachment to the boom), another set of rams. Then all the demolition booms, logging style etc. One piece boom is strong and low maintenance, perfect for most applications. Second question. I often see the term, "Carbody." To what is that in reference? Carbody in excavator speak refers to the "chassis" or the frame that holds the track rollers apart, roughly X shaped box section frame that the rest of the excavator sits above. If an excavator has aux hydraulics, that must mean that installing a thumb for grabbing is possible. Is that correct? No aux hydraulics - no thumb? Aux hydraulics to me refer to the service lines along the boom / dipper to run breakers, grabs, rotators etc. On a standard machine it will often have a one way flow, plus a return, all run from foot pedal. This is breaker aux. Can be reconfigured in most cases to be 2 way, to allow it to run a grab etc. A 2nd aux line is fitted for say rotator. I've never installed a thumb, but from using them and from what I've read, the clever ones allow for the bucket to overcome the ram pressure on the thumb when they contact, so you can adjust the bucket position further crowded while still holding something with thumb. This would require some extra hydraulic fittings not normally fitted to the standard aux line. Most machines of modern era (such as 345B) have provision for bolting on or adapting aux hydraulics. It comes down to cost again, so buying a used machine with these features already on it may cost less than having to build up a machine that doesn't have any of them. A hydraulics man can usually see at a glance of the valve bank and lines on dipper what kind of job is involved to fit on the extras. Quick hitch or quick disconnect lines will be slightly different to standard aux line as they are specific to the hitches design, normally much smaller hoses, and use a valve and toggle switch in cab wired up to a buzzer etc so you know you've tripped it. If a machine doesn't have aux hydraulics, can you still install a quick-disconnect (QD) head? Yes. Where can you buy QD heads? Pass Will QD heads install on all excavators? Yes, although on ancient ones or tiny minis it may be a manual disconnect rather than hydraulic. Are QDs made specific to each excavator or does one size fit all? Specific. Basically has to match the bucket bracket (pin size and spacing) of each class and brand machine. Does one need to buy specific buckets to work with a QD head or will they work with any bucket? Pin grabber QD come in two types. One fits a range of pin spacing, the other fits only a set pin spacing (pitch). Then there are the QD that are part of back of special buckets, have to buy the set. Then I read about some units being equipped to do "fixed pattern". What is that? Like a dozer, I'm sure the chain, idlers, rails, rollers and sprockets are important to the undercarriage. But, specific to excavators, what is the "gotcha" that you need to look for on inspecting? How can you tell if the turntable or the turntable motor is bad? Don't excavators have a lot of electronics and electronic ignition? I would think that combined with vibration, electronic anything would not be good. What about the control handles? I had one of those go out with a 4-1 bucket control and it was an expensive replacement. Seeing as you are constantly moving the control levers, is that an issue with them failing? If that is an issue, how would you ever know if you were just doing a demo on a unit? Why do I see so many examples of excavators that had engine fires? What's with that? Is that because the engine is back behind you so operators don't see problems such as smoke and oil until it's too late? When you buy an excavator, is there any such thing as "hi-flow hydraulics" or is that only germane to a skid-steer and all the different skid-steer attachments? I've seen video of excavators with pneumatic (or perhaps hydraulic) hammers for breaking rock. Is that necessary or will a ripper tooth do the same thing? In the ground I'm working, it's either shale, schist, metasediments, peltic rock or granodiorite. There's no hard batholithic granite like you'd find in a solid, granitic pluton. It's all folded and fractured and mixed with brown ocean sand. The quartz and quartzites is the really hard stuff. It never gets much wider than 10 feet (3 meters).
The gotcha on an excavator is the hydraulic system. The hydraulics do everything, if they've been contaminated by hardened steel bits, they'll never recover, short of complete rebuilding everything. An SOS oil sample is like ten bucks, you do the math. The turntable bearing can be checked by setting the bucket flat just above the ground, then have somebody tilt the bucket down to lift the tracks while you observe the play between the top and bottom of the bearing. I don't know what would be a problem with the control handles? the valves will be expensive, but they're not a big factor because of how reliable/durable they are (unless those hard steel bits start floating around). There's a lot packed into a small space is all I can say for fires in excavators, once they start they won't be put out easy, and they won't be rebuilt easy either. That or the friction between the insurance papers and the loan papers?
Decelerator and the clutch From my years of using broadcast electronics and complex, inter-connected systems, I learned the value of not just knowing "how" to use the equipment, but more important, how each component worked in the system and what it added to the mix. The best electronics troubleshooter at NBC taught me the value of knowing the entire system and how it works. Without that knowledge, it is very difficult to figuratively "find the fire" and correct problems when they occur. So in this spirit, I ask what some will think are dumb questions but it's not dumb for me to learn. I will express certain lay assumptions and please, feel free to correct any errors in my thinking. It is my belief that if a person knows what is happening with specificity when they turn on the key to the ignition, when they depress a clutch pedal or apply a brake, then, they should be able to be a better operator the vehicle because then, they can understand the true consequence of their actions. Let's state up front that I am not talking about a brand new Cat. I am talking about older machines that use clutch handles to remove the friction pressure upon the clutch plates of individual track drives. A decelerator retards engine RPMs momentarily so that one can stop/pause/change what the machine is doing without slamming it with a new (and opposing) purpose and stressing the components. The decelerator pedal is a fast and handy way to temporarily slow down the energy output of the engine. A decelerator could also be emulated in a crude fashion by first retarding and then increasing the throttle. During this interval of engine deceleration, what happens to the relationship between the clutch on the flywheel and the engine? Is it like taking your foot off the accelerator of a car, bringing it to a stop at a stop light but still keeping the automatic transmission in DRIVE while the vehicle is stopped? Over time, is this process of deceleration hard on the clutch and the transmission? If an engine is running, it is still delivering power through the crank shaft to the clutch plate. In an automatic transmission, resisting that kinetic energy of the engine's power output places hydrostatic pressure on the transmission impeller, the seals which hold back the fluid and upon the brake shoes which are holding back the engine's driving inertia from reaching the drive shaft. Why am I asking such an elemental question? It is because Scrub and others have explained that the most important component of ripping hard material is the correct application of the decelerator. In Cat-speak, that means controlling the amount of power that is reaching the clutch, pressure plate and final drives connected to the sprockets that engage and pull the chain. Whew. That was a mouthful. All of this got me to thinking. If I am "riding" the decelerator to maintain traction and prevent track slippage, what am I really doing every time I momentarily remove the engine's inertia to the flywheel? Am I (after a fashion) riding the clutch? What is that gentle on again - off again action on the decelerator actually doing to the engine, the flywheel, the clutch plate, and the clutch? Am I prematurely wearing out a particular component in order to correctly and most efficiently deliver varying degrees of power to the grouser cleats in a manner that maintains tractive effort to the ground? I want to know what I'm really doing to the machine internally - besides obviously riding the decelerator pedal with my right foot. See, not such a dumb question after all. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hi Jim. I can see this thread going for years answering your questions and raising more questions in the process. Is it possible to hire in a decent sized dozer and operator and after that a 330 sized excavator & operator and see how they perform on your site? The proviso would be that experienced and friendly operators be provided to give you some skills & capability training in the process. That could save a lot of time and money in the long run. If you chose your machine of choice by HEF and found it didn't perform to your expectations onsite, it could be an expensive process to sell and replace with the right machine. It will also give you a clearer understanding of the size of machine you can get away with. Bear in mind a big machine can be big dollars when it comes to repair & maintenance. The smallest machine that will do the job may be a consideration especially as you're more likely to end up with a more common machine making parts & repairs less costly. I operate dozers, excavators and more and either may be what you require. But as Scrub's post always indicate, it's the skill of the operator that will win the gold and not wreck the machine. AusDave
Haaaaah! What a great line, Delmer! The truth always comes out. It ain't the hardware where the problem lies, it's the friction in between the insurance and loan papers! That's funny. So Delmer, I've spent a lot of my years around unlimited Air Racing. P-51s, P-38s, P-40s, Bearcats, Corsairs, Russian Yaks, English Seafurys, Airacobras and the like. After every race, first thing that happens back in the pits is the crew chief pulls the oil and see if the engine is "making metal" from all the hard running. Find metal shavings and it's bye-bye $400,000 Rolls Royce or Pratt and Whitney engine! What you're describing to me is the same principle. Excavators are all about hydraulics - cylinders, hoses, fittings, rams, sleeves and pumps. If an excavator starts to make metal in the hydraulics, then the whole shebang is toast, right? Wow. So if a guy is going to test and inspect an excavator, he wants to: Run it up for 7-8 minutes and exercise the entire hydraulic system. Then, pull some hot hydraulic oil and see if it's making metal. Sounds like I need an experienced excavator mechanic along because he'll know where to pull the sample from the sump. I wouldn't know the sump drain if it were sitting in my lap. You can be danged sure I'm going to learn though!!!!!!!!!!!! What can an operator do to avoid or prevent a hydraulic system from making metal - besides very timely hydraulic fluid changes, the very best fluids and good filters and keeping the RPMS under control? Great explanation on the turntable. I know precisely what you mean and where to look. Ohhhh thank you, Delmer! I had the control "handle" fail on a machine I was using. The plastic separated and the whole thing fell apart in my right hand. Cost a bloody fortune to buy a new articulating handle and the labor to wire it back in. That's why I asked about the control handles. Delmer, you're a champion! Thanks for answering the questions! Thanks to you, I wouldn't think of doing a demo without a paid mechanic on board to CMA. That's short for "cover my keister." Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Yair . . . Passionhawk1. A decelerator is the exact opposite of an accelerator/throttle and is just another linkage to the injection pump. Normal procedure on a dozer is to set the throttle at the maximum RPM you need (normally pulled wide open with a couple of extra bumps to make sure) and the decelerator is then used to adjust speed or power within that range . . . can't do any harm at all. As far as damage that can be done to older clutch steer tractors . . . . I never tolerated fancy high speed direction changes. Obviously a power shift should never be left at idle or part throttle with stalled out tracks. "Sling shotting" or reengaging a steering clutch when the other track is spinning on loose rock or whatever should be avoided at all costs . . . just decel, shift to neutral and allow clutch to reengage. And of course on any machine with an over centre clutch be it torque converter or direct drive the transmission must be shifted to neutral and the clutch reengaged before allowing to stand at idle. Cheers
Hello AusDave: Know what the problem is? I know just enough to be dangerous! I've operated two Cat dozers (2 and a 7) and one TD24. Did it in my youth. Now, I'm "poor-boying" this new adventure. Other than being a film producer, a directer and a writer who has done several marketing films for major gold mining companies, I'm not an experienced miner. Oh, I've panned and sluiced my share of gravels but I know enough about both geology and mining to be terribly dangerous. So that brought me to this point of buying equipment. I first thought I'd need a heavy machine like a D9 to rip out the rocks. The title of this thread is, "D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?" Then, I found out all the downsides of the older D9G and H machines I was considering. That opened the door to using an excavator to pick out the quartz vein formations and doze away the overburden. That led me to consider a smaller D8 and with fingers crossed, I think I've got the right one in the sights. A Cat mechanic is going over the machine and telling me what is needed to make it healthy. I know nothing about excavators. That being said, I've done a lot of work with a backhoe and owned a big front-end loader so I have the feel for dig-curl-crowd. Equipment comes naturally to me - always has. Though I've spent hundreds of hours digging, dozing, loading and spreading rock, gravel and DG, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on anything. Which brings us back to the mine. My sweet wife and I are a typical mom and pop. We found this property, did our due diligence, confirmed the mineralization for ourselves, hired geologists to get their expert counsel and took the educated plunge. Now, we're ready to take this to the next level. We already have a very sound mine and processing plan - keeping the large (but purposefully portable) milling equipment almost on top of the point of extraction. That eliminates trucks, rubber, fuel, acquisition cost, insurance and labor. Yes, you are 100% right. In a perfect world with lots of money and enormous common sense, I'd hire in equipment, labor and let the "Pros From Dover" do everything. I'd just sit back and push the wheelbarrows full of money all the way to the bank. U-hh, Dave? In 53 years of running businesses, that's not the way my life has ever worked. So what's a mother to do? Well, first off, I bought the mine. It's free and clear. No payments. Next, I started gathering equipment I would need for processing the ore. I learned how to operate the rock crusher, hammer mill and shaker table. It's free and clear. No payments. Then, I taught my wife how to operate. What a wonderful wife. I am sooooo darned lucky! Besides, if there's one place the ladies like to be, it's where the gold comes out! HAH!!!!!!! Got a small dump truck, tracked loader, power plant, tool shed, water and fuel tanks, haulers and similar stuff. It's all free and clear. No payments. Now, I'm ready to buy a dozer and an excavator. When I'm done? You guessed it. It will all be free and clear, too. No payments. Does that mean I'm wealthy? Oh hell no. I've worked my backside off for every nickel I've ever made. God has been exceedingly good to me, Dave. I am more blessed than I deserve - even in spite of myself. I can walk away from the mine and never look back. I can sell the mining equipment for whatever it brings and move on. None of those sleepless nights I had when I was young wondering, "How am I going to get out of this financial hole I've dug for myself?" So back to your good advice, Dave. I found this forum. What a great forum this has been. I thought I knew all about earth moving equipment but as it turns out, I didn't know jack. But I've read, I've listened, I've consulted individuals and I've learned the spots where the cows crap in the buckwheat! Do I know as much as these fine folks? No way Jose but everybody's got to start somewhere. At age 70, my apprentice days are in the wake of my boat. If I don't do this stuff now then I might as well go chop wood. As I use to joke with friends, when I got in the motion picture business, I wasn't sure which end of the camera to stand behind. First roll of film I got back from the lab had a big eyeball on the screen all the way through. It was my eyeball! That's how I learned which end of the camera to stand behind and the difference between a lens and a viewfinder! Bad joke. Dave? I've hired mechanics, geologists and people who know their stuff. You can rest assured I've done the same on the dozer and will be doing the same with the excavator. Now, I have a serious question. Let's see if you know the answer. Have you ever met the most careful and gentle equipment operator on earth? Let me introduce you and tell you who he is. He's the same guy who paid for the equipment! That's the most gentle operator and that would be me. I'll be the one out there tickling the rocks and polishing the dozer blades so they shine - just like Nicky does on his beautiful dozers. I'll be the grease monkey with the gun in my hand and a smile pumpin' the zerks full every two hours to make sure we're keepin' the old girls happy. In short Dave, are you right? Should I hire in some pros and learn slowly and correctly how to become a good operator? Well of course you're right, Dave. You're spot-on. If I had a money tree growing in the back yard and if I lived in a perfect world, that's the best and most sound advice you could give and I really and truly respect that and thank you for being an honest guy and putting out the truth - just like we all should. But Dave? Just one little problem. You know those guys that mothers always warn their daughters about? Yup, you guessed it. Egotistical, head-strong, know-it-all, more enthusiasm than common sense? That's me too. Maybe my name should have been Trump. Eeeoowwwww . . . . now that was a bad one, aye? Dave, God Bless You and thanks for the really good advice. Probably the best and most honest advice on this thread. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders PS: The more I think on your suggestion, Dave, the more I believe it couldn't hurt to bring in a dozer operator with his Cat and also a small excavator for 2-3 weeks each so I could watch, get the basics down and see how the equipment performs. I could stockpile the pay and run it through the plant after the fact. I had another wise man suggest something similar way back when this thread began. Of course, being the egotistical, head-strong, know-it-all guy that I am, I blew off the idea. That was stupid, huh. Well, it is a good idea and one that's going to get serious consideration. Thank you, AusDave!
Scrub, that says it all. The decelerator is actually decreasing the fuel supply to the injectors. So when you are "riding" the decelerator, what you're really doing is modulating the amount of fuel being squirted into the cylinders by the fuel injection pump through the injectors - and thereby, controlling the power curve and the response of the engine by varying the quantity of fuel being delivered. Great explanation. I got it. Thanks, Scrub! I'll start backing off of these questions or like AusDave says, this thread will go on for years. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Jim Passionhawk1. This has to be one of the most interesting or unusual threads I've read on here. It has me curious as to what will happen next in your adventure.Nitelite and his '951 in my sights' thread had a similar ring to it.Perhaps you should look it up in the track loader thread. I look forward to following your tales on top of that Hill once you start hoofing all those coins out of it.. As for different steer being better to operate than clutch steer? .Yes it is,but when you are ripping,your right hand will be on the ripper and your left hand needs to do no more than scratch your arse.No steering when that shank is down.None.Ever.
They're all good questions Jim, you've analysed a lot of points that need considering. I would've answered a few more earlier but my wife reminded me we that we had a new year celebration to attend! I think the general consensus here is that you don't want too small of a machine as ripping rock is hard on the medal. But you don't want too large where your costs rise that way. I looked at a 345C yesterday, and considering what you're doing I could see how it's power and weight would be helpful. But it had no quickhitch (QD), and the bucket was a muck shifting bucket which would be too big in rock. I also saw a lot of 30-35 tonners, all had QD quickhitch. Seems the larger machines don't always have them fitted whereas they are common on smaller machines. I think you need the quickhitch, and a rock bucket more on the narrow side than wide, and a ripper tooth. It transforms a excavator when in just 5 seconds you can swap between the attachments lined up beside you, and use the right tool rather than wasting time trying to do it all with a big old bucket. Or having to swap to a different machine, then back again. Sounds like a Cat in the 30-50 ton class, with QD. John
That's the idea. Once a bearing or whatever grinds itself to death, and if that metal gets spread around, it will be stuck in softer parts wearing them away bit by bit, generating more and more little pieces of metal. An SOS kit is a bottle inside a bottle with a shipping label, you buy it from the Cat dealer (it's cheap) and it includes the testing and postage paid. If you buy a ten pack it comes with flexible hose to use with a suction gun to pull a sample from the tank, or you can use a valve on a line for the sample. Drain oil is not recommended. The test is PPM for a bunch of elements. There's also particle counts, search for that cause I'd get it wrong. One test isn't as useful as a history of tests on the machine. If you do one, I believe they will include any former results they have for the same engine/machine serial number. Of course, one horrible test is enough to tell you the bad news, but one clean test doesn't show much (unknown hours etc).
Delmer, I'm glad you made that clear. I thought your referral to SOS was just a casual, conversational reference. So CAT has this SOS fluid testing service? You're absolutely right. Ten bucks is a cheap test. Then again, if you get a bad report, it's the same as finding out you've got VD. You know you've really been screwed (in more ways than one) but then you say to yourself, "Now what am I going to do?" Perhaps that's a sick comparison. Is this only for excavators or is it on all Cat equipment? Is this just for hydraulic fluid or do they test engine oil, too? So it's as simple as taking a sample of the hydraulic fluid from the reservoir? I would think the filter would catch everything before it returns to the tank. Know what, Delmer? We've got a huge Cat dealership here in Nevada with all the mining. I'm going to go down there tomorrow, strike up a conversation, ask for a 10-pack of this SOS to use on the machines I'm investigating and see what else I can learn. Never hurts to have someone you know, in advance, at the parts and equipment supplier store. Thanks for the clarification. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Things Are Coming Together I ran a local ad looking for qualified Caterpillar service people in the area where the equipment will live. I have started to receive some good individual response. This improves the comfort zone. I've decided to get into some of the service myself - certainly the daily greasing at a minimum. I'm also going to tackle some of the maintenance so I can learn more about the equipment. I see a great deal of used trucks with hydraulic lifts on the internet for sale. Seems it wouldn't hurt to have one of those around to help lift the heavy stuff into place. I first thought we could use the excavator for that but then I realized, what if something happens to the excavator or what if I don't want to take it off the spot where it is working? So, I'll see if I can find a used, truck-mounted, 5-10 ton hydraulic lift for sale. I want to thank everyone for tolerating my dumb questions. I have learned a great deal from everyone on this forum. Forgive me for using up your valuable time but it has been a positively wonderful learning experience. I'll do my best to refrain from asking too many more questions lest this thread, in fact, go on for years. Thanks to everyone and all the best! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
SOS stands for Scheduled Oil Sampling. I think you'd be very lucky to find one for ten dollars though, Around here it's in the mid $30s per sample. They will analyse any lubricant from any machine, even from your car if you want. Most dealerships can also analyse fuel, coolant and greases. The key to getting good data from oil sampling is to make your samples representative and consistent. To get them representative you need to make sure the lubricant is thoroughly mixed, achieved by running the compartment until it is warm, then take the sample from within, as near as you can, the middle of the reservoir. Consistency is achieved by using the same sampling technique each time you sample the compartment. Sampling techniques include, in order of preference; 1. Live sampling. This is where a sample is taken from a valve located on one of the fluid's circulating lines. Obviously can only be used on systems with pressure circulation and pre-installed sampling points. 2. Vacuum pump. Can be used on most systems where you can get a piece of tube into the reservoir. Needs care that you don't scrape the tube on the tank wall and pick up crud from there. Best practice is to draw some fluid to flush the tube, throw it away then draw some more for the sample. 3. Catching the drain oil. Usually the most convenient for sampling engines without a live sampling point as the oil is usually being changed at the same time as the SOS. Needs more care than the other techniques by way of making sure the oil is thoroughly mixed and warm and the drain plug/valve is clean before you start. Also watch for crap from underneath the machine falling into the bottle. Let approximately half the oil drain then take the sample. Once again, consistency is the key. If you use the same technique every time, you will be OK. Other things to watch out for are cross contamination; use new tubing every time and don't get any oil onto your sampling pump. Keep the lid of the bottle in a clean place whilst you are taking the sample and don't let dust or rain get in there.
Thank you, Cmark: Does everyone know about this stuff? I've never heard of "Scheduled Oil Sample" (SOS) before. That's the reason I have enjoyed this forum so much. I don't care who you are or your experience level, if you can't learn new things off this forum then, the only difference between you and a dead man is that you simply haven't fallen over yet. Thank you again! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Cat is the only company I know of that can provide this sampling service. There may be others but I've not come across them. The last excavator I bought, ( not a cat), I asked the dealer can they offer a sampling service and they said that kind of thing is a bit beyond them, and it was main dealer (case). When pushed, they said I should go to cat if I want that kind of thing... I've used the sos from cat, and was impressed by it. John.
Cmark, do folks your way sample machines regularly? Eng oil Coolant Hydraulic fluid (multiple points?) Final drives Slew motor xxxxxxxx Diesel tank Grease in the rotary? xxxxxxxx Once a year for all of them? Plus eng oil everytime? Cheers
I'd say that everyone who deals with machinery on a professional level is familiar with lubricant analysis. SOS is just Cat's proprietary term for it. Saying that, Cat is the only heavy equipment manufacturer I'm aware of that encourages its dealers to offer the service in house. All others that I know of just send the samples to third party labs for analysis. See www.noria.com for further reading on the subject.
Going by the book; Engine oil, every 250hrs aka every oil change. Hydraulic, final drives, swing box, every 500hrs. Coolant, every 1000hrs. Fuel and grease, only if there's a problem. This has to be tempered with some common sense though. Eg. if you've recently blown a hydraulic hose and lost most of the oil, there's little point in sampling it two days later. Just make a note of the hours on the oil on the next sample.
Passionhawk, just keep in mind the old saying: "The only dumb/stupid question is the one that wasn't asked". I imagine your questions have brought answers to others who were reluctant to ask. It doesn't really matter how long this thread goes on. Mike
How many tons of ore an hour can you process?
Our small plant which includes a hopper with conveyor into a jaw crusher and another conveyor into a refining mill can process eight (8) tons per hour including the regrind. It's a very small mom and pop operation. We are very selective of what we send through. Most of the gold is in the quartz but it can also be found in the phyllites as much as 50 feet away from the main vein. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Well, Stonebreaker, I hope you're right about helping other people like me who never made their entire career sitting in a hard-leather seat pulling clutches. For my part, this forum has saved me from making some very serious (spelled CO$TLY) errors. I've got some mechanical men on line who are helping now and they are indispensable. Not-with-standing, a man needs to "inspect what he expects" and if you never got on the clue bus in relation to this equipment, it's hard to inspect what you know nothing about. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Jim, I have been following your thread with interest. I am a geologist with a bit of an interest in quartz mineralization. My specialty is karst geomorphology, but I have done some work on quartz mineralization as we have some iron ores here in the Ozarks which are associated with low-grade hydrothermal quartz. I look forward, with anticipation, to your mining operation! I think it would help folks appreciate the type of landscape you are working if you could post some photos of the mine site. I have a pretty good idea of the type of ground you are working just from your detailed descriptions--and I also think your choice of equipment is probably the right one. There's not going to be a perfect solution (unless you could invest a fortune, and not a small one!), but a combination of excavator and dozer will certainly be a good one. In years past, it would have been a track loader and dozer, but excavators have usurped loaders in many applications. I'm curious--have there been any reports of placer deposits downstream from your place? If there were any, they were probably worked out a long time back, but I would be curious if there were any records. Best of luck! --Cavin'
Dear CavinJim: If I had known how much I would love geology, I would have went a different direction as a kid. These hills rise up off of what was once the Great Lahontan Inland Sea. The basin was once a giant backwater bay - hundreds of miles square. The USGS has taken soil samples in the basinal terrane that originated in the Texas and Oklahoma Craton from ancient rivers that once ran from east to west - before the poles moved and they started running generally from north to south. Several land masses that separated from the incoming Pacific Plate during subduction, accreted to the north American plate not 18 miles away. Then, as the Sierra batholith began to form, the sediments on the ocean floor were crowded into wavy ribbons and began to overthrust one another. They were eventually completely overturned which created the cracks along the folds. During this time, there was mild metamorphic exposure along with low temperature heat and that is what created the shale, schist and phyillites. Granodiorite intrusives followed up the folded cracks and made it to the surface on several of the small hills. Miners found these outcrops and followed the largest veins starting in 1892. Things were still quite productive up through the early 1940's but, with the advent of WWII, the feds outlawed all mining that was not supportive of the war effort (War Production Board Law 208). Mining ceased and did not resume. First one partner died and then another and it was all held up in the courts for years. I came upon an almost identical scenario on the edge of the Russian Wilderness in Northern California. Same story. The formation was found almost 55 miles from the nearest town. They packed everything in by mule team but the formation was worth it. They took out over 12,000 OZ of Au before the same War Production Board Law 208 shut them down, too. Everything was blasted shut. Earlier this year, I was the first one up there. After 4 days of digging, we gained access into the main tunnel. It was all caved and the timbers (which were actual sawed logs) were somewhat intact and were mostly still in place. It was a very wet mine which is an extremely dangerous place to be pokin' around. We climbed over several rockfalls and little stuff was coming down the whole time. I whipped out my 3-pound and a chisel to take some samples and my son who was with me about shot his pants full. "Dad....DAD!!!! Dammit, you're gonna get us killed," he hissed in a whisper. I replied in a normal voice, "Jim, if it hasn't caved anymore than this in 71 years then, I think we're okay." My son closed the distance between us like a Ninja Warrior and put his hands over my mouth and whispered in my ear, "Dad, don't talk. Your low voice will cave the rock." I started to laugh out loud and he put his hands over my mouth again. About that time, a small rock bounced off my hard hat with a good plastic clank. His eyes got as wide and white as two Melmac plates. "Seeeeeee!" And so we left. We saw a California grizzly on the way in near the mine and I thought that scared him as much as anything. He was rollin in a snow drift when I said to the fellas, "Look!" He stood straight up when he heard my voice. Sucker looked 9-foot tall if he was an inch - standing above us on the snow drift. There were more of us than him so he took off on a run. But the mine - the mine was the worst for my son. That is really a great mine but the area is administered by the U.S. Forest Service. Moreover, the property abuts the Federal Russian Wilderness Area and the Pacific Crest Trail goes through the edge of the claim. There's one of those Birkenstock wearin', alfalfa sprout farters up that trail every 15 minutes or so during the summer. Can you imagine the look on their faces after walking for 4-5 days through the wilderness - coming around a turn in the trail to see a big yeller Cat blowin' black diesel smoke and digging into the hillside? It would be "game on," for sure. I thought it over and realized the hell it would truly be to deal with the feds and also the environmentalists tokin' up their bongs full of Mary Jane and bein' half nutso. Discretion being the better part of valor, we left the property to the grizzly and headed back home to look elsewhere. Not-with-standing, that was God's Country. Big virgin Cedar trees, Blue Spruce, creeks, huge grassy glades and Mule deer everywhere. There was even a spring-fed lake. If I were younger, I would've went for it because there's a lot of serious gold right up next to the batholith on the southeast side of the restricted area. Even though it's a legal claim, about the time you walked a Cat up there, there'd be a lot of arrows in the air coming at a guy. Found another spot in California right off the Yuba river. 52 acres and it's smack dead in the middle of where they found all the gold in the gravels at the Malakoff Works. Forest Service runs an Interpretive Trail through there with uniformed guides to show touristed flat-landers all the bad things the 49er miners did in the late 1800s. I just couldn't figure out a reasonable way to sneak a piece of yeller equipment onto that property either. There's still lots of gold out west. All the easy stuff's been picked off the top of the ground. Now, you gotta dig for it - but it's still there. A guy just has to stay out of California . . . . you know, " The Golden State " where they don't allow mining anymore. Better end this before I show my skirts. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
I live in the Yuba country you describe. There are still quite a few gold miners out here. They mostly live in a tent, eat from a bag of hard beans, and drink the cheapest beer you can imagine. They look like a walking skeleton most times. If you try to run a mine any bigger than a shovel full then you get tied up in permits for about 5-10 years until the money runs out. However, it is hard to tell if someone is serious with a larger mine. I mentioned to one old miner (who has a real business on the property in addition to the mine) about one of these new mine startups being just a scam to get the investors' money. He said "It is always a scam to get the investors' money" After that I look at these mine startups with a different eye and it has served me well. Unlike here, Nevada actually seems to encourage mining.
Hello Birken: I thought long and hard and can't add a thing that you didn't already say. Gold mining sounds so exciting and like a frontier adventure! It is both of those things. Also, a tremendous way to lose weight and stay cold. It is a hard way to make a living - unless you have a proven resource and an exceptional operating plan to take it from the ground and put it into your pocket. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Maybe I'm missing something. If you can only process 8 tons an hour why are you looking into huge machines? I mean a Cat 345 will have 8 tons in a couple scoops. Just asking
Dear Oarwhat: That's what I have right now for crushing and processing. We are not running everything through the crusher - just the quartzites and phyllites. As we uncover more source rock and veins using the equipment, we'll increase the capacity. Meanwhile, the rest (majority) either gets run through a closed-loop trommel or is overburden which is pushed to the side. As for the 345, I'll get a slender rock bucket and a hammer for pulling apart the seams. It comes with a big 62" bucket which will sit to the side. Way too big for what I need. As for why the large machines, I need the breakout force on the excavator. The tractor? Well, the mineralization is a touch over a mile long and half a mile wide X 500-800' tall. The veins go down into the earth so there's a lot to move. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Okay I see the big picture now. Good luck!!!
Thank you, Oarwhat. We'll need all the luck we can grab. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Jim, any luck on the equipment search? --Cavin
Hello Cavein: Yes, I believe we're onto a couple of units. Checking out a Cat D8H dozer and also a Cat 345B L excavator. I hope they both check out clean. I'll let you know with Pix. Neither one will win a beauty contest but sanding and paint can take care of that aspect. Most important is the mechanical condition. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hi Jim. Got a pic of the R series D8 last week when I went to see it settling in its current job. It's easy to rip,but it needs to be ripped 4 times crosswise to turn the sandstone to dust.It's then pushed from the back up and over the spoil pile,then over the face to 2 Cat 966 Shovels. This effectively means the D8 is double handling the spoil Which ensures it gets well munched up. Most jobs we do elsewhere with the D8's require us just to rip and push down hill to a crusher instead.
There is a D9H for sale in Northern California. It appeared to be in decent shape. Its not smog compliant so they want to get rid of of it. Nevada has some really abrasive rock in places. Make sure the liners and other wear metals are in good condition. Buy some extra ripper shanks. You will need them.
Hello, Truckdoctor: How do I find it? Where did you see it listed? Thank you for letting me know. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hello, Truckdoctor: How do I find it? Where did you see it listed? Thank you for letting me know. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hello, Nicky! Great picture of your Cat with the shank buried down and snugged up tight. I can see why a single tine is so effective - directing all the power into one location. That sand is murder on the metal. A good washing back in the yard will take care of that. Good to hear from you, Nicky! Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
I did not remember the ad correctly. It's a D9G. It's in the SF Bay Craigslist. Search Caterpillar. It has been for sale for a while.
I'll check it out. Thanks so much. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Hey Truckdoctor: I got over to see the D9G today. Solid unit and clean. Not abused. One hydraulic leak in a ripper cylinder but that can be fixed. Undercarriage good but pads are average. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Help: So I need some help identifying an auger I bought today. Runs like a Swiss watch and everything works. Nothing that a good shop sanding and a coat of Emron won't fix. I crawled all over this machine looking for a name plate. Nyet. Nada. Nothing. Not squat. Just a lot of old yellow paint. It's got a 4-cylinder Detroit Diesel with a turbo. The mast is 14 feet high when raised. It has 4-wheel drive and 4-wheel steering. Built like a Nazi War Wagon. Serious 1/4 - inch steel fenders. Hydraulic hoses are so large that they could pass for fire hoses! Who made it? What is it called? What is it ????? Is it an alien life form? My wife wants to know so she can put a billboard up along the freeway making fun of her husband. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
What will it's purpose be in your mining venture? Mike
Did you ever hear the Thomas Edison quote about when he invested in an iron mine and how he "threw a million dollars in that hole and never even heard it hit the bottom". Well these days a million dollars in the mining game doesn't go very far so I'm sure that auger will do just fine.
Mike, I have approximately 50+ acres of alluvium. It ranges from 5 feet to as much as 38 feet down to bedrock. Sample, sample, sample. I want to auger down, find out what is underneath by running the drill tailings through a trommel wash plant before I go digging up a huge patch of God's earth. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Thomas Edison was an optimist! Good quote. Yes, the price of admission is steep and the results are not guaranteed. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Does anyone recognize this drill / auger? Who was the manufacturer? What was it called?????? Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
That's what I kinda figured. It should work well for that. After a while you'll probably need to add buildup and hard rod to the auger flight edges. Are the cutting edges changeable or will they also need buildup and hard rod? With auger you could drill down a couple of feet, stop the auger, pull it out, collect a sample off the flights. Drill down another 2 feet and repeat to get samples from different depths and keep a log of each hole's samples and in the end have a cross section of whats under the area you going to mine. As for the make of it, if it's homemade they did a good job!! mike
Hi again, Mike: I'm trying to find out the make and model so that I can go on a search for manuals. It is not homemade. I saw one just like it years and years ago. It was working in a rock quarry drilling blast holes. I'm no more a drilling expert than I am anything else. I thought to invest in a bunch of Kelly bars (extensions) so that I can keep going deeper and deeper. The auger on it right now is for dirt - not for rock or compacted soil. I am getting a bid to make a 24" auger with advanced "dragon tooth" carbide teeth which are superlative to the standard bullet carbide teeth. Your description of going a few feet at a time and sampling is precisely how I thought to proceed. With a 24-inch footprint, that will provide a good sampling hole. It has a 2.5 inch hex driver shaft. I am trying to reverse engineer the operating PSI from the size of the drive shaft. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
It looks like that drill has Coleman axles under it. You should be able to find a larger auger that would fit that kelly bar. Measure it and check around. I'll bet it is a common size. Changing the cutting edge on those is easy. I've replaced several cutting edges on augers and it doesn't take long.
So Truckdoctor . . . . I should look under "Coleman"? Would Coleman perhaps be the manufacturer? I looked at the flights and they are "hardened". The bits on the end? Well, two bits are screwed onto the end with screws - literally. The whole cutting edge on the bottom was welded onto the end of the shaft. I see no easy way to remove the bits and add a whole new cutting head. The Kelly Bar measures 2.5 inches on each flat side of the hex. You are saying to look around for a used auger that has a hex coupling that is 2.5 inches? I really would like to drill these holes with a 24" auger so that I get a really good sample. The auger on the drill is only 10-inches wide. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
If you add kelly bars without auger flights, there's a good chance after you get a bunch of cuttings in the hole above the auger you won't be able to pull it up unless you plan to trip in and out a lot to get the incremental samples. IMO a 10" auger will get you a representative sample. If you increase the diameter 2 1/2 times it will require a lot more horsepower and subject the machine to lot more stress. From what you describe of your needs of eqpt. to excavate this material I think the auger is going to struggle anyway. I'm not being pessimistic, just trying to see realities. Mike
Post some pics of the auger so I can see what the teeth are like. We run just about every style of tooth there is. I can ask the drillers which style will work best for your conditions. If you have to cut the socket and tooth out completely it's not a big deal to weld in a new socket for a common style tooth. We have two welders in the shop doing it daily. The angle you choose is important and you want each tooth angle to alternate back and forth the help create some cutting action. You absolutely will want to hard rod around the sockets and the edge of the flight. It won't take long and you'll have a 9-1/2" auger and then an 9 etc etc. They wear quick in certain conditions. We had a job recently where they'd drill a couple holes, swap augers and we'd hard rod the one while they drilled with another. Rinse lather repeat. I have access to hundreds of years drilling experience so hopefully I can help! Junkyard
Many machines are built with components. The detroit engine and coleman axles are what the manufacturer used to build the machine. There are not any plaques or metal tags on the frame or any hard mounted body parts? The other consideration is to use a little imagination and a decent welder/fabricator and modify the machine to do what you want it to. The mast looks like it is from a forklift. I'm sure the drive is generic with over the counter parts. I agree with ol'stonebreaker. If you start making the auger bigger the hydraulics will probably not swing it without more modifications. Pretty soon you will be buying a bigger machine. Pull back is a big deal with drills. The water rigs I used to work on were rated by pullback. It is easy to run steel down the hole but if you can't get it back the hole is worthless. I'm sure Junkyard can attest to that.
Ol'stonebreaker, where are you at in Idaho? I grew up in the Magic Valley area.
Yes as far as pullback, it may have the power to drill with a 24" auger but depending on flights and how much dirt it holds you may not get it back out of the ground full of material. Lots of variables. Also, I don't know how much room there is from the kelly bar to the frame itself. May not be room for a very big auger once you start to swing around to clean out. We run into that on ocassion even as big as our rigs are. The Soilmec computer doesn't let it tilt out far enough to swing a big auger past the track to clean out, I think anything over 60" is very close. You can drill and clear centered but can't swing. IMT's also can get close with a big auger, usually end up overriding the computer to tilt enough to swing past the track if the auger is too long to go above. I think it's good to about 84" then it gets interesting. Same with the Watson's. I had no idea how much there is to poking a hole in the ground! Edit, looks like you don't swing, maybe pull away and clean then back to the hole. I hadn't looked that close before. Junkyard
I'm in Soda Springs. Mike
I used to go through there on my way to Denver. Nice area.
I see your point, Mike. It would involve a great deal of setup and breakdown for sampling just to reach the bottom of the hole. I'm just trying to be a bit wise before jumping in with both feet and tearing the countryside apart. Better if a guy has some clue of what lies under the surface. Kindest Regards, Jim Mitchell DLOG Finders
Soda Springs - as in Soda Springs, California up on Donnor?
Idaho. Mike
Well, Jim, I think knowing what you have in the top 14 ft of 50 acres would keep you busy for awhile. Mike
Yes indeedy. Then again, gold goes to the bottom and lays upon bedrock. The idea behind drilling is to: 1. Determine the depth to bedrock. 2. Determine placer deposits or lack thereof.
Maybe in your case with depths to 38 feet an airtrac and compressor would be better. With 10 ft steels you could go to that depth easily. With a piece of 1/8" plate about 2 ft square with a hole in the center for the drill bit to pass thru and a hole for the foot to pass through you could take incremental samples all the way down. Mike
Life is a never-ending series of unwanted lessons. Got an email. "Sorry. Refunding all the money plus $50 for your trip over here. Local guy just paid us $5000 more for the drill and he's picking it up tomorrow morning with a trailer. The owner decided price wasn't a fair value to him." I couldn't haul it away with my car - but haul it away is what I should have figured out how to do. Possession is everything. I'm sick. Will be back on in a few days to learn about an airtrac, what it is and how it works. Passionhawk1
Life is a never-ending series of unwanted lessons. Got an email. "Sorry. Refunding all the money plus $50 for your trip over here. Local guy just paid us $5000 more for the drill and he's picking it up tomorrow morning with a trailer. The owner decided price wasn't a fair value to him." I couldn't haul it away with my car - but haul it away is what I should have figured out how to do. Possession is everything. I'm sick. Will be back on in a few days to learn about an airtrac, what it is and how it works. Passionhawk1
If I was the suing type, I would sue just for the annoyance factor. If you paid over money, the deal was done, irrelevant of if the machine was hauled or not. This kind of people really, REALLY get me fired up, rotten scum. Hope you find something better man.
In Oklahoma a verbal contract is just as binding as a written one although it's harder to enforce as it becomes he said she said. With that said....something stinks with that deal. You'd think he would give you the option to match price. It's a raw deal but I don't think it's like he says. Either way I guess you're lucky you get your $ back and he didn't screw you and get paid twice!
I remember that from a real basic course on law in high school. As long as deal is mutually agreed upon between both parties makes it an enforceable contract. The fact money was also exchanged makes it pretty cut and dry. I'd sure consider asking for some advice from a lawyer. Most will give a free consultation. You can't make a deal and then back out because someone else offers more money after the fact. I can see if something sat for an extended period before being picked up but even then, there's legal hoops to go through.
Jim, from what you've said about the material to be mined I think this might be a blessing in disguise. I think the auger would have been struggling all the time. Just google "air trac rock drill" to get familiar with them. Mike
Having spent a few of my years around mining and mineral exploration, I will offer the following. If this project is a for profit venture, then first consider the costs of delineating the mineralized area. Typically this is very expensive with no returns unless you have positioned yourself to receive a salary. If insufficient mineral is found, then the prospect is abandoned. If some mineral is established then it needs to be found in sufficient quantity to become ore, which is defined as produced at a profit. So this is what I understand so far. You have a placer gold prospect located high and dry on fifty acres in mining friendly Nevada. You wish to establish presence of mineral preferably as ore. Enthusiasm is high and funds are high enough to be considering a D9 dozer and the expense per hour of keeping this machine moving. If it's sampling you want to do, unconsolidated alluvium with gravel will play hell with drills. Casing will be required to keep the hole open, samples will be diluted and contaminated from above. Consider a track hoe with the option to buy. A excavator capable of reaching down twenty feet. Sample as affordable as you go down. Maybe even set up a small screen plant to run your own sample program. Consider trenches with benchs to reach down further. Remember safety is paramount when working around any hole in the ground and this is your first responsibility. Also remember that that an effective sampling program can easily work against you by devaluing your prospect. Enough said.