Hello! My uncle asked me to help him bid a job, the job is moving 50,000 CY of dirt, 1500' haul route. He plans on renting Deere 250D ADT's and loading them with a 200C LC. Anyhow, I know the cycle time for a Cat 320C L is 0.23 minutes, would it be about the same for a Deere 200C LC??
I would be going with 30 or 35 ton articulated trucks also look at renting Volvo trucks they are better haulers than anything else. A 200LC isn't a bad machine it all depends on hard the ground is what are you digging ? What are you digging is it possible to dig with wheel loaders ?
Nolan I do not know the job conditions, but a 200 is a little small to load with. You can do it, but it is not very productive. The excavator controls the production, so make sure it is a match to the task at hand. See my answer in your other post for more info.
Fensoncont: Attached are a couple pages out of the Deere performance handbook that will give you an estimated cycle time for you 200CLC. LT: What are you basing your comments on? I have personnally seen Deere trucks walk away from Volvo's. IMO I would also say that Deere and Cat have a much better and consistant dealer network structure in place for the support of the trucks.
In the logging industry and road builders Volvo articulated trucks are brand of choice there are many old Volvos still running around well worn out but still run. The loggers use their Volvos pretty hard running up and down 16% grades or even steeper grades. Running on sharp blast rock and running on rough logging roads. Some of the trucks around here have been barrel rolled they are put back on their wheels and back to work. One of the mines is trying out Komatsu's 40 ton trucks so far they like them.
From what I understand the new T-III 740 is a hoss as well!!
Thank you for your help guys!! I told my dad that I thought he should be using at least 30 ton trucks and perhaps a 330 or 450 excavator. Maybe if its a good time I will tell him my opinion. Can you guys help me with getting the BCY for excavator buckets?? I know for haul trucks and pand you multiply by the load factor for bank CY, but is it the same for excavator buckets because then I saw a section on fill factors to??? Also, for using 2 of those ADT's (in Cat Size 725) and 1 Deere Excavator (in Cat Size 320C L) I had the cycle time at 6.27 minutes. How does that sounds??
The operator and truck drivers is going to make or break the speed. If you have to calculate to the second on how long its going to take to load the trucks I wouldn't be doing the job. You load the trucks at a speed that is safe. You figure the 200 size excavator should be making atleast 120 dollars per hour the articulated trucks should be about the same.
I would upgrade to at least a 300 size machine a 200 is to small for that job youll fall behind. I was told to make all ends meet you only want to put six buckets into a truck. To match machine with truck. I don't believe this is true to everything, but its a good rule to try and follow by.
Thanks for the help guys!! My uncle told me I know more than he does on moving dirt so thats why I am helping him. Hes a "pipe" man. I think he would like to get into earthmoving, but slowly. This will be the biggest job he has ever bid (50,000 CY). The nearest Deere dealer has a 250D haul trucks sitting over there ready for rent. The biggest excavator he owns is a 200C LC and I don't think he wants to rent a bigger excavator if he can help it. As for the loader, material has been sitting in the pile for years and there considering it as 50,000 BCY. So the loader wouldn't get a good enough what I call "punch" in my opinion to go into that pile.
if you're loading out of a stockpile, buy/rent a 5 yd wheel loader it will far outload a 200 sized deere
This is stockpile has been sitting for years, and now the material is back in its bank state. I don't think a loader could handle it.
if it's a clay or granular material, a loader surely would handle it, and if it's those 2 types of materials, i know a 5 yd loader will out produce a 1 1/4 yd excavator. with a loader, you also don't have to be quite so critical with truck placement when it comes to loading out of the bank as you would with an excavator. if you were comparing the 200 deere to a 2 1/2 yd loader, i might agree that the excavator would be faster.
To loosen the material up use a dozer to push the material and use a loader to load it out. A 966 or 980 Cat would do the job if you were digging virgin untouched dirt then a excavator would be faster. You make it so the articulated trucks pull in easy load up and drive out.
As long as you are on firm ground a 980 with a toothy bucket will be at least 3 x faster than the excavator. The loader will be dumping in the truck before the excavator has taken his first bucket.
There's some advantage too, to disturbing the dirt as little as possible between the bank and the truck. Obviously it's going to swell some, regardless of how it's loaded, but pushing it around with a dozer first guarantees that it'll be as fluffy as possible by the time you fill the truck with it.
To true...and we are always having problems with dust control. However, unless its really greasy or full of rock then a 980 sized machine will have plenty of Oooompha to dig the pile...thats what he's worried about. Then you really have to look at the productivity. Even a D6 pushing the pile over and a 980 size loading you would double the number of trucks loaded easily...thats if the trucks could keep up. As for being fluffy...well what you do is bang your bucket down on the load in the back of the truck a couple of times to compact it again ...you can generally tell when you have banged it down enough cause either the air bags on the trailer blow out or the truckie is out of his cab yelling at you:bouncegri whats that?...sorry I can't hear you...speak up (Squizzy turns up radio)
What is being done with the dirt nobody has asked yet :yup Is the material being piled up in another area ?
The material just needs to be graded out 1500' away. Using 2 Cat 725 ADT's, a 320C L, and a D6H I came up to around 2.96/yd, my load factor was .72. I know its high, but I am sure it would be lower with a larger excavator like JDOFMEMI said, "The loading unit controls production" I agree!
fenson, i'll wager you this. call your cat dealer. ask him which would be quicker loading trucks out of a spoil bank, OR a virgin pit.....a 320 cat excavator with a 1.25 yd bucket, OR a 5 yd front end loader. unless soil conditions are total slop, i know what he's going to say. if you're truly interested in finding the right answer, ask the manufacturer for their opinion. if this round of fantasy has you doing it with a 320 cat, have fun!
dayexco, I appreciate your opinion, but I am just trying to use what my uncle tells me hes going to use. If thats what he wants to use, thats how I am going to bid it. I wish I could change his opinion, but it would be a bit difficult. Thanks again for your help!
Fair enough too....we rarely have the machines for a particular site we really want and just have to make do with whats we got. Planning and positioning is key with the loading trucks with the Ex.
I'd be interested in hearing that debated. I think the balance between the loading unit and the hauling units is what controls production. Obviously, you can't haul it any faster than you can load it, but if your loading unit is sitting idle waiting for trucks, is it really the factor that's controlling production?
You make a good point, very vague statement I made there. I guess what I am trying to say is if everything is timed right it will??
I agree to a certain extent. Not to the extent being voiced in this circumstance but there are some truths to that statment. Production might not be the best all around word. Example 1: You have 5 trucks (773D Cats) hauling overburden to the stockpile area 1000 yds away with a Komatsu PC400 hoe loading them. Lets say the hoe goes down, then all 5 trucks are sitting but if a truck goes down then there are still 4 more to haul the overburden. Now this would be a controlling factor for production because if the hoe goes down then prodution stops. Example 2: Same number and size of trucks but the distance to the stockpile is now 1 mile and the hoe is a Komatsu 200. Now the hoe can load the trucks and will probably be waiting for them to get back because of the long haul. It does take longer to load them but the greater distance out weighs that time. Now the trucks would be controlling some of the prodution because if one of them goes down, the burden to make up those loads is on the other trucks. If the hoe goes down then then all the trucks stop but now the number of trucks is important too the hoe is already waiting for trucks. I agree that the hoe (or the "loader") has the some burden of production all of the time but its not always 100% of the burden. The main component of the equation to determine the burden would be the logistics of the setup.
Right you are. I did not detail my statement. I always try to overtruck the loading tool, be it a loader or an excavator. That way there is always a truck there, and you can get as close as possible to 100% of the capacity of whatever you are loading with. You can add more trucks if the haul gets longer, or park some if it gets shorter. Idealy, a truck arrives when there is one more scoop to go in the one being loaded, but if you have done it for a while, you will agree, it does not always work out. If you only have 2 or 3 trucks, and the haul is longer than ideal, then the trucks control. It all depends on what you can bring to the job to do it with. What you need to watch in bidding is to bid what you can do with what is available to you to use. If a competitor has a 365 and 4 35 ton trucks, his unit price will likely be lower, because he can produce more than you with a 320 and 25 ton trucks. That is the breaks.
I agree JDOFMEMI, thats the exact same thing I told my dad. But, I don't think (but I wish) I can convince my uncle to upgrade to larger equipment to "get" the job. There are contractors he will be bidding against who are experienced with this work. My dad even proposed a new way of doing the job. Take a dozer shape up the pile to get scrapers up on top (if fit) and load goin down the hill (grade assistance) load those suckers real fast! But then again they would have to climb the hill.
Nolan I don't know what is "new" about that. Where I am at, scrapers always beat trucks unless the material is too large and rocky to fit in the can, or if the ground is too muddy to get through. If you can get scrapers there, that would seem like the way to go. Less maintenance of the dump site as well.
My mentor always said "never load trucks with an excavator, unless you really have to" and I'm pretty sure most everybody here knows when an Ex is best for the job. However, to add to the above discussion; I had the opportunity to get 10 hours on a 980C loading trucks with gravel just recently and I grabbed it...just to keep my hand in. They had more trucks than you could poke a stick at and the days output rested solely on the loader...I always had trucks waiting and they said I did about a dozen more in the shift than their regular guy who is in hospital (and I'm about as slow as they come loading trucks). Point being, because the loader was the key to the show I had the drivers put their trucks where "I" wanted, to keep the loader as productive as possible. Most of the drivers understood and appreciated what I was doing...but of course there was a few who didn't appreciate being told what to do...they just keep leading with their chins. So it all depends (again) on the conditions, the operator skill and how well the operation has been planned.
Perhaps stupid to bring up such an old post, but cost and weight may be an issue, too... the 980 comes in almost ten tons heavier than a 20-tonne machine. And probably rents for more, too, though now I'm taking wilder guesses.
I hate to say this again...b/c it has already been said.....but what the h.e. double hockey sticks. Squizzy...I am going to have to agree AND disagree with you here. I am a big wheel loader fan and would agree with you here if you don't have a large enough excavator. A 200CLC vs a 70K lb wheel loader.....the loader wins hands down every time. Now on the flip side , as much as I always want to use loaders, if you have a 60 or 80 tonne excavator vs a 70K loader....the loader will get hammered :bash !! Now with that being said....there is a cost associated with production. It's kinda like the the old racer saying...."Speed cost money....how fast do you want to go?" A 980 size machine will cost ~$12-16K per month to rent. A 200CLC will be much less than that, but you won't get the production. Of course a 650DLC will be much more to rent than that and wouldn't make sense on a 50K CY job. You have to use the most efficient system that makes the most finacial sense to each job. Sorry for the rambling....I'll stop now.:bouncegri
Here you go heres a 992 you can buy it for 32,000 do the job and sell it :yup
The way that 992 is oiled up it may not finish a 50,000 yard job before it needs to go in for a $50,000 overhaul, lol
Whats the matter with you guys. A 950 would beat the daylights offa a 200 and the you still don't have to worry about positioning trucks. Excavators of 50 plus tonnes are for loading Haul paks and articulted dump trucks. You use them in demolition, restricted access and on rocks...otherwise you only use them if thats all you have got. Loader...as the name suggests are used for "Loading"...pound for pound at least twice as fast as an Excavator. Have a look at the specs and you will see what I mean. Never use an excavator for loading unless you have to. or you are in 50 tonne plus/mining situation. Like I said, you guys know when an Excavator is best but have a look at it.
if your uncle won't rent a machine to do the job you'll just have to make do with what you got. A few weeks back my cousins Cat 320 broke down while he was digging a house foundation. Instead of calling me to see if I had anything around he got his D5 in the hole and pushed the foundation and got the job down. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get the job done. It sure would make it easier have either a Cat 980 or a Cat 345 to load those trucks.
at the present time im diggin a man made lake i have my 345cl and a d6 and two volvo off roads,myself personally i wouldnt go anything under a 330 but thats just my opinon,,,,happy digging
Amen brother. We are a big believer in using what you got. Why go and rent a machine when you have one sitting in your yard. That is like wiping before you poop, it doesn't make sense. Might as well bring in (5) 777's and (2) 992's and get the job done faster. Sure, the rent would be more and it would cost you a arm and a leg to move them, but hey, you would get the job done faster. We recently completed a $500,000 housing development that had a bulk excavation of 25,000 yds. A 12,000 yd detention basin. That job also called for 3,200 ft of 8" sanitary that was 8-19 ft deep. We did it all with our 200 Kobelco and our 35 ton artic truck. We made out good on that job too. If you had everything you needed to do a job, then you wouldn't have to work. Stick with your 200 do what you can. You will make more money that way.