By the time I'm done, we should have a text book with Deere excavator problems :Banghead As most of you know, I just bought this machine about 3 months ago, my first excavator. I put it in about 25AC of stumps and that will tell all with any machine! There was one leaking cylinder on the boom that the original owner agreed to fix when I bought it and did so. After I got it home and worked it for about week or so the other boom and the top arm cylinder started leaking. I had them repacked by a local guy who is very good at it and the Deere dealer done the first one. Started back at it and after couple of days of work and noticed that they "all" had started leaking, even the one on the bucket that hasn't been touched. Of course the more I work it the worse it gets. No codes and had Deere mechanic check pressure etc. and found nothing wrong. He had to use his lap top to check codes because my cab monitor would only show dashes (------) and just didn't work when he tried to pull codes or anything else. Pulling oil sample today. My worse fear is the pump is coming apart and metal shavings are scaring the rods or eating the seals. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
Check for water or acids in the oil. May be corroding the seal cavities. Extend the rods. You will be able to feel and see anything that is causing a leak. Also check your pin alignment they will wear your piston and head bearings out very fast
What is the age of the machine and how many hours are on it. Overheating is the most common issue I have seen for all the cylinders leaking at once but there are other possibilities. Your oil sample should give you more information to consider. It is pretty common that the chrome on the rods may be worn allowing more clearance in the packing. It could also just be the time it needs to be done.
Hello, it's a 2006 Deere 200C LC with about 2900 (correct) HRS. I did notice some hair line scaring on the cylinders that wasn't there when we re-packed them. All hydro filters were replaced about 100 HRS ago. I doubt the repacking has 40 hours and it did begin all at once for all the cylinders.
I'm pretty leery about the hours. Who buys a machine of this size and only runs it an average of 414 hours per year. Time could be an issue though as most sealing compounds have a working and shelf live of about seven years, give or take. When you talk about hair line scarring, can you feel the lines without looking at them?
check oil filter and suction screen
It's only natural to be leery about the hours, but I did verify with dealer service records etc.. If you look and willing to travel, you can find a low hour machine. Last year I bought an 2005 Deere 750C with correct 1800HRS. I have changed the tank filter, line filter and cleaned the tank screen before this started. I thought the pressure was set to high, because it is a very powerful peace of iron, but there on the spot. The scars on the rods can be felt and they run length wise.
It sounds to me like you bought a grenade. If you can feel the scratches on the rods,you're in for a world of hurt. I'd cut that filter open and take a look, and if you still have the old one, inspect it as well.
yes this sounds bang on. anytime a cylinder starts leaking you have to suspect contamination. all those little metal bits from the part you didnt know was breaking are flowing around your system at 2000psi+ doing even more damage and it takes no time at all. anytime a machine has had a hydraulic part failure, there is a very good chance it will be suffering from it for years as it takes alot of work to fully flush a hydraulic system. if someone 'just replaced the hydraulic pump' on an excavator, i wouldnt see that as a selling point - i would be wary. if they had just replaced the engine though, thats a different story.
Hello men, took oil sample and sent it off for analysis, just got it back. I'll post it below along with pictures of inside tank and screen. Haven't had time to dissect the tank filter or pilot filter. Seems to be more rust than anything. Some of the rust on the tank screen looks shiny because of the camera flash and it's oily. It doesn't appear to be that shiny with naked eye. Your thoughts are appreciated!
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Sorry, about so many post with pic's, upload troubles. And the oil analysis
Is that tank to rusty to put oil back in?
Hi, if it was me I would pull out the tank and send it to my rad shop and have them clean it with whatever solution they use and put it back on after reworking the cylinders. I have seen tanks a lot worse and still ok. Replace with all new filters clean or replace strainer and change oil. If you are rebuilding them all the oil will be out of them too so changing the oil once will probably be enough with a sample after 100hrs and then samples every engine oil change after for a little while just to keep an eye on the oil quality. I see chrome damage on your rods according to the report as well as I can make out with the poor quality pics. Looks like the silicon came through the wiper seals.
I'll agree with Andrew, but I might clean the tank myself in place, it looks like that "rust?" will come right off. I didn't see any metal bits but it's kind of hard on that screen. Did you pull any filters apart and rinse them in solvent to wash the oil off and leave the metal bits all cleaned up in the bottom of the pan? What kind of shape are the wipers in? Could some of the contamination come from the rebuilt cylinder, or suspect oil that the analysis pointed out?
Thanks for the more positive input guys, there's still hope. When I bought the machine I had one boom cylinder rebuilt before using and after about 40 hours use the other boom and the top arm cylinder started leaking. Had those two rebuilt and about another 40 hours they all started leaking again. I think all that rust just started working loose with use and worked over my cylinders good. Keep in mind that I just got the machine and it had been sitting for a while. I just hope the pump damage is at minimal. I found it funny that my local Deere said the the high levels of silicon was actually dirt. I've been watching video's of people putting small pebbles/sand in the tank and strapping them to tractor wheel that's up off the ground. Put the tractor in gear and letting the pebbles polish the inside of the tank. Some of them are quite funny, but seems to work? You can not get to it all by hand to really clean it good. That's a good idea about the radiator shop, never would have thought of it. I'll keep everyone posted, but I'm still open to any ideals on how to clean the tank! Thanks a million!
If you can disconnect the hoses from the tank, can you pressure wash (turbo nozzle) the inside of that tank, then vacuum it dry? What I see in the tank doesn't scare me, but the cylinders do. It's only 7 years old, those wipers shouldn't be letting dirt/sand/silicon in, and the rods should be in good shape (barring abuse). I'm not sold on the rust as the cause of your leaks, not by itself in only 40 hours.
Time will tell all, got to get the tank clean, change filters and new oil. Going to finish this job (about 7 more acres of stumps) do fluid analysis and go from there. Got to get the fluid analysis in better shape before I rebuild the cylinders, that's not an easy task on this machine. Just rebuilt 3, I hate to rebuild them all just have it happen again. If I see the fluid analysis clearing up, I'd like to re-chrome the rods and get the inside of the cylinders polished up before repacking. Whats the best way to get into this filter without any cross contaminating by sawing it?
Aviation snips, punch one jaw through a hole and work in a spiral. or nibbler if you have one. Not the best way, but if you had the best tool already you wouldn't be asking.
The elevated levels of chromium in that sample is what points to the chrome flaking or wearing. You could have a slight bent cylinder too to make that happen also as it would rub against the bushing in the head of the cylinder. I don't see that tank as too bad in the rust side as to cause mass leakage of the cylinders. I have seen tanks worse with good oil samples. If you say you have done cylinder work is there any warranty with your rebuilder left? Might help in the cost of all your work. You can cut your filters apart but with what I see in the sample I don't expect to see any steel or brass but you may see oring material.
AndrewC, Do you know if cylinder builders replaced #10 bushing? I have seen times (even if bushing comes in kit) when people have not replaced bushing and cylinder will leak at low hours after rebuild. Bushing is sometimes a pain to get out without scoring up walls of rod guide.
It doesn't come in the seal kit so I don't know for sure. Check your bill and see if you got charged for it.
If I had to guess, it wasn't replaced. Doesn't give detail on bill. With the torrential rain we've had for the past week, I haven't been able to touch the thing and I'm getting further behind in work every minute. Haven't been able to pull the tank, so I think I'm going to just go ahead and refill and change filters so I can get back at it and clean the tank next go around. I'll post pictures later when I cut open the filters. Wish me luck!
I haven't seen a complete seal kit that doesn't come with wear bands. Unless you only bought a head set (wiper, head poly(s) and orings)
Mike, I'm not sure if it was a complete set. I haven't been able to get anyone on the phone since July 3rd around here. Guess everyone's at the lake Think I'll join them tonight! I was able to cut open the tank filter, didn't see a thing, but thought it was dirty for under 100 hrs. Picture below. Maybe Monday I can give the pilot filter a look at. I also included a picture of some really cool finds at the current job. I believe it's an civil war era chain and a blacksmith hammer. The chain has US stamped on the swivel. It's either a mule chain or cannon ball chain? You guy's have a great week end and thanks!.
Is that filter really darker colored on the bottom than on the top? And did you try to rinse off the dirt to see what is trapped in the paper? What are the chances there was a catastrophic event, flood, major dirt in fluid, vandalism?
Delmer, yes the filter is darker at the bottom. I have not washed it or anything. When i bought the machine I changed all the fluid filters and engine oil but held up on the hydro oil till now. This filter has less than 100 hours use. I don't think a catastrophic event was any cause, but I haven't ruled out vandalism that may have been done before I got it home. I've already contacted insurance about it. Just not sure how you could prove it? Other than the fluid analysis, I barreled the old hydro oil in clean container and kept old filter.
Item 10 never comes with any rebuild kit that I have ever ordered from deere as it is a considered reusable but I always change them. A lot of excavator kits don't come with all the wear rings on the piston as well. Keep this in mind when you take your cylinders in for repair. Take a cutting 4 inches wide and two or three long and then put a rag around it and put in the vise and squeeze the oil out of it and then open it up to see whats in that filter.
Is this where you bleed the pump?
Yes. Sometimes you have take them right off and put air to the tank.
I've got oil at the one on the right. But the left one is being stubborn. I think its about 2 inches before coming out. Think its OK to start?
Pressurize the tank a little, it should come right out. I just repaired a 200C LC control valve last week and removed the plugs as I poured in new oil and it ran out of them with no problems. I think I overfilled it a little but the control valve would have been empty to use up the excess.
Probably but I'd air up the tank first and get the air out of the regulators. Did you get the cylinders rebuilt? Did you find any thing in the filter?
Where's the plug! When she comes, look out! Just ran it and cycled all the hydro, seems to be fine. I did not do the cylinders just yet and I didn't find anything visible in filter with naked eye, even after squeezing it dry. Nothing noticeable on the pilot filter either. Still haven't ruled out savitoge with that dirty oil and filter!
Gets a little messy if your not ready for it. It probably wont fix your leaking cylinders. I am guessing that by the sample results of dirt and chrome in the oil. The dirt probably came through the wipers not through the cap. I cant see it being sabotaged as the cap needs tools to remove it.
I agree it want fix the cylinders, but all the wipers were brand new except one. The expected sabotage would come from the previous owners. They had to sell it wholesale to keep from losing it, I bought it from the wholesaler. But the machine was still located at the original owners property and they weren't happy about it. They used it without permission after I paid for it and before I could pick it up, put about 10 rough hours on it, new dent's & scratches that wasn't on it when I made the deal. I didn't notice it until it was delivered, but it was already mine by then. The machine was about 9 hours out of state and my driver couldn't pick it up until almost a week after the deal. But it was insured while it was sitting there. Who know's....
Hey guy's, I'm in the middle of rebuilding all the cylinders and my mechanic only orders direct from Herculie's and the kits are 2 weeks on back order (give or take, go figure). I'm curious of a retailer that might have them in stock or another brand that would be as good or better, so I want have to spend twice the money at Deere. Any tips on a good online retailer and other brands will be a huge help! Thanks!
H&D http://www.hddistributors.com/taxonomy/term/7199
Thank you sir!
H&D were great to do business with! Now I need to find someone that sales the rod's already machined, got one I had rather replace than re-chrome. I know it.... I'm needy, but the help is always appreciated!
Got the rod from OEM replacement parts www.oemreplaceme.com . Great to do business with!
Good news!, I guess. The high levels of chromium was more than likely from the cylinder rods. Once we go it pulled apart, found a large spot where the chrome had flaked on one of the boom rods and the other boom and arm rod have wear grooves and were starting to flake as well. It seem as if the rods were in bad enough shape to where they got the seals along with the dirty oil. This grenade has turned to a firecracker!
That sounds about right, I wonder if the previous owner had the rods rechromed and someone did a bad job causing them to flake again. Sounds like you did the right thing replacing the rods before it did damage.
Make sure you do oil sampling on the hydraulics for the next little while to know if you cleaned it all out or not. It may not hurt to run it through a filter cart after you get some hours on it too.
I agree Andrew, thought about doing the analysis after about 50 hrs to see whats up and then again at 100hr or before depending on the first result. The oil that was in the machine is not what came in it (wasn't the clear Hitachi) and I have no idea what kind it was, didn't look like hyguard either, really dark (that might be because of all the contaminants). But I've been told the wrong oil can do damage, especially when it gets to hot. Check out my door vent job, it made all the difference. Not to shabby, hunh?
That Hitachi oil only is clear for about two hours then it starts turning yellow, then brown after a while and then black when you don't change the oil for a long long time. We normal sample every time we change the engine oil but I would recommend doing at 50hrs after a failure. Did your oil smell weird at all? Your door vents look factory.
The door looks good. How did you do it and do you have any close up pics?
Yes! the oil did smell weird, hard to explain, so did I after getting that oil bath when I pulled the plug. I know it wasn't Hitachi oil because that's what accidentally got put on the analysis sheet and they said it didn't match up. I would love to put Hitachi or Amsoil back in, but I can't stand the thought of blowing a hose etc. and losing it. I really appreciate the comments on the door! I did make an effort, but the layout was influenced buy the newer models. After combing the internet to see what others were doing, I just didn't see anything I liked. So I took a photo of it, got on photoshop and messed with it until I got the look. Drew it out on the door and cut it with jig saw. I ordered a piece of perforated steal from Grainger ( click here for steel ) cut it to size and rolled it a little so it would lay in the door as one piece and cover the top factory vents also. Then welded it up! It really helps as a pre-screen also for the radiator etc. pp you should be able to save the pic and zoom in on it. That's the only one I have for now.
Oil sample taking during repair, oil had about 20+ hours with new filters. Most all have dropped well over half or better. The next oil sample after repair will tell a better story.
Jus reading through. I wonder is it possible somebody mistakingly put diesel in hydraulic tank at some stage? Seen it before and i know it eats seals not sure if it would damage chrome thou
Irish, I don't think so on this machine, you need a 4mm allen to open the hyrdo tank. However, I do believe it had the wrong oil in it and it was extremely dirty. Done the work changed the oil and things seem to be clearing up.