http://asheville.craigslist.org/hvo/5374950181.html I saw this ad, and it sounds like a blown steering clutch...if I do my own repair, it is a good deal. What do you all think? If it will load on a trailer under it's own power than transport is easy. Howard
If the hours are correct that would be something to get a hold of . They were very common in my area in the 1970's & 80's . Pretty handy units that made money . I'm still trying to talk my buddy out of his JD 450C combo rig .
Could be that the steering clutches are stuck. Was a problem on 450's before the 450C which had wet clutches.
Could be, operator reports sudden failure in use...worst case scenario, clutch packs come out for rebuild. Labor is my own, heated shop large enough for the crawler, just need leverage to optimize the deal. Current owner wants out for CTL and doesn't want to take a loss on a newly purchased machine, aka buyers remorse. Howard
I've watched these with some interest. Even rarer are the dozer backhoes with a 6 way blade. I never ran either kind but suspect they have issues with all the weight in the rear. The one in the ad has a swing reduction instead of the more desirable swing cylinders.
Well, looking at the track, it seems awfully worn for under 1,000 hours... Howard
looks to have more than 900hrs
I told the guy to give me a call once he had the steering fixed and I would come look at it...I suspect the current owner overpaid and is underwater on this one. Howard
They do . For extensive work with the blade or loader bucket you detach the hoe unit . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MCr4Lm7NxI
Well, the Cl poster has admitted the steering clutch is toast and has dropped the price 3k to compensate. Time to go look at the machine. Howard
Looked at the machine yesterday with a local dozer operator/mechanic and aside from worn track and the stuck clutch it looks very good...Put a deposit down and arranging for common carrier transport. Howard
Just wanted to provide an update...hopefully I can arrange transport for the machine next week, to the local dealer for steering clutch repair. The road to my place is still solid ice and low boy would end up down a steep hill. However, in preparation, I ordered a couple cases of fuel, oil and hydraulic filters from Rock Auto at close out prices, some new 3/4 drive impact sockets and today Woot at 6 ton bottle jacks for $20 each, so I got three. I am looking forward to getting this piece of equipment up at the house so productive work can start. Howard
One more update...machine was paid for, collected, and transported to my local dealer. The mechanic who offloaded it thought I got a good deal. The track expert evaluated it on Friday and condemned the entire undercarriage, but the quote for parts was $6400 including sprocket, front roller, bottom idlers, and rebuilding the adjustors (track including shoes and chain, of course). Not too unhappy, since the track needs to come off anyhow to get to the clutches. So, it comes in tomorrow or Tuesday for a evaluation and estimate on the steering clutch cost. We are due for another foot of snow this week, so getting a machine with a worn track and stuck clutch, driven by a dozer novice like me, up the mountain, would have been a challenge. And he came down to 10k on the price...to account for the stuck clutch. I suspect I will have 20k into the machine by the time I start working it. Dedicated transport by a low boy and really nice driver was $850 or under $3/mile round trip. I know I can do this cheaper by doing the repair labor myself, but I would like the machine to be ready to work in the next month, not the next year. Now, should I save the old grouser shoes for welding rebuild? Once the track is off and the shoes are in a pile, preheat and weld repair is fun project. I have a old, old Hobart AC 300 amp welder that can weld 1/4" rod at 60% duty cycle...or essentially never have to wait for the machine between full length beads, and a propane forge for pre and post heat. Howard
Someone with more knowledge might chime in, but I don't think the tracks need to come off to do the steering clutches.
I believe the main sprocket will interfere with the shaft the clutches ride on... Howard
It's been 35 years since I worked on one. Feeble memory. I remember doing something to the left (dry) steering clutch on a 450 or 450B and repaired it without splitting the track. Maybe The clutch didn't need replacing. I raised the operator station about a foot and was able to access to repair and whatever I did fixed the problem. Maybe you'll be as lucky.
No need to break the track, just remove the bat box or the hyd. tank depending on which side it is.
not to argue, but the track has to come off anyhow for replacement! And if I am paying dealer labor, I would like to minimize labor hours by combining jobs in the same area. Thanks for the input...I would do the work myself, but time is one of the issues. Howard
I have a 450bc and if the clutches are really frozen then you have to pull the sprocket and final drive box.
Well and update...I had the local Deere dealership fix the clutches and undercarriage and asked them to change the fuel filters since I heard horror stories about losing prime. And they must have forgot. The crawler comes off the truck, goes 100 yards and dies, most likely of fuel starvation, blocking the sole access to my house and a neighbor's house. The fuel filters were full of black algae and we ended up having to run to the dealer for a sediment bowl. The front filter also had a internal failure with the top cap separating from the rest of the filter and sticking on the shaft. Now we are having trouble making it run for more that a few seconds at a time. It seems to have good flow from the tank, I took apart the petcock valve and it seemed to have good flow. and the filters are full and pressurized. Now, here what is puzzling, I hand prime using the lever on the lift pump and it takes a good hundred strokes to get resistance, but as soon as I crank it, all the resistance goes away. Could that be air in the line between the filters and injector pump or a perhaps a clog in the line between the tank and lift pump? I don't have much experience with these machines. Now, the manual says the early models had a strainer in the supply line, and the later models had a strainer in the tank, and mine is one of the last of the 450B . The crawler is NOT at my shop, but parked down by my mailbox, at the bottom of a STEEP hill to the shop. I am thinking my next step is to blow out the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump. I think the lift pump isn't getting fuel as needed and can't keep the pressure to the injector pump. To pull the tank strainer out involves pumping out the fuel tank, to blow out the line involves getting compressed air (too far for my shop system, get my portable out of storage and run 200 feet of extension cord). Plus I have this silly thing called a day job that is eating up all my time, my team is already two men down due to retirement, and our team leader has severe family health issues that are using up her time, so I am working double right now. I would like to hope it isn't an injector pump, but from what I have read, a distinct possibility. I am open for comments... Howard
Sounds like you're on the right track, if you had black goo in the filters you can bet the tank strainer is clogged, if it's still there. Sounds like you have a small compressor, you could probably pump it up until it shuts off and then transport it to the machine, should have enough in the tank to blow out a fuel line. As far as the priming pump, the Deeres I remember had a diaphragm pump with a little priming lever on the side, when you move the lever it's actually pushing a spring back and the spring pumps fuel on the off stroke. When fuel pressure comes up it holds the diaphragm up off the cam and the lever gets real easy to move because it's no longer doing any work. If the engine stops in the wrong spot and the fuel pump lever is up on the cam lobe, you can't move it enough to make it pump, have to bump the engine over a bit first. Another thing to check is the fuel outlet fitting on the injection pump and the return line to the tank, make sure they're clear. A clogged return will make the engine lose power and/or die also.
Thank you...I will go collect my portable compressor and lay down some extension cord. I don't totally agree on the function of the priming lever, because the more up pump, the more resistance you get, it just takes a long while and I have raised a blister on that finger, so I think it is directly moving the diaphragm, as does the rocker from the cam eccentric. If it was simply charging a spring, the force would be constant So if the cam is up, the diaphragm can't move down and complete a stroke...and I wonder if the lift pump has an internal check valve that might be gunked up. When my lovely wife asked me about weekend plans, I just pointed at our new lawn ornament. Howard
The lift pump will have both an inlet and an outlet check valve. Hope you get her perking.
Spray cleaner, here we come...
If you have black crap in the tank do yourself a favor. Putt the tank and clean it out. Pressure washer steam cleaner or something with some force behind it. Check for the strainer in the line. It either needs to be replaced or left out. Cut the line going to the lift pump and put in a cheap automotive fuel filter. Change the main fuel filter. You may have already messed up your injector pump by getting crap into it. Why do I know this? I have a 450 C and did this.
I suspect you are probably correct...I am slowly eliminating the other possible issues. I blew down the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump and found a check valve somewhere in the middle, that doesn't show up in the manual. The fuel coming out of the tank looks pretty clean, but I will pressure wash/steam clean as soon as I get it to my shop...now to find a good local shop to rebuild the pump. Howard
I think I'd be asking why the dealer never bothered to look at the fuel system when you told them about it. They say waitresses should always right down what someone orders even it's only a couple items so there's no confusion as to what exactly was ordered. I think when you're paying $100+ an hour to have a dealer work on your machine, they should right down in detail everything you want looked at and then advise if it's going to be more costly than expected. I would be nice about it (at first) and get the dealer out to get your machine going because it was their mistake not yours. If they had at least changed the filters and it quit is one thing but it sounds like they didn't do anything with the fuel system. You paid them enough they could get it going for you.
You raise a very interesting point...the machine loaded fine when I bought it, and unloaded fine when it got dropped off...and it went straight to the dealer for undercarriage and clutches after I bought it. The dealer did NOT cause the problem and I think they just wanted the machine out of the bay so other paying work could come in. Since the young mechanics removed some of the parts with hammers, there was a delay in reassembly. I have trouble paying $100/hr to mechanics the age of my children. However, let me troubleshoot the fuel issue before I start spreading blame around. Right now the blame is on ME for not catching the issue when I purchased the machine and I was hoping to catch up on the rest of the maintenance myself once the machine got to my shop. I learned long ago that trusting maintenance to an outside shop is expensive and often frustrating. I learned my lesson years ago when I bought my first BMW motorcycle and I became the cash cow with repeated visits on a new machine that refused to idle and kept leaking fork oil, visit after visit, under warranty. I will clean the fuel system and have a local diesel shop rebuild the injector pump. Howard
Well, progress... We pumped out the tank into five gallon buckets using a 1.9 gallon capacity vacuum fluid evacuator, something I normally use to bleed brakes and clean motorcycle tanks. Black and nasty in certain layers. We started pressure washing but it started sleeting. The amount of black crud is truly amazing. We got the bucket up far enough with a couple of high lift jacks and held by a pair of custom made 25k lbs capacity sawhorses, built to support the fabrication of trusses. I found a local vendor to rebuild the injection pump, pump has been cleaned, fan belt adjusted so we can turn the engine over with the fan. Next is to pull the valve cover so we can find #1 TDC and pull the pump. And it has a turbo...I didn't think the B's came with Turbos. Can I interest anyone in five buckets of waste diesel? Insulated coveralls in the washing machine for a long wash cycle! Howard
What makes you think the injection pump is the problem? it seems beyond obvious that you have fuel supply problems, so it would make sense to fix those first before digging the hole deeper. I agree with lantraxco about how the priming pump works, but it's easy enough to figure it out with some temporary hoses and a container of fuel. The priming pump either isn't working well, is pumping up as it's supposed to, or is pulling a vacuum. Experiment by changing some lines around and you'll know in seconds. Another option is to use a temporary tank and filter if yours is messed up as much as it sounds. "I am slowly eliminating the other possible issues. I blew down the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump and found a check valve somewhere in the middle, that doesn't show up in the manual." That sounds suspicious to me, are you sure the dealer didn't shut off a valve? "somewhere in the middle"? is that a check valve, a clog, or a valve that's closed?
Thanks so much for the input. The more input I get, the more information I have to work with. I am still coming up to speed on the diesel mechanic aspects and let me run down my personal logic trail and share it with you. And comments are most certainly welcome. I only quit work today due to freezing rain and ice pellets. If I pull the hose from the tank, downstream of the petcock, I get good flow of fuel. And I can blow down the line between the tank and the lift pump with 125 psi compressed air VERY easily. However, I cannot blow from the lift pump (line disconnected) back to the tank. There is excellent one way flow, so that to me indicated a check valve that is properly working. I am able to pull fuel from the tank and pressurize the filters with the engine off using the priming feature, so the lift pump is working. However, once I pressurize the filters and try to start, I get a brief run, up to 30 seconds or so, the engine OVERSPEEDS and shuts off. Then I lose pressure in the filters. The overspeeding to me leads to issues with the injection pump since that controls the engine speed. So, once the tank is fully clean, and the lines and filters are clean, (just need to blow down the return line, currently unhooked from the tank), what is left is the injection pump, and the overspeed condition is directly traceable to the injection pump. The valve cover needs to come off anyhow to adjust the valves, and the local injection pump rebuilder is only a few blocks from wife's office in town. An unresolved overspeed can get expensive very quickly...and that is a governor issue and with Roosta Master pumps, the governor is built into the injection pump. Please walkdown my logic and see if I have made some bad assumption along the way. While I would rather not incur the additional expense of rebuilding the pump (normal rebuild cost from this vendor is around $525), I also would rather not trash the engine. What is interesting is that there are bands of clean fuel and dirty fuel in the tank...separated by buoyancy is my guess. The tank will be clean on inside before it gets rehooked to the engine. And Don K, a few posts up experienced the black goo in the tank failing the injector pump on a 450C. Howard
The engine reving before it dies is the STANDARD symptom of running out of fuel. In this case it's nothing to worry about. The check valve is unusual, and still suspicious. I've never seen a check valve installed like that, original or otherwise. I'm not an expert, just a shade tree mechanic, so I could be wrong??? Another possibility is a collapsed rubber hose if there are any. That could easily form an effective "check valve". If you hook a temporary hose into the inlet to the transfer pump and then experiment with loosening the outlet or blocking it with a finger, you'll see how the transfer pump feels when it's pumping, vs pumped up, vs pumping air, vs sucking against a vacuum. I suspect there's a blockage before the transfer pump, it's sucking against that blockage (which would give you a blister pumping that hard that long) and it's taking so long because there's only a slight leak past that blockage. There's a BIG difference between blowing compressed air and sucking fuel through a line. The pump may be building pressure, but not have enough volume to keep up with the engine consumption and return flow, so the pressure at the injection pump drops. Loosen the supply line at the injection pump and see if you get good flow from the transfer pump, or start at the transfer pump and make sure it squirts good at every joint working towards the injection pump. It's not always enough to blow out a line with air, sometimes you have to take apart each section to find the fitting that's clogged. Edit again: another relatively quick, easy and clean way to test this transfer pump blockage out is to notice the feel of the first pump, vs the next few. Then wait 10 seconds and see if the feel goes back to original. As lantraxco said, the lever compresses the spring and the spring pumps the fuel until fuel pressure equals the spring pressure and the spring doesn't extend to be compressed back by the lever or cam. So you're not "pumping" fuel forward when you use the lever, BUT you are pulling that diaphragm back, sucking fuel into the pump, and that is what makes it hard to pump.
I like your advice... Let me complete the cleaning of the fuel system from the tank to the transfer pump, and the return line and reevaluate the situation. Howard
A common way to clean a tank like that is to drain the fuel, let it settle and siphon off the clear stuff from the top, then pour it right back through the tank. Put all the clear stuff in the tank and slosh it around good, drain and repeat until you get most of it out. I'll bet it ran fine for the shop because it had been sitting, it got sloshed around on the truck and died right away with all the gunk mixed up?
I think you got the chain of events right about perfect. The buckets of waste, contaminate fuel are going to the county waste oil collection tank. They send it to a re-refiner and it will end up as good fuel again and the county will benefit. To clean the tank, I will pressure wash until it looks clean on the inside, then use cascade as a final cleaner, prior to a good rinse. There are literally pounds of debris in the tank and I would like it clean. I have less concerns about flash rust. Howard
The reason I said that there may be a problem with the injection pump was because of the messed up filter. If nothing got by it it may be OK. Mine has no check valves in either the tank or line. Did have a small strainer where the line comes out of the tank. I removed it and put in an automotive fuel filter which has much more area.
I don't know if anything got by the filters, but the tank was bad on the inside...getting flushed with cascade and a garden hose as I write this. I am hoping for success. Howard
Firm clog point identified...fuel tank strainer. This morning, as soon as the snow melted and hose thawed out, I filled the tank, with the supply and return lines removed, of course, with water and cascade. All the fuel, including the heel, was pumped yesterday and some very preliminary pressure washing started, before the weather turned. The return fitting is flowing like a gusher, the feed fitting, with petcock and elbows removed is a very slow drip. I am going to let the water and cascade soak, probably for a day or so, then pull the strainer and continue to pressure wash. While it was showing some flow with fuel, enough to fool me, it is showing virtually NO flow with the soapy water. Nice to see clumps of black debris floating to the surface to be skimmed. I believe this would explain the observed behavior. I am STILL going to blow down the return line before buttoning back up. Thanks to all who provided input, I will keep you informed and I progress through this little issue. Howard
Well the strainer is definitely supposed to be the first thing to clog in a mess like this, sounds like you found the isssue. No use worrying about collapsed hoses, injection pumps and check valves, at this point anyway.
Cascade and pressure washing to the tank clean...now it is drying with a normal, inexpensive, household blowdryer to remove the residual moisture. Once it is bone dry, I will see if that was the actual problem! I have a good feeling since the strainer would not pass water. Now for a inexpensive, transparent and easily changed automotive cartridge style filter as a "prefilter" prior to the lift pump. Luckily I stock those by the case for some of the vintage Dodge pickups we use as farm trucks. While the 450B has been down below the house, I have been using the 68 Dodge D100 Utiline, holley, headers, glasspacks, 318/727 3.90 Suregrip as my runaround truck. Howard
Those may be made for gasoline and might not pass enough diesel. Seems like this has come up before, if it idles fine now but doesn't have power, that filter is the first thing to suspect. A filter base that fits a cheap oil filter is what I like to use.
The stories about cheap fuel filters...probably the best stories I have heard (and seen) are the small power equipment filters for 1/4" hose, often seen in bins on the counters of autoparts and lawnmower shops. They are GREAT at a quart per hour/once a week on a 3.5 hp mower, but on a 50hp motorcycle using the same 1/4" hose, the smallest amount of water will swell the paper and produce a no flow condition even though the filter LOOKS clean. In my particular vintage motorcycle community (BMW Airheads), we carry a spare piece of fuel hose, zip tied to the frame rail to bypass the filter, on the side of the road, if needed. The filters I stock are Wix and rated for gas and diesel and provide sufficient flow even for the flathead six in the M37 climbing a hill, will a full load. If I have any difficulty I will follow your advice and get the cheap oil filter external mount kit and use the big ford filters, PH8A, but in the Wix brand. The tank is dry on the inside now, once I vacuum up some remaining debris in the drain sump, I will reassemble, reprime and see what happens. Howard
And the reprime failed...it is the lift pump. Took off the inlet and it is producing NO suction. However, tank is nice and clean with new fuel! New lift pump, from Amazon will be in on Friday. By the time I get done, the fuel system will be in tip top shape. Howard
After I cleaned mine all out like you did which was probably 10 years ago have not had any problems. The 450's are very good machines for their size.
IF that pump is hard to move the lever on, I'll bet that the intake is plugged. If it's going in the trash anyway, it wouldn't hurt to see what you can pick or blast out of the intake fitting.
Actually, the opposite, the lever moves VERY easily, and when I place my finger over the intake, I feel NO suction. At $26 for a new pump, I will replace it, but will examine the old pump when it comes out. I suspect the diaphragm might have been damaged during the clean out process. The fitting will be cleaned before they are swapped to the new pump. I am looking forward to actually using the machine, and I like Don K advice also. Howard
The inline fuel filter idea will work no problem, I have used one for years on my 450 and 310 hoe without a hitch. It will keep the dirt out of your pump and it will last a lot longer. Several years ago I was a mechanic at a paving co. and all the equipment with engines in the power range of the 450 had a inline fuel filters on them, we called it a rock stopper. It was cheap and fast to change on the road and get the roller or paver back in the game. I was constantly fighting dirty fuel and this was my best option.
The Wix 33001 with 1/4 hose size fits well and has the same filter as the 33002 which is the 5/16 hose barb. I stock those for the generator and the motorcycles. Looking forward to reporting on the effectiveness. I would just avoid the cheapies desinged for lawnmowers! I am getting my fuel from a new fuel facility, at the top of a hill, with good ground water control, into new NFPA 30 metal cans, stored under cover. So the fuel going in is going to fresh and clean. I too fight bad fuel...my daughter got a bad tank of fuel south of Corpus Christi a few months ago and her car hasn't run quite right since. Howard
News...I got news. I got the tractor running this morning. Finally tracked it down to a sticking check valve in the return line from the injector pump. Here is list of what I went through: First step was fuel filters, they were clogged with black algae, then prime, prime and prime Second was cleaning the tank, draining, pressure washing, drying and blowing down the lines between the tank and the filters, through the lift pump. Tank was coated with algae on the inside. Third, replaced lift pump, because pump was a bit dodgy. Pump was ordered before tank was cleaned, just in case. Fourth, bleed from tank to injector pump until clean, using the new lift pump, that worked a whole lot better. Suddenly it is four strokes to prime from tank to filters, not 400. Finally, this morning blew down the return line, then when line was clean but still no flow from return fitting, pulled the check valve and cleaned. After that, restarted and ran like a champ, let it run for a good 30 minutes just to make sure. I suspect some of the algae might of gotten past the filters into the injector pump. The stuck check valve was the proximate cause of the problem, but lack of fuel system maintenance, as in black algae infestation, was a contributing cause. Out of pockets costs for the work... $31 for lift pump and gasket $5 for spray cleaner $50 for 30 gallons diesel $100 for 4x4 cribbing to hold bucket up for engine access $56 new fuel filters and one sediment bowl and $250 for other parts ordered when found to be bad while doing the work, like a piece of exhaust pipe and a valve cover gasket. Plus an oil change, since the filter had to come off to change out the lift pump, so add $25 for that Plus, thanks to the wife who after her day job, put on a set of greasies and helped bleed and troubleshoot. My line wrenches haven't seen this much use in YEARS. Howard
You need to put some algicide in your next few tanks of fuel, I've been through that, and it only takes one tiny piece to start it all up again, particularly on a machine that's not running 40hrs/wk. I had really good results from Startron, but others on here have had good results from others, just make sure it kills algae. Good luck, Mitch (I won't mention out loud how smart it was to publicly thank your wife, I wouldn't want her to hear me.)
And it continues... Where we left off, we had gotten the tractor running by cleaning the check valve, and let it run a bit while doing other maintenance, 3 quarts oil to transmission, about the same to the hydraulic system and three tubes of grease or so to all the zerk fitting. Plus we changed out the hydraulic filters, both by the radiator (spin on) and the big return strainer in the hydraulic tank. When we drained the externally rusted hydraulic filter, thick black out came out and when we cut it apart, the filter element was black and I suspect in bypass mode. The strainer looked OK aside from pieces of Teflon tape here and there. This morning, we actually put the machine to use and it dies twice, in 20 minutes, with a clogged check valve. Got it back to the shop, front bucket blocked per the manual with 24" 4x4x1/4 angle and the timing window removed to reveal...more chunks of black material, that look rubber like. This indicates to me that the injector pump needs to come off and take a ride downtown to our local "diesel sales and service" organization. They have a typical three day turn around and rebuilds start at $525. I guess I will be doing some OTHER maintenance, like clean the valve cover vent tube (fuel filters need to come out for that) and probably replace some hose pieces on the turbocharger intake and the turbo to valve cover drain hose, verify the turbo oil supply line is clean and adjust the valves, since the valve cover needs to come off to time the engine. And that the algae in the fuel system was unrelated to the failure of the injection pump. Now I see why I got a low hour tractor for such a good price! On the other hand, the transmission seem good and the engine sounds great when it runs. Yours in frustration, Howard
One thing about it, when you're done fixing it up, it should be bulletproof for a long time!
Yes, that sounds right. Lantraxco agrees I assume, or he would have said otherwise. Black rubber/ "coffee grounds" means a rebuild. The algae is a separate problem but could have been caused by the pump quitting and the machine sitting unused letting the algae grow. Could be worse.
Yeah, should have spoke up I guess, that's the classic symptom of the drive ring (I think that's the name) coming apart. Thepumpguysc as I recall says when they finally fail completely you have a runaway.... so yes, it's time to hie thyself to yon pump palace for a bit of renewal.
Looks like I am finally down to the meat and potatoes of the project...now it is time to "time" the engine. On a gas motor, this would be a trivial task, remove plug one, find compression stroke, and time TDC on flywheel. On this tractor, just removing the valve cover requires a variety of other parts to be removed, and then rotate engine via fan belt. I adjusted the fan belt last week as a test and got the engine to rotate via the fan, after running a bit it is loose again, so perhaps a fan belt, but that involves detaching the hydraulic pump coupler and moving the pump forward for clearance. I need to slow down so I can enjoy this project! While things like undercarriage and steering clutches are new to me (which I why I sent the piece of work out), heavy engine work is "old hat" from when I used to maintain the fleet of IH school buses back about 35 years. Let me clear a little time this week and get to it Thanks for all the great advice so far. Howard
On Deeres there's usually a timing pin hole on the left side of the block that lines up with a hole in the flywheel. Line up the marks in the timing window, pin the flywheel and have at it.
Right...normally I watch the #1 intake valve to time on TDC...if there is an easier way, I would love to know. I found the hydraulic pump disconnect, and let me see how rusty THAT is, so I can scope out the trouble in putting a new fan belt on. Every task it seems has two or three preliminary tasks. By the time I get done, this will be one well maintained tractor. And how would you recommend rotating the engine to find #1 TDC? Howard
On my 450 I was fortunate enough to have a pto so I used that to roll over the engine. There really isn't a good way to ease one around, maybe a dummy shaft where the hyd pump goes? To time the motor, take off the timing window on the pump and turn the motor till the pin slips in the flywheel, if the lines are lined up on the discs in the pump, it's on 1 tdc. I hope I explained it so you can understand, sometimes I live in my head and struggle to be understood.
I understand just fine where the timing marks are, is the mechanics of turning the engine over and getting the valve cover off so I can watch the valvetrain to see when #1 TDC is coming around. It looks like my best bet is to put a new fan belt on and turn the engine over with the hydraulic pump disconnected via the fan. Howard
I think repowerguy was trying to say you don't need to pull the valve cover. If you remove the little timing window from the side of the injection pump, the timing marks in the pump will only line up on TDC #1. Pop the pin in the flywheel hole and you're good to go.
gotcha, and I found I can rotate the flywheel, tooth by tooth via the timing hole...good deal. Howard
There is a Deere tool to rotate the flywheel using the hole you're using probably. I thought the belt would work, if it's too loose, grab the belt mid span to keep it tight while easing the fan blade around.
Lan must be in my head also, because he understood, that explains the voices..
Hmm, what do that say about me tho? :tong
They say Lan is the worlds greatest Morooka mechanic bar none!
LMAO! I think I started that rumor.... no, I have some knowledge of them, especially the older units, but I'm no expert. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Oh, and Bar None is where I have a beer now and then! :drinkup Watched an episode of Big Fix Alaska where the head honcho swapped a Cummins 5BT into a Morooka 1500. Had to helicopter the engine in to a remote lake. Guy's a butcher, was I supposed to be impressed with the field fixes? Ah well, who am I to argue with a "Master Mechanic"?
I second that! That man's got more ooka than anybody I know!
Now now boys....
Good morning and thanks for all the help yesterday. We finally got the engine timed, and it has a replacement flywheel in it without the 1/2" timing hole...so we made our own mark with a black sharpie. Just like pulling a distributor in a gas engine except there are hard plumbed hoses instead of wires. With the help of the wife to watch for the timing mark on the pump, and with me turning the flywheel and look for that mark, we got it timed in under 30 minutes. I am going to the local diesel emporium and drop the pump off this morning and maybe get it back by Friday so I can reassemble and work the tractor over the weekend. It looks like the belly pan needs to come off for a good cleaning and to free up the hydraulic pump release mechanism so I can put a new belt on it...Rock Auto has them for $8 so I ordered two in both sizes spec'd in the manual! Again, thanks for all the assistance, the crawler loader configuration puts the parts that should be easy to get to, like the fan belt, in difficult places and the parts normally hard to get to, like the flywheel in easy places. Howard
Just an update, got a call back from our local diesel emporium, cost to rebuild the Roosa-Master injector pump is under $600 with tax and will be ready in about a week...so things are moving. Howard
That ain't bad
Well, injection pump came back and after solving some thread issues, timed right up and is running great...could use a stronger hydraulic pump, I know several different capacity pumps were offered as options. Wife is having a blast at playing operator...first job she did was to tear up the raised bed garden for a hot tub install! Howard
:drinkup
A friend's father is a white collar sort. The father bought a Kubota toy backhoe/loader. He loaned it to his son for a month or two. Mrs. son commandeered it, and refused to surrender it. He referred to her as having a five gallon a day habit. He had numerous projects on the agenda, none got done. Lots of lovely landscaping did get done.
I like that, a five gallon a day habit. We looked at the B and BX series Kubota backhoe/loaders. They looked great for a hobby farm or a landscaper. But they were expensive and they looked awfully delicate for a logging road. My wife grew up on a large cattle farm in West Tennessee and she is used to operating heavy JD equipment, the farm had some big cab 8000 series tractors. At her suggestion, we got a 275 gallons used fuel oil tank. It has been cleaned, painted, a new cradle fabricated and a new pump waiting to be installed. My wife's diesel fuel habit will be in the from of a phone call to Volunteer Oil for a delivery when they are in our area. On the other hand, she is saving me $20/hr from hiring an operator. Howard
I'm kind of jealous. I've tried to persuade Mrs B to use a loader. She runs around with a little trailer hooked to either a lawn tractor, or a little 20 HP Mitsubishi 4x4 tractor I got cheap. She can't back up a trailer, so things often go badly. A friend wanted to borrow my Case backhoe. He brought me a Kubota, maybe 23 Horsepower little tractor. That was the weekend I installed the invisible fence. Digging a 6" deep trench wasn't all that bad, until I crossed the driveway! Three hours later I had 40' of 6" deep ditch across the driveway. The smallest diesel 4x4s with backhoe & loader aren't very much more useful than a wheelbarrow and round shovel. While I had it, a do it himself customer had overshot the power pole installing conduit for his new underground service. The power company refused to connect. It was 3' past the pole, exited the ground in schedule 40 conduit, and about a 45 degree angle from vertical. A simple job, dig down 4 feet, cut back the conduit, bend schedule 80, and couple on. With my case I'd have finished the digging in 20 minutes. Part of that time would be unloading. With the little machine, it had so little reach, by the fifth scoop it was falling back in the hole. I had to turn around several times to use the loader to move the spoils pile. All told it took 5 hours!
I feel for you...and getting a big enough piece of equipment to do want needs to be done around here has not been cheap or easy. Two wheel drive backhoes tend to sink and stick, four wheel drives in the used market start at 25k or so, plus they all need work. So we found this crawler, put in some renovation money and now we are finally seeing some use out of it. Sorry to hear about your terrible Kubota experience, in Texas they were seen as premium ag machines, but expensive on parts. We could have gotten a new ** compact for the same money, but they don't do so well digging stumps or installing drains, two of our main uses. Howard
I don't separate Kubota from other manufacturers. Too many people buy a tiny tractor that won't meet their needs. Many people want new. New prices are high, so they buy little. These things are best limited to old men who retired too early from white collar jobs. Willie
Well, people tend to underestimate their needs and overestimate the capability of a machine. Also, they fell safer in buying new instead of leaving how to operate an old tractor with possibly degraded operations, they buy a new small tractor, and then bend that up manhandling it. Maintenance of heavy equipment can be scary to some people. I am not installing flower beds or placing underground sprinkler lines, I will be building a large, personal park to live in. There are culverts to install, large, dead hemlocks to remove, haul and dig stumps, mudholes to be drained, road to be built and if I thought I could accomplish those tasks with a mini-tractor I would have bought one. I see too many people trading up from garden tractor to compact to utility and finally after six iterations end up with something useful for their particular needs. Two of my main needs are to maintain fire roads and breaks and design, install and maintain a proper drainage system. As for older men, retiring from cushy inside jobs, that would be me...July would be 30 years as an engineer and eligible for retirement. But I have a younger wife who is still working, so I will work a while yet and bolster my retirement pay. Howard
Go big or go home.
Interesting read! Got any pictures of your machine?
My best story is the business owner who passed his business to the younger generation. He bought a small TLB in the 35 hp range. I won't name names, it's orange. We drove by his home, an extensive spread frequently for about two months. He owned an abandoned apple orchard of about an acre. The trees were neglected long enough to be of no value. He was going to dig them out. Meadow, or new orchard might have been the plan. He hired people to cut the trees, and haul it all away. Then, day after day, he'd be out there digging out the first stump. Ultimately he painted a face on the stump, and left it there. Had he bought a tractor like mine, it'd have cost half as much, and he'd spend 15 minutes per stump. Another man I've known many years bought one even smaller at retirement age. His plan was to busy himself doing little excavating jobs. He'd keep busy, and make a little money to supplement retirement income. His first job was to restore an overgrown area of lawn on a big rural lot. There were lots of 6" trees. He soon understood it wasn't going to work.
With the Deere 450B I expect to be able to extract root balls six feet in diameter...and if the tractor is unable to achieve that result, rebuilt the hydraulics until I can achieve that. I have spent enough time on large construction jobs to understand the limitations of equipment! Howard
I think you've made a good choice. The three bar shoes you likely have will be gentle to lawn, the backhoe is big enough to tackle any job. The loader I'd prefer not to use as the only one in a big aggregate facility, but a bit slower it'll load anything. I will urge you to figure out a way to keep it under cover. Do not let it sit on the ground. I have a hidden spot I'm installing an old oil tank as a cheap makeshift garage. I'll lay plastic on the floor, cover it with 6" of crushed stone, and park on tires to avoid moisture. The dry clutches need protection from moisture when not in use. Willie
I have a well drained gravel pad with a large concrete floored pole barn, dry and safe from over 1000 feet of underground french drain... As for lawn, we have little! Next step, dig out raised bed garden for the hot tub. Howard
Yesterday was finally a "day off" and we ran the tractor most of the day, installing a hot tub no less in our old raised bed garden. ...while I took a few days off from my day job from Thursday to Tuesday, I had family business to attend to 1,500 miles away and ended up repairing the fuel injection on my daughter's V6 Honda in a shade tree in a parking lot! It seems that no one locally could find a bad idle air valve located just below the throttle body. Bought a set of tools, left them with my prospective son-in-law. Anyhow, I tried the high power grease gun methodology in the very dry and un-greaseable clam cylinder pins and broke the new grease gun. And the joint got taken apart on one side, pins are SHOT, bushings look good with the oil holes rotated. I figure I can drill new grease holes in the bushing, in situ, and make new pins out of 3/2" drill rod, using tool steel and heat treating in my propane powered blacksmith forge. The other side is getting a oil soak and will get wacked with sledge later on tonight. Since it is a drott bucket, Case handles the parts and the local Case guy doesn't like the Deere part numbers! I found the original data plate, with layers of paint and rust on it, but for a job this simple, why bother buying factory parts. I will get the data plate clean for when I really need parts. Now to order a 1' bar of tool steel, 1 and 1/2" in diameter... Howard