Hi guys,wich one do you prefer?The Deere 710j or the Cat 450e?Please vote and said your opinion.Wich one of the two major manufacturer produce the best big backhoe loader?
The Deere will run circles around the Cat.The J rigs are even more impressive than the G's
Cat doesn't make a 450E......... They make a 416E, 420E, 430E & 446D but no 450E........ http://cat.com/cda/layout?m=37840&x=7
i am not a big jd fan when it comes to backhoes. its top heavy like the old 780 case and when your loading trucks you have to watch the counter weight inthe front because it hits the rim of the wheel.backhoe part i give a thumbs up .the backhoe i like for digging and loading 420 and :my2c 430
The 450E is a new model, but I don't know if it's in production yet.
450E must be Cat trying to compete with the John Deere 710
I thought that's what the 446 was for and the 450E is just going to replace the 446? I haven't really compared them (446,710) to see if they are close.
The 450E is the replacement of thr 446D and is aimed squarely at the 710's market share.
ill leave our cat in the closet and bring out the 710 anytime that is one monster of a backhoe,,
A 710 is a excavator on wheels. I'm not a john deere guy, but I have to give them credit when it comes to backhoes.
The 710 is not top heavy at all and the Case 780 is barely in the same ballpark with it.It's a nicely balanced machine as are all JD hoes from the B series on up.The counterweight you mention that extends is for a second and third weight that does protrude past the grille.If you're loading trucks often, like I do, simply remove them.The 500 lbs. I lost is barely noticeable.
We have a 710D and it is a hell of a loader and a backhoe. We also have various 410's. I really like JD backhoes, good visibility, power, balance. I have run Case and Cat too, the Cat was a 420 IT I didn't get to run the hoe, but the loader didn't do anything for me. The Case was a little better, but I'll still take a Deere for backhoes and 100hp dozers and less.
710J all the way baby:woohoo 6 cylinders 122 HP 28K lbs What more do you want? The 450E can't touch this!!
Out of curiosity, have you seen any specs comparing the performance of these two yet? And I wonder if the boys in Clayton, NC are watching this thread... the E-series was among the most ambitious new product programs launched (certainly in relation to the size of the machine). It's a shame to see quality go to the bottom and then see such low opinion of the 450E. It's actually kind of disheartening.
Is the 450E out yet Tiger?
Only what I saw at WOC this year Tiger. If the 710 was such a target for the 450E I was very surprised to see that Cat continued to put a 4 cylinder engine in it. :beatsme The new E-series cabs are nice though. It is just too bad that they haven't been able to figure out the whole EH thing yet cause the TMC J's are sweeeet!:thumbsup
I vote for a Dynahoe
Don't laugh a dynahoe 140 and a mack b61 6 wheeler put me in business.
OK my "?"; Why would you want such a large backhoe?? Isn't it easier just to buy a larger excavator?? And more productive??
A Dynahoe?!!!!!!! I'd hoped to bury my memories of Dynahoe's so deeply that I would never think of them again...........
amen to that
probably but,a big backhoe loader replace a wheel loader and an excavator.The cost is more big than two machines and a wheel loader and an excavator is perfect for some job but a big backhoe is perfect for other job.It depend about the type of work.Big backhoe loader=utility (in general) and other and excavator and wheel loader=big project.Just an exemple.
pretty much sumed up what I was going to say equipment fan. We use ours a lot for hoe packing because it can run a big one, and it also has a front coupler so it can shuttle pipe with forks or bring stone to the trench with a bucket. When we use it to dig it is a beast, just don't much because it is the main hoe pac machine. It is really 2 machines in one. Many municipalities and the DOT here use 710's because they are like two machines in 1.
I thought so just wondering. I don't see many over the CAT 320D IT size so I was just wondering.....
First point: interesting... all of what I have to say is hearsay, but perhaps they wanted to make the entire line have a common engine (the E-series aren't Tier III yet, so my guess is they'll go to C4.4). It'd probably be easier to uprate a C4.4 for use in the 450E than it would be to figure out how to put in a C6.6 and reroute everything. Second point: that's a loooong story that I'm not going to tell. But I know what you're saying -- EH controls have come a long way (M-series, anyone?), and it's a pity Cat didn't put them into the E-series...
I have always preferred the John Deere backhoes. I have tried the others, but I find that the John Deere is more precise. At least for me. I have a plumber I do work for that rents a 710 for me when mine won't dig deep enough to connect to some of the sewer pipes in the street (some are 16 to 18 feet down). The 710 is a beast. Once we had to clear what an arborist called the biggest cottonwood stump in the area - a 6ft. by 8ft. oval cut to the ground. I dug it out with the 710. I had the front bucket packed with wet dirt and when I hooked onto that stump it would lift up the front of the backhoe at about 1/3 throttle. After I dug it out we found out why it got so big. Near it was an old 1200 gal septic tank (before the sewer system was put in) that had one solid root ball in it. There was no spare room in that tank. The tree was on steroids. I am not a big fan of the John Deere loader controls, as I have used other machines that I like better. When it comes to the backhoe controls, I like the feel of the John Deere. When I have used Cat, I have switched hoses to get the same operating pattern as the Deere whenever I have someone in the trench. I am so used to the Deere pattern, I fear hurting someone while adapting to the Cat.
I'm pretty sure Cat has a switch in them to convert to the Deere pattern
The couple I have used didn't but maybe the newer ones do. I really like the Bobcat larger excavators. The controls feel just like the John Deere - when the switch is in the Deere position. I am dangerous for about 20 or 30 minutes when switched to excavator controls. I have to really think about what I am doing. It is worse than learning something new, because first you have to unlearn what your are used to, and then learn the new one. Once you "adapt", all is well.
deere 710j vs. cat 450e As I recall, you had to go under a panel to switch the controls on a Cat over to the Deere pattern. Maybe they have it out in the open now.
I'm the same way Bob. I damn near ripped the tailgate off my dump truck the first time I loaded with an excavator.
Yes they do......
It used to be a mechanical switch (on the D-series), but now the control is in the cab, and you can change from Cat to Deere or back with the overused "press of a button." Edit: didn't see Jazak's post. Sorry!
Its no problem your post was more informative then mine
I was disappointed to see Cat cave in to the "push button" fever and replace the mechanical pattern changing switch with an electric switch. I love the smoothness and ease of electronic stuff, but it's way too easy to break. I feel the same way about the new Deere controls. The joysticks mounted to the seat changing from backhoe to loader function from a switch triggered when you spin the seat is just asking for trouble. It must be great when it works, but the second it doesn't, you're done. Think of how many times you spin the seat in a backhoe. But I guess since everyone is doing it...
This is very true, but there are design considerations beyond smoothness vs. durability that go into every machine. EH controls afford complete control over laser grading systems, for instance, and even if not that, can allow you to put in certain return-to-dig positions -- set a point to go back to every time, dig, dump, and go back to that position just by hitting a button. If companies are trying to make it easier to get and keep hired help, features like this will make operating machines easier and more comfortable. The tradeoff of durability (and not just mechanical, but also what happens if the machine's electronics go haywire) is really what's tested a LOT. There might be problems at first, but the sheer number of possibilities offered by EH systems just about outweighs the few design constraints that need to be overcome. Don't get me wrong: I've heard the "keep 'em good and simple" argument many times (and have said it myself for certain machines that I've operated), but companies need to innovate increasingly more to maintain their position. This isn't a direct response to you, Cat420; it's more of a general statement on EH controls and why companies are moving increasingly toward them.
I told the bosses to buy a 710G... Last machine they bought was a little wimpy 420EIT... Too small for the work we do, always need to go walk over a 320C excavator to help it out when the going gets tough... The electronic controls suck, too. I broke the front loader boom control on the 420, couldn't believe it, happened when the boom was up in the air, too. had to drive it with the boom up, everybody was looking at me like i was smoking crack while operating.
Engines The Cat 450E has a 124-net-hp Cat C4.4 electronically controlled Tier 3 engine, according to our information. The Deere 710J puts out 122 hp with a 6068T 6.8L. We haven't compared 'em, but we put the ESeries against its predecessor (actually, it was the 420 E IT). You can see that Field Test here: http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6311743.html and see the writeups for the 710J here: http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6430912.html
Knowing Deere very well,I'm sure they put this new system to thousands of hours before running with it.They held back the B series for 7 years,finally releasing them in '83.That's dedication tempered with mucho patience. I would love to have a 410J, but my G is still spoiling me constantly--can't justify it-------------YET!
I know of 2 450E models that are already out in the field doing "field testing". Haven't had the chance to run one yet. Does anyone know what the GVW of the 450E is ??? I'm wondering if I can haul one on my rig. http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/Jim_Cooney/img_0707.jpg http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/Jim_Cooney/img_0708.jpg
steele,do you plan to buy one???
Deere 710J is about 23-26000 pounds, expect Cat to be at same or slightly more.
Possibly, I do alot of commercial work. All depends on if I can transport with my Peterbilt.
I don't see too many guys running straight truck equipment haulers. There is a company in town with tow of them, 4800 4x4's with a pusher axle; they are used for skids, minis and tractors. Makes it easier to get through heavy traffic and the crazy streets we have in town.
Would that be to tall ?
A friend of ours for example has a 710D 4x4 standard hoe with over 12,000 hours and 0 problems. Ive heard of guys who had 310B's put over 8,000 hard hours of abuse and never even changed a hose. Going on to the new Total Machine Control option on the J series. A friend just traded for a 310SJ w/TMC, the technology is impressive but it's a totally different world verses a standard control machine. I had a very hard time getting use to it. I spent very little time on it though. It was as if you were in front of your computer with 2 computer joysticks. No feel or feedback. The machine has 3 work modes, low/medium/fast. Its hard to find the right "spot" to be. I have never seen a backhoe so fast. 1/4 throttle and it will move faster than any backhoe Ive ever seen on the back end. On this machine you loose the ability to be able feel the valves open and be able to cushin your movements. Standard pilot controls don't have the same feel and response as mechanical controls but still give feedback. TMC to me has it's own brain, you just tell it what to do. Besides the controls, the machine itself (although much smaller than a 710 or 450,) was a very impressive machine. Deere thought of everything. To sit in a Cat or Case verses a Deere, the Deere is highly advanced. Placement of switches, pedals, service check points, grease fittings. The design of quick couplers. The Deere will take Cat, JRB, and Deere attachments. The job it was on was all sand, the machine would dig itself a hole. I was told the transmition is the same tranny used in a 444 loader. The loader end was fast also. I spent less than 2 hours on the machine so I can't truly compare it but these were my first impressions and what I learned from the guy who owns it. Just my 2 cents.I myself am young and this is the wave of the future. I still prefer mechanical controls any day of the week over pilot controls. My vote is 100% for a 710 over a 450.
The 71oj Is A Nice Machine. Gas Company In Omaha Has A Couple Of Them. Outdig The Cat Anyday!
Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I figured I'd be better than starting a new one. Anyway, here's a shot of a 710J I took back in '07 next to a 410J.
I bought a 710G in 2003. Very good digging machine.
The 710 will eat a cat and push like a d5 its just big and awkward sometimes
Even a 410G vs. 430EIT. Deere hands down. Cats to clumsy, sluggish, and cant turn for nuthing. Think an older 590SL has it all over a brand new 430 to.
I haven't seen a Cat 450E yet, but I got a chance to see a 710J up close the other day. It was HUGE! How much does one of those things weigh?
I believe they're in the 26000 to 28000 pound range.
Bump bump!
Do you guys think the 710 is too big for street work? Sometimes I find myself fitting my old 580 into tight spots to dig...
Most of the time yes a 710 is too big for street work. We have almost exclusively 710's for hoe packing they are a beast and rather clumsy. The size comes in very handy quite a lot with us, but at the same time wheeling in and out of small places is a little harder than with your 580. I backfilled a small sewer vault this summer in a backyard with one of our 710G's and it was an adventure to say the least. Trying to turn that monster around to try and push in, and then whip round to use the hoe pack was not as much fun as you might think. I spent most of the time hoe packing on one stabilizer and my loader in the air over the guys fence. I'll tell ya though... I spent a few hours in our 710J WOW. They are a beast but the power there is incredible. I like our G's but I don't like them at the same time. The D's are very nice and stable, the G always feels like its ready to rollover and play dead on you. The J seems to be stable more like the D series machine.