Hey all! New member to the forum however not new to the forum. Been stalking ya'll for years getting fantastic information that has helped me a lot over the years. So a big thank you to ya'll for that! I am a farmer and have owned a lot of different equipment over the years, and am looking at getting a larger excavator for the farm to help out the 12,000lb excavator that we have that is getting overworked. I have several thousand hours seat time in smaller excavators (6,000lb to 12,000lb) but not as much in the bigger hoes. I have a few questions for you guys, Deere vs. Cat excavators in the 160-200 class. I want to hear from people who have either had seat time running them or have owned them, or have worked on and repaired them. Year range I'm looking at are 1996ish to 2009ish. Questions are as follows, 1. How much of a size difference are we talking overall size between 160 and 200? (I will be hauling with a 45' step deck style equipment trailer with hydraulic ramps behind a KW T800) 2. In your experience, which brand is easier to work on and has the best parts availability and why? 3. Longevity between deere vs. cat and what are some known issues in the model years, if there is any? 4. How many hours if taken care of can these machines go for without major issues? 5. Quick tach, what are the better or more popular styles that you would recommend? If I think of more questions I will post them. Whatever brand I get will have a hydraulic thumb on it as a must for what I am going to do with it (Tree, stump and brush removal, grading, loading manure spreaders.) Might consider a 120-140 size but concerned it would be too small but talk to me! I could be all washed up. I wouldn't mind hearing about Hitachi as well. Other brands probably not as dealer support isn't great for the other brands near me. Cat and Deere dealers are fairly close to me. I run a lot of Deere equipment, (tractors, wheel loader, etc) so kinda leaning that way but what are your thoughts? Thanks again in advance and let the good conversation flow!!
In our experience Hitachi/Deere & Cat: top tier brands, excellent parts availability. These days all parts are pretty pricey….but generally, our local dealers aren’t too outrageous. Haven’t ran a 160, but owned a Hitachi zx135 & Hitachi zx120 (both early 2000’s, pre emissions Isuzu power). Really nice hydraulic’s & super good on fuel. No major repairs in 3500-4000 combined hours. Both had nice heavy built Daequip pro-link thumbs (highly recommend a link thumb if possible for extended range of motion)—-Really like this size machine, easy to move but still enough reach & weight for most work. Also ran a Hitachi Ex270 roadbuilder for 2 mining seasons. Really stable platform (long undercarriage, heavy guarding etc). A more capable machine for heavy brush clearing, trees/stumps etc. The Hino diesel was really fond of fuel! This machine had well over 20,000h and still ran really well (rebuilt pumps)—-A bit large for easy moving (11’ 2” width). The Deere equivalent machines generally differ in that they have Deere power/cooling(?). Otherwise same as Hitachi (afaik) Currently (last 7 years) running a Hyundai 210-7 (2003). A fair bit more reach and weight than the 120’s but not too bad for low-bedding (10’ 2” width). We do a fair bit of road building/clearing and a lot of bulk earth moving so the economics of the 210 versus the 120’s “penciled out” in our favour. All our larger machines used “WBM” style ears and manual wedge lock couplers. I like the simplicity & durability of this system. Also doesn’t change the bucket tip dig radius much. We did have a pin grabber on a Cat 304 mini….didn’t really like how it made the bucket a bit “sloppy”. Could be a bit of a regional thing as you see very few pin grabbers here in general. All our equipment is pre-emissions as we work in really remote locations. Regarding ease of maintenance I did prefer the 120 over the 135 (reduced tail swing). I don’t think you could go wrong with any of the brands you are considering, just need to figure out what size would be most appropriate for your particular needs.
I don't run either of those brands, but somethings are true regardless of what color they are. If your step deck is a tandem axle, you may not have enough trailer to haul a 200 size machine. A lot depends on the light weight of the truck and trailer, but I wouldn't assume you have enough, especially if its only 45' in length. The other issue is you may be too tall with a 200. As far as comparison between a 160 and 210. If the 160 has the 10' stick you will have very near the same reach as a 210. The 160 is 8' wide so its easier to trailer, but may be a little tippy over the side at full extension with a loaded bucket. I run a 42" dig bucket on a 160 and a 210 would run a 48" dig bucket. I use a tandem axle step deck at times to haul my 160 and with an 880 Kenworth, my total weight is 79K. So I have no room even to add more buckets with that step deck. I am also 13' 6' in the air, so not a lot more room there either. As far as how long they last and known issues, you would really need to nail down what models and years your specifically interested in. Buying anything used, is a gamble. So how long they last largely depends on whether the previous owners kept up on the maintenance and took care of the machine. You hear stories of guys putting 15K on an excavator with zero breakdowns, and the next guy is putting in a hyd. pump at 5k. Do your due diligence and have a machine checked out by a mechanic, hopefully a guy that knows that machine, pull oil samples and try and make a sound decision based off what the samples and a mechanic has to say. I like pin grabbers and I like prolink thumbs, but in your case, you might want to take whatever thumb happens to be on the machine. A 145 sized machines are nice, zero tail, lighter, easier to mobilize. Obviously they wont fling dirt like a 210, but being a farmer your not living and dying off its ability to throw dirt, all day, every day. The other advantages of the machine, might make it worth looking at. These sized machines hold their value very well, especially those used in good condition. I wouldn't get to wrapped up in a Deere, unless you happen to have a Deere construction store near you. The green tractor guys wont be a lot of help on a large excavator.
Welcome to the Forums! For starters the D series Cat excavators are some of the best of the brand IMO. Owned 2 C's, 3 D's and 1 F. Currently have a 321DLCR and 325 Next Gen. How often will you need to move the machine?
I always thought a 160 would be a really nice size machine, just couldn’t find one in our price range….
They are great for moving, as @CM1995 is hinting at. If it gets to stay on the farm, get more excavator rather than pay the 160 premium.
Yeah that's what I was going towards. If the machine was going to be on one parcel of land for a months at a time I would go bigger than a 315 or 320. Probably a 33O sized machine, 75-85K lb range.
^ march across the property and slay all the dragons, rescue the princess, then get back on a lowboy and sail off into the sunset.
Awesome replies so far! Thanks for the input! To answer the question of how often the machine needs to move, couple times a year maybe and that move would be about a mile. If it wasn't for the nice pretty asphalt the county has we could walk the machine lol! Farthest it would travel would be maybe five miles, that would only be to help a friend or the like. Otherwise it would mostly live on a couple pieces of land a mile apart.
See, I was wondering about that. Yes it is a double axle trailer. Truck is a longer framed truck, but no drops. Nothing fancy other than 3/8" frame and lots of hp for the kitty. lol. I didn't realize a 160 and 200 were that close as far as overall size. Very good to know. Yes, I do prefer the linked thumbs myself as well. I do have a deere construction and logging dealer nearby as well as the ag dealer. Cat and deere are well represented in my area. I was warned that the ag guys wouldn't be able to help with the yellow iron.
So, I guess the question should be asked, how much smaller is a 120 from a 160? Compared to your 200, how much "slower production" was it than the 200? 50%? I have seen quite a few 135's and 145's for sale, most with blades which seem like they could be handy on the one hand but the blade would probably get in the way no? We will be getting a dozer at some point so don't think it would be that important. Are the ZTS machines still pretty stable or? Yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons I came here to ask is for size comparison besides the brand. Last thing I want to do is get a machine that I wish was bigger, but at the same time don't want to get something that is to big and clumsy.
Make sure it's narrow enough to not be a pilot car load. The 200 a friend has requires a pilot car as it's over 10ft wide. We are allowed 15ft high before needing a permit, no such thing as 13.5ft limit here. That being said, it's been moved dozens of times (hires it out) and maybe once they had a pilot car
Sounds like you won’t have to move the machine often; that would skew me towards the 200 size. The extra reach is substantial, as well as increased bucket capacity/digging power in hard ground. When clearing trees bigger is generally SAFER/faster….that said we have done a lot of clearing/road building with the 120’s. Digging test trenches/pits to maximum depth a blade would be a hindrance in our situation. Production (especially when stripping overburden or moving tailings) with the 210 is more than doubled compared to the 120….increased reach and bucket size. The extra width (10’2” versus 8’ 6”) gives a fair bit of extra stability. Stripping loose silt/gravel overburden (easy digging on our site) the 210 runs a 2 yard cleanup bucket versus a 1 yard bucket on the 120. In our situation that means more hours/day running the wash plant. Regarding stability; the 135 (reduced tail) we ran was just as stable as the 120 (I actually thought it was a bit better)….but the 135 also had wide pads. All other specs on these machines are identical. We are only allowed a 3m width on mining exploration trails so the 135 was really nice when road building on steep slopes with high cut banks.
Moving a mile down a county road is an informal thing. The OP won't have to worry about that. Unless you have some other need that is for certain a hired out mobilization. It would never pencil out to get your own float and tractor for it.
Or you could go really big for farm use, my buddy bought this beast for $25,000!, 11k less than we paid for a Deere 50 mini. Even has a thumb. A bit of work to move though lol!
If you are hooking onto stumps, there is no replacement for displacement. I have a 120 to use, and it is miserable to stump with if you have ever done it with bigger iron. It takes fractions of an hour to do what a 200 does in seconds. This adds up quickly when stumping a patch of bigger trees. Once you get your "position perception" tuned up, you can do anything with a bigger machine, short of walking between too narrow a gap. Having the ass on it is not that big a liability. Remember you also have reach, so you can track into a narrow spot and reach out a long ways to do some work, and track back out without swinging. They are smoother to run, easier on your body.
I full agree with everything skyking1 wrote above. Really good observations/advice. There really is no comparison between the 120 size to 200 size when it comes to “bush work”. No pilot car is required here for a 210 sized machine.
Here is some stumping I did with the 120 last spring. This is the biggest stump and I messed with this big fir for a half our before it broke in two and gave up. That chunk was 3K by the butt dynamometer. A 200 would have split that right off. For a lot of stumping and road building, a 400 is the right size but the 120 is not so much fun. Did I get it done? Sure. Don't let having an ass overhang hold you back. I sneaked in there and back out without bending up that tarp garage. I have a mini also, but I used the 120 here. There was no place to put the dirt to the side and the 120 reach made it possible. It all needed tracked out of there one way or another.
The other thing about stumping is burning, usually. A bunch of half stumps burn up much faster than whole stumps. Bigger machines or rippers split them better than smaller iron.
Those are some good sized stumps, nice clean pile. Some piles around here are burned with about a 50 percent dirt content lol! Then they smoulder for a month…
Some good examples of what a 120 size machine is capable of…
The irony is I could not burn it. I had to hide it in a corner. I kept it all clean but the burn permit they could get specifically stated no stumps, and the fire department had been out there so we dared not try.
We use a version of the poor man's hammer on stumps - pick them up as high as the machine can lift and throw them. Usually after a couple of times most of the dirt comes off. Also helps to stack the bigger ones close to the burn pit so the heat can dry them out. We place the stumps around the dirt berm to dry out. Usually place the stumps in the fire pit at the end of the day (not supposed to add any material but ya' know) so they can sit in the hot coals all night. Next day take a poker log and 99% of the dirt comes off. Works well especially if you need to clean the burn pit out that morning before firing it back up again.
I roll them on their butt cut and tooth as much as I can out of there before the dropping commences. If you leave them roots up and it rains a bunch, that does not hurt either
This is trend I have been hearing, if you don't need to move it get a 200 or larger. Around here you can get a really nice 200plus sized machine, with maybe a few buckets for around $15-20k less than a 120-160 sized machine. I have seen lots of them for sale locally.
Very good points! Thank you very much for the pictures and times for digging the stumps! Very helpful for size comparison to what I have already. I could have (and have) dug out those size stumps with my 12,000lb machine. Extremely hard on it and not exactly friendly on your body either and you'd be there a very long time! Excavators are impressive this way. However, Based on what I am hearing this far, probably going to be leaning towards a bigger machine.
So, regarding deere and hitachi, who made who first? It has been said here and I've heard from a lot of other people that they are the same machine minus engine and pumps, so can you buy parts for each at opposing dealers? (eg. buying deere parts at hitachi and vice versa) And parts availability for hitachi, at least for the older machines, is it good being its a foreign machine? Are there grey market issues? And what is cat numbers for 200 sized machines again?
Haha! That thing must be a beast! Thats a very good price as well! Did you have to break it down to move it?
I really doubt you would regret the larger size. Same thing around here in regards to pricing, we got our 210 in 2017 for a really good price from our local Cat Finning dealer. It was an ex city of Kamloops machine and came with a full new undercarriage and 3 buckets (the vee bucket had the most use) dig and c/u bucket almost new.
Well yeah the stick is off in that picture, and the counterweight. There are no grey market Deere's period. There are no grey market Hitachi in that size in the US that I have seen. Cat uses the last 2 numbers in a model to indicate metric tons. 320 = 20 metric tons.
Yes, he had to break it down. It was for quarry use (large dimension stone) We were able to buy parts at either Deere or Hitachi. The Zx135 and Zx120 were both grey market, but seemed to be no problem (and was never mentioned when at a parts counter) but proceed with caution….due diligence etc,etc. Second number in Cat is weight, ie. 320 is a 20t.
That has me wondering now, I seem to recall Japanese writing on some decals etc. but possibly weren’t grey market. Would explain the ease of parts. Will have to look through some old photos.
It is different in the US. You can get a grey market machine in, but it is more a matter of how likely. I have seen a Japan made Cat 950 loader here. No dozers or excavators. In the Washington area the Kobelco are the most likely grey machines and more likely they are smaller.
Haha! Couldn't load the picture to full size... yep it is broken down. dumb question. Ah, okay that makes sense on the cat numbers now.
Good to know. Have seen deere machines running around with orange cylinders so I figured that you could.
When I rebuilt the boom on the 120 those were hitachi surplus bushings.
Nice! Now do these older machines (1990's early 2000's) have computers on them? If so, are there any year ranges to stay away from? I feel like I remember someone telling me that there was a certain year and model of cat that had issues for a short time.....
they all have some sort of ECU if they have a dial throttle, which has been standard since the early 90's. I can't comment on lemons though. I went to work in those years and it worked, or they sent me to another machine. Nothing stands out as particularly sucky, except I have no love for the 200 series old Cats. Those are out of your range anyway.
I got to say out of Cat/Deere/Hitachi, Hitachi would be my brand of choice. One of my main reasons is having an Isuzu Ive found they sip fuel and are all round a reliable engine. For land clearing/farm use I got to say a 200 is a good all round size, not to big to where there a pain to move, and not to small to where you aren't being productive. Just my 2 cents
What part of Washington, @Farm Rigging ? If you find a local machine, there is a mechanic/inspector here who has made helpful videos of how to do pre-purchase inspections, and you can also hire him if he can break loose from his schedule. @John C. is the guy for this.
I'm going to be the voice of dissent here. A 160 is half the machine a 200 is, even though the reach is close. I would not even consider a 120 for a moment if you're already asking about a 160-200. To move it a mile a couple times a year on 5 axles, that's what they make permits for.
You're not dissenting with me, that's for sure. Give me bigger iron 100 times out of 100. Trees listen to bigger iron
We work in steep country and the increased weight, undercarriage width/length make a big difference in productivity & safety for the operator. The extra length of track on the ground is significant; makes steep ground safer, easier to climb up on a pile etc. As mentioned by others; a lot more comfortable for the operator. Around here moving a 210 is pretty routine as well.
The government is so ridiculous with the rules if you have a safe place to burn them what does it matter. The stumps burn just like logs. The stupidity of people in charge... These ninnys just want to be into every aspect of our lives. I recently cleaned up some tornado damage. Lost a lot of prime old growth trees. Stumps 12' tall took me 3 fires and 2 years to finally get some of it gone. Last 2 big fires burned for 3 days straight 15 hour of machine time feeding it.
What is the weight capacity of your 45' step deck trailer? I'd be less concerned about what is legal and more about not overloading my truck/trailer, considering you're only moving it short distances locally. Moves like that are easily accomplished on a sunday morning or at night....
If it fits it ships for one low flat rate!
He is getting by now with a 6 ton machine. So whatever he is doing he is managing with that. How much bigger do you go before it becomes way over kill? A 145/160 would already be 3 times larger than he already has and he can haul it with what he owns without permits or overloading (I am assuming that). He could also rent any of the larger machines he is considering and decide for himself what best suits his needs. I don't sense that he is aware what any of these bigger machines are capable of.
Eastern washington area. Definitely! Will for sure check him out!
I'd have to check, I don't remember off hand.
I have ran a JD 490e digging a foundation in the past and it was a nice machine. Liked the 160 I ran for a couple days a lot except for the derating because of emission issues (2013 volvo) Had a 200 hitachi briefly but had undercarriage issues from day one and never really got a chance to actually use it like I wanted (tracks kept popping off even with tensioner maxed out, rails were shot along with pins) So yes, I have some experience but no, never have actually put one on a stumping or clearing job to see their full potential. I have been considering getting a lowboy but not thrilled about that idea.
As far as work-getting-done ratio goes, is going from a 160 to a 200 like going from a 4 ton to 6 ton machine? Thats what i'm gathering... you can do what a 6 ton will do with a 3-4 ton but it just takes longer and is most likely harder on the machine.
Haha! Yep, that's how we roll around here. If it can be put on the trailer, we will haul it. Not exactly a good practice but it does work.
It's hard to describe the difference. What stands out is with a bigger machine, you just casually reach over and do a thing, where with the small one, you turn, point it at the job, walk over there and do it. Once the trees are out it is quite dramatic the circle difference. Tossing piles and organizing stuff is so much easier. Tracking in general is greatly reduced.
Get the bigger machine. In my experience ( I have 4 excavators) you always want more reach, power. I've never wished for a smaller machine, except if you're just taking out the trash !
The answer to the question really depends on what your doing with it, how important is the productivity level, and mobilization of the machine . If you have a 10' stick on the 160, the reach is practically the same. The 160 is narrower so you lose some lift over the sides especially. If you can move a 210, then go that way, but I dont think you can with what you listed. I am not convinced you wouldn't be over with a 160. The 210 has more lift capacity so you can run a bigger bucket, and lift more. The question becomes if bucket size matters, given the use, I would say not. Could you handle bigger trees, pull stumps a little easier with a 210, yes you could. Does any of that productivity increase matter? How big of trees and how big of stumps do you plan on pulling? If you can legally mobilize the 160 but cant mobilize the 210 and your not doing these things everyday as in working commercially, I would say something 160 or smaller would be fine. I would rather be able to move the 160 at will without overloading the truck and trailer (or buying a different trailer) and move it legally without sh$tting a brick when you see a temp DOT scale set up while your moving it. Because at the end of the day, your not working commercially, while your time is valuable, taking a little longer does not keep food off the table. So why buy a higher rated low boy to haul a bigger machine, that at the end of the day, really isn't making you money day to day. It is simply saving you from hiring someone else.