So, yesterday it took close to 2 hours before monitor showed the DEF had warmed up. Needed to add some today. Thought about keeping the jug in the cab with me until it warmed up, but figured the warm stuff would help things thaw out sooner. I wasn't working it for more than about 20 min and there it was, DEF abnormality, 59 minutes until the next warning. Still wasn't showing warm after an hour, so then moved on to level 2. Constant beep and 59 minutes until engine derate. Ran about 10 minutes and finally the indicator showed blue, but still code. Shut it off for a few minutes, restarted, still code. Was in the process of calling the shop when it finally went away. I guess it didn't like a nice hot drink in the morning like we do. 2019 PC290-11
Was it minus 34 C like it was in Rocky Mountain House Alberta this morning. I believe the DEF gets warmed by antifreeze on most units. Was your engine running warm. My Skid Steer has cardboard on both rear side panels to get 165-170 F in this weather. 2022 John Deere 332G with up to date software. How cold out was it when it did it. Simon C
I’ve ran into problems every time a frozen DEF tank was topped off. Almost every time. More often than not. Anecdotally. No proof to back my claim. The level sensors get confused. I do recall software updates from various OEM’s trying to fix the issue.
Most DEF systems have a heating element using coolant to warm the DEF in low temperatures. The level sensors have temperatures sensors as part of the system. IME, the DEF level sensors tend to be the weak link in the system. In addition, if the DEF actually freezes (below 11 degrees F), the heating system likely does not warm the DEF quick enough to prevent warnings or de-rate.
Place I work has a handful of machines from various brands and so far no issues with derates from frozen DEF and its at least -15°C most of the winter. I honestly have not seen a whole lot of emissions issues in general on construction equipment. I think the manufacturers have got it dialed in pretty good. We recently had a PSR pulled on one of the units. Just over 30% idle time and to my knowledge it has not had any emission issues in the last 2.5 years.
I thought most DEF tanks had an electric heating element that would keep the tank warm to stop the def from freezing?
All the ones I've seen use engine coolant. Once the DEF temperature rises to a certain point the diverter valve is actuated and coolant flow bypasses the heater.
Instead of warnings or derate, they need to uplink and send the manufacturers a fine for building a system that does not function to reduce emissions as intended. Things would get better quick then.
DEF systems on trucks have a tube that runs through the DEF tank that has coolant running through it. There is a solenoid valve in the coolant supply line to that tube that is controlled by the DEF quality level temperature sensor which maintains the temperature of the DEF. There are heater wires in all the DEF lines that thaw the lines and stop the lines from freezing when operating. I believe there is also a heater in the DEF pump unit. Lots to go wrong!
Thanks for all the opinions, guys. My guy at the dealer says that the tank has an electric heater as far as he knows. Coaldust saying he's seen issues everytime a frozen tank was added to I think explains it. What I absolutely can't understand and what pisses me off, is the machine would end up derating because I added fluid to the tank. I mean, ***? You would think that they would have been able to figure THAT one out by now?
From experience, don't fill a def tank completely full in freezing temps. No room for expansion when it does freeze solid. It can break parts on the def tank when the machine/truck is not in use.
If you added DEF to the frozen DEF in the tank, you are likely confusing the DEF level sensor. The software ultimately decides there is a serious issue and down the de-rate road you go. Regulations allows you 1 hour to warm the DEF. IME, that can be marginal in some situations. To allow the DEF to thaw and not get into warnings and de-rate, the engine needs to run under a light load. But then you are wasting time and fuel. Use of a block heater or similar seems to be the best way around this situation. .
Must be something to the block heater, even though the dealer says the tank is warmed by electric. The morning it coded I had it plugged in,and it took just a bit over an hour for the icon to turn blue from gray meaning it had reached operating temp. Day before it was warmer, but it took over 2 hours to warm.
IME, the tanks are warmed by engine coolant. There is a solenoid on the engine that is turned on/off by the ECU to route warm water to the tank. Usually the DEF lines to the engine are warmed by coolant as well. It works, but the limitation is still the 1 hour regulatory limit to warm the DEF.
We have begrudgingly entered the DEF era after postponing as long as possible. I have one pickup and one excavator that use it. I was concerned about DEF freezing in containers while transporting to job sites, especially those dang (environmentally UNfriendly) jugs in the cardboard box. To my surprise, at -11f degrees, the fluid that sat in the bed of my pickup overnight was still fluid with no signs of slush or gel. I wonder if there are different grades of DEF for cold climates. Surely if there were Shimmy would have that in ND though. After reading this thread I think that we will make it a rule to try and add DEF only at the end of the day when there are hopefully no issues in the tank. Edit to add: It sure seems like we use a lot less DEF in the winter. Perhaps because the system bypasses the need for DEF until warm.
At least on Freightliner's when cold has screwed with the DEF system and codes, I remove the ground cable for 10 minutes which will clear the DEF light. But our rigs come with auto start when drivers are parked. And yes DEF warmed by coolant. We run Fargo/Grand Forks trucks don't shut down in the northern tier during winter. On a different note-Power Service 911 is only for gelled fuel, the standard Power Service in white jug is for pre-treating.
“Edit to add: It sure seems like we use a lot less DEF in the winter.Perhaps because the system bypasses the need for DEF until warm.” DEF dosing is based on horsepower. Which is measured by throttle position, RPM, exhaust temperature, and NOx before/after the catalyst. There are also calculations made that look at humidity and air inlet temperature, but those are minor considerations. If you are using less DEF in cold weather, it is probably due to cooler exhaust temperature. As long as the NOx stays in range, the system does on slightly lower exhaust temperature. IMO, filling the DEF tank at the end of the shift is best practice. You know it is full for the next day. DEF starts to freeze at 11F. I forget where it is fully frozen. I am not aware of any cold weather DEF. T spec for automotive grade is pretty cut and dried and there is no room for additives. I also know of no additive that lowers the freezing point that won’t screw with your DEF quality.
Most all the DEF tanks on our tractors hold 23 to 25 gallons, when systems operate properly it goes a long ways before refill. I can say put DEF in the wrong tank it can cost up to $13,000.00 on a DD15.
We used to buy DEF in bulk. It was ok if you pumped directly into the truck, or machine, but if you filled jugs, it seemed to crystalize in the jug. If you only used part of a jug, you get the crystals, in the left over jug. Since we started buying jugs for the machinery, there is still a bulk tank for the trucks, no issues in the warmer weather. A lot of times, if the lines don't drain back into the tank, they will freeze over night. I know lots of guys that just shut down, and kill the master switch before the purge is finished. We have had a lot of issues with the gauge showing a full tank, when it's not full, and in winter, there are multiple drivers, so not always sure if they are full or not. Any trucks that are no longer under warranty, strangely enough their DEF tanks are full of washer fluid, and are trouble free.
Washer fluid eh? (Makes mental note to self)!
Komatsu has electrically heated DEF hoses. The tank is thawed by coolant. Komatsu has had issues with first gen sensors. Check error codes against field campaigns with your dealer friend. CA3868, I believe, is the code causing most grief over the last year.
And you don't get quality errors with windshield solvent? How'd you accomplish that?
The computer recognizes this as "abnormal update rate" meaning the information changed too quickly so it thinks it's being tampered with.
Except that the software was written to appease the EPA nazis and has their blessings.
If the machine is under 3k hours, and you have the above mentioned error, you may qualify for extended emissions warranty consideration.
EPA has no jurisdiction in Canada.
I keep forgetting that the northern neighbors have some things right.
I think we're on borrowed time though.
Are they blowing smoke then when they tell me that emissions warranty is 5 years/5000 hours?
I don't know. I was told base warranty was 2yrs or 2k hrs, whichever came first. Emissions, I thought, carried another year and 1k . I'm not a warranty admin, just scuttlebutt I've been told.
Check with your dealer on emissions warranty. On highway is typically longer than off road (industrial). 5 year/5,000 hour sounds like extended, not base. DEF in diesel tank is like $40k oops on a Volvo industrial engine. Water in diesel tank is a $30k oops……
On our equipment we shut the master off each evening, after the DEF purge is complete. Just a habit, but I hadn't thought about any effects on the DEF system.
Freightliners the late ones have a shut off just inside drivers door, but that doesn't shut the whole system down mainly cab related power.
All the iron I have looked at with a DEF system has a green light above the master switch. You are supposed to wait until the light goes off before turning off the master switch.
My DEF was a little slushy this morning. Brought it inside to thaw, to get it pumped off.
Ours is orange, but yeah.
Lets just say the washer fluid level never goes down, but if some government official was to check, the tank is full of something. Perhaps I should "DELETE" what I said.
Don't add washer fluid to a functioning system. DELETE that mental note. Perhaps I should DELETE the comment. Noticed I mentioned only in trucks with no warranty. DELETE any thoughts of doing that. Delete.. that is all
Where do you find clear washer fluid?*************
Yeah I noticed on our freightshakers, the ones that still have DEF in the tanks, you can hear the purge after you switch off. I just assumed it was air doing it.
I really don't know why they even use washer fluid. I could understand if it was hooked to the sprayer, dandy big tank. As far as the equipment goes, besides a few DEF quality issues, in one of the loaders, we have had no problems. And since we stopped refilling jugs, and using part of the jugs, no quality issues. If I run my Mauldin grader to 25%, it will take a full jug. Only issues have been with the trucks, and they are slowly getting the washer fluid. But like 3406 says, it's comin eventually
“Where do you find clear washer fluid?” I’m happy to mix you up my special blend. I just won’t add any dye. Care for a drum, totes or a tanker? I’ve got some fresh 1230 and a endless supply of pristine Eklutna Lake glacier water, on tap. Happy to help.
The ************ is indicating sarcasm lol
I know, lol... a tanker load might be a stretch*** I told the marketing team to brand it with a golden color and call it something like Uncle Buck’s special blend. Package it up like a trucker bomb.
Then would need to be fermented to be a proper bomb.
It’s the way of the road, Bubs.
Ray was one of the shows creators. Blew himself up when he was living at the dump, took the insurance money, and moved to a dump in florida
Ray (Barrie Dunn) is actually a lawyer in real life I believe.
Seasons 1-5 are comedy gold.
And some people don't think Canada has any good TV shows. Children Ruin Everything that's currently on is another good show from Canada.
Corner Gas was another good one.
Sadly there are some really bad Canadian shows too generally on CBC but not always.
FUBAR, Terry and Deaner taught me how to “Give’r in the oil patch.
They filmed #2 where I used to work.