What is the point of DEF in new trucks? I know that it cleans the exhaust so it is cleaner when it leaves the truck. If people want to crack down on emissions, look at all of the New Yorkers who fly to Washington D.C. every week. One air mile produces 53.3 pounds of CO2. However, semis only produce 6.472 kg per mile. And if people want their food, water, fuel, cars, phones, garbage hauled away, and their houses built, why do they put emissions restrictions on trucks? If the government wants to restrict something, why don't they say so? I can come up with some restrictions that they could enact rather than affecting the main source of freight movement in the U.S. Why don't they put restrictions on airplanes. They produce 39.0316824 more pounds per mile that trucks. Whew! Now that I am finished with my rant, I would appreciate any input on this.
Well.... it created a huge market/profits for something that didn't have one before
Don't try reasoning with bureaucrats. We have to do as they say because it's their policy.
Because I need OT to fix that junk lol.
It lowers the oxides of nitrogen. Through a process called Selective Catalytic Reduction. Oxides of nitrogen are produced when fuel burns in a high compression environment. They are hard to get rid of, once they form. SCR/urea in the presence of a special catalyst reacts with them to convert the NOx back into nitrogen. In the past they were controlled by EGR. But the bureaucrats set the allowable limits so low that normal technology just would not do it any more so they had to resort to technology thought unthinkable a few years ago. Making people fill tanks with useless fluid. And punishing them with derates and shutdown if they should ever run out or have a malfunction in the system and not repair it within 2 miles and such.
It doesn't have anything to do with CO2, as pointed out by Birken Vogt it's to reduce Oxides of Nitrogen, namely Nitric Oxide (NO) and Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2), both are common particulate air pollutants that cause smog and acid rain. Yes, sucks that we have to use this stuff, but I find it works way better than the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) systems myself, but that's just my opinion.
I'm looking in to a NOS system kit for the 68 Ford Galaxie . Hate the extra cost but it's supposed to burn cleaner & be more environment friendly . http://www.jegs.com/i/NOS/741/02001/10002/-1
The units that have DEF/SCR generally have DPF installed, also. So you are not rid of that hassle. I have heard the newer ones are less troublesome than the original DPF only units but I have no experience to back that up.
Better than EGR too. I hate EGR and its probably the reason for all these premature engine failures. All that nasty soot going straight back into the engine. Yuck!
Don't SCR engines have EGR installed still?
EGR and/or Leaky EGR coolers... Not sure which kills an engine faster.
Oxides of nitrogen are formed at very high firing temperatures. To reduce firing temperatures they lowered compression pressures and added EGR to lower those temperatures more. That increased fuel usage and put a hit on reliability I think as well. DEF allows higher firing temperatures again which increases efficiency again and raises fuel economy. In equipment I've seen where regens are fewer and having to clean the DPF in the smaller engines is no longer needed. It allows larger engines to use passive regen in some instances. Still it all is a red herring in that methane is far more the issue with green house gasses than CO2 is. Diary farms and garbage dumps are some of the worst offenders for that gas. Maybe they need to figure out how to add something over a cow's exhaust to clean up those gasses.
That's correct-the EGR systems would soot out oil real quick oil sampling proves it. With a Def system you can run 30,000 miles fairly safely on oil changes. 15,000 to 20,000 on a straight EGR engine you could cut the oil with scissors as it drained. That's also when the variable pitch turbos came into play and EGR engine disasters like the Detroit Series 60 DDEC V came along-trying to put 48 to 51 LBS of boost in a engine designed for 30 LBS. You couldn't keep a head gasket in one. Truck Shop
Money, profits, shareholders. Our emissions with tier 3 reduced PM so much over pump/line/nozzle. The EPA with its overreaching power and legislation by mandate. I personally carry a grudge with tier IV interim and final. As mentioned above, derate and shut down for no other reason than your nozzle is plugged, your DEF quality is not pristine or you ran out. Or how bout yer $1800 NoX sensor crapped the bed. No detrimental effects to the engine, no danger posed, the gov't via EPA has mandated that you will repair or suffer to the point of stopping. This is accomplished by software programming. They have decided that you have several operators working, mid-cut, now this guy has to lay his scraper on the side for a forced regen , or to have a tech come out and drain the pee-pee tank refill it and start the whole works all over again. In the meantime your crew all stand around with their thumb up their a$$3$ on the clock costing thousands. Figure an operator , full package, $125-150 / hr. Now multiply by how many folks on job waiting on the piece of equipment to work as intended. Some mom n pops dont have the finances to recover from a chronic/ intermittent problem that the "factory/dealer mechanic" can't figure out. But hey , its ok. DEF is totally safe. Right. It corrodes everything it touches. Containers cannot be made non poisonous. Oh, and you can only handle it with plastic or a specific grade of stainless. So, all these plastic jugs and drums gotta go somewhere, right? But its ok. Nothing but sunshine and butterflies coming out your tailpipe. Oh yeah tier IV is sooo good. And a little more, if your tier IV compliant machine sells at auction to a third world or "developing" country, get this. At the port, the local dealer tech will come and delete everything for them, unrestricted/unsilenced air filtration. Unrestricted exhaust. They get a real gain of between 50 and 200 hp depending on machine and engine size. Why do we get penalized for being a developed country. Now i will quietly step down from the soapbox.
It's been around for awhile it's called a BIC lighter. Truck Shop
Just to clarify, which I didn't do a good job of, my gripe with the straight DPF systems is their need for re-gen, it's a PITA. And even with proper re-gen sooner or later you have to remove the DPF filter and have it cleaned out (money), and the catalyst eventually burns up (money), not to mention, to re-gen, hmm, I got an idea, let's dump diesel into the catalyst/DPF filter system to burn up those nasty nasties that are produced by diesel combustion. Brilliant...burn more of my fuel! Just seems to me the newer DEF systems don't have to deal with the BS of the straight DPF systems do even though they add a new layer of problems.
In the fertilizer industry DEF fluid is basically solution 32. Farmers have been using it on crops for years. Truck Shop
Any truck with def system will need repairs to the system before 300,000 miles you can't get away from it. Just a mere 3 grand. Truck Shop
DEF stands for Da Education Fund If you fix for a living
My first experience with tier IVi was with an 11 liter engine. During pre delivery, perform a service regen. Now , i had filled the fuel tank as was practice. Started the unit, got it up to temp and initiated a regen. This process took almost an hour. In that time no function could be activated, as that would cancel the regen. An hour later, the machine had consumed 11.5 gallonsof fuel without doing a lick of work. Remember when we were supposed to be saving fuel, tightening up on consumption.
This^^^. I does need to be filtered properly to use it as DEF. I have heard of people using distilled water to fool a DEF system, never tried it myself and it will not work in freezing temps.
I wish, my 2008 Cummins 8.3, not even 70K miles, replace catalyst, clean DPF filter, and for some reason have to replace all six injectors, this that and the other, next thing I know it was a $10,00.00 service bill. Good grief!
The ERG makes literally no sense to me. Passing "inert" gas though a combustion system has to reduce the thermodynamic efficiency. And then the regen cycle on the DPF also confuses me, we have to burn hotter to clean a filter? Why is it better to burn more diesel, to get "better" emissions. A remember a vibratory roller going into "regen" mode for almost an hour, sitting there running wide open doing literally nothing. I've looked all over for some engineering data to compare the MPG to emissions, but haven't been able to find any. Maybe ya'll know where it is. If all these things are really better for the environment then fine, but I'm not convinced. I'd like to see some real world data. And as far as airplane VS truck. You have too factor the weight of cargo or number of people moved. Google says the max payload of a 747-8 is 154 tons, and that 154 tons can be moving at just under the speed of sound. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with my tier zero cummins and 2 stoke Detroits.
That's what I'm talking about with the straight DPF systems funwithfuel, spot on!
Dedicated SCR engines are supposed to be the bees knees. Work hard as it can , good high compression ignition creating tons of NoX . Running hard at optimal compression you reduce pm to negligible levels. This allows you to only address the NoX. In theory, its great, on paper with the catalytic reaction layed out , its near perfect. But the EPA peed all over it with derste and shut down . If they didnt do that, i dont think it would be so bad.
They also offer a" smog pump " that's supposed to boost the air pressure in the engine to help it burn cleaner . http://www.jegs.com/i/Weiand/925/77-174FSB-1/10002/-1 I like this idea ....... It's gonna cost a little more cash but at least I'm doin my part to clean up the air . I feel better already .
We are (in the diesel world) going through what the gas guys have been suffering through since 1970. Control NoX , control unburned hc . Diesel has always led the NoX output worldwide because , by nature and design, a good running diesel produces NoX by the boatload. High compression= high combustion temps= work. Just like in the 60's we had the mopar 340. An 11.5:1 compression engine. Couple years later, we got 8:1 static compression with introduction of EGR. We had regular leaded gasoline. Lead is bad, now we get unleaded. Cant hit the octane without lead, all those powerful little gas engines died out. We had sulfur and paraffin in our fuel, now its almost non-existent. The first engines to suffer there were the little v8s with the stanadyne pumps. Couldnt survive without the lubricity provided by the sulfur and paraffins. Now, through emissions mandate, fuel pressures are reaching ever higher in effort to meet requirements. Pumps and injectors have no tolerance for impurities. We are still in the beginning stages of growing pains. It'll come around, but a lot of people are going to be financially hurt before its over.
Maybe something like that could get 2 stroke Detroits to tier V.... Wait, Wut?
When you look back 16 years we had some real solid engine platforms. Cat had the 3406E/C-15/C-16. Cummins had the N14 and early ISX. Detroit had the Series 60 12.7L and 14L. Once EGR came on scene in 2003? we started the downhill slide. I'd be curious to see how the emissions of the engines I listed above would compare to todays engines if all the emissions stuff was removed from the current engines. I mean we've had 15 or so years of development in materials, computers, injection systems, turbochargers etc.
This is why my next couple of pickups will be gassers. I do think diesels will be improved eventually,,, but 'til then, I'm sitting back with what I have and waiting.
That wha t i was referecing as tier III Electronic fuel management, unsilenced intake air, unrestricted exhaust. Great power and reliability. No sooting of the oil. Mack was the only one to my memory struggling with soot.
Pretty sure someone offers a cam kit to bring them up to tier III compliance for marine applications.
Plus, theres always propane enrichment
Small satisfaction for me, the City of Knoxville still has a number of fire trucks that sport the Detroit 8V-92. Whenever I here one responding to a call with that federal siren blaring I have to give a fist pump with a big YES!
I always thought Tiers 1 and 2 were the pre-EGR engines and that Tier 3 was when EGR was introduced. At least in the off road market it was IIRC.
On a somewhat related note, anybody know of some decent resources to learn how this stuff all works?
LOL RZ !
That is what I have been complaining about since 2002 when EGR came about, it is all a dark mystery. Back in the old days they would print theory of operation in the manuals to brag on how good their systems were. These days it is all written as if for dummies, just trust us, it works, very general information. My personal guess is it is because they keep changing it in firmware as they become aware of the screwups of their 19 year old coders and don't want the information to become obsolete. That or they want to keep it a trade secret from each other or the independent shops. It would not be half so bad if there was some give and take between the manufacturers and field people I'm sure.
I might try and take a look on SIS. Cat has SCR on most of their new stuff now. I'd imagine there'd be some useful info in there.
Stupid F__KS at EPA and I had this argument in the 70's at a MO SHP Inspector training seminar where the local EPA rep came in to 'Explain' how the devices while using more fuel decreased the bad emissions.. He was asked and ignored a few times questions as to volume, if using MORE fuel are releasing MORE emissions so are truly gaining nothing so why emit more? He was asked why if one device was ineffective or contributed to a secondary emission release that it was not removed prior to development of compensatory devices all stealing HP and engine efficiency that we knew was generating MORE emissions. He folded up his literature complained of a unfair line of questioning a "Hostile Audience" and left. Far as I know he quit the EPA not long after. If one poses those as well other lead in questions to EPA even today they fluster change the subject get angry and generally cannot or will not answer. Seems the F__KS are only in their jobs to keep their jobs as far as I am concerned.
IF we could all go back in time to a monster like this one below with a stationary cab that mechanics and owners cussed when working on them. And add a DEF system, AC, full air ride suspension, power mirrors, windows and door locks, GPS and E-logs with tons of wiring and air lines to operate the ABS system with disc brakes and an engine covered in crap all tucked inside that tiny stationary cab. Our DEF problems would seem small . Truck Shop
What I don't understand is all the regulations they put on vehicles and construction equipment but not on boilers. I could only imagine the problems I the people making the regulations had pay to have them installed on their home furnace and deal with no heat and service calls all the time. I have to believe heating oil emissions are for worse. The one school building I maintain burns 10,000 gallons a month, how many trucks is that equal to?
I believe boilers ARE being chastised as we write. The auxiliary boilers at the power stations I worked were being mandated to other controls and changes in fuels. Those wood fired boilers for floor water supply heat are now required as new installs or replacements to have catalyst reduction systems in the flue and a different burn characteristic in the fire box unlike the old heavy smoke makers. Even the wood fired furnaces are changed and require special catalyst in the flue and as such require flue cleaning more regularly as to deposits from a cold stack. All the combustion process heat systems are being addressed. Even the old fuel oil fired furnaces are now using ULS fuel as it has been deemed by EPA which causes them to burn more to make the same heat which will drive many to LP and NG supplies/conversions. As to the old horse above, I con only imagine the nightmare of those machines updated to the electronic and emissions heavy setups we have now.
University scientists needed money in order to keep a job so applied for grants to study a perceived problem. Well you can't keep receiving grants if you can't identify a problem. Pretty soon you have questionable statistics that say hundreds of thousands of people are dying because of diesel fuel soot and that has to be removed from the air. We don't want our kids to die from lung diseases, do we? So now we need more research on how to modify those engines which brings up another grant. The universities work with some manufacturers using more government grants and come up with all these add on systems to remove soot. So they removed the soot but you can't stop there because the grants would dry up. Now Nox is the problem. But what is the harm of Nox in the emissions? Don't know so we'll have to study it some more. Time for another government grant to study it. There were no restrictions on Nox in Europe or Japan until our university and grant system of funding "identified" it and they went along by changing the regulations in their countries. I don't think I seen any information about the harm of Nox. Like wise I haven't seen the information from where the statistics first came from concerning soot and just how it was derived that hundreds of thousands of people were dying from it. Maybe someone could go back to those original "studies" and compare the predictions from the sixties and seventies to the actualities of today and see just how accurate they were? Maybe I'll put in for a government grant to study that.
Supposedly already done in German and they found Nothing Significant to note. The US Univ. Labs that performed 90% of the studies were UCLA, Univ of Berkeley and Stanford so BOTH coasts are supported. They are now stating biofuels are worse as to GHG emissions, and as such are pushing All Electric machines as "release 50% of standard diesel emissions" Where the F__K they come up with those numbers is anyone's guess and probably some computer program determination. But those tend to be whatever data is input determines the output. As to carbon and deaths, they are now blaming asthma and asthmatic attacks on that and "Farm Dust" from cultivation/harvesting. Are these morons just too stupid or am I just imagining it?
It is frightening how stupid smart people can be.
Some do, some don't. We have a Tier 4 New Holland that is SCR only.
My Sis In Law is 'One of Those' people. She is so smart at 68 with a masters in education and cannot determine that money is not more than just printed as needed. She thinks that the destitute need $1000/month tax free so they can survive EXCEPT not from her money(extra taxes), just print more so they can have some. She also has issues that I have diesel equipment and break the soil for farming, but man can she devour a steak if she did not have to pay for it!! Also had issue the livestock on our place were openly pooping, "we should be containing that so the methane would not increase warming". I had to walk away. Last EPA twit I spoke with was complaining of the diesel smoke from our backup generators at the plant, said his throat tightened just coming into the yard. I asked him why and he said "well from those engine exhaust fumes from the plant of course", to which I noted the engines were off and had not been run in two weeks. He stuttered something and waddled off, I was chastised for berating our distinguished 'guest' by my supervisor who almost could not keep from laughing in front of him, almost.
My favorite by far- "...the California Air Resources Board scientist who was the lead author and project coordinator of the study justifying the air board's sweeping new efforts to limit diesel emissions, is being investigated by air board officials over allegations he lied about having a Ph.D. in statistics from the University of California at Davis." And they still went ahead and used his data for the new rules! How 'bout that new Tesla electric truck? Your tax dollars at work. When asked what it weighs & price they refused to answer- probably weighs 66,000lbs and costs $20,000,000? Put a trailer on it with NO cargo equals OOS for "egregious weight violation". But you save weight because your wallet is lighter.
Is it an option to disable the DEF system by modifying the code in the central computer?
Tampering with ,or rendering emissions devices is a felony punishable by law. Dont that feel good? Dont know how they'd enforce it. I remember getting my license and registration suspended because i didnt test. They will figure awsu.
Yeah like the decatted Harley I own or the chip I programmed for my 7.3, go to jail felony BWHAHAHA!!!! So many cars running reprogrammed PROM in the ECU or "Race" programs cams and engine uprates and the tractors and trucks that are modded each year the feds would have trouble keeping up with newbies!
Once again, how would they enforce it? Randomly send you a threatening letter saying if you don't come in for a test, they'll impound your rig and suspend your CDL?
I read somewhere that the truck tares in at 39,000 lbs. Throw a trailer on that and at US weights you might get 28,000lbs of payload on before you're overweight. Good if you're hauling **** tickets and that's about it. Plus I'm pretty sure a mega outfit like Swift would need a substation half the size of a city block to charge all those trucks at each terminal. No way a standard 220v outlet is going to charge one of those trucks to a 400 mile range in 30 minutes lol.
Get Dmiller's smart inlaw, "then why don't they make the chargers solar powered?" The main way they enforce it is by not giving out the access to the code. Not that it's that tough to make a diesel engine run, they're basically all similar air compressors with similar timing requirements. The newer ones are integrated into the drivetrain so the engine has to get along with the transmission etc. JD recently won a case that they own the software, you just own the iron. JohnC's right on the money on what's behind this. Both coasts' elites. I'm not saying that LA and the Northeast don't have pollution problems. LA has geographic issues that build up smog from it's port and highways, and the Northeast burns oil like a drunken Saudi, but listen to a Bostonian tell you how much more responsible they are because they live in a "walkable" environment and their public transportation is so great. Then they sue the midwest states to regulate power plants because THAT is what's causing their pollution.
How about we make it a job REQUIREMENT that all EPA,etc.... employees have to use 100 percent solar,wind,green,etc... power with infrastructure paid for by themselves to get to work or they don't have a job.....
Around here in the peoples republic of Illinois, particularly chicagoland , they were performing mandatory opacity tests during safety inspections. I'm sure hooking a doodad into the OBD plug would take just a moment or 2 to see if its been prommed or altered in any way electronically. A quick look see under the hood would tell the tale as well. Now thats for on highway vehicles. As for machinery, in illinois , if you want to work on gov't funded projects, you have to have a percentage of your equipment "clean diesel " I could see the c@$%suckers from EPA assigning themselves the authority to access and test at will.
At least Trump says he's gonna reign these guys in. So far this year, they haven't mandated anything local that I'm aware of. I would really like to see a rollback , let the owner opt out . For example, if you're willing to get the delete kit and pay someone for a programming, then you should be able to get the same thing the mfrs provide to the 3rd world countries. Factory deletes, factory software that works with all your other modules and mad gains in fuel economy and horsepower and the reliability associated with $#!tcanning the EGR.
6 class 8 dayshift trucks would burn close to 10,000 gallons a month . The Old Man still uses a fuel oil furnace in the home . It averages around 3 gallon a day in the winter months . He's trying to decide whether to stay fuel oil or go with LP gas ? LP is more popular for heating in our area but still a few folks running oil furnaces . I understand the fuel oil is more popular in the eastern states .
Yeah, to run the boiler all summer to keep the indirect water heater hot, but "they'll make up for all the rest in their Yugo..."
What also cuts me deep is the nitwits that buy Prius or Leaf cars then drive 90mph down the highway and have the gall to whine they are not getting the promised fuel mileage. One of my ex-bosses swore he got 26mpg on his Mercedes diesel Dodge, asked him if documenting as he was rubbing me wrong on my old 7.3 getting 17. He finally admitted not documenting so started to, his best mileage 19 as hard as he could force it to make. My old Allis products do not use large amounts of fuel, I cut out, moved, leveled and spread the 150 yards of spoil on the farm on roughly 40 gallons fuel in the 7G, my old farm tractor uses a little more than half what the neighbor's newer Deere does and they are only 15 hp different but thirty five years between. Fuel oil has or rather HAD more btu value than NG or LPG but has so lost favor in use. I know of less than a dozen in four towns still using FO Furnaces, and fewer shops using waste oil or diesel/fuel oil heaters in the bays as just maintenance heavy and dirty. I was gonna send that recommend to the Sis In Law, decided I had better crap to do than make brother's life miserable!! As I worked in the lease company in the 70's/80's I got to see those marvelous, miraculous fuel savers they are using even today. They used McDonnell aircraft's wind tunnel to test a few of them where as my Pop worked there I got front row seating. They had to bump the air speed on the models up over 150mph to get the smoke to flow where they wanted it to go as under 100 the "Brick with a hood" caused so much turbulence it would not respond at less but just spinning masses of crappy smoke trails. And we all "Know" all trucks can run 150mph for best efficiency!!! None of the air dams, scoops, braced shields, fairings or deflectors did much more than cause product capacity loss on the Pete KW even the IHC model trucks. Trailer had to be right against the tractor back wall and as noted with the Aerodyne cabs the air flows around such as differentials, brakes and transmissions suffered leading to growing heat.
Just my opinion here, The purpose of DEF fluid is when boiled it makes ammonia;Every truck would have to be placarded and all drivers would need hazmat endorsement to just use ammonia. That is what is going on in a regen cycle the ammonia is needed to clean the face of the catalyst filter and flush the amount of soot in the particulate filter Working on DD13s and DD15s with DEF/SCR systems (that by the way still have an EGR and DPF) that I had access to Detroit software for troubleshooting is both time consuming and expensive. The diagnostic program is written for a parts changer and not a mechanic basically saying if you have this voltage on pin # change this component then clear code and put back into service. For the truck that is still under warranty it is only the inconvenience to the owner and operator for down time. Fortunately the ECM stores everything and I mean everything including I can find out what time the dealer started the truck and what codes were on it and what codes they cleared (codes are not cleared they just start a new "count" cycle) so you can also get time stamp for all signals that trigger fault counts to help troubleshoot those frustrating intermittent problems. The biggest down fall of this emissions system is the electronics and wiring, just 3 or 4 ohms of resistance through a connector (Think of how many in the system 75, 100 or more) or a nicked wire in how many hundreds of feet is enough to trigger a "soft" fault that will derate engine output 25%. On newer trucks besides normal maintenance the fleet I was working on (50-60) with less than 250K I would say 50% of repairs was on the emissions and they just figure it as normal now in the industry and adjust their rates so in the end the consumer is picking up the tab. I will also recommend for the operators that put black tape over that annoying yellow check engine light and only are concerned when the red check engine light start to flash buy the extended warranty As for how well the stuff works environmental wise I suppose it does what is designed to do now whether that is the "right" thing to do; That is way over my pay grade. I do know they have a couple of old C15s that will out pull the Detroits on the same trip and burn less fuel doing it! BTW def fluid will freeze, some of the crap you hear running when you turn the key off is the DEF pump going through a purge cycle. Line heaters and tank heaters are fairly common fail items.
Ok, here is the cliff notes version of tier IV final emissions from turbo to tailpipe as i have experienced it. Now we're talking big bore here. From turbo exhaust flows into the DOC this is a palladium coated chamber similar in config to the gasser catalytic converter. Once we pass through the DOC , its into the DPF. The DPF traps PM for fun times later on. Out of the DPF we travel into a mixing chamber. In the mixing chamber DEF is injected into the stream as a fine mist. With the heated exhaust rich with NOx it undegoes a chemical reaction converting CO , NOx & HC to create H2O, N &CO2. Then the stream goes into the slip cat, this lessens the **** smell of the urea. Now back to the fun times in the DPF. When the PM in the DPF reach a saturation, it goes into regen. Whether active, forced or passive. During regeneration, your DOC heated by exhaust flow reaches a temp where light off can occur. When the DOC reaches this temp (approx 1100*) the fuel system will richen the exhaust either by 7th injector directly spraying atomized fuel on the DOC or by late injection events near the exhaust stroke end. When this fuel meets the super heated DOC it reaches even higher temps up to (1250*) this burns the trapped PM and unburned HC in the DPF. Ash takes up 5%of the space soot does. DPF should be serviced at 4-5000 hours There is no rinsing, washing or anything other than trap, burn, inject, catalyze taking place in after treatment system . Not trying to be a jag, but here are the acronyms. DPF= Diesel particulate filter. DOC=Diesel oxidizing catalyst. HC=hydrocarbon. PM=particulate matter. NOx=nitrogen oxide. N=nitrogen. H2O=water.CO2=carbon dioxide. Ok, why is DEF quality so important. The chemical reaction is dependent on the properties being "on" for complete reactions. Also, why they tell you never handle DEF with anything other than HDPE plastic or stainless . Other materials containing metals allow some of those metals to be stripped and suspended in the fluid. When injected into the mixing chamber these impurities can damage the coating, these things are ridiculously expensive. You'll know when they fail. It smells like you're carrying a catbox. I hope this helps some of you get whats going on in there.
And one of the major player emitted "Greenhouse" Gases is CO2 all this does is make more as it converts NOX and attempts to clean itself. Same argument we have had for literally decades with these morons, as NOTHING is destroyed only converted and for every gallon of fuel consumed we are making ever more emissions which they are certain we are not in their written reports. There is more than H2O, N and CO2 leaving the pipe if it smells of crap or catbox, that would be sulfur dioxide or hydrogen sulfide or other nasty not tested for materials/gases they have not yet challenged and they ARE aware of it. They removed as much sulfur as possible to counter that issue where all they did was remove lubricity and BTU value of fuels, gained little as the engines had to burn ever more. The "Science" behind limited or reduced emissions is Junk Science and all that deal with it as chemists understand that.
funwithfuel, Thanks for the cliff notes and you do not sound like a "jag" to me. I guess my use of the word "clean" was a poor choice. correct me if I have it wrong: The purpose of a regen whether it be passive, active, or forced is to reduce the level or volume of PM in the DPF normally initiated by higher exhaust back pressure.
Regen has only one purpose. Reduce the mass of soot (unburned HC) to ash. Ash takes up such a small amount of volume compared to soot. In a DPF every cubic millimeter counts. So think of your emission system as 3 parts. EGR is there to reduce NOx on the front side. Unfortunately, to do any good, it has to be cooled EGR, which leads to a whole other mess. Regen (your DOC & DPF) are there to capture & reduce the unburned fuel and particulate matter. SCR (Select Catalyst Reduction) this is where NOx is addressed and reduced to sunshine and butterflies. As much as I hate this BS , it does make sense on paper. That said, I am NOT drinking the Coolaid!!! I still have issue with a system written to shut you down because of a minor problem. They have written the programming to recognize any an all faults as "tampering" Some mfr's require you to call a foreign country for a one time authorization code to reset or clear the error codes so that you can continue troubleshooting. If that don't get it, you make another call. Phooey. EPA needs to be reigned in, and now. We also need to fully withdraw from international treaties which force America to comply with these "green" efforts
The next step in evolution , to my understanding, is no DPF. Artificially make the engine run hotter, thereby reducing the volume of PM . They're doing this by throttling intake air and controlling boost via Variable Geometry Turbos and stepper motor throttle valves. So now you're making power the old fashioned way , higher compression, hotter combustion temps better fuel management but now we're controlling air ingestion which promotes even higher exhaust temp. Now instead of promoting inefficiency to minimize NOx we are producing the heck out of it in exchange for lower HC . Then we address the NOx through the SCR system. Its a little win, The downside to all this is, longevity is reduced. Metallurgy has not and is not keeping up. Gasket material has been changed, coolants have had to improve to convey the heat away. Cavitation and erosion are still a very real problem. Which brings to mind another problem totally unrelated. Run the coolant spec'd by the mfr. Don't cocktail. Ethelyne glycol with DCA still has its place. In a first fill application, it would be my first choice. That said OAT ,HOAT, ELC, VCS and the low phosphate versions of those all have different properties. The mfr's honestly spend a ton of dough trying to figure out which coolant works best with the materials they use, not just so they can force you to buy their overpriced colored water.
You are absolutely correct. Lets make CO2 . Their reasoning is that its so much less dangerous than evil CO and NOx As far as the catbox stink , i was referring to the failing of the slip cat , which would cause it to discharge a bad ammonia stench.
Me too as to stench, cars emit the stench and a truck using fuel less efficiently(lo load) or on regen has a particular cooked turd smell. That would be any remaining sulfur compounds, hydronium radicals and the nitrogen forming the nasty gases AND acids. Pretty sad when they try to reduce one lung/pulmonary irritant only to produce a harsher type and number of.
But it looks good on paper.
I always felt that i had less to worry about with diesel exhaust than the gas . CO colorless , odorless poisonous in small amounts. Diesel exhaust, you know its there, you see it, you smell it, you wear it. When i was young and dumb , I loved the smell of an old super 290 gettin fired up on a cold winter morning.
Thanks for the overview funwithfuel. I don't get the chance to do much troubleshooting with the aftertreatment systems. Most of our stuff gets sent to auction before we see any real issues.
Then, you my friend, are one lucky mo-fo
Depends how you look at it. I'd like to get more experience with this newer stuff. Toyed a bit with EGR and DPF but its not a daily occurence. Once or twice a month I get to play with it.
I still think it pretty bad when I can dig a full foundation hole with a forty year old machine on roughly 1 1/2 tanks of fuel(75 gallon) over four days where a next door neighbor (new) had their foundation hole cut(smaller footprint) with a fella on a 953C that used three tanks of fuel in two days. Now he did spend a lot of time I wouldn't dressing up the spoil piles but still I moved twice the base soil. If one cranks in the numbers if I am burning 1/2 the fuel in my 180 and the old 7G as compared to similar HP tractors of later model, they exponentially are creating 28 times the full emissions load that I am.(14/1 optimum air/fuel ratio) so by tonnage regardless the types I am still producing LESS emissions. As to PM is not "Ash" a particulate? Do not care how small the particle it still has to be there as it is not fully destroyed just burned further.
I agree wholeheartedly , i thought the original plan was.... ready for this.... fuel conservation. Then it became more about the tailpipe emissions. Conservation was pissed out the window when i first forced regen on an 11L engine. Brand new machine 2 hours on the clock. 12 gallons in just under an hour with no work at all. No A/C , no hydraulic work, no travel no nothing. Just a 1200 rpm increased idle. 12 gallons! It seems they want us more dependent on oil. Increased consumption for "cleaner emissions " And the ash, well thats ok because it has to be handled by a special machine that "blows " the ash out of the DPF. Not to mention that DPF new outright is like 6-7k no core. And each tiime you have it serviced, the service interval is shortened. Nobody has the ability to hurt the EPA finacially but congress and the president.
And you all know DEF comes from breaking CNG into CO2 and Hydrogen to which they catalyze some of the Hydrogen to convert to Urea. So the actual increase in CO2 output is more than increased by the releases at the refiner as they only capture between 60 and 70% of the free CO2. Cousin works at one in Wood River IL.
Did not know that. Maybe itll prove to be a boondoggle like the ethanol im still forced to use
I don't know about Illinois, just know in my area there are stations that still sell 100% gasoline with no ethanol blend. That's all I use in my small lawn/garden engines, ethanol murders the carburetors on those engines
Apparently ethanol reacts to that clear vinyl fuel line too. Don't feel like chancing that on my sled when I'm up on top of a mountain. It'd be a long, cold walk back to the truck.
We haven't had 100% gas since '90 Everything with a carb, rubber fuel lines and steel gas tanks has had major work to continue operating. The farmers lobby hit us with that. Never mind it has only 2/3 the energy of gas, that its corrosive and uses more energy to produce than its worth. The illinois EPA says its better. FU@% the EPA . Now they're pushing bio diesel down our throats. I dont think anywhere sells anything better than B10 out here. More subsidies paid for with tax dollars. I know we're not supposed to get political here, but you cant ignore the elephant in the room
About a decade back maybe more, they waged war on the 2 stroke. They wanted to ban production, importation etc. The landscaping industries, loggers, lot maintenance off road utility vehicle mfr's all opposed. And they spent mad money fighting that. They won, but the money they spent to stay alive. Can you imagine lugging a 4 stroke weed eater or chain saw. Man we got way, waaa y off topic but in the end the EPA , not really our friends.
Only two states I could not find Pure Gas, KS and NB.
LoL, wheat growing states.
Well, I'd certainly add the people's republic of Illinois to that list. At least the northern region. Every pump I've come across says," this junk fuel contains up to 10% ethanol"
Thankfully, farm store near me has ethanol-free in all there pumps! (Used to just have a single pump a few years back) I’ll fill my cans for all my small engines. Darryl
For the most part looks like you're right in that area, but a search for Will County Illinois shows one station east of Shorewood that sells 100% gas. > https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
That is a very neat application. Downside, thats joliet regional airport. Controlled access. Probably cant go get a fill up. But now i see, there are resources. Thanks for the link.
Most places up here regular and mid grade are advertised as "up to 10% ethanol" and premium gas "contains no ethanol" I'm sure glad we still have 2 strokes. Nothing sounds better than a Crossfire 800 2-stroke.
I use the marine stabilizer( blue color) in all my small gas engines for years and so far has done well combating the ethanol and keeps them running smooth or as smooth as possible...lets see whats next the politicians shove down our throats to use...
Brother In Law works for the local St. Louis Transit agency METROLINK, he told me they pull the DPF units off every month, send them to a regeneration facility where they are cooked to reduce the Particulate size. The residue is then sent to a trash dump as "Clean Ash". The service company charges them $3000 to regen these things, then returns them for reuse, they are cooked at 1800 degrees for six hours using Nat Gas flames. He thinks are stupid, finds little value in them as choke up badly on in-city transit buses but keeps him in work. They also have CNG units, Cummins engines, are getting a day to a tankful that stretches from forward axle to duals and requires six hours to refill. Local trucks are starting to run CNG to get away from the Tier 4 systems and DPF, based on consumption they are only getting around 3.5mpg on CNG conversion figures from PSI to Gal. Diesel in the old days had 138,000(+/-) BTU per gallon, CNG is somewhere around 100,000.
The (nationwide) local trash company also uses almost all CNG at this point, they usually have 1 truck at the compressor at any given time during the day and all night there is a guy who drives them to and from the compressor which is not located at the yard, 4 or 5 trucks at the fill station all night long. One day the compressor broke down, they had to ship in a part from across the country, it lost them a day's work and all the schedules were turned upside down.
Jeez.... 11.5 gallons?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?
Or just wheel in to the local airport & grab some 100 octane low lead gas . It's the real stuff .
LoL, I wish, I'd love to have that for my old '85 F150 with a 300 six!
In Montana, most gas sold in cities is 10% ethanol, but there are a few locations where you can buy "non ethanol premium". Sometimes it's sold as "non oxygenated" premium or "snowmobile fuel". The pump will be marked "this fuel contains no ethanol" and it generally costs 60 cents a gallon more than regular. From what I hear, ethanol is really bad for 2 cycle engines. If this were not available, I would add PRI-G fuel stabilizer to any engines that don't burn all the fuel in 6 weeks time.
Threads like this one sure make a feller appreciate a 1985 Ford F150 with a 300 in line six . Well built dependable iron that just keeps on goin ! Truck like that is money in the bank .
The boys even race once in awhile out at the airport . LOL ! https://wannagofast.com/event/indiana-½-mile-runway-shootout/
Nice blue '69 Camaro
It was a pretty cool event willie . Drag race at the airport Without getting arrested . LOL !
What is that on the back of some of the cars?
Parachute . Has something to do with emissions .
I thought parachute, but I couldn't see how it worked. I'm thinking the parachute does more for the driver's emissions than the car's.
That would be a crap catcher when the car gets loose!! The driver will also!!
We haven't had 100% gas since '90 Everything with a carb, rubber fuel lines and steel gas tanks has had major work to continue operating. The farmers lobby hit us with that. Never mind it has only 2/3 the energy of gas, that its corrosive and uses more energy to produce than its worth. The illinois EPA says its better. FU@% the EPA . Now they're pushing bio diesel down our throats. I dont think anywhere sells anything better than B10 out here. More subsidies paid for with tax dollars. I know we're not supposed to get political here, but you cant ignore the elephant in the room ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ We get B25 out here.