1998 Detroit 60 series. Thought I had fuel line issues/ sucking air. Had one fuel line show leakage when using air pressure to test it. Went ahead and replaced all lines, drained fuel tanks and new filters. Had a little algae in one filter. Treated fuel and refilled tanks. Truck idled fine at shop. Went for a test drive bobtail, drove for 15 minutes no problems, ran great. Hooked onto lowboy trailer, total driving time now of 20 minutes or so, less than a mile from my shop, dies in the middle of the road. Acts like no fuel. One fuel filter when pulled, shows not completely full of fuel. Blew lines out on side of road with air (thinking maybe algae plugged in splitter block, no luck) took the fuel line off splitter block and put in a fuel container, still no running. Jim (my mechanic guy) thinks the ecm is bad- poured cold water on the ecm, and the truck takes off running. I got maybe another mile down the road and put in a parking lot before it died again. I had a little problem a while back with the throttle pedal, jakes would pop on and off, but if I would fiddle with the throttle pedal, they would work, so I put a new position sensor on it a week or so ago. Throws no codes when it dies. It runs like a top when you first start running. The first time it did this I was maybe 20 minutes into a equipment move, and made it to the site, then limped home (runs, misses and kind of dies, runs a little more, etc.) Both times I've tried it since working on it, it seems like it runs great until 10-20 minutes in, then dies, and you can't get it going again. I've once had a algae issue, it would plug up on a one way flow valve gradually, then kill the motor for lack of fuel. Leave it sit, then it would fire right up again, run 15 minutes then starve. That's why I tried the bucket, but it didn't really take off and run until we poured the cool water on the ecm. Then it only made it another 1/2 mile or so before dying again, so I'm not convinced that its not fuel. So in order of issues: 1: Jakes popping on and off- would fiddle with throttle pedal, then they worked, replaced throttle position sensor- seemed to fix that. 2: Leave shop loaded- 20 minutes into drive, truck falls off, then takes off, several times, manage to make it to site, unload and limp home with it occasionally dying. 3: remove fuel lines, one shows breaking down, change them all. Both fuel filters dark, and a little algae in one. New filters, all new fuel lines, test runs at shop fine 4:Bobtail runs fine, hook on lowboy, 20 minutes total run time, falls off totally. You can crank it over and it will kind of miss and die, sputter along, totally die, etc. ECM? Still fuel issues? something totally different. It runs like a freight train when I first took off tonight, seems like heat is getting to the ecm, or I'm sucking up crud/ algae and have plugged up somewhere. Where's the old little symbol with the guy banging his head against the brick wall?
Pull the valve cover and have a look at the injector harness, they're bad about breaking down. I had one with similar issues. ECM isn't out of the question though. I have one you can test with. It's in a running truck, not one I use. It's cheap enough you could buy for a spare motor ;-)
I've heard that its really rare for the detroit ecm's to be bad, that's why I guess I'm not leaning that way, but anything is possible. Man- I hate electronic motors when you've got issues like this. Mine's a 98 so I think that's ddec iv, ecm is mounted on the motor.
Mine is a 2000. The truck that gave me fits was a 99. If I remember correctly harness isn't that expensive and when I popped the cover off mine some jacka$$ has used butt splices on some of the wires in there.....
It's really hard to say... You may want to check the stand pipes going down into the tanks, some of these were just plastic tubes pressed onto the fitting and they can crack and suck air.
Splice in a clear hose after the primary fuel filter and check for air in system. Normally with the 60 Series on ECM problems two or more cylinders suddenly start to misfire and just as quick clear up. The harness for injectors and jakes can fill with oil and cause similar issues but normally it only causes one injector to misfire and continue. Check the grounds and power to ECM, on Freightliners there located in the battery box. The grounds can and will cause all types of intermittent problems. Truck Shop
I have a mate with a 60 series in a cab over KW that started displaying similar fuel like symptoms. They replaced filters etc., but eventually traced the problem to a dodgy battery cable.
Since you had Jake's acting up, as a rule , I will remove them for testing. You have to block the oil passages . I have had solenoids fail where they will will activate without voltage. It can be very difficult to find. Ask yourself when were they last overhauled? I don't disagree with the other possibilities, this is just an "also check" that I always rule out before component replacement. Good luck
Went out there this morning. Truck wouldn't start, chuggs like no fuel. Pulled fuel line and put into bucket. Crank and crank, finally fires off and runs. Idle's fine. Great- maybe its a fuel issue. Fabricobble a hose to go from filter base direct to fuel tank (love that new word I learned ). Drive back to shop. Get into shop driveway, truck dies again. Crank a couple times, truck fires up again, unhook trailer and parked it in the shop. Just to add to the confusion. As I was cranking it with the fuel line into the bucket, Jim pulled the sensor connection on the air flow sensor in the intake pipe right above the fuel pump. When he was pulling on it, is when the truck fired off. When it fired off, I was sure we had narrowed it to fuel, but when it died again at the yard, and talking about when he pulled on the wires, I'm more and more thinking electrical. Tomorrow or Saturday, I guess were going to start pulling on wires and checking connections, see if we can narrow it down. funwithfuel- I replaced 2 of the three solenoids because they weren't working/activating. I had the thought when I did the other two, that I should maybe just do the third, but that's been a couple months back. It is actually a pacbrake- not a jacobs. Thanks for all the help guys.
These type of problems can send a person in all directions. Had a thread on on here some months back about a friends International with a N14 and similar issues. He was sure it was a fuel issue and chased it for a month. I finally had time to look at it, two dealer shops gave up on it. It had many new parts installed and it was thought that those parts were all good and not the problem. I did a pin check for power to ECM -all good. Turned out it was a cam/position crank sensor that was bad. It was only a few months old. But it did act like it was starving for fuel when it acted up. Truck Shop
Modern electronics, aint they grand! I prefer the old hard mechanical engines as to simplicity to diagnose and repair. The modern age may deliver somewhat better fuel economy but I do not see these engines making a million miles as the old ones had.
The old engines were good but reality is there are way more electronic operated diesel engines with well over a million miles without an inframe. The Series 60 12.7 liter DDEC 3 and the 14 liter DDEC 4 are great engines for longevity. I know of several N14 Cummins and C-15 Cats that are over a million. And one C15 in a 2002 T800 with 900,000 miles and 36,000 Hrs on it, a grain hauler and used on two ten hr shifts an day cleaning grain piles. It will run 20 hrs a day five to six days a week all winter. It's never had the head off and still on original injectors, burns a gallon and a half of oil between changes, every 15,000 miles. And this truck pulls 105,000, Truck #6 Northwest Grain Growers. Truck Shop
Yep. Just like pickup engines... In the 70's and early 80's you were lucky to get 100K on a carbureted Chevy 350. I owned a 98 Chevy with the Vortec 350 that ran 425K without any issues until a bonehead ran it out of coolant and broke it. That engine would have NEVER gone that long without Electronics.
Having some background in electronics and computer systems let me put out an idea here. Industrial controls such as engine computers lag behind personal computers quite a few years. When DDEC and the others were being designed people were still running their Apple IIe and such computers. Now these computers were so simple they did not really have bugs. You could expect code to be almost perfect and never crash or do unintended things. Of course they did not do very much either. Engine computers seemed to be in the same boat. Not real high featured but simple and reliable code and they also seemed to be physically quite robust. Maybe also because they were simpler. And keep in mind a lot of the designers or at least the designers bosses would have been Korea, Vietnam, cold war missile command era vets who had a good idea what it was like to keep things working under battle conditions. Or people with experience in the giant industrial automation corporations, Xerox, IBM, Bell System and the like. Now fast forward to today, the war vets have all retired, the upcoming coders and supervisors have probably never operated in such arduous conditions or worked for anyone who demanded such perfection as the old behemoths. They might have experience in your upstart phone app designing companies cranking out code as fast as possible and we'll fix the bugs with patches later. Well trucking companies have been trained to accept the need for patches also so where is the motivation to get it right the first time. Plus there are zillions of extra lines of code for extra features, processors have more parts and less reliability, then throw on EGR, DPF, SCR where the hardware is just as buggy as the software and this is what you get. Argh.
Put a fuel pressure gauge in it, temporary or permanent. Easier than switching back and forth from a bucket and then wondering if that was the issue or not. If you have pressure, or no vacuum, then you know it's downstream and you have to dig into the electronics.
No faults at all? No inactive codes stored? I would do two things, 1st put a fuel pressure gauge on it and just eliminate that as a possible cause of your grief. No reason to bang your head on the wall when it's easy enough to test. 2nd, connect a scan tool if you have access to one and see if any sensors are giving strange readings when it acts up, there aren't very many things that can keep a Series 60 from running. What you said ^^^ My uncle runs a fleet of Freightliner FLD's with Series 60's and most of them are over a million miles, the M11 trucks aren't that long lived but that's not the fault of the electronics...
No computer or scan tool in my inventory, I can't see buying a $4,000 diagnostic computer for a $15,000 truck, closest computer would be dealer or independent over a hour away. If I trusted it to run right, I'd drive it in. Unfortunately, the road between here and there has quite a few spots where there is no place to get off the road if you're down, not the most fun to be trying out a truck that's got issues. The dash has a fuel pressure gauge, but it has never worked correctly- only a couple times have I seen it show pressure. I know- why have a gauge that doesn't work (pyro doesn't work either, everything else does). My old cranes have a oil pressure, voltage, and temp gauge, and I've lived with them quite a while, I suppose the fuel pressure gauge didn't seem like a priority. I did have the thought, when the issues appeared, that it would be great if the gauge worked. I've been busy out running cranes, truck has been on the back burner, but I did fire it up this afternoon when I got back to the shop, just to see if it would start. Fired right up and runs great in the shop. I'm going out tomorrow morning, with one of the other cranes. Probably get to looking at it monday. I will say this- when that 60 series runs, it pulls good and has a great set of jakes. The electronics, and possibly better tolerances on the motors, makes the pre emissions, electronic motors, some of the best life motors out there. N14, 60 series, I hear really good things about. But they are moving equipment, and nothing lasts forever. I don't use the truck every day, probably average once or twice a week, all within a hour of the shop. With my hilly country, with no shoulders on the roads, and grossing over 105,000lbs, 10' wide, when that engine sputters, your heart skips a little right with it. My opinion has always been-- a mechanical motor- if its got fuel and air- it will run. May not run right, but it will get you home, off the road, whatever. Electronic motors, it seems like when they quit, they really quit. And not only do you have the same fuel and air to check out, the electric all has to be working correctly, or it won't run. If it is showing a code, its a roll of the dice if it actually relates to why its not running. Electronic is probably not a big deal if your a big outfit/fleet and have the stuff yourself to diagnose, or in a large metropolitan area with well equipped shops. I just find it simpler on the side of the road or in my shop to diagnose mechanical diesel issues, vs electronic engine issues. Different skill set I guess.
You only need to spend about $1K for a scanner with good Series 60 coverage but I'll agree it doesn't make much sense when you only have the one truck. If you were in my neighborhood I'd come out but you're a little ways away from me...
Thanks for the offer- I'll get this figured out too. $1k for a scan tool wouldn't be a bad investment. How many times does the scan tool point out the problem? My M11 has a self diagnostic, the worst I dealt with it, it showed #5 injector issues. cummins told me do injectors, ecm, and harnesses for $6,000. I sent the ecm out for $800 to get repotted, swapped injectors hole to hole to eliminate that, and found the issue in one of the harnesses. I hate the idea of throwing parts at something until it works right. I've got the whole rainbow of motors, 60 series, M11, 6v92, 6-71, 8.3 cummins, big cam cummins, 5.9's, 7.3, perkins, chrysler industrial (gas), flathead propane, I'm a equal opportunity bad mechanic. The M11 and the 60 series are the only larger computer controlled motors I have, (dodge with a vp44 count?, or my 7.3 ford- 2001 age?). I debated quite a bit when I bought the western star with the 60 series, because I've had a few issues with my M11 and past frustrations with other electronic motors. I guess I'm dragging myself into the new age. I do have my eye on a 1995 western star with a 3406b, to replace my M11 cummins international 8100 (that I pull my roll back trailer). I figure then I could swap trucks back and forth if I have troubles, I know my 8100 isn't enough truck for my lowboy. My pirate line the other day, and the 1995 western star. I like my 1998, (except for my current issues) if I can sell my international and buy this, it would give me some other options. https://joplin.craigslist.org/cto/6171219357.html
I know these engines are the wave of the future, I left the active mechanic trade 22 years ago for power station employment. Left the original 3406E's and DDEC 92 series as the 3116 cat and 60 series Detroits came out, the N14 Cummins was just coming out. Tools were and still are expensive, I was mainly working for Independent garages and lease companies that required we had our own tooling supplying little to make the day better. Had been overloaded with expenses trying to keep up with HE, HDT, cars, pickups and then the foreign stuff arrived where I said enough. My tools sit in my own little shop, I manage to keep a dinosaur 1999 7.3 PS Ford hammering along with my old Allis tractors and a few odds and ends of tired Iron with them. Retired now so can spend a little more time and a lot less money on my projects but keep on hammering, in no way would I spend $1000 on diagnostics tools for one series of engine today. When I started in the business the 3406 and 3408 were new designs, the Small Cam Cummins a mainstay and the 92 series Detroit coming to its own. I have seen the conversion from carb and unit injectors from points and the old Prestolite electronics mess to multiple driver electronic modules feeding new engines. Been a lot of good and some really bad crap in the process. BTW My Grandmother's 55 chevy Belair made 104,000 miles on the original engine and clutch, she gave it up to a older brother in 73 where he ran it out sold to a kid that bought it to make a Rat Rod of. Rusted hulk but ran forever on points, carb, 235 straight six three on the column, no p/s no p/b and the only air from the rust holes or open windows, the car I learned to drive in.
I ran into a similar problem on a ISM Cummins, it was a intermittent break in the keyed power to the ECM. On the Cummins, it would do the same as yours does, run fine when cool then run rough when hot. It showed no codes because there was no faults in the sensors. I back probed the plug with a 12v source and it cleared up. If you want aggravating, work on a loaded mixer in town. The thought of 10 yards turning into a hard block in the drum is up there!
If you have a fuel pressure gauge then you're halfway there. Find the sender and run a temporary wire to the cab and use an ohm meter to see whether it's working, and what the range is. Or pull the sender and run a temporary line to the cab. It probably won't help, but it's easier than going back and forth, fuel, electric, fuel, electric...
I wouldn't say it ever "points out the problem" but it gives you a lot more information to find the problem and you can run tests that you can't otherwise. I wouldn't work on an electronic engine without one anymore, I used to do that and there are work arounds but it's just so frustrating to not be able to see what is going on. Rather than banging your head on the wall for hours testing things you can just plug in and see what is going on. There is a learning curve to using a scan tool and if you don't know what you're looking at it won't help you.
First one is just a scan tool. The other three look like used full diagnostic systems, do you need a subscription for each truck/ engine, or is it just plug and play? I guess if I have to give $400 to just scan, I'd rather pay $1,000 or $1,500 to really see what's going on. $1,000 won't cover a tow charge for that thing. It would be nice if it would scan cummins (M11 and n14) and detroit 60 series (all ddec to IV), cat . I own a m11 and a 60 series. May repower a crane with a 60 series in the future. Most of the big all terrains are mercedes V-8 power, don't know what they use. https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3418-Heavy-Duty-Code-Reader/dp/B001A4FKA0 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-DUTY-...184701?hash=item3619a086fd:g:~ucAAOSw2gxYyuiJ http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-CF-30...709491?hash=item2cc14e84b3:g:yWwAAOSwCkZZPL6~ http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nexiq-Pro-L...793448?hash=item36196cc7e8:g:deUAAOSw4CFYtjg9
Darn sure don't want the cheap one. I was given one and it's not worth a plug nickel. You could get more info from an electronic engine with a pair of coat hangers and a tin foil hat than that particular unit. If I was gonna do it the laptop is the way to go but I'm always slightly spooked by them from unknown sources.
That's what I haven't tried yet: coat hangers and a tin foil hat will give me just as much info as I'm getting right now- and its more in my $ range..... If I go with the laptop, it would be shop dedicated just for the engine diagnostic.
Yes keep it off other "sites" so it doesn't get the HIV!!
Of those the Pro-Link, the laptop doesn't come with the $700 Data link adapter you need to use it and the software will be expensive subscription based programs. The only downfall is that none of these will be full function on your M11... Cummins is real cagey with their software and you have to either buy it from them or spend $4k to get a tool that covers them. You'll have generic data and codes but no proprietary access or tests. I have a Nexiq Pocket IQ and have been very happy with it, they're $900 new and not horribly expensive to unlock. Our fleet ranges from New Holland farm equipment to an IH 9400 with an ISX Cummins and it talks to everything, it isn't full function on everything but it gives you a lot of information you wouldn't otherwise have and to date I haven't had to call the dealer out because I couldn't do something. In summation I would try and find a used Pro-Link or Pocket IQ with Detroit already unlocked, that'll be the most cost effective way to get a full function scan tool for what you have. Any progress on the problem child?
No progress on the problem child. I was out running crane today, and will be tomorrow too. Gave it a short look over this weekend between work: Found a loose frame ground (didn't effect running when I totally unhooked it- so I don't think that's it). Going to unhook the wiring loom at the ecm, and look at the connections there. The wiring in the rocker box all looks good, but the wire feels really odd/ stiff, maybe oil and heat breaking down the insulation? I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge hooked up/ working, and then see where I'm at. If the wiring harness isn't too expensive, I'm probably going to replace it.
Pulled off the ecm this afternoon. This truck had oil leaks all over it when I got it. We've got the oil leaking stopped, but there's still places we haven't got the crud all cleaned out from. The ecm is hidden behind the frame rail on the drivers side, no good access to clean that area. Ecm says its a rebuilt from 2014. The plug connections were all saturated with moisture/ oil. I'm sure that wan't doing it any good. Were going to try to clean that all up. Probably replace the loom from the ecm to the injectors, maybe the one from the firewall/ power also. I've got a call in to the dealer about availability and $. The third picture, and to the far left in the large wire block is the area that looked the worst with moisture/ oil, but they all were damp. all around the plug/ electrical area. The second picture left block, which is I think power in, was also really bad.
Definitely a Detroit product... Lol Can't really tell in the pictures but did oil get into the ECM connections? That can cause Problems.
Yes, two connectors had oil/ moisture all the way into the connectors, with the pins soaked. One of the big blocks with the small pins, and the other one with the square larger pins, fewer wires (which I'm assuming is power) were the worst. The oil issues were actually just maintence issues. Leaking valve covers mostly and some other lines. They had left it go so long that the engine, trans, and frame to the front diff were all covered with oil/grime. New valve cover gaskets and some lines replaced and we had the oil issues tamed, but its really hard to get that cleaned up.
I bought a handy little scanner off Amazon for $240 called FCAR, F502 and it will connect to 6 and 9 pin ports. You can read codes, delete them, and read live values. It's not a full suite diagnostic kit but handy for somebody that doesn't need the whole 9 yards for a single truck. I've used it a couple times and it comes in handy. Right now my customer base just doesn't justify anything more spendy.
Ok , I have a DDEC 3 that was giving fits like you described a few years ago. Now I'm not saying that your problem is not electronic but mine turned out to be a very mechanical one. Truck would start and idle and run well until you put a load to it then it would act like it was running out of fuel or just miss badly. No codes , and injectors passed test at a Detroit truck shop. They were thinking ECM too. Put new injector harness on thinking that was it, but no change. Finally we hooked up a clear return line, routed it through cab and went for a drive, under load getting air in fuel so back to shop and start pulling out injectors. Second one we pulled had a black streak up one side, and o rings damaged in same spot. Turns out injector cup not sealing properly and under load it was leaking combustion gas into fuel thus next injector getting air when drawing off fuel. Long story short, head off, new injector cups installed and new O-rings on all injectors. That was four years ago and has been good ever since. Mike
I still enjoy reading when the problems were hard mechanical not the electronics and the electronics failed to find the problem. Been seeing that for over twenty five years now and the techs that can figure out the mechanical issues causing problems is getting slimmer by the day. Tried to teach kids what to look for as to hard faults not code faults but they get fixated on ECMs' and sensors, may as well have been beating my head on the floor of the shop.
I took a quick look and there are a lot of smartphone apps for Cummins and Cat and Paclink for HD Trucks. I would not dismiss any of these without checking them out. I have the Torque app for OBD II for cars and pickups. It is capable of doing far more than anyone would want to do.
To paraphrase Yogi Berra. 90% of engine problems are mechanical. The other half are electronic.
I haven't really solved anything yet. It's been on the back burner. ECM is going in tomorrow to get codes pulled. We replaced wiring harness in the head (wires were really stiff, broken down), replaced the last jake solenoid, found a broken off wire connector on the solenoid of the starter (12v power wire for something, looks to have been broken for quite sometime, just touching but broken). Have fuel pressure gauge working now also. Cleaned all the connections and hooked back up. Have good fuel pressure, idled fine after replacing loom in head and fixing the other issues we found. Didn't make a 1/4 mile and it died like before, won't even idle now. Place I do business with can hook up the ecm and read codes without it being hooked to the truck, if that doesn't show us a obvious problem, the truck is going on the rollback trailer and a hour away to the truck shop. I'm done without a computer. I actually had it pushed up to the big roll back trailer and ready to load, and talked to another guy about it. He made the suggestion to just take in the ecm, and that sounds easier to me than taking in the whole truck, but we may still end up doing that.
You really want to be watching the live data on the ECM. Something may be amiss that won't throw a code, need to verify the power and grounds. You can get a nexiq usb and pocketfleet software for about $1200.
Jam some push pins into the power wires as close to the ECM as you can get and watch for fluctuating voltages.
I put 316k km on a 4.8L Vortec in a 2011. Only issue I had with that engine was some part in the throttle body failed at around 240k. $300 paid to the dealer and I was rolling in an hour. Regular oil changes every 7,500 - 9,000km and plugs/wires every 90,000km. Wasn't even so much as a weep or dusty damp spot on that engine when I traded it in. No way a carbureted 350 or 305 would do that.
Latest info. Codes read from ecm, and it showed some inactive codes and two different sensor codes. I forgot to bring home the list with me, but the guy reading it for us, suspected two sensors. The sensor that's behind the air compressor, on the back of the "geartrain" drive, and then another one below the air compressor on the side of the "geartrain" down low. We just went ahead and bought both ( I love just throwing parts at a problem, but its a hour each way to the parts house- just as well put them both in). After installing those two sensors, (I think they are cam/ timing sensors), the truck fired up and ran, but showing a active service engine light (the first time the engine light has come on) and code. Code came up as the turbo boost pressure input voltage high, which we had replaced that sensor (it's in the intake on the drivers side). Replacing that sensor hadn't changed how it ran, so we removed the new sensor and put the old one back in, and the active code disappeared. I had taken it for a little drive with the active code, but before putting the old "airflow" sensor back in. It ran, but didn't seem to have full power. I'm hoping the new airflow sensor was wrong somehow, and that the cam/ timing sensors, were the real issue. I'm hoping to take it for a drive in the morning bobtailing, then maybe hook the trailer up. I've got to do that before the traffic gets bad, then go fix the transmission on the 35. Its not wanting to hit high range, which isn't a issue in town, but its on a jobsite now, and I've got to move it again monday afternoon out of town, its slow enough as it is, I would kind of like high range.
Cam sensor is part of what determines the injection, so that's a good find
I don't have much experience with a series 60 that didn't want to stay running (they always have run!) But my understanding was the only thing that would shut them down with no CEL or code was the timing sensor. On a Caterpillar both the crank sensor and cam sensor have to be bad for them to quit, not sure if the Detroit is the same.
Another update, and I've about had it with this thing. Installed the two sensors, the one behind the air compressor and the one around the bottom. Truck ran. Went bobtailing around for a 1/2 hour or so the other day again, everything fine. Hooked up to the lowboy trailer yesterday morning- we left the shop at 5:30 to go to a jobsite, load up the rt and be on another job at 10:30. I left a little cushion, because I didn't trust it yet, and its a good thing I did. It ran fine to the jobsite with the trailer on, we loaded up the crane and its about 1 1/2 miles up out of the jobsite, and the last mile is a steep 2 lane on a busy highway. At about the top of the hill, it coughed, and my heart stopped a little. My prayer life improved a lot in the next 3 miles of narrow busy 2 lane (no shoulders), until there was a intersection I knew I could get off the road at. It made it there with a few more coughs and sputters, but it had me worried. It did not display any code. Off loaded the crane, called my buddy with his lowboy to continue the haul (was only 2 hours late for my job). Called the wrecker and hauled it to the dealer a hour away. I gave up. They called this afternoon and said they found the problem- harness from trs to ecm. I don't know if they're right, but if they are, I'll dance a little jig; if they aren't, my mechanic and I are having bonfire discussions. I will admit that when I brought the international over to rescue the trailer, I thought about loading the crane up and giving it a go with it. It's only a m11, and a super 10, but there's one bad hill in there. I've had it with a little over 80,000, and that was all it wanted, so I don't think 105,000 would be a good idea, but I did think about it. If there wasn't that one real bad hill, just flat ground, I would have given it a go.
Just a healthy exercise of the legs double clutching and trying to mash the throttle thru the floor!! It would only hurt a little while!
I've pulled 95k up a pretty good hill with an L10. If that M11 couldn't get up the hill (eventually, LOL) there must be something wrong with it.
I could probably pull it up it, its just that there's a stoplight just before the top, and if you have to stop, I don't think you'd get back going again. There's also a ton of traffic etc, and no where else to go. If it was in the middle of nowhere, I'd go for it. A crane outfit that helps me out sometimes, spun out their gmk110 on it- they had a mess getting everyone out of the way to get going again. Cops, firemen, boom dolly and counterweight load, and no one gets out of the way. I'm not doing that if I don't have to. I've actually been shopping for a truck to replace the international, if I'm going to have two trucks, they just as well be interchangeable. I'm going to look at a old ford ltl9000 with a 3406b maybe this weekend. If I can buy it right, I'll just sell the international, put the ford on my rollback and the western star on the lowboy, and I could swap back and forth. It worries me because in a lot of my area if I do break down with the lowboy, you can't tow it from where its at loaded, if I have my own second truck, I could use its hydraulics to get the dead truck out from under, and get the load rolling again. I'm mostly within 45 minutes of the shop.
There are times when low, is not nearly..... Nearly..... Nearly..... Loooooowwwwww..... Enuff!
Might look to a Freightliner or KW even a bigger IH as parts availability of the Ford line is getting tough.
Our guys pull a B-train (80-95K) over the mountain pass with an M11 powered 8100 sometimes, I wouldn't do it but they say it's fine, lol...
I have moved way too big with not near enough motor or gear. When it works, it works. When it doesn't **** goes downhill fast....figuratively and literally!! It is a challenge to set a truck up for that kind of weight in those hills and do it on a budget. The little motor would do it with some steep gears.....just not very fast and being that short wouldn't be much fun either. What came of the Star Car we both looked at?
Star car is gone. I probably should have bought it, but it seemed to me, just to be a little too light. Engine was only 350, really wanted a 13 or ideally a 15 speed trans. , and the suspension was light too. By the time I upgraded everything, and added tires and two line wet kit, the numbers just didn't work. It was a really clean truck though- no rust at all. Looked at this Friday. 1989 ford, 3406 with a 8ll. 425 hp, looks like 40- 46,000 rears (six spoke dayton?), 4.10 rears, neway air ride. only 380,000 miles. Was a short run delivery, then farmer owned grain hauler. Big single frame. Has a single line wet kit, and no jakes. Could use a couple tires, and a headache rack. It's transmission was real loose. It was funny, I asked him whether it was a 15 speed or 8ll (you could see the blue button in a picture before I went). He said "I think its like a 10 speed, I don't know what that blue button does, we never use it". I know there's no support for Ford anymore, but what would you need from a dealer, for a truck that age? If it was a kenworth/peterbilt/ freightliner of that age, you're getting parts from a junkyard too, dealers either don't have them or they're too expensive. Door or a hood, or even a motor mount, the rest is pretty generic truck stuff, no matter who made it. Budd's, Dayton's, rockwell, eaton, cat, cummins.
I have a set of jakes for a 3406B. Also contemplating parting out a truck that has an 18 speed in it. Truck doesn't look too bad though. You're right, any major parts are readily available. A few odd interior pieces or hood but that's what the salvage is for. I love Neway air ride. I also have a 4th axle and a long 5th wheel slide should you ever decide you need it.....
Thanks, he's wanting $12,500, which is quite a bit, I got my western star for $13,500, with good tires and a new reman 13sp. I had to put on headache rack and wet kit, and have spent some time working on it, and it is a million plus mile truck. This is a really tight truck. Instead of bringing it home, I spent the rest of Friday and Saturday staring at the rear end of a dog, but I'll put that up in the crane section.
That is a sharp looking truck. Is it a PEEC engine?? If so, that truck is worth that for the shape it's in.
3406b model, all mechanical. Aren't most of the PEEC engines gone? I thought their electronics were pretty much unrepairable- cost wise, and most people pulled the pump and put a B series pump back on. I probably should have bought that ford, instead of the mack with a crane on it. I'm thinking the mack is going to be a lot more work. Ford is a repaint with pretty red paint, but its still a pretty solid old truck. Its little things that make you wonder though, like they put just new brake shoes on the back tandem, and not the front tandem with it, and didn't replace the drum, which has a pretty deep groove in it. And the not knowing what the deep reduction is in the transmission. They had no idea what the rear ratio's might be when I called them. I found the tag when I got there. If I can sell my international for $8-10,000 (some farmer to deliver hay?), and get this for $12,000, I should probably do that.......
I guess I don't know, I do not run Cats, and really have never heard a lot of complaints about PEEC. Most guys were happy to have cruise that actually worked. As for the brakes, there are more than a few legitimate possibilities for braking only one axle. If it doesn't have spring brakes on both axles, a hired hand driving it 10 miles with the brakes on would be reason for changing one axle at a time. Another possibility is if it has automatic slack adjustors, and springs on one axle, the spring brake axle will likely stay adjusted tighter than the non-spring causing those shoes to wear out first. And then there's also the guy that likes to only replace brakes on one axle at a time.
I'd be interested in the 18 speed if you want to sell it. I'm about an hour away from Claremore.
8LL is a hell of a gear box, can get low enough to drag almost anything and still hit OD in high. 13's were OK, soft spot the synchronizer clutches if pre-selected too early. 15's were an overgrown version of the LL shift selector on the dash or blue switch on shift knob in later designs. Want to get all nasty get a Spicer air shift 4x4 or 5x4 marriage box, those would give you almost any range you could imagine.
Or an 18 with a 4...... had two trucks that way. Loved them. Stupid low hole and a nice lope down the highway at 70-75 gear as well. 8LL is nice until you get rolling then the gears get a little far apart ratio wise, same for a 15. 13's don't hold up to abuse as well. I will say I've never had a major failure from an 18 but they seem to get noisy, loose and somewhat finicky shifting after a couple hundred thousand hard miles.
When Eaton came out with the high torque series transmissions in 94 they were designed to be pre-selected. The weak spot for both 13 and 18spd is the rear main shaft support bearing. As far as the rear section both are pretty tough. And if it's a later Halo oiling system those seem to last a good while longer. The best thing Eaton did was go to the no burn blocking washers on the main shaft. The reason most remans don't last is poor inspection of parts on a rebuild. But if you have to replace the front three gear sets in the front section you may as well get another gear box. The 8LL is good for short distance running but not much of a road box. The best set up for twin is 9X4 or 10X4 IMO. Truck Shop
Well I don't think I'm going to be able to get the old ford. the Mack with the mounted boom truck is going to take a little more work than I thought, so swapping trucks is going on the back burner for now. In other news, it does seem like the western star is fixed. i made a short run all loaded up, late last week, and everything seemed to work. Bill at the dealer was $560, about $40 for parts, environmental charge, etc., the rest was labor, so he spent a little while looking for it too. We will see I guess. Thanks for everyone's help. Tow bill was under $400, the wrecker man and I throw some work each other's way, so I think he gave me a pretty decent deal. It's probably 40 minutes from his shop to where the truck was, then over a hour to springfield, then a hour back home for him, plus his time hooking up and unhooking. I needed someones fancy new underlift kenworth.