Deutz engine in a small Dynapac compactor CA 12. From reading, I figured if the cooling fan belt broke, there would be some Dilemma. Machine has been stored for a while (thank you Economy!), checked the usual and evicted spiders etc. Started up right away. Belt inspected - looked good and no cracks. Been running well and best helper was using it for a couple hours with no vib to level some mounds when it suddenly stopped. He of course didn't see the gauge and was quite surprised. The belt jumped off the pulley(s) but wasn't broken. It was able to be restarted w/i an half hour or so and they forced cooled it by misting the oil cooler on the back. Yes they didn't realize that was for the hydraulic system .... which had no real heat since no vibration used. For this post, other than analyzing (to no good end) the 'mechanics' of their thought process ..... a couple Deutz questions: Given the belt tensioner electrical switch gizmo affected nothing (bulb wire found w bad connection) and the sudden shutoff was likely a seizure and the next day miraculously the motor sounds fine, is it possible the motor could endure the seize and somehow not be mortally damaged? Does it help in such a situation the motor is well worn in? Am planning on changing the oil although it doesn't smell burnt. Got the tensioner 'position switch' working w a new bulb and some wiring repairs. Also noticed the old belt [which is v diff to see when installed], had actually worn to a somewhat chisel shape and must have rode a bit down in the pulleys whereas the new belt is riding higher; the spring tensioner is wound tighter and belt tension is higher since it had to stroke further. The simplicity and reliability of the mechanical fuel system is less desired when a simple electrical solenoid could have terminated the fuel supply. I dreamed up the possibility some form of a mechanical thermal operation could have been built into the Bosch fuel injection pump unit and held the mechanical low pressure pump lever off the cam .... but no such feature that I can find. Thus seizure concluded for the sudden shutdown.
There may be some scuffing of the cylinder walls but if it starts fine then run it until it drops. I once drove a dodge gas 318 so far, so hot, in order to make it to a rest area in a more or less desert area, I pulled in at about ten miles per hour with the throttle flat on the floor. When I lifted she seized. Took a nap under a shade tree until it cooled to ambient, refilled it with water and drove on. Couple months later a new radiator and one head gasket had been replaced. Couple years after that a gal in a Ford pickup totaled it from behind, engine was still running strong.
Yair . . . Air cooled engines by Deutz and Lister are probably the most reliable small power units ever built and will take an inordinate amount of abuse and overheating . . . dust collecting on oil leaks and clogging up fins can be a major culprit. From memory I thought some belt drive versions had a simple trip mechanism built into the belt tensioner that triggered a shut down if a belt broke . . . I believe it had to be set and latched Cheers.
The deutz engines are tough as nails. Specialy the small 1-3 cilinder engines are sometimes almost the same since WWII. The smaller deutz engines do have a trip mechanism just like Scrub Puller explained. Overheating one of these Deutz engines is hard, since they have lot of cooling capacity. Even if they seize up do to overheat just let it cool down and your good to go. Just run it until it goes dead. Parts are simple and cheap. Cheers
Thanks for the encouraging words about the toughness of this motor. It sure is handy to have the compactor w/o the rental bill for these jobs where the machine is not used all day. The end of the engine (the cover) has the spring loaded arm with the belt idler pulley, there is a plunger switch that changes position when the arm moves if the belt flies off or breaks. On this machine, the switch operates a lamp. The space is so tight it is hard to cycle the switch for a lamp test. I am going to change the circuit so the switch runs a 'permissive' light and if that light goes out, shut down the machine. Yes that could just be a bulb or could be the belt, but either event will be conservative action. fyi The switch has two contacts and a common > NO and NC. When the switch is free and sprung that is also the tensioner in the loose position: the light will be wired to the NO position. That contact will be closed when the belt is tight thus the "permissive to run" light will be on. We know the machine runs with the belt off (and tensioner sprung free) 'cause we drove it out to the work area at an idle. And we can see the light failed to activate when the tensioner shifted position. Since this tensioner only runs a lamp, the only other actual shutdown is the (a) seize or (b) the possibility of a thermally operated trip contrivance inside the fuel injector pump which coincidentally also operates the low pressure mechanical diaphragm pump that brings the fuel from the tank to the injection pump. Said "guess it could work this way" internal let's call it a thermal actuator similar to the thermostat on a car (if it existed) could expand with heat from the hot oil splashed there from the gear drive and lift or hold the pump arm in one position off the cam lobe and the lack of motion on the pump arm would shut off the fuel. Interestingly the itemized diagram of the oil system shows and calls out the oil being directed to the fuel injection pump. No words about what occurs inside the Bosch pump. In another section there are words about the belt tensioner indicating warning light requiring operator action to shut the engine down but absolutely no words about an auto shutdown. Similarly, this concept of a warning or idiot light is the same as my 1964 36hp VW beetle - if the generator idiot light came on, that could be the belt broke and since the generator shaft ran the fan, one best shut'erdown. The belt replacement takes the better part of the day on this machine. Have to remove copious fasteners and loosen the rear housing and then remove these little blind 1/4 inch fasteners from the duct shroud halves then if somehow possible loosen the exhaust pipe stack or flange but if you cant then try and swing the rear housing....but we inadvertently cracked the thin rusted pipe from the muffler so we ended up gas welding it back together....tick tock not an hour job in any way even if that exhaust pipe removes nicely. The thought of the engine seized brings images of pinched rings and big grooves in the piston face. Yuk.
The one I have is a electric shutoff solenoid it wouldn't be to hard to have the belt sensor trip that off or instead of a light maybe need a loud buzzer or siren Something I will have to look at as ours is on a pump that is left unattended
I would think you could find an inline solenoid fuel shutoff, though I've not looked, and it would be easy to wire that to the tensioner switch
If it runs just run it. 2 stroke dirt bike engines have been known to dry seize and free up after cooling down.
For now: rewired switch to run the "permissive light". *Also changed oil due to being overheated. ~~ For later (after this job): About $80 12 Volt 3/8" Inlet/Outlet RV and Marine Fuel Shut Off Valve 12 Volt optimal (6 VDC to 15 VDC) Coil resistance 10 ohms. Current draw 1.0 amps max. Rated working pressure 312 PSI. 2 way normally closed inline solenoid. Rated for fuel, LP gas, natural gas, air and other media. OEM approved or 3/8" female with pipe thread inlet, and 3/8" female with pipe thread outlet. Ambient temp rating -40°F to +170°F or 170°F Fluid. 100,000 cycle tested. Extensive test data available. All construction, corrosion resistant - solid brass, plated steel, or anodized aluminum. 100% tested for low/high pressure leaks. Thank you Mitch504 - this is exactly the solution I was thinkin.. found that one at a place named Dan-Marc. Could be a nice idea to keep a tractor from walkin off...unless the fuel system is obvious & simple to bypass. Could add a rf operated relay then run the on/off with the cell phone... Sorry to segway my own thread!
I think you may find a temperature sensor screwed into one of the cylinder heads as well. From memory, if you look inside the door it is in the rear head and screws in horizontally. I may be wrong though, I haven't been in one of these for about 25 years.
There indeed is a temp sensor and the temp gauge was admittedly hard to see as we are running the machine inside a warehouse - that is another story and it is posted on this forum in the "demolition section" about a warehouse floor replacement .... the belt trip was supposed to activate a warning light which was not working and yes there is no lamp check and no way to cycle the switch to pre-op check. Now that I rewired it, light burns all the time unless the tensioner moves to the free spot. Yes the temp gauge still works too, we may need to place a magnetic led light so he can see it better. This entire event makes me wonder about operating equipment on night jobs - brings on a whole new set of issues due to the poor vision conditions. ~ The oil & filter has been changed and it has been run for a half hour with no load at fast idle, cooled down and then run again for a half hour at full speed also with no load. Old oil will be sample analyzed. Today we are working and it is set to be load tested. Seized or whatever, it seems to live so let er run . There is no smoking nor knocking, it is the same near as I can determine. ~ Added some pics of the confines of the tensioner position switch (see the black cable is all), the fan drive belt, and the tensioner idler pulley and the arrangement of the filters & filter housings and also shows the fuel pump mounted right there on the Bosch fuel injector housing which btw has a lube oil feed line going directly to it externally routed but not so visible in these pics. I cling to the hope there is an auto shutdown in that unit simply because it seems horrid to think about the pistons scrubbing away at the liners until the fit is so tight it can no longer move.....yikes. The Deutz maintenance manual describes no such 'autoshutdown thing' (and really doesnt have much of any "description section") but that manual is entirely devoid of any Bosch fuel injection pump features let alone details other than how to set the timing in relation to the engine etc. I put a pic of the unit nameplate maybe if a injection pump guru or deutz wizard may know if there is a thermal motion gizmo which could raise the arm of the pump and then preclude following the cam (no motion) and therefore stop the fuel flow...
The inj. pump is a SLAVE to the electronics.. Do you HAVE TO push a button BEFORE you turn the key/ button to start.?? IF YES.. there is a "shut-down" system on your engine.. oil pressure, hi temp, rpms. and belt tension.. Hence the wire on the tensioner.. The pump is BASIC.. no shut down on the pump.. that I can see.. normally the s-d is on the fuel in/out and cuts the fuel supply off.. OR could be in the electrical system and pulls the shut down lever off.. on the other side of the inj. pump.. Personally// I would get rid of the "heater hose" for the fuel line..!!! and get the correct line.. Heater hose will collapse in a quick minute.!!!
Yair . . . Murphy gauges not withstanding, in the olden days safety shutoffs were often simple, inexpensive, and involved the fuel pump control being actuated to "off" by a powerful spring that was latched to a solenoid to run . . .inputs from over temp, low oil pressure and maybe, on irrigation pumps, loss of prime sensors fired the solenoid which allowed the spring to shut down the engine. As mentioned by thepumpguysc an override of some type was needed until the engine built oil pressure. Speaking as a dinosaur I am amused by some of the elaborate electronic doodads with sensors and solenoids that have evolved to (say) shut down a diesel engine when a tank is full . . . I have even seen a crank start Lister pump jack setup equipped with a solar panel and battery to run the shut down. We used to run a bit of flexible clothes line wire out to a bucket on the overflow . . . tank fills up and overflows, fills bucket, weight of water stops engine. Small hole in bottom of bucket allows water to drain out ready for next start. Cheers.
This machine doesn't require much to start it. Make sure the stop lever is in by pushing in the tee handle on the cable to the injection pump. Activate the starter. To shutdown, one must pull the tee handle on the stop lever. If running, one may remove the battery, no solenoid to shut it down.... I am familiar with the button and the murcal murphy switch....this is why I focus my thoughts on if there is "anything", it isnt electrical but maybe maybe it could be mechanical such as I have described above. We traced the wire from the switch to an idiot light; when the switch tripped the light would turn on. Said bulb had dirt on contacts and didnt lite. Now that we cleaned them, it works. There is no Lamp Check while starting the rig. It is rewired to keep the lite on: I flipped the wire from NO to NC while tension is on the belt.
The old oil was sampled and sent to the test lab with a brief note about the hours on the oil less than 100 and the machine sat for quite some time 5 years or so (Thanks, Economy!) and was recently run a couple times then overheated w a "shutdown / seized" ... The lab report says / results: Monitor Compartment. Unknown hours on the oil. Silicon and Aluminum are elevated and may indicate dirt entry. Chrome is elevated and may indicate bearing wear. All other analysis reasons appear normal. More sample history needed to establish a normal wear trend. Cut open filter(s) and inspect for debris. Resample in 250 hours to monitor. It has been running quite fine. Bullet dodged. Still think that FI pump has an internal mechanism (purely mechanical) to shut it down but regardless we know the belt HAS to be replaced regularly to keep it in top condition and of course diligently watched (aka warning and or permissive lighting and temperature gage). May wire an electrical shutdown w fuel shutoff solenoid valve after we are off this job.
You have to decide if it was seized or shut down two very different things if the fuel pump shut it down (not likely) it would still crank over If it was seized then it couldn't crank or be barred over
Yes this is the key question; but I wasn't there. The operator reported (as did helper) the engine shut down fairly quickly but not necessarily with excessive suddenness. It was operating in drive with the vibrator on, thus the hydraulic load was notable. They determined by inspection and observation it was hot (odors) and as well the temp gage was then utilized, and they didn't try the starter motor. Not possible to try the bar over / crank pulley as it is completely hidden. After about a half hour to 45 minutes with the engine hatches open. they tried the starter 'to see' LOL and the engine started to their great relief. They had previously noticed the belt was off so they shut it off once they knew it still ran, then they called me. When I install that fuel line solenoid valve and replace the fuel hoses, maybe I will remove the [lift low pressure] pump and look inside the housing to see if there is a contrivance that holds the arm off the cam...or sim...hmmm.
Sounds like to me that at least part of the problem is different people use totally different words to describe the same thing or the same words to describe totally different things! One example is that if I hear someone say an engine "Won't Crank" I take that to mean it won't turn, crankshaft does not move. Don't know how many times I have had someone say that to me to only after I get there to find out what they are saying is the engine turns over just fine but fails to run. They are using the word crank and run interchangeably. I'm thinking here the term "seized" maybe being used where a better term might be "stalled" or "shut down". Without knowing for sure which really happened if you do get it running again I would be pulling and cutting open the oil filter and checking for metal in there. If it looks fine in there I would make sure all gauges, lights and emergency shut down systems are working. Then I would have a good talk with anyone who will be running this equipment to let them know what is what. Someone ignoring a gauge or warning light could be the difference between you getting the job done and being able to pay their wages at the end of the week. Not a threat but simple statement of fact!
I didn't think the original poster was at all sure it seized, just kind of a worst case scenario type thing. Or maybe the only explanation he could come up with. But don't you hate it when people talk about not cranking when it's cranking just fine. You'd think they'd never cranked an engine in their lives, with a CRANK that is. And don't get me started on "I went out and FIRED it up but it wouldn't crank/turn over, just go rrRRrrRRRrrrRRR?????????" Well, I suppose if it was a Stanley Steamer it could have "fired up" and not cranked...
Delmer and khansen +2! I hate it when someone parrots some clever sounding expression or turn of phrase that that he heard, without any thought about what the words mean. I had a guy call me and say "I have a no-start. There's smoke but no fire." After a few hours of him battery charging and ether-ing, I drove over to have a look. The diesel engine cranked over just fine, and there was *no smoke* of any kind. No fuel of any kind was being introduced into the engine. No fuel was in the fuel system... To the original poster, it does not sound like the engine seized (the oil analysis is nothing abnormal) . For what ever reason, it stopped. Maintain it and run it.