I have an old Case 360 trencher/hoe with a Deutz F2L511. just stopped running. I tried to clean the screen on the lift pump, but I couldn't get the cap completely off because of clearance. it's like the cap was stuck to the screen. I dumped the fuel filter and it looked clean. Only when I press the Fuel Primer Button on the injector pump(I guess that is what it is), the engine will start and run for a few seconds. I've looked for a fuel solenoid, but they've really got this engine shoe-horned in and can't seem to see it. where is it?? are there any other fuel shutoff mechanisms I need to be aware of? thanks for your help.
If I remember correctly, inside the air box is a shut off solenoid that actuates the lever. It should have a 3 wire pigtail. One is ground, one key hot and other gets hot when you crank the starter. Good luck.
funwithfuel, i checked the airbox. didn't see anything electrical. now I'm wondering if it even has an electrical solenoid. on the instrument panel, you are able to shut the fuel off with the throttle control by pushing it all the way in. maybe i have worse problems.
Then I would follow the cable to the engine and see what it acts on. Deutz are very simple and very reliable. Let us know you find
the cable goes to a lever that is mounted on the housing that the injection pump is in. nothing else. looks like it just controls the injection pump.
Look at the bottom of the lever, it looks as though that link takes you back to a solenoid.
Its possible that that throttle IS the shut down.. U go past low idle to shut it down.. U see that large hex nut below the inj. pump.?? THATS WERE an electric solenoid would screw into.. The tiny little lift pumps DO go out on them..
thepumpguysc, that makes sense that. I will go to back to basics and check fuel flow, making sure the lift pump works and also that there is no air getting in the fuel.
i went back and checked the lift pump. I took the lift pump out to disassemble it and make sure the bowl was clean and the diaphragm good. I reassembled it and checked for fuel getting to the injection pump. the lift pump seems to be pumping fuel ok. i put the end of the line in a jar of fuel to check for air pumping thru the line (there was none). So, I am back at the original problem of it will only start if I press the fuel prime button next to the injection pump, and then it will only run for a second or two. I started it with more throttle and it ran higher rpm (of course) and a few seconds longer. How would you proceed from here?
The fuel line right beside the 2 pumps, is that return, if it is remove that banjo screw and tell us what you see. It looks like an overflow valve. If that ballot plunger is not seating and maintaining some pressure, she's not gonna run.
funwithfuel, that fuel line is the supply line
U do know that banjo bolt has a bleeder screw in the center of it don’t u.?? Loosen the bleeder screw 8mm & crank the engine with the throttle wide open & check for air..
So did we determine that it has NO ELECTRIC SHUT OFF SOLENOID.?? Anywhere.?? I’ve seen them tied into or made into a banjo bolt.. but it’s pretty obvious with the electric wires going to it.. & I don’t see anything like that in your picture..
If u follow the line from the fuel tank, what’s the set-up.?? Does it go, fuel tank, filter, supply pump or supply pump, filter then injection pump.??
fuel supply goes tank, lift pump, filter, then injection pump. answers to the other questions above are, yes, I've bleed the fuel line at the banjo bolt at injection pump. and no, i can not find a fuel solenoid anywhere. I noticed in the Deutz 511W Operation Manual there is a note that a solenoid valve is "not mounted on all engine versions". FYI, I just put a new fuel filter on it to rule it out, as I don't mind spending money on maintenance items. the only way the engine will start is by pressing the fuel primer button and then it will only run briefly. what does that button do behind the curtains that allows the engine to run a few seconds. it seems like without pressing it in, it won't fire off. wish i had a injection pump tester.
Does it actually SAY primer on it.. I THINK u found the problem.. it might be the lock-out for the safety switches..?? U HOLD that button down until u have/ it reads OIL PRESSURE then let it go.!!! Move the throttle OFF OF low idle.. PUSH & HOLD the button DOWN, release the button after LOOKING AT the oil pressure gauge..
one other note, in the Operation Manual it shows the solenoid valve would be where the banjo bolt connects to the injection pump. there is no valve there on mine. the banjo bolts directly on the injection pump.
I dont know why I didnt catch that earlier.?? Try posting a pic of the dash w/ that button.
As w/ most manual pictures, they have 5 & 6 swapped. See Post # 8..
the button I'm referring to is on the injection pump housing. My Case 360 Operators Manual refers to it as the fuel primer button. it is on the housing just above where you said the solenoid valve would be. it is #2 in the this picture:
it is also referred to as "starting fuel allowance button" in the Deutz Operation manual
Have u taken the 2 lines off the pump to SEE what the he!!'s going on.?? It wont hurt a thing, just hold the holders w/ a wrench while loosening up the lines..{double wrench method} Then, move the throttle to HI & crank'r over & WATCH the squirts.. THEN move that lever/button & watch the squirts.. Have u gotten a pail or bucket & actually checked the FLOW from the tank.. let it run into a bucket to SEE if theres any obstruction. Let it run for SEVERAL MINUTES..?? BTW> never in my life, have I ran into a lever or button on or by the inj. pump that needed pressing.
I'll remove the injector lines and see what happens. In the meantime, here is a better picture of that button. It is not a normal part of the start process or they would have it on the dash. You have to remove the side panel to access it.
What??? Simms/Minimec pumps have a cold start button like that. It's INSIDE the pivot of the shut off lever, so easy to overlook. Does that button stick in a lower position the first time you start it after it's run? and pop back out when the engine starts? Some of the early Bosch rotary pumps (DBA?) had some funny cold start position like pull the shut off back all the way to start, I haven't figured that one out, just read something crazy like that. That button makes perfect sense as a cold start device (fuel allowance...). It shouldn't be needed in ordinary starting. And I have no idea how it could be connected to your engine dying, aside from the obvious, more fuel better.
yes Delmer, you push it in and somehow adds fuel. when engine starts it pops back out. I don't think it is connected to why the engine is dying, but it is connected to why it runs for a few seconds. the pump is a Bosch PFR. here's the plate:
I would love to pull that pump, just to see what the he!! It operates.!!?? I’ve never ever have seen that type of gizmo..lol
U might end up pulling it anyway.. Just to see if the control rack is free, back & forth.. I’d remove the lines from the pump first.. just to see if the pump is actually pumping without pushing down the button..
I feel like I 'm on an episode of the Mystery of Oak Island. The more I learn the more questions I have. I took an injector line off and cranked it. Only a few low pressure drops of fuel came out. I've never worked on a diesel before other than changing fuel filters so I've been trying to educate myself. My understanding is that the governor controls the fuel supply and that on these engines the governor is the speed control system and it can be either constant speed or have a torque sensing mechanism. From operating it, I'm thinking constant speed, but not positive of that. Also, it would seem like the fuel allowance button is probably tied into the governor. I haven't taken the pump out yet and checked the control rack. At this point it, it seems to me that I could have a problem with the Injection Pump, the governor, the control rack or something else. Does anyone have more thoughts or guidance on this?
There's no such thing as a torque sensing mechanism in this context, that would be a governor style that is more like a throttle on a gas engine, less governoring action, more speeding up with less load and slowing down with more load. You have a traditional diesel governor, so forget about that stuff. The only speed control is the amount of fuel, so that button adds more fuel (possibly adjusts timing for better starting, but doesn't sound like it in this case). Yes, it will be tied into the governor linkage somehow, because that is the only output of the gov, more fuel or less fuel. Possibly no timing advance on this, ignore that I ever mentioned that. So starting with the basics, 1) there is NO electric control of this injection pump? does it turn off with a key? or with a cable that you pull? or the throttle pushed to a certain position? And there are NO electric wires connected to the injection pump or anything connected to it? 2) fuel supply to this pump, put a tee into that supply line and a pressure/vacuum gauge where you can see it. Use the primer pump to see what pressure you can obtain. Then try to start it and see what the pressure does when it cranks, starts, and dies. The pressure should bleed down after it's died, but not at the same time it's dying. 3) take both injector lines off at the pump, and see if they are both moving an equal amount of fuel. It would be unusual for many of these things to fail on a running engine without badly contaminated fuel, eliminate as much as possible before taking it apart. It looks like that governor housing is part of the front cover of the engine? I wouldn't want to take that off just to get a look. The injector pump elements that come off the top don't seem likely to show you much the way it sounds. The info is out there if you want to look deeper at taking this apart, or see what's in there without taking this apart. There's a deutz german forum that google will translate for you, and many of the members would read english well enough to answer your questions if you can't find the answer.
going back to the basics is good advice. I'll work on #2 and #3 without disassembling the high pressure fuel system and get back to you. I wasn't aware of the forum you referenced...I'll try to find it. to answer you question on #1, I'm confident I've ruled out no electronic control. I think I went down a rabbit hole with that when I googled diesel starts and dies and got lots of electronic solenoid results. I should have known better. This thing does not shut down with the key. You push or turn in the throttle control all the way to shut it off.
I think your over thing this whole thing.. U took the lines off the inj. pump & found its not pumping.. U took the inlet line off & spun the engine to find u had good fuel pumping out of the inlet line going TO the inj. pump.. Henceforth, the fuel isnt going THRU the inj. pump..ie: stuck rack.. Pull the inj. pump out of the hole & check the control rack for movement. It'll take u 10 minutes. OR take that PLUG out where an electric sol. would go & that will give u access to the pumps control rack..
I get it now. I was thinking some piece of the over complicated german linkage was stuck, and you'd need to take the whole housing off. You're thinking the rack is stuck at a low idle, or lower, and the extra fuel button allows it to start. That makes sense, and easy enough. I don't understand it, but that never stopped me yet.
Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone's help and patience. i was going to test the fuel pressure like Delmer suggested, but couldn't find the right tees in my shop to make it work. anyway, while starting to do that, i pulled the line off the injection pump. quite a bit of fuel squirted out under pressure. I do not believe I have a problem with the fuel supply to the injection pump and that agrees with what thepumpguysc is saying. Looks like I'm going to pull the pump or plug and check the rack. I'm not sure about procedure to put pump back in if I do that. I'll have to look it up and learn more about the rack.
I removed the injection pump. Yes, removing it was very easy. When I looked in the case I was expecting to see something that was obviously the control rack. Hopefully my pics are good enough. I included one at angle to get a better look at what that primer/starting fuel allowance button connects to. where is the rack and how do i move it to determine if it is frozen?
how about a pic of the bottom of the injection pump? there has to be some linkage on both pump "barrels" that ties them together. Those two tabs must control the fuel. Looks like your start button rotates that arm out of the way letting those tabs move a little further. Those tabs are controlled by the governor, and should be free to move, and move when you move the governor. Do they? You might find something obviously broken, stuck, or unhooked by looking around the bottom of the injection pump, or the inside of that part of the engine, paying attention to what moves when the governor "throttle" moves. Remember, static pressure is not the same as pressure with flow while running.
here's the pic. i tried moving the part in the case that the rod on the pump goes to. it did not move. i also tried moving the throttle control to see if it moved. it did not.
let me modify the above statement. the "fork" that the rod from pump rides in does move. i can move it towards the outer case about 1/2 inch. it can also be move that same direction when i turn the throttle all the way in/off. when i move the throttle back out, the fork moves that 1/2 inch and stops or hits the stop, but i would say it hits that stop approx 1/3 throttle. when i keep moving the throttle the fork does not keep moving.
Does the round knob on the pump in that pic in post #37 move back and forth? That is the rack that moves the pump piston scrolls to control the fuel amount. And if you push those cam followers up, they both spring back with the same force? The case sounds about right, it won't move directly with the throttle lever, as long as it's free and moves somewhat, that's as good as I can tell from here.
The slider on the pump should move left to right, freely.. U see the stamp & arrow on it, STOP.?? That means the other way is RUN. The rack on the pump doesn’t move much.. about an inch or maybe 2.. If the control rack on the pump doesn’t move.. u found the problem.. See if u can compress the rollers on the bottom.. there shouldn’t have any play.. they should be under spring force all the time.. If there’s slip, that means either the spring is broken or the pumping plunger is stuck in the collapsed position.. I don’t suggest opening it up.!! U don’t have the proper gaskets & seals to put it back together.. Feel free to send me a prat msg..
the slider( or is it the called the rack?) on the pump moves freely throughout what it looks like it's intended range of motion, about 3/4". the rollers don't have any play, they are equally hard to compress and then spring right back. the "fork" in the case (that moves the slider on the pump) moves about 1/4" (Delmer said it doesn't move directly with the throttle). It stops moving at partial throttle, so how does pump know to give more fuel? what's next??? also, please correct me on the proper names of the slider on the pump and the fork in the case.
Slider on pump= pump control rack/ pump rack/ rack.. engine slider = ENGINE control rack.. fork is fork if that’s what ya wanna call it .. Fork on the engine control rack..
The engine rack should move all the way opposite the shut off arrow when cranking the engine & the excess button is pushed.. Then snap out of that position when a certain rpm is reached..
Is one of those pics with the excess button pushed n the engine rack moved forward a little.?? Use your finger n see if u can get it to move more... Put the THROTTLE in hi, push the button n watch what happens..
It’s possible the pumping plungers inside the pump are worn to the point that it won’t stay running.?? The only way to access the start/excess mechanism is thru the pump hole.?? If there was a panel u could remove, I would suggest HOLDING the pump rack in excess fuel position w your hand/finger n SLOWLY let it come off of excess after the rpms got up.. I guess u could HOLD THE BUTTON & that would accomplish the same thing.??
It’s possible that there’s a broken spring that holds the rack to full.? & when it kicks out of start, it goes straight to shut off.?? But I would think the force of the engine rack being in hi should hold it.. Move the throttle to wide open & see if u can push it back w your finger..
I'm trying to digest everything you said in posts 43-46. It's apparent the starting fuel allowance button works as it indeed starts the engine. What I deduce from that is that the injection pump works, at least briefly. What also makes me believe that the pump works is that a) there is no outward appearance of pump problems....pump rack works, no slop in rollers and springs tight and b) it is a 2-cylinder pump so it seems sort of unlikely both sides would fail at once, with the exception of the rack. It's kind of leading me to believe something in case, like a spring, gave out.
YOUR #2 thinking is WAY OFF.. seeing it is only a 2cyl, the pumping plungers will get wear sooner & not have the "tighteness" to pump the correct amount of fuel to keep it running.. BUT it would take experienced eyes to look at it.. Look inside again & try to remove the "plug" on the OUTSIDE of the case.. DONT remove it, if the spring is sitting on it.. I'm assuming that the spring way, is the excess fuel way.?? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it.. SO only u can determine which way everything goes.. looking at the arrow on the pump rack..
the "stop" arrow on the pump rack points toward the front of the engine (fanbelt end). The fork on the engine control rack in pic in post #35 is at full fuel (as far toward the back of the engine as it can travel), if you push the extra fuel button down, it rotates that spring loaded arm to move the stop out of the way, and the fork moves further toward the back of the engine, correct? then if you move the fork slightly toward the front of the engine, the extra fuel arm springs back into the way, correct? And if you move the 'throttle" lever to the stop position, the fork moves to the front of the engine, correct? I don't care how far it moves forward, because you don't have a problem shutting this engine off.
Delmer, I'm not where I can look at it right now, but the "stop" and movement directions you describe are exactly right. I have not pressed the button down with pump off. I was concerned I might not possibly be able to reset it and get the pump back in. The way you describe it must be the way it works. And therefore, it sounds like the engine rack and excess fuel button are working correctly, which leads me back to the pump.... I'm glad I didn't take that housing apart yet.
I thought we were way past being afraid of messing something up I agree, though, don't take that pump apart, nothing to see anyway without the eye to see it. The way that button functions seems pretty clear to me, button pushes down tab, tab rotates on the shaft, other arm moves out of the way of the fork. When the engine starts and speeds up, the governor reduces the fuel (moves the rack toward stop) and the spring pulls the arm back out of the way. The arm should reset when you move the throttle to stop also. As best I can guess, there's either something loose/broke in the governor so that it puts too much pressure on the rack killing the engine, or there was not enough fuel flow to keep it running.
Delmer, i would think that is how it works too. My first rule of mechanics is like a doctor, "do no harm". lol. the reason i was hesitant to press the button down is because the manual has this statement about pump removal: "Removal is possible only if starting fuel allowance button has not been activated". I didn't want the reverse to be true for installation, and that is if I pressed it down I couldn't reinstall it. anyway, I'm leaning (no pun intended) on not enough fuel flow to keep it running. The pump is over 30 years old. I am going to send it to thepumpguysc for repair.
well guys, I wish had good news to report. TPG looked at the injector pump and didn't see anything glaring with it. I think he said he cleaned it and put new seals in. I also sent him my injectors, and he said one was dribbling and he fixed it where it would spray. I was hoping maybe that was the problem. I got the parts back and installed them along with a new lift pump. I had to start it with the extra fuel button. it ran fine about 20 seconds, so i turned up the throttle and it acted like it ran out of fuel. It will not start again without the extra fuel button being depressed.
here's some more info to chew on.... I went back out and cranked it up, with fuel allowance button and maybe half throttle. i let it run for a solid 2 minutes. i watched the fuel allowance button and it never popped up. since it was running, i tried to move it. i got about 10 feet and it shut down. I noticed the fuel allowance button had popped up. after that, i could only get it to start with the fuel allowance button down, and then it would only run a few seconds and shut off. I'm not sure whether I like or hate this fuel allowance button. lol
i just tried it again. depressed fuel allowance button, and cranked right up. let it run for like 5 minutes. then i turned up the throttle. as soon as fuel allowance button popped up, it shut off. maybe something with the governor???
crazy thing. i went out this morning with the intention of cranking the machine and trying to limp it to the barn without adjusting the throttle (so that I could pull the front cover off and look at the governor for something broken). i started it with the fuel allowance button, hopped on it and drove it there. i turned the throttle down to shut it off. i then figured what the hell, let's see if it start without the fuel allowance button. to my surprise, it did. I adjusted the throttle all the way up and let it run to see if it would run out of fuel. it did not stop running (hurray!). i turned it back down all the way to shut-off and then repeated it. same thing. it was starting to rain so i only operated the hydraulics briefly, but everything seems ok. I guess when the weather clears I'll work it some.
Any updates here. I have one of these machines with the same symptoms.