Having no expierence with scrapers, except seeing them work, I had a couple questions about some of the terms and phrases I've heard here on HEF. 1. What is a cushion hitch? 2. What is the difference between a cushion hitch and a non-cushion hitch? 3. Whats is the apron? 4. What would be the instances where a scraper would not need a push dozer? 5. Do dual engine scrapers need push dozers? 6. What are the benefits of having an elevating scraper compared to the other type? I don't know what the other type is called. Pictures are helpful too.
A cushion hitch is a mechinism on the gooseneck (Hinge if you will ) That when raised uses a hydraulic ram and a nitrogen accumulator to absorb alot of the shock between the scraper and tractor during travel. Much easier on man and machine. A non cushion hitch is just ridgid( no shock absorber) The apron is on open bowl scrapers, it is the front door that holds the material in when shut or allows the scraper to dump or load when open. Elevating scrapers don't need a dozer unless they are stuck or for ripping the cut. An elevating scraper can work alone, they can pick up loose berms left by a grader,they help process or mix moisture in the material as they load, they don't like rocks. Twin motor scrapers usually work in pairs or threes to help each other load, can be pushed also. Hope that helps. DP
Hi Countryboy Ill try and answer best I can for you and have a look through my pics to see if I have any closeups that show that stuff. The front part of a scraper is refered to as the tractor and the back is the scraper. Where the two connect together is the hitch. Cushion hitch is one that has what looks like a big shock on it. Helps keeps the machine from bounceing. Hitch without a cushion is often called a stiff neck. In my opinion the cushion hitch was the best thing ever invented for scrapers. Its what allows them to go so fast. Stiff necks are realy slow cuz you can't get em moving fast without getting bounced out of the seat. The appron is also often called the gate. That's the part above the cutting edges that opens and closes to let you load or dump. Single engine scrapers need a push cat cuz they can't get enough power to the ground to get a full load by themselves. Although I have spent lots of time stripping without a cat with a 631 when the conditions were realy good. Topsoil is the easiest stuff to get a big load on with. Dual engine, or twins as they are more commonly called (dunno why they called twins. They are not. The front motor is bigger because it powers all the hydraulics as well as front wheels) don't need a pushcat except for the rare occasion when the ground is really soft. And even in those conditions if two are working together pushpulling with good operators they will do good without a cat. If they can't do it working together its probably adt territory. I have never run an elevating scraper myself. But have been told by guys that have that if the material is chunky it helps bust it up and also helps stack up a bigger load. Maybe someone who has time on one can better explain them to us. The other type is called an open bowl. Did I explain it all ok? I will try finding a pic of the hitch and the apron.
lol took me a long time to type that book. I'm using my phone. Your post wasn't up when I started Pete
l Two heads always better than one :drinkup DP
Right on Pete cheers! And you brought up a good point I had forgoten. Even twins need a ripper cat if the ground is realy hard. Bigger loads faster and really saves the cutting edges.
I'm kinda surprised scrapers don't have theair own section in HEF? I don't know about the rest of the world but here in Canada everywhere East of the rockys up to Ontario (havnt been past there so dunno) scrapers are the big ticket were there is lots of dirt to move. With the exception of the big mines but they are there as well. And build lots of the roads into them.
We pull our scrapers with 4-wheel drive tractors, haven't had very good luck with self-propelled scrapers. The only time we push is when it's too wet for the tractors to pull themselves. Usually have no problem getting heaped loads if the conditions are halfway decent. Tractors also ride a lot smoother. That's what works for us.
I have never worked with the pull type scrapers so I don't know much about them. They seem to be getting more popular though. Tractors are for sure way smother ride then a scraper. What was the bad luck you had with self propelled? What kind were you using?
You typed all that with your phone? Are the numbers still on the buttons.... Thanks for the replies guys. :drinkup More questions: 1. Whats the largest amount of twin scrapers that can be teamed together for loading? 2. Who else makes scrapers besides Cat? I've only seen Cat scrapers. 3. What is an average top speed of scrapers loaded and unloaded? 4. Why are all the wheels on a scraper mounted solid? I would think that if some travel was allowed on either end, traction would be gained.
Probably "twin" in the sense of "two" -- akin to how two-engined jetliners are called "twinjets." (Not "twin" in the sense of "alike.")
CB I'll try this in order: 1) I have seen as many as 5 twin engines hooked together to load, but it is usually not a good thing. I seen the results (secondhand) of 5 657B scrapers hooked up loading. The tail end hooked a hard spot, and with over 4000 HP pulling on it, the goosneck broke right in half 2 is generaly the rule, but sometimes we hook up 3 in soft sand where we are traction limited. 2) Cat is far and away the largest producers of modern scrapers. They have no current competition in the larger scrapers, but some others make paddle wheels. Dresser, Fiat, John Deere, and a few others recently were making small units, but none sell very well. Most people would rather have an old Cat than a new anything else. 30 to 40 years ago, it was a far different story, and Cat had to play catch up to get to the top of the heap. Euclid was the top scraper brand for many years in the 50's and 60's. TS-24 was the best around in its day, but does not compare to modern units. LeTourneau, which later became WABCO, and Euclid, which later became Terex, were the prime contenders. Cat surpassed them all, largly because of the dealer support. Currently, Terex is the only other choice for large scrapers, and they are mostly nearing the end of their service life. Here in SoCal, there are about 100 TS-24B and C scrapers running, but over 2000 Cat 631 and up. 3) Most scrapers have an average top speed of a little over 30 MPH, which is really moving for what they are. 4) The wheels are mounted solid for reliability and simplicity, which go hand in hand. Cat has one model, the 615 paddle wheel, with a front suspension axle, and the B and C model Terex TS-24's have a front suspension axle, with nitrogen struts similar to a rock truck. They ride pretty good when functioning properly, but create a lot of maintenance items to go wrong. I would post some pics, but time is short for me, and I don't have it down to a quick process. Someday I will take the time to learn, but right now it takes a painfully long time to get them up. Hope that helps. I'm sure surfer joe will chime in with more as well
Great stuff JD. :drinkup I might've wanted to try one of these things out if not for the stories I've heard about them. So I'll stick to reading about them.
Lol numbers are getting a little faded Most I have hooked together is 6. That was in sand. In hard ground 4 tops. And if its hard and rocky only two. I was second in line one time in a train of 5. The scraper in front suddenly hooked realy hard ground, bit off more then we could chew and stopped dead. The rest of the train never even flinched. Jack knifed me in a heartbeat and snapped my bail like it was just a spaghetti noodle lol before the train could stop. Scared the **** outa me. Thought I was gunna get crushed. I've heard lots of similar stories were scrapers have got ripped in two or the floor ripped out of them when one hooks a rock when to many are hooked together. Cat and Terex are the most popular self propelled. John Deere makes them as well. Fiat allis used to make some. Don't think they do anymore but I'm not sure. Cat and terex are the only ones I've worked with. There are more but can't recall the names. Top speed on hard ground is about 35mph. If the ground is hard they reach top gear empty or loaded no prob. I agree about the wheels. I'm guessing its because its way to hard to design a suspension system that would last. But maybe someone will come up with a system sometime soon. They are doing some great things with haul truck.
Stupid phone I'm way behind again lol great stuff jd
Here is a couple shots my wife took out the widow of her adt this winter.
Not behind, just working at a different pace. More questions: :drinkup 1. Is the connection between the 2 engines on a twin scraper mechanical or electrical? 2. If someone were to develop a suspension system, would it better to have one end suspended or both? 3. Is there any articulation in the hitch besides the side to side, for turning? Enough questions for tonight.
lol Right on The connection is electrical. It has a little brain box that keeps the transmissions in sync. And the throttle is run by air. I think suspension in the front would make a big difference. But wouldn't make a big difference in the back. Yup. Moves like an atd (with dif type of connection of course). They have stops though that keep them for going all the way like a truck.
Your response time is improving Brian. Excellent help. :thumbsup
Here is one articulated some but not much. They will go a lot further.
LOL check that move out eh lol even got a pic up quik (helps that they all cam phone pics so don't need to resize)....think I'm finaly getting it all figured. Just gotta get those smileys figured out better now. some of those placed right crack me right up
It was several years ago and I was so unimpressed I can't remember exactly, I think it was a 613? Does that sound right? It got stuck on a turd, always had to push it around, even even going up a small greasy hill empty where the Steigers just walked around it. Most of our jobs are smaller so we don't need the huge scrapers, but we can still move 50,000 yds fairly easily with 2 or 3 tractors.
On twin engine scrapers, the transmissions are synchronised electrically, and the rear throttle runs off pressurised air. Unless Cat got silly and put a drive by wire throttle on the G series.... Always fun in the winter, if ya get one no one has drained the air tanks on all summer.... The 613 has a cab designed for a midget..... As far as articulation, you can get one side of the tractor to pitch up a pretty impressive amount..scares new guys sometimes... but as long as the scraper stays level, you are generally all right. The most important thing to remember about making a scraper cut is that the attitude/level of the rear wheels determines how the cutting edge cuts, You can put one wheel in a hole to key in to a slope, or start a ditch, for instance. Learning the tricks is what makes you a useful operator. Believe me, I learned some of them by mistake....see picture at left...LOL! alan627b
Scrapers will sure do some amazing things eh. The only thing that realy limits them is the imagination of the operator. I love working on slopes with them. I'm an adrenalin junky. There is almost no slope you can't tackle if you aprouch it at proper angles. Especially with a Terex TS 14. Of the machines I have operated they are the most stable. Done right you can trim a 1.5:1 slope. You have the tractor running almost but not quite parallel and the scraper running diagnal. Feather the back motor just enough so its keeping you from sliding down but keeps sliding you sideways without pushing you up. And the front just enough to keep pulling forward. The tractor will go right up onto the bumpstops once in a while but you can't roll because the scraper is hanging onto you. Give the wheel a good tug down and it comes back onto all four wheels. What a rush. Next to never get to do that kind of stuff anymore though. With the safety regs nowadays people start to get nervous even when klimb up on a 2.5:1.
OK, ya talked me into it and I've had my nap already. I started out on a Ford 8N tractor with a scoop in the back mounted to the 3-point hitch. Some folks called them a Fresno. Next was a Euclid S7, neat little machine, noisy and not too fast. Detroit 471 engine, Allison auto, hard hitch and a bouncy ride sometimes. Graduated to Letourneau D-Pull. About the same size as the S7, same engine, standard 5-speed tranny, and of course, electric steering and cable controls for the bowl. My brother and I owned four of these around 1967. Pushed them with the Cat D8 2U tractors. Very bouncy! Had a hard hitch. After that, MRS (Mississippi Road Service) 110's and 200's. The 110 was a four-wheel drive tractor pulling a 14 CY hydraulic scraper. The scraper could be remounted on a fifth wheel axle assembly and pulled by a Cat D7 or 8, or in our case, a TD20B International dozer. The 110 tractor could steer the front axle, the rear axle, or both together for crab steering. Never saw any advantage to this arrangement for crab steering, but it scared hell out of the locals as we were highballing it down the highway. Anyway, This tractor had the Detroit 6V53 and it was a real screamer at about 195 HP. 6-speed Allison tranny and a hard hitch. These units would rock you to sleep going down the road, but were so crammed with high-tech stuff that they weren't very dependable. The scraper bowls made excellent gun pits in a firefight. The 200 was a monster we thought, and I actually only ever ran one in training in Rhode Island for a couple of days. The tractor had a 450 HP Cummins, a thirteen-speed Road Ranger with a two-speed locking-differential, air brakes -- which could be applied by hand to the right or left drive wheels, and a drawbar that was rigged with a weight transfer device. The scrapers we had were hydraulic, but I've seen pictures of these creatures with a PTO rigged for cable. The weight device was used as you began getting a larger load in the bowl. With the big engine, you would lose traction easily, so you started applying pressure from the scraper hitch to the tractor drawbar. The more loaded the bowl became, the more weight you could transfer to the hitch. You could get real busy with these critters as there were more levers and things to use for loading, turning, traction, and unloading than one man could handle by himself, not to mention steering and shifting gears. I used a 200 tractor with a standard 5th wheel dolly to pull a Rogers 50 ton loboy all over Northern I-Corp in Vietnam. If we could get it on the trailer, I could pull it. Steering was slow to respond, and my favorite tractor had a two-speed differential that I had to stop, crawl under, and shift by hand as the control was busted. We had one other one that was faster by about 5 MPH, the engine was set to a higher RPM, but my old girl was a real hog at pulling and would pass the other fella going uphill easily. MRS built very large scrapers back when Cat was just thinking about getting into the business. I believe the largest was a double barrel unit running about 50-60 yards heaped. Never saw one in the flesh, but maybe some of the boys here have from down along the big muddy. That's where they made em. The Army boys, and even the Vietnamese engineers, had the Cat 630M scraper. It looked like the 110 MRS, but we Seabees all drooled over them and wondered why we didn't have any. I never ran one. MRS made a smaller unit that the mud Marines used. It was about a 8 yard machine and used a 471 Detroit for power with an Allison tranny. By the way, all the machines I have described so far have been open or no cab machines, maybe just an umbrella and a windscreen. No seatbelts. No heaters. I used a Cat DW20 for a few days in Rhode Island, but the Bees were phasing them out by then and I never ran another. Did use a DW21 some in Colorado, didn't like either one much. There were a host of pull scraper manufacturers way back, you still see them in parks and scrap yards or along side the highway rusting away. They were all cable, and if you have ever had to pull cable through all the sheaves on the dern things, you will understand why they fell out of favor pretty quick when the hydraulics became available. The trick was to not let the cable break completely apart. If you were careful and took it easy, you could spool more cable off the reel and replace the damaged section fairly easily. If it busted in two, you were up for a dirty afternoon. You may notice some Cat cable scrapers with a wooden spool of cable parked up on the right front of the scraper draft-tube. That's what it was there for. I ran TS14's in Texas south of San Antonio for HB Zachry. They were a fun little machine and would go anywhere. I still like em. These had the 471's front and rear with air-shifted Allison's. The thottle to the rear was air. Hard hitches and they flat would launch your butt in the sky on a rough haul. We pushed them with a single D9G pushcat when the operator was paying attention. The muck in the riverbed there was a combination of gravel, sand, and clay. The clay sometimes would roll into the bowl like a jellyroll, and it just curled up untill that 9 couldn't stuff another ounce inside the apron. Trouble came when we tried to eject the stuff. It was so heavy the ejector couldn't lift up. OK, some explanation here. S7's, S14's and TS14's, S and TS24's, and all 32's all used an ejector that was a combination of ejector and bowl floor. It was hinged right behind the moldboard and it lifted up and forward to dump the load. Cats and others use a solid floor with a push type ejector on rollers that simply moved straight forward. Some Eucs used two hydraulic cylinders, one on each side, to lift the apron whereas Cat used a single cylinder with a dog bone and a banana link on top of the gooseneck to lift the apron. Some other makers used a similar setup, only with a cable instead of the dog bone link. The TS14's used this last style. So, where was I, oh yeah! Anyway, dumping the 14's with a big roll of clay was tough. If it wouldn't dump, we would back up a bit, then charge forward with the apron wide open. There was a trick to getting the aprons to flip up and backwards out of the way completely that we learned to use, but the master mechanic didn't like us doing it. Well we'd charge forward, apron up, then hit the ejector for up and the trans shifter for reverse, all at the same time with full RPM on the engines and a hairy handed grip on the wheel and the ejector lever. Most of the time that roll of clay would just spool right out and we would make a hard 90 degree turn to the left or right to clear it. The master mechanic didn't like us pulling this trick either. But once in a while, we couldn't get it out and we would have to go over to where a Cat 225 excavator was working and have him dig some out. That was considered a great loss of face for us and we hated like hell to do it. Shortly after that I went on to Colorado. Denver was doing a boom at the time and there were literally dozens of International 295 elevating Payscrapers all over town working on housing developments and highways. This is the first place I ever saw pushcats used behind elevating scrapers. The reason for it was that they were working on benches so high and steep that they couldn't even get up to the bench by themselves let alone load. The Cats eased them up and then stayed behind as the can loaded up. They didn't really push hard so much as just kept the pan moving gently. Most of Interstate 25 from the New Mexico line to Ft. Collins was built by these rigs. I ran a TS24 for an outfit building housing pads and roads over near Morrison and that was a blast and a half. Euc scrapers were some of the easiest loading scrapers in the world, mostly due to the angle of the moldboards. Cats used a steeper angle and were harder to load, even when being pushed. The Eucs were much faster to dump too. The 24 had no cab and that was a cold winter and a late spring. I bought a pair of Air Force high altitude flight pants at Jax in Ft. Collins, and with a big ski parka and ski mitts, along with some Antarctic inflatable boots, managed to make it Ok without freezing too bad. Paddle-wheel, or elevating scrapers, are an interesting device and the smaller units are kinda fun to run. 613's are a hard hitch machine and prone to bounce real bad. Early units used the 3208 boat anchor engine, and disc brakes on all four wheels. The brakes worked well, but in wet clay type soil, the rear wheels would just drag all over and the front wheel would spin like crazy. We learned to just go home when it rained. The calipers on a disc brake are designed to drag slightly, and Cat never figured out how to make them drag less so you could move the machine in mud or wet clay. It was an interesting year and I learned to extricate my 613 from almost every conceivable situation. I would teach these methods later on to 613 operators in several places. After college, I wound up in Florida working for an AC dealer with lots of 260 and 460 open bowl and 261 elevating scrapers working all over the state. Most of those working in the Ft. Lauderdale area were 261's, and while there were a nice machine to run, they were a real b*****d to work on. These were all hard hitch machines and had a lot of transmission trouble. Believe it or not, you had to remove the engine and tranny as a unit. What a drag. The steel used in the elevator paddles on these machines far outlasted those used on the Johnson scrapers being sold by Cat at the time. Some of the 460's had the GM engines, and some were using the newer Buda/Allis Chalmers. Well, I'm up to the limit tonight, got to go.
Thanks for the history lesson Joe. that was a really interesting read. Have you ever seen a ripper on the back of a scraper? I ran an old TS14 (67) for a while that had one. It worked great. Never seen another since. I thought it was a great idea and often wondered why they never cought on.
Excellent reading there Joe. Great stuff. :drinkup I got to thinking about it and our small water truck is a 613B enclosed cab. I always thought it was a water truck by model number but you say there are 613 scrapers? I drove it a couple times when I didn't have anything to do but I didn't like it to swuft. Not the machine itself but the problems it had. Main problem is it steers to the left perfectly but if you want to go right, you have to wait about a minute for it to go all the way.
657g What does everyone think of the new 57's? We have 2 new ones, they are nice srapers to run now that they have the single stick setup, but they seam to be underpowered. They went to I believe a acert 19 in front and an acert 16 in the rear. They just dont have the power that the older scrapers we had. We are having lots of problems with the wiring between the front and the rear of the scraper. The rear quits pulling and sets of all the buzzers of and it wount move. They big wheels at cat are comong out to try to figure out what is going on. One of the cat mechanics here Said that the new 657G have 6 computers on them now. The last 657's we had only had 4 of them.
Saw pictures of rippers and winches mounted on the back of scrapers and other far out configurations, but never came across a live one. The 613 was the first elevating scraper that Cat made, they used some Johnson and maybe some others (Hancock?) before that for a model they called the 619, but the 613 was their first totally made in house model. The fact that it's still being produced today is proof that it was and is a viable design that works well for a lot of contractors. 613's have been made into many different things including water wagons. Mega in New Mexico started out using contractors own used machines, then bought a few used ones themselves and rebuilt them, now buys new ones from Cat to use. But they will still use yours as well. I remember some outfit in Colorado that built a lot of freeway with the 619's. The crew would actually set up camp near some shade trees and live on the job for weeks or months in campers and trailers, even tents. They helped build one of the last open stretches of Interstate 70 west of Parachute right at the entrance to DeBeque Canyon. They had maybe 8 or 9 of these machines and were always working on a couple of them under a Cottonwood tree.
Hi Gary I haven't had the opportunity yet to run a 57, would realy like though. I love the big iron. But a company I used to work for bought 2 627G's. I the begening they had all kinds of problems with the electrical to. One had to have the joystick repalced twice in only a couple months. And once in a while when you went to put it in gear again after stopping for lunch the front would try and go forward and the back would go into reverse. Took a while to work the bugs out but once they did they were great machines. I loved them. All kinds of power, they are like big go carts. Couple years later they got 2 637G's and they were great no real problems with them. But they didn't seem to have anymore power then our series II E's. In fact the E's seemed to have more bottom end power. All in all I love the new G series. What a step up for the operator eh. The cab is like an office. Cat didn't leave much out when they buit them. Even gave us a swivel seat and 2 buttons on the floor for the dif lock to make it easyer to run with your left foot.
Camp set up on the job is still quite common here Joe. For a solid 10 years camp was purty much my home (was married and had a house but was never there, camp felt more like home with my house just being a place I visited once in a while). Usually Atco trailers connected together. The biggest camp I stayed in that was on the job was when I was twinning part of hiway 43 near Valleyview. We had over 130 people in camp at peak and it was set up right beside the hiway. When I met my second wife and she started traveling/working with me 5 years ago I bought a holiday trailer for us. We rented a house for a short time but it was pointless because it just turned out to be an expensive place to store our stuff. We were never there so gave it up and upgraded to a nice fifth wheel. Usually find a nice campground nearby but still camp on the job once in a while...sorry guys a little off topic there.
Didn't see anyone say anthing about kicking out the cushion hitch when loading. You can sure did a hole quick if you don't kick that thing out when push/pulling.
Welcome to HEF Gary M. Martin! :drinkup
subject Well I have never been hooked to another scraper,only pushed .We have one twin,or double barrell as we call em,an older Terex.Our 613 is a self loader,paddlewheeler like the old steamboat paddle wheelers.We have 621s,621b models a 623 self loader not currently operating due some problems.But anyone of em will beat the operator silly if the pusher hits too hard or dont know what he is doing.:Banghead
Im glade i stumbled across this site it is very cool.
639d Can anyone remember the 639D twin engine elevating scraper Cat produced in the early eighties? It was not in production for long i dont think. They had one in Malaga at Cats demonstration ground but never saw one anywhere else.
I remember the 639's, but not very well because there were never many of them produced. Clark produced a double-barrel paddle-wheel and it was a real rip snorter. The only one I ever saw had a Detroit 12V71 fore and aft and it really hauled the mail. I actually have a Swiss plastic model of that machine and one of these days when I can't do anything else I'm going to put er together. It's a neat model. Trouble with the Cat's was that they couldn't run the paddles fast enough to keep up with ground speed. I've never run a Cat auger-scraper, but they are mostly set up on double-barrels and seem to do pretty good.
I got to run a brand new 621G auger scraper in Arizona 2 years ago. Not a bad machine at all, loaded pretty well as long as the ground wasn't too hard. I don't think the auger has enough power to load heavy clay like I am used to in Nebraska. A 627G might have been better. In looser soils, It loaded as well as the 627B's I am used to, and in about the same time. Michigan used to make a small paddlewheel, 110- something or other. It had about the same capacity as a 613 or an S11, but had a 110 HP4-71 in both ends. I talked to a guy who had one, he said it would load itself in it's own length! Probably a great finish machine. John Deere 3 axle 760's were supposed to be excellent fnish machines as well. Surfer Joe, got any stories comparing whgat the 3 axle scrapers were like compared to a cushion hitch overhung style> I'd kill to run a 666 for a while..... Keep it going! alan627b
Never seen one of them . Anybody got pictures?
So you want to see some scrapers huh? Check the ones at this address out!!.. http://www.gordyflemingequipment.com/scrapers.htm The last picture is a 760 Deere. Surprisingly enough, I only ever ran one of these. I was home on leave and my brother thought he might want to buy one and knew a guy had one to sell close by. Nothing for it but we go over to the guys house and do a walk a round. It looks OK, and brother wants to buy, but I say wait, we better run the bejesus out of it first, make sure it's OK. I, being just home from Vietnam, was fit as a bow fiddle and well used to really putting the pedal to the metal. So I jump on this little scraper and just wring it's neck out. After about 15 or 20 minutes the engine is overheating and coolant is boiling out of the rad overflow cap. The tranny is clanking every time it shifts and the gearbox for the elevator is smoking. I shut her down and saunter over to my brother and say, "I don't think we want this one." Boy was that guy mad! I guess he thought he had a sucker hooked. I've seen a lot of these machines around. They used a Hancock scraper with what used to be a 5010 tractor, the earliest ones actually used a big two cylinder engine I think, then was changed to the newer 6 cylinder in-line. You might notice that this little critter doesn't have a cushion hitch. It didn't have much of a seat cushion either, That was one hard ride. Very bouncy! The elevators were powered off the tractor PTO with that long driveshaft you can see sticking up over the top of the gooseneck. In hard digging you could stall the tractor with the elevator. That driveshaft was also susceptible to bending easily. But it was a very powerful machine for it's size. The picture up from the Deere is a D-Pull or model D LeTourneau, not a Wabco. The tires actually look better than most of the ones My brother and I owned. The old girl doesn't look in all that bad of shape. You notice that the covers are off or missing for the breaker and relay boxes on the gooseneck. A little sanding and filing on those would probably make it run almost as good as new, which is say, not real good. We left the covers off our boxes too, so we could take a broom-stick and whack the appropriate switch when it didn't work when it was supposed to. The steering switches were usually the ones that quit. Scary when going down the road in 5th gear and the damn thing wouldn't turn. This machine had the dependable ole 471 GM diesel, or Jimmy. They weren't called a Detroit just yet. Yeah, geez, the ole thing still has both headlight bulbs, someone took good care of this one. They were otherwise noted as the kings of bounce! There is a picture of a nice 444 International double-barrel elevator scraper. Rare! Note that hard hitch. Some good pictures of other scrapers too. That guy has quite a collection. Deas and squizzy, that white stuff is snow, not Australian gypsum. Here is another good site for technical information on the 760: http://johnnypopper.com/weirddeere/NG/The_JD760.html Enjoy!
Great pics Joe :Thumbsup Here is another link for you all. www.pushpull.ca I worked with the guy that runs this site for about 4 years. He runs a 637G. He has a laptop with a webcam mounted in it. It refreshes with a new pic every 30 seconds when he has it turned on. In the photo gallery the one labeled Brian is me and the ones labeled the stack are mine as well.
OK, here's some more. In 1971, I'd been home a year and had worked for my brother a while and a couple of other contractors. My 69 Oldsmobile and I were just about persona non gratis in the state, so my brother in law gets me a job down in San Antonio, Texas in his pals outdoor sign shop. I blast my way down there, picking up a couple more of what made me so unwelcome in Michigan. It wasn't my fault, it was the Oldsmobile what did it. Nice car, a dark green two door hardtop 88, 455 cubic inch 400 honest horsepower engine, 140 mile per hour speedometer, the whole thing was a police special, originally specced for the Lansing, Michigan city police department. It buried the speedometer with ease and ran down most Corvettes and Mustangs so quickly they didn't know I was there till their doors came off from the suction of me going by....... But I digress. After falling sixteen feet or so off a well rotted sign near Kerrville, Texas one day, I quit the outdoor advertising business for good, and scrounged up a job out to McDonough Bros., a lime and cement outfit west of San Antone. The job was a night shift position driving a vacuum truck around the plant cleaning up dirt and dust. It was a ten hour shift, and I'm strictly a daytime person. I could, some nights, barely receive radio station WLS out of Chicago on the trucks radio. That helped keep me awake, but not always. I woke up one night, creeping along in first gear, blower motor (a Ford 6) wailing away, and about six feet straight in front of me was the main scale station weigh shack. I dynamited the brakes and got her stopped, maybe a foot from the door of the shack, then got out and slid the smelly stuff down my pants legs and walked around a bit till my knees quit shaking so bad. You know how it is....... While I got my normal aplomb back, I gave a hard think on just what the heck I was doing out there, at night, driving a dinky vacuum truck around a deserted plant for strictly minimum wage. (maybe $2.75 an hour or something like that at the time) Yep, I quit the next day, having worked a total of 12 nights. I slept for two days straight, when the redheaded gal in the apartment next door to mine let me. (Oops, nother story!) Then I found a job with HB Zachry, one of Texas prime dirt contractors. I reported to work at the jobsite south of town on the banks of the Bexar River, for a position as a scraper hand. Wasn't sure what they had in mind, just that it was a scraper job, and it paid the princely sum of $4.75 an hour. We didn't have to have a physical or pass a **** test in those days. That was sissy stuff. All we had to do was show up reasonably sober and breathing, preferably with two arms and two legs. I found the foreman and announced that "I was here!" He actually was quite glad to see me as he'd had two operators quit and one get hurt. So, him being short a 666 Cat hand, that's where I went the first day. This fleet of 666's were all the "A" model. A little slow in the cut, but boy they'd scat on the haul road. We were carving out huge chunks of river bottom for a Corps of Engineers project involving widening and deepening the river channel right south of the 410 beltway. Zachry had 12 of these monsters in the spread and we really hauled some muck out of there. We had four D9G pushcats behind us most of the time, loaded in maybe 10 seconds flat. Till we hit the soft mucky spots. Then we might be stuck for an hour or so till the Cats got it figured out how to push or pull us out. No cushion hitches on these babies, they were a real HE-MAN'S machine! It was great, I started on Wednesday, and the 666's were finished Friday at the end of the day. They had been down there for three months already and had most of the big dirt done. Now they were needed on a job down in Mexico and Zachry's mechanics were there to go right to work tearing them down for shipment. Wow, those were three great days! The foreman came up to me with my paycheck and wondered what I was going to do with the big Cats gone, and my job with them. They were only taking Spanish speaking operators down to Mexico with the scrapers, and all I could say was "ole", and "Si!" I could speak a little Vietnamese too, but that didn't count for much. Well, I didn't know, but allowed as how I was looking for a job when I found that one, and guessed I could find another someplace. The foreman, Dave, said "why don't you show up here Monday morning, I just might have a seat for you on something." "Ok, see you then," and I went off to party with the redhead for the weekend. Monday I showed up and Dave slapped me on a Euclid TS14, as sweet a little scraper as you ever sat in the seat on. We used those TS14's and one D9G pushcat and a D8H dozer to finish up the cut in the river bottom. They would walk where the 666's sank out of sight and we had a ball for two months finishing up the dirt. Probably moved as much muck in those two months as the 666's did in a day. When we finished there, we took the little blighters down to a dam somewhere south of town about fifty miles, maybe down to Lake LBJ, I don't remember. Roaded them down, took us all day. We then dug out the toe of the earth-filled dam and back-filled it all the way to the top with an additional 80 feet of well compacted fill. Took us about three weeks I think, then, here came Dave one Friday night. "Uh, these scrapers are going down to Mexico where the 666's went." "I guess you can't go, cause ya gotta speak Spanish," only he called it something else, we wasn't PC in those days either. I'd only picked up one other word in Spanish, which this being a family forum I can't repeat. So, I was out of work again. One good thing Zachry did that I always have remembered, was that they had a crew go around every project on weekends, and wash every earthmover on each job. The machines were then usually very clean on Monday, but you did get used to taking a roll of paper towels in to work, cause you had to wipe all the grease off the windscreen, steering wheel, other controls, and the seat cushions. Zachry used a Moly grease and lots of it, so those guys blasted it all over everything when they squirted the rigs down. Course they were in a hurry and couldn't be bothered with cleaning a little grease off things in the cockpit. In the meantime, A tornado had came by the apartments where I was living and took out all the new construction that the owner was doing to ad more rooms. He was doing the redhead too by then, in exchange for her room rent. He politely informed me that I'd have to leave as they needed to modify my apartment so they could ad the new ones on. In fact, the carpenters had already knocked holes in the wall for the ceiling joists of the addition. But, I knew the real reason he was evicting me, so I'd found a new apartment, one with walls two feet thick, a ceiling about a half inch thick, and a place that literally crawled with cockroaches at night. It might have crawled during the day too, but I wasn't there for that. Man, I couldn't pass a little gas in that place without the guy upstairs thumping the floor with a mop handle and yelling, "be quiet down there!" I finally got mad one evening and thumped the ceiling right back with a ¾ drive ratchet handle, with which I threatened to use to install some fresh lumps on his pointy little head. Anyway, I'd had about enough of San Antone, so, having traded in the mighty Olds for a new 71 Chev Vega panel truck, I loaded up and headed west out of town. As always, I was looking for a another job.
Aww, bad boy Brian. Never, never leave the can up on a scraper, less there's a mechanic under it you don't like.
You still travel lots Joe or are you settled down now?
:lol which pic you lookin at?
What are you still doing up Brian? It's bedtime Man! I have had some health problems the last four years that have either kept me home or in hospital. Seems the only social life I've had, is going to and from another doctor appointment. I managed to stay put in Bakersfield 8 years, longest time I've lived in one town since I got out of diapers. Since I got married, the wife and I have moved somewhere around 44 times. Many of those moves were on the company dime, some on mine. I transferred a lot in later years with same company as I became a senior maintenance manager. Only one wife, she's stuck with me going on 35 years. Looking at a new job right now that may require some travel in the southwest. Not looking forward to moving any more, done that, got the tee-shirt you know. With my health greatly restored, I may still have a few more years to collect some more sea stories. We'll see how the interview goes this week.
There's one of some guy standing in front left side of a 651, bowl off ground about a foot or so. Midnight here, I'm going to hit the sack.
I've always had troubles with sleep off and on. Getting bad latley. I'm trying to get set up and settle down close to my kids. Haven't moved any dirt since January and my feet are getting real itchy already. I've lived my like a coyote sofar to.Probably feel a little better once we get everything going and I working steady again. I hate not working, I start going nutty reallu fast. Really sad to hear about your health. Hope it gets better and the new job works out good.
Oh good eye that's Manwell he is the guy that has the webcam in his scraper. Its his website.
Interesting tales Joe.Always wanted to at least see a 666 running, if not take a crack at one myself. Big iron indeed. alan627b
OK Alan, I have run some other triple 6's, but only for an hour or so. As you remark, they are rare and getting more so every day. 657's are similar, but ride different and are much more maneuverable. The power situation is about the same tho. Going over rough ground, such as is found in a cut, is a little smoother on the 666. You're speed is down, sure, but it's still a little better ride. 666's hold the road a little better, and are better on the fill too I think, unless it's really soft or mucky -- as in slippery. The front wheels will hydra-plane or skid on you in soft or slippery stuff, but they have a wheel brake, so you just throw a little of that on and it brings you around. Not too much or you will come around all the way to the stops, Not Good, it jars your teeth out and gives you a headache you see! Cabs are a bit bigger on the 666's, if you have a cab. Zachry's units were open ROPS. The power is awesome! A good 651 will scoot right out on hard footing on the flats or down hill. Loaded is a little slower. The triple 6 really moves when you kick that back engine in! It's not like driving a double A fueler, but then, a AA fueler doesn't carry 54 yards of muck either. The sensation of speed and power together, along with the feel of the sheer size of the thing is what grabs you by the cajonie's. That's 950 horsepower or better putting it down town. For a longer haul or a longer shift, I think I would prefer the 666 over the 657 or 651. Just a better ride overall. But they are harder and more costly to transport. And jobs that need that size of scraper went away for a while and Cat couldn't sell any, so they put them on the shelf, and never brought em back. OK, true story time. In early 1971, I was, for some reason I've forgotten, driving down Rte 550 toward's Cuba, New Mexico. I was back-tracking I think, cause I'd heard of a job down that way. First thing you know, I'm in a hell of a dust storm and my little Vega panel truck got a badly dusted windshield. OK, survived that. Next thing you know, I going up a little switchback around the corner and here comes a Cat 660 just barreling downhill. Course, he's in the middle of the road, and my Vega would fit twice in the bowl, and it was a narrow two-lane rural highway. I ran up on the shoulder, of which there wasn't much, and managed to get by him. The operator was the whitest faced Mexican I ever saw, scared crapless you know!. That wasn't bad enough, there were five more right behind him. Every one of them was just moaning from flat out engines and retarder's pulled on hard. The smell of burning brakes just about gagged me. I got real sweaty for a few minutes there. This was back in the bad old days, no pilot cars, no pickups anywhere with blinky's, no nothing, just six 660's out for a spin. I turned around and followed them, figuring that they had to be going to a project nearby, and they were. I'd driven past the road leading in. It was site development for a coal burner power plant. But, there was no joy for me. It was a union job and I didn't have a card, nor did I want to drive all the way back to Albuquerque to sign up. I'd been there the day before and the union hall said things weren't looking good. So I turned around and headed back up to Colorado, where I looked up an old Seabee pal of mine and stayed there three days. By the way, those 660's were out of Albuquerque, they had left the day before at daylight, stayed overnight in Cuba, and left there at daylight. In 1971, I was working for a little contractor doing some work at Perry Park south of Denver near Castle Rock. I was using a 955 Cat to load gravel out of a pit just on the east side of I-25. We only had two tandem dumps, so I was getting a lot of sack time between loads you see. I heard the unmistakable sound of a 651 or something like it approaching and stirred up to see what it was for sure and where it was headed. It wasn't just one 651, there was about fifty of them, all being roaded right up the interstate. Some were close together, some were spread out. I watched this parade for about an hour as they lumbered on by headed north. I loaded the trucks again, settled in for more siesta, when here came a raft of 641's, maybe 30 or so. Same as the 51's, no pilot cars, no pickups, no police escort. OK. This was neat and I wondered where they were headed and where they came from. These machines all had the Holloway Construction Company decals on them. The next day, about noon, here came a bunch of 666's, maybe 25 or so, and some 660's, about 30 or forty of them. Several lowboy's with D9 pushcats on board were mixed in. These trucks all had Holloway's decal on them too. For those whom don't know Holloway, or remember his company, they were one of the larger dirt movers in America in the sixties and seventies. The old man was quite a guy. I met him and his son on a interstate job in Michigan where they had the dirt and my outfit had the base gravel and concrete paving contracts. Old man Holloway was just a regular guy, a real dirt stiff whom had come out of WWII and built up this company. He made most of his money building interstate and his company was based out of Michigan, but they worked from Canada to Florida, and in later years branched out clear to the Rockies. Unfortunately his son was killed when the corporate plane crashed around 1975 or so. The old man was retired by then, and heart-broken, he sold the company. But, back to the story. All these scrapers were headed for Cherry Creek Reservoir near Denver. They were coming out of Albuquerque off a dam they had just finished. It took them a week to road everything up to Colorado, every inch of it on I-25. I have never seen such a parade of Cat scrapers before or since to match this one. Naturally, I enquired about a operator job, but the operating engineers in Colorado were practically murdering each other to get on the payroll, and they weren't taking any new people into the union. Story of my life. Can you imagine sitting on one of those big ole things, throttle firewalled for 10 hours a day just lurching along the highway, cars and trucks whizzing by you with kids faces plastered to the windows. So it goes, more tales from the dirt!
... be careful if you are looking at the photo gallery (like I was with my 12 year old) 'cause the page title is a bit choice :beatsme
Another great story thanks Joe Sorry bout that Wulf. I never even thought about that. For anyone else looking with their kids the home page doesn't have a very nice title but once you click on a link and go past it, its all ok from there. .....last time I checked it was anyways.
X2 surfer-joe, you should write a book... seriously No big deal Brian I'm quick on the back button ... it nothing like the time he was researching for a project and he googled 'canadian beaver'
:falldownlaugh
I met some of those cb's, at a truck stop in Thunder Bay, Ontario years ago. They was real friendly, till they found out I was a Yank. Party over! Hoo Wha!!!....
I was going through some of my pictures and remembered CB's question about cushion hitches. Well first I tried putting it into paint and circling it....that took over an hour then didn't work :bash :bash So then I finally decided to crop, zoom in and post along with the original. Thankfully that worked, I don't think my laptop would have survived another failed attempt.
Well I appreciate all the effort Brian. :drinkup Yeah, the picture shows alot. So is that cylinder more like a shock that absorbs movement or like a strut that actually support the joint?
Thats a good question CB...not 100% sure on that one. I think Its like a strut..no a shock..ummm nope its a strut... I think I beter let someone else answer this one. :beatsme
http://www.wikipatents.com/3953040.html#technical The real technical explanation....trying to find one with pictures.....basically, the hydraulic cylinder you see is driven off of a pump in the transmission, which actually supports the hitch. This can be locked down solidly for loading and dragging fills, and also helps prevents "duck walking" on rough fills. Also useful when you need down pressure to help lift the tractor when you get stuck, don't ask.... The system also consists of 1 or 2 nitrogen charged accumulator cylinders, like a big gas shock, which absorbs impacts the tractor experiences. These are visible in the pic above, slightly to the right of the hitch cylinder. I know this is a basic explanation, maybe I better take the camera to work, and get some more pictures. This is how the Catwerpillar system is laid out, Terex's Loadrunner, and Komatsu, and some John Deere scrapers,and the Cat 615 paddelewheel, used a nitrogen/hydraulic suspended axle under the tractor to accomplish the same thing. I haven't run these to rell you how well they worked. Gotta be better than a stiff neck though..
Here's a picture of the hitch of a 631D, it's clean, not it's usual state! It shows the lower link of the hitch, and the lower end of the nitrogen accumulator cylinder. Still looking for some better illustrations.. alan627b
Found some pics of a 627B, same model as I run, but in much better condition...clean, and painted! What a concept.... More shots of the hitch area. link to all the pics in the ad. http://www.jjscheckel.com/listing.cfm?pid=80 641/651/657 sized machines are set up in a similar manner, but have 2 nitrogen cylinders, I assume because of the greater weight of the hitch parts. The old 3 axle Cat scrapers had something different, a pair of cylinders mounted paraell to the hitch point, which actually lifted the steer axle to shift the weight back onto the drive axle of the tractor. Maybe Surfer Joe can relate how these worked? The only 660 I ever saw, had these removed for reasons unknown. Maybe maintenance headaches? Thanks, Joe, for the stories. alan627b
Couple of 660/666 pics, so you know what I'm talking about....big iron! The 650 can be bought cheap in Madera, California...I saw this one in person a few years ago, it's in pretty good shape, the bowl seems to stretch forever. I couldn't get it into the back of my Dodge, but I think the Dodge would have fit in the back of it! Maybe I should have driven it home..... http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...4958291&guid=95E012EB70C944F7BBF2FF3750DF1C44
I knew I'd find it somewhere....Google is amazing. http://www.google.com/patents?id=mi...&as_miny_is=2007&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=2007
Right on Alan thats some great research work. Thanks
Yeah, thanks for the effort Alan. :drinkup So the answer is, a cushion hitch contains shocks and struts?
Mr Science I Ain't... Amazing what you can do on a rain day... Not a strut, it's (1) a hydraulic cylinder, and (2) a nitrogen filled accumulator, a gas pressurized tube with a piston, more like a huge gas shock. 1200 or 1400 psi, I think. Check out the link for the parts involved, it's pretty complex. I couldn't find the patent application for the accumulator assembly, and it's not shown in those tech diagrams. Although the scraper pics show it. Lots of valves, a pump that runs off the transmission, and the load sensing device is a rod, attached to a sensing valve on one end, and a little leaf spring on the other, that senses the load on the hitch and the height also, and adjusts the pressure the pump supplies to the hitch cylinder accordingly. Not bad for a guy who just runs the things.... Even the seats in some of these things run off the transmission, they have their own little hydraulic system, and a little nitrogen cylinder under the seat that cushions the bumps. I think the newer scrapers did away with this, and just use an air ride. If you,ve got a ton of time on your hands, check out some of the stuff Cat has patents for over the years... http://www.google.com/patents?as_dr...=caterpillar+tractor+company&lr=&sa=N&start=0 Lots of pages here... alan627b
I know this is my avatar but I wanted to post it anyways. Big enough to see good. Its my favorite picture from my scraper days...which I'm hoping are over now, but only will tell for sure. That's me in number 7
Here is a close up of the cylinder between the hinges and the other photo is of the accumulators. They are different than struts in that the gas in the strut is with the oil. The gas pressure raises the machine and the oil dampens the shocks. These are piston type accumulators. Nitrogen is put in the accumulator with the piston at the bottom to a specified pressure. The area under the piston is common to the bottom of the cylinder. Oil is pumped into the cylinder and accumulator until the linkage hits a neutral point. The gas will compress while the oil will not. You are basically sitting on a gas spring. There is no damping affect in these like there is in a shock absorber. Hope this helps.
Alan we aren't to far from each other. I ran 660's for Vanbuskirk construction out of Siuox City,Iowa on I29 between Neb. City and Glenwood,Iowa. The small lakes alone I29 you see was our borrowpits.Vanbuskirk was fairly good size company back then.Don't hear much about the old !!!!! companys i worked for. The weight transfer on the 660 was like if you was in the mud, you was suppose to be able to raise the front end off the ground, then steer with the brake lever.In the mud the fronts would just slide,you couldn't steer them. Been jackknifed a few times in the mud<where we shouldn't of had to be ,but doing as the boss said back then.Not a fun ride with four D9"s behind you and jackknifed up against the stop.Thats why the air aircleaners was always bent up on the ones we ran. Just a memory now tho.Thanks for reminding me of the good old days:drinkup .Denny
Nice picture.Nothing like being the leader of the "pack".Not much fun tho if somethings goes wrong when you in the middle.No where to run!!!!!!! i've seen that before. Have a good day.Rainy here today also!!!! :usa
Twin powered elevating Scrapers Hi New to the site and came accross your scraper thread. We actually have 2 Cat 639D's and 2 Wabco 252ft scrapers I can send pics soon. We work in wet conditions and find the extra power at the back wheels essential to travelling out of pits and through suspect ground. The Wabcos actually do a better job of unloading as the floor slides with an eject. On the Cats the Bowl rotates to tip which usually results in wet clay clogging up and up to a 1/4 of the bowl. I actually worked on a 627B 7 years ago in West Ausrtalia that had a set of chains fitted to it which also worked quite well. One of our 639D's is a converted 633 which was done in West Australia. I have heard they only made about 60 of the 639D's and about 50 are here in Australia. If anyone else has info on Twin powered elevating scrapers I would be keen to find out more.
Welcome to HEF Shad! :drinkup Yes, your pictures oughta be interesting. :thumbsup
Shad Great to have you here at HEF I woud like to hear more of your 639 stories and also comparing them to the Wabco One of the bigger local companies here in So California used to have a spread of 639's. They used them on a lot of sandy jobs where the single engine rigs would bog down all the time. I last seen them on a job a little over 10 years ago, and heard that they all got sold. There was a rumor at the time they left the country, so it may be some of them that are now down under. Hope to hear some more.
Paddle/Elevating Scraper I'm pretty new to this myself so I'm no expert. I have an IH paddle scraper. It does an excellent job in black dirt but not well at all in clay. I think it is mainly a landscape scraper. I'm building a pond on our ground and finally bought an old Cat 830MB with a 20 yard bowl. Haven't tried it yet but it looks like it will move the world!
Thanks Construct'O Those guys were a good team to work with. There was no real oficial leader, we were all really good operators. That sure makes a difference on how your day goes eh. I only had it go really wrong when I was in the middle. I was second in a line of 5 of us when the front scraper stopped dead half way through his cut. Took a few seconds for the rest of the train to stop. They jack knifed me and snapped my bail in a heartbeat. Scared the crap outa me lol
Great site! I just ran across this site and must say it is great. I need to get some scraper pics for you guys. We recently built a 621 pull scraper in house and are pulling it with a D8N pull tractor. I have a couple 621E's, 631C's, 631D's, 623F, TS-14C, and a 116 fiat. I recently demoed a new TS14G and it is a great machine. It has a cushion ride utilizing the hoist cylinders. It is powered by a pair of Cummins and is stout. Beau Renfroe
If you have some picture of the TS14G i would like to see one.The cummins sounds like a good update from the old GM ones. Do they crowd the dirt out now or are they still trying to use the lift crowd tailgate.What a joke those was!!!!!!:usa
no pics. They still use the same lift gate ejector.
My experience on scrapers is not nearly as extensive as these other guys, and is limited to 613 and 621 Cats. However... I've found that in clean soil conditions, even a 621 can self load to completely full if operated correctly. As a matter of fact, I've self loaded (no push) in clean clay faster than the pan next to me that was being pushed. The difference was the other pan had a rookie operator, and the dozer operator was a rook as well. You can self load these beasts, you just have to take a long shallow cut to do it. Won't happen in rocks though!!!
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Renfroe Grading! :drinkup
Thank you glad to be here.
i agree scrapers need their own space. if you got dirt to move you need a scraper, in my opinion the most versitile machine cat ever built,i love them.if cat would talk to me about it i would tell them to put the cab off of their new g models with all the controls, and put it on the 637series2E scraper, that would be the best scraer they ever built.
Hi 637slayer, I'm a fan of scrapers as well. Back in 1970s-80s I had WABCO 333FT (unreliable due to too much power?) and 252FT (excellent). Both were twin powered elevating scrapers, but could out-perform anything put against them at the time. Cat 623 and 633 were a poor attempt by Cat on elevators. The WABCO secret was the angle of the cutting edge and slope of elevators on both twin and single powered. Also had TS14s and would love to see a pic & specs of new TS14G if anyone has one...........Ray
Wabco? i considered myself pretty knowledgeable on scrapers but have only heard people talk about wabcos ide love to see pics of a twin paddle wheel. sounds like a monster, what is the 333ft? how long it is? how many yards of dirt?
WABCO 333FT was indeed the monster of its time. It carried 33yds & had V12 twin turobocharged GMs front & back (12V71t), giving over a thousand HP. It had 6speed allison trannies & could move like a sports-car, loaded or empty. Elevators were electric powered and steering etc was hydraulic. Earlier single powered models called a "B-pull", had electric steering. The 252 was a smaller version of the big twin with 8V71t GM front and back. Its earlier single power version was called "c-pull". They also made a baby 11yarder 4-71 GM called "D-pull".
Ray you said the steering was hydraulic. So it had a steering wheel not a switch like the earlier ones?
That's right Buckethead. Later wabcos had hydraulic steering with steering wheel and bowl lift and eject. I drove earlier ones that were fully electric & had ropes for all functions. They were great although service/greasing of the pulleys took a while. Electric steering was great with the switch between thumb and forefinger and your left palm draped over the panic-bar. Bowl controls were further along for your right hand which also used to change gears on a fuller crash gearbox. All travel for bowl had limit switches to prevent broken ropes & make them idiot-proof. Apart from regular greasing of the sheaves, the only thing that needed special attention was setting of the electric contacts for the steering. They had 300V DC which would burn a bad contact & I always used to check and set them myself. Safety first, even in those bad old days........C ya....Ray The screaming GMs and straight exhaust cats were considered just part of the job back then, and remember this was before earmuffs and sound supressed cabs!! And in case anyone is wondering, my hearing is still perfect.
Great! I disagree with great.They were usable and that was about it with the electric steer.Burnt the stator out the first month i ran one.Cost more then machine was worth back then and that was in the late 60's.They scraped it. Couldn't or wouldn't shift.It had a stop on the clutch when you pushed down it was suppose to stop the transmission so you could get it to shift.Good thing we had short hauls after all that gear grinding it stayed in first. The Jimmy engine was okay if you could keep their rpm's up.Impossible with straight shift transmission and no converter. As for the cable stops most didn't work and you could get the lips to wind up backwards,if not careful.Then they wouldn't close. I was never so glad to see the stator toasts itself.Went to an S18 Eculid it was just a small step over the Wabco. Finally made it to a Cat 621,i thought i was in heaven.Compared to the other two.:usa
i am glad to hear some one else say "lip" the apron is a term i piked up since i became a miner, so are they slobber bits or router bits. no matter how long i end up mining i will always run with my lip shut and crowd back when im empty. and i call them router bits.
Scrapers Have heard them also called cheek plates. I spent mant years towing cable operated scoops as we called them behind TD15c TD20 & TD25b, scoops being Vickers Onions 8/11 for the TD15 & CAT 435&463g behind the 25s back in NZ, also spent sometime on a IH 444 Payscraper, think it may have been the only one in NZ, a twin engine elevator scraper 22yds cap V800 @310hp in front & DT 466 in rear@185 hp could move the dirt, probably the only scraper Ive seen load it self going up a hill & get a full load with out a push.Thank the lord for hydraulics just ring the hose Dr to fix a hose , no more spraggy wire ropes to thread through the back of a scoop when you break a rope.
The best thing about electric steering was no wobble of the tractor on rough ground as the magnetic brake held it in line. The up-shift clutch brakes worked OK for me. Up-shifting was best when you were travelling straight and didn't have to alter course for the next 25yds or so to allow time for revs to build up. On earlier rigs without a clutch brake, I just crash-changed the gears without the clutch. Just a matter of matching ground speed to engine revs and feeling your way in. Never a grinding sound after a bit of practise. I have played on quite a few models of trucks and only ever used the clutch for takeoff. Limit switches were easily repaired/replaced when they were faulty. When I was a youngster I had the good fortune to assist an electrician in a complete rewire of a 222Wabco. He explained it all as he went which left me with a pretty good idea on the breed.
TS14G's, anyone? Here's a link to see them, enjoy! Be sure to save the site, machinerytrader is a gold mine for pictures. alan627b TS14G http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...x=Exact&GUID=A354D68C7C904446BABF85444C1C4328
any one know why they paint terexs green? so they can hide in the weeds when the cats come by. thats my favorite terex joke but with their new colors it dont work anymore.
Might still work up north in the winter though!
Somebody mention Wabco_LeTourneau's? Here's a big old monster I saw At National Hardware in Madera, CA while on vacation 2 years ago. Not sure of the model but it was a big old monster. Enjoy.
Looks like a LeTourneau B-pull. :drinkup
Buckethead, the server here is not letting me reply to your private message for some reason, please email me instead. [email protected]
Pretty sure that Buckethead got it right. It sure looks like an old B-Pull to me. Must be pretty old as the inlet manifolds look like cummins 6cyl to me. later ones had GMs. The seat shown in pic is a dead giveaway. They were an air cushion, with no moving parts but were the best of a bad lot in those stiff-neck days
here are some more pics to help you ID what it is..what an electricians nightmare! It did have a steering wheel though..might have to see if i can find my notes to tell for sure.
Last two.
Looks similar to the Cummins C150 or C180 in this Mack at Kiaser Steel's Eagle Mt. Mine in Desert Center, Ca.
Really intresting thread this one, Im quite new to the site but have been lurking for a while. I currently drive a few different scrapers all moving coal, so we self load and only use the Dozers (D8L and D9R which I also operate) when we are stuck! Currently we have 4 Terex TS40's which have a 32 cu yrd bowls, these are the best for coal handling due to the shape of the bowl and the ejector. The are just uncomfortable after a couple of hours! We also have 2 637 series2E and a 637E which have greedy boards fitted to the bowl so have a greater capacity, though off the top of my head I cant remember what it is. I think my favorite is the series 2, but all are good. Cheers Matt
Some of our scrapers. 621,631,613 I've ran all these.:drinkup
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums mattyjc! :drinkup
Scraper setup I build cranberry bogs in Oregon and I use a John Deere 762 Paddle Wheel scraper. There are bigger, faster, better machines, but I like the size and ride comfort of the John Deere. When we are loading sand, instead of putting my dozer in teh sandpit, I push the scraper with a 644B loader. That way I keep my tracks out of the sand and I'm able to give the scraper that little extra horsepower it needs to load out in soft sand.
Pushing scraper ? You are definetly using the wrong tool to push a scraper ! You will pay the price in a premature, worn out torque converter ! Big $$$$$$ to repair for what gain ???? A Local contractor used a Cat 966C to pull a sheepsfoot, Silt soils for compaction. Cost him a $40,000 repair . A loader not meant for that kind of work. The job repairs were analyzed after the fact. Wrong approach. Should of used a dozer built for the purpose. Maybe this will , might , help . :beatsme
Wrong Tool I would tend to agree with the "wrong tool for the job" comment, except for a few mitigating facts. First, this is a very inexpensive old loader with pretty cheap and available components. Second, the push isn't hard, it's more for traction than anything. We make short passes when loading out sand and the expense on an undercarriage far exceeds the cost of a a whole loader of this vintage. Thanks for the suggestions... I would tend to agree with observations if I hadn't been doing it for several years on a specialized type of job.
Job Conditions ? You still have to factor in the true job costs of having some one on the JD 644 pushing the scraper. Labor costs (Not Free) + machine costs ! If you continue, what about replacement cost of the (cheap)JD 644 ?? Got to think about that some day. Just some things you got to address . Best wishes in your endeavors .
My rusty, I mean trusty old John Deere paddle wheel. Not much to look at, but it's been a pretty dependable machine.
Heres a few pics of the 860 we have, as well as a few of the other rented ones we have used. I'll toss in some pull pans as well. Trbo 1. 860 brand new in 1970 2. 860 and 762 on road re-construction, with both TD-15C's 3. Hauling black dirt to cover borrow area
Here are a few more Trbo 1. hauling in fill for pond dam. 2.covering borrow area for lagoon with black dirt 3. old td's and a pull scraper
ts14 tandem three axle scraper http://discuss.ibdozing.com/discus/messages/7/3513.html?1163632125 Here is a site worth a look seeya
Sweet link! That old beast looks tough to run. I'd love to try one, but its rare to see anything but Cat power in scraper fleets around here.
Those are some good looking Deere scrapers there sure hate they quit building them. I ve run one since I was 14. What little I have run a 613 I d take the 762 any day on the comfort. I think the 613 has the hottest driverside panel and floor board around. Deere doesnt carry many part any more we have to aftermarket every thing Ballentine Chain has been really helpful. I also noticed that the hydrostaic pump for the elevator was the same as the hydrostatic drive on a 715 IHC combine. Dad bought one when he first started the private landfill for Belmont homes and we wore it out then the transmission went down when we were reclaiming the fill when they went out of the mobile home biz. Then Tiffins bought the site and we found a different year 762 with a weak motor and a bad chain for 10000 , but it had new tires. Our old one JD wanted 20000 to rebuild the trans and another company wanted 15000, sow we bought this one and traded chains and motors. The only times dad allows us to push is when we pick up our sawdust roads when they get soaked as the clay underneath is soggy. Didnt some of the later 862's come with a hydrostatic pusher axle. A friend that lives behind the landfill owns a chicken farm I trade earth work for his litter spreading to save us Fertilizer. We built a pad for his new barn and he had us and had a borrowed tractor and pan and he couldnt believe that The paddle wheel ground up the soil like it did. Made alot easier for his little dozer to spread. and it compacts alot better.
Does anyone have any knowledge what the difficulty of separating a Cat 830mb from a 18yrd dirt pan would be. I recently just bought one and have to get it shipped here in two pieces. Having never seen it I’m in the dark as to what it would take and if one person would be able to do it themselves or if it would take two people to get the job done. Any info would be appreciated.