Hey everyone, Been in the earth moving game for a few years but have always been lucky to work for moneys no object company's with the best of everything. Now I'm out on my own things are different. What I was wondering was how much of a difference is there between expensive and just normal hydro oil? I'm sick of paying $170 aud for 20L Drum, So I'm looking at getting a 202L drum. Some brands are in excess of $1500 a drum but then there's a few that Ive noticed on a local page for around the $600 to $900 mark. Now they are not know brands but is there that much of a difference? I'm using it the oil in a Cat multi terrain loader, Cat roller, Milling head and a level best grader. Before I jump into the cheap ones I just though Id check if the extra savings is worth it, or will cause more damage than what they are worth. Thanks, Daniel
A trick I've often found that works with hydraulic oils is to look at the OEM manufacturer's data sheet (you should be able to find it on the internet somewhere) for their branded oil and see what external test standards it meets. These are often Vickers (35VQ25 is a common one) or Dennison tests and there may well be others as well. Then in any oil you are thinknig of buying look for it meeting the same test standards as the OEM oil. That way you can compare 2 oils directly because you know they meet the same standard. IMHO a good oil (& filters) is the cheapest insurance policy you can ever buy for your equipment and if you buy the cheapest oil from Joe Blow's Gas & Groceries it usually ends in tears.
what is in a name? Some brand name oils rebadge their oil so they can keep some $$$ coming in. They know that someone will always buy "name brand" but they also know they need to feed the business. Much like certain equipment manufacturers will sell a knock off, it keeps the money rolling. As Nige wrote, manufacturer's data sheet should give the info you need, plus you should be able to find out what your particular machine/application needs. This topic is a tough one, much like Ford vs Chevy, type of tire/track to use etc... you'll get a 100 different opinions. IMO use the proper oil for the machine/application and leave the name brand for the Kardashians.
I tend to buy one of two ways...experience and API spec. If the spec sheet shows that it meets criteria, as in viscosity and application (CC/CD/CF series for diesel oils or the SG/SN series for gasoline) and sometimes the equipment manufactures's spec, then on reputation. No one screws up by buying Mobil 1 for a light truck engine or Rotella for a diesel application. It is the generic stuff sold by the farm COOPs and the Farm and Ranch stores (TSC and the like) that I usually use for keep in stock, with good results for the last 30 years. Then there is the lower tier stuff sold at grocery and convenience stores. One store had fake Quaker State oil labeled as Quaker Maid, or the Odd Lots/Big Lots chain selling off spec non-detergent mineral as "misible" with all leading brands. Beware of that stuff!
Beware of "recommended for use in" or "recommended for the following specifications" you'll see those on the back of the cheaper grades of hydraulic/transmission fluids. That's not claiming it meets those specs, just "name dropping", "recommended for experienced mechanics like Nige " On the other hand, I recently saw the very cheapest bucket says "not recommended for modern...", you better believe it when they say that. This might be a US thing only?
Have you priced oil from your Cat dealer down there Daniel? I've always found our dealer to be very competitive with other quality brands. I just did a quick check on Hydo Advanced and they are quoting $1063 inc. tax, for 205 L They also offer an additional !5% off if you purchase oil and filters on the same invoice. Best part is you can sleep easy at night. Cheers, Greg
That's 15% off....
Thanks for the reply's and advice. I'm yet to price fluid from cat but I will seeing as I need a service in the next 200hrs. I feel like I should get genuine oil but if it has the same properties as the cheaper one it shouldn't matter. This is the specs from what Ive been told to get - Its a Valvoline Hydratrans http://www.valvoline.com.au/explore...actor-oil/valvoline-farmplus-hydratrans-fluid SAE Viscosity Grade 10W30, 80W Viscosity @ 100 °C, mm2/s, ASTM D445 9.7 Viscosity @ 40 °C, mm2/s, ASTM D445 60.7 Viscosity Index, ASTM D2270 143 Pour Point, °C, ASTM D5950 -24 Density @ 15.0°C, kg/L, ASTM D4052 0.861 This is the other one I was looking at- Pure Fluid Power Pty Ltd http://purefluidpower.com.au/products/pure-lubricants/ Viscosity ( Typical cSt @ 40oC) - 68 Viscosity ( Typical cSt @ 100oC) - 8.8 Standards Meets or exceeds the following: Eaton Brochure 694 for 35VQ25A (formerly Vickers 1-286-S, M-2950-S.) DIN 51524, Part 2 (HLP) & Part 3 (HVLP). Denison HF-1, HF-2, HF-0. Commercial Hydraulics except those with silver bearing surfaces. General Motors LS -2. AFNOR NF E 48-603 HM and HV Racine variable volume vane pumps. Cincinnati Milacron P.68, P.69, P.70.
You DO NOT have to buy oil from the OEM unless it is priced competitively with other fluids elsewhere. There are plenty of recognised brands out there that are just as good and maybe cheaper. Queenslander makes a good point that OEM dealers often offer deals on fluids that makes their fluids just as cheap or even cheaper than the competition. If that's the case it's well worth buying OEM fluid at the same time as the filters. The only things that jump out and hits me are this: - The Valvoline is a multigrade. Personally in your climate I would have thought that was unnecessary and I'm not sure if the Manual even recommends multigrades in the hydraulic system. The Pure Fluid Power oil viscosity 8.8cSt @ 100C is a bit on the high side. What ISO rating is it, 46 or 68..?
They are both ISO 68. I think they recommended that type of fluid as they didn't know what else to give me, It is a high flow machine so maybe that thought could have some bearing on the temps even though I believe your talking about the general air temp. Ill ring Cat on Monday to see what they have to say but I agree I wont be jumping to quickly into them supplying oil to me.
I was referring to ambient (gneral air) temp, not system operating temperatures. If I'm reading the weather data correctly for your location the ambient temperatures range from a minimum around freezing in winter to mid/high 20s as a maximum in summer. An ISO68 (SAE30) oil would be recommended for an ambient temperature range of 0 to 50C, an ISO32 (SAE 10W) oil would be recommended for a range of -20 to +40C. So of the two possible alternatives I'd go for an ISO32/SAE10W oil in hydraulic systems. There is actually a recommendation of a 10W/30 multigrade for use in hydraulic systems but it's a multigrade engine oil, not a "do it all" farm product as the Valvoline Farm Plus Hydtrans fluid appears to be. Farmers love this stuff, it means they don't have to think when adding oil to their machines ....... If it was me I'd go for the SAE10W/ISO32 oil under those circumstances.
There could be a difference in oil types and additive packages. You get what you pay for. The cheap stuff could be a mixture of many different oils when lines are cleaned out from bulk oil deliveries, i.e. motor, hydraulic oil and transmission fluid. Once ran a 5 gallon bucket of brand x hydraulic fluid through an offline filter and you could easily see the difference in the color / cleanliness. Nothing like a factory sealed drum versus one sealed by a local.
Nige, I have a local distributor giving a decent deal on a 55 of Mobilfluid 404, 10 bucks a gallon with free delivery and a $10 charge on the barrel. It does seem to meet the specs for J20C as well as kubota udt, Although a full change on the Deere works out to about 50 gallons for axles/trans/hyd,
I use an Ace Hardware ISO 32 anybody think it's any good?
Read my comment a few posts above referring to buying fluids at Joe Blow's Gas & Groceries......
I'm thinking current spec Deere Hygard is what you should be using in the Deere machine, I kinda doubt the 404 meets that spec but I didn't look it up.
I had also been looking for an alternative to the dealer oil for my recently purchased John Deere/Hitachi trackhoe. It calls for oil meeting JD J20 A,B,C or D. HyGard or Hitachi oil is around $75 a bucket but my local Atwood's has Rotella HD which meets the J20C spec for $55 a bucket. Correct me Nige or others if I assume to much from the brand, but I trust it is up to snuff being a Shell and Rotella product.
I'm not a fan of Shell lubricants TBH, but don't let that stop you if it meets the spec you require. At least it's a step up from Joe Blow's.......
I'd guess Ace's is a couple steps up from Joe Blow's. Nige probably isn't familiar with Ace. ISO 32 is a viscosity rating though, right? not a spec for the grade of oil that you want to match. What else is on the label and what's it for...
ISO 32 is a viscosity, equivalent to SAE 10W. see post #2 on Page 1 for specifications.
That's one of the first distinctions I draw....whether it uses the language "recommended for" (which means nothing) or "meets specifications for" which actually means something. Napa, TSC and other farm supply and auto parts stores are famous for selling "recommended for" oils. You see this a lot in farm tractor oils.
Multigrade oils have more viscosity improvers in them which break down leaving you with a little thinner oil. There is usually an initial drop as the oil breaks-in then a slow decline over time. If someone really needs the cold weather protection it may be worth it. The other alternative is full synthetic. In the end what multiviscosity and synthetic give you is a high viscosity index. The higher the VI the less the oil changes viscosity with temperature, which is a good thing. It also makes a quick gauge of an oil's worth because higher VI base stock costs more to make. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28956/lubricant-viscosity-index The other thing I'll throw in is ALWAYS filter your oil before you put it in the machine. A dirty little secret of the oil world is that drums are not clean. In one case I was filling with high end Mobil hydraulic oil out of brand new barrels and I could see hundreds of particles on the bottom with a poor flashlight - convinced me and I've seen it several times since. From what I've heard CAT and Deere are making their dealers install proper filtration after their storage tanks. ISZ
Quart jugs and 5 gallon pails don't get refilled so therefore have less likelihood of contamination. In my experience, much contamination occurs getting oil from the drum to the engine using dirty funnels and containers, especially if employees aren't concientious. Another source of contamination is storing drums vertically outdoors letting rainwater work it's way in. Personally, I think the cost savings of buying in drums is not justified unless you're equipped to store them indoors and pump them in engines without adding dust, grit and water.
For me, I always ask other drivers who are experienced driving all kinds of heavy equipments.
Recommended for: Allison C-2,C-3 and C-4 Caterpillar TO-2 Clark Transmissions Oliver Type 55 Renk 874 A/B Allis Chambers PF821,272843 Internationl Harvester B-6 Deutz-Allis Power Fluid 821 XL Sunstrand Hydrualic- Transmission Fluid Hesston-Fiat AF87 White Farm Q1722,Q1766,Q1826- Type 55 J.I. Case JIC-143, TFD JOIC-144,TCH JIC-185, MS-1206, 1207 and 1230 Ford New Holland M2C134-D, M2C53-A,M2C41-B,M2C-159C Massey Ferguson M-1127A/B,129A M-1110, M-1141, Pematan John Deere J-20A/C, Type303, Quatrol J21A,J20C,J148/C J.I. Case/International Harvester MS-1207,MS1210 This is the Ace Hyd oil info I could get. Its hard to say who manufactures it for them You would think they wouldn't sell junk?
Keywords there are "recommended for" higher quality oil will say "meets or exceeds the following specs" or warranty approved for such and such. By the way, ace hardware makes lots of money selling lots of junk!!
Well I don't want to kick a dead horse but this is the latest info on Ace Hyd Oil I could find I just don't know what the numbers mean specifically 40.00$ vs 90.00$ is a lot of $! "Meets or exceeds Cincinnati Machine (formerly Cincinnati Milacron) P-68, P69, P-70 Denison HF-O,HF-2 U.S.Steel 126,127, 136 Vickers M-2950-SW,I-286-S This is the Ace Hyd oil I bought/buy by the 5 gallon pails, Just wondering what it is?
I don't know what any of those are off hand. What's it for? what kind of system and machine is it going in?
Now we're geting somewhere.... Denison HF-0 & HF-2 specifications, along with Vickers M-2950, are some of the many "test house" specifications which all half-decent hydraulic oils will meet. Another is the (Eaton) Vickers 35VQ25 vane pump test. See here for more info...... http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/753/hydraulic-fluids-operating I still can't understand why people go cheap on oils when in truth the difference in price between cheap and top quality oil is the best & cheapest insurance policy a machine owner can buy...
Well heres my story, Where I work we use about 30 to 40 500lb welding wire rolls a year. well we got a better deal on some other brand of wire so our Co. switched. Then 99% of the welders started belly aching "the burn back" "use more tips" To much spatter" "this wire is ####" and many other unprintable words. WELL the boss says OK we are going to test it. They along with welders welding lab and the boss who learned how to weld, did some tests spatter, tip usage, weld appearance etc etc and low and behold the biggest bellyacher a few days after, I ask so what did you find out about the bad wire? Oh he said there um well there really isn't any difference, the burn backs pretty good spatter not bad ..umm pretty good wire we found out! SOOOOooo John Deere doesn't refine their own Hyd Oil, Caterpiller doesn't refine their own Hyd Oil, They all get it from some where I bet the same place! How many refinerys are there in the world that make Hyd oil? Not that many as far as I can figure. I bet the Hyd oil Cat JD NH and who ever "make a deal" mark up the price and we like like a herd of cattle say Well Cat oked it so I'll pay double the price No Problem! I don't want to hurt my equip but I don't want to get took either That's my story and I'm stickin to it LOL
I have been told to stay well clear of Valvoline hydraulic oils. Aparently it's so bad that it loses it's viscosity and lubricating quality's when it gets hot. Danfoss will no longer honour any warranty on their pumps or motors if it's found , I have been told some sad tales of companys going bust because of oil failing. Goes to show 'good'and "cheap" don't belong in the same sentence.
Sorry to cross post, but this look like OK hydraulic fluid to use in a large excavator? https://www.amazon.com/Sinopec-Hydr...rd_wg=lilwz&psc=1&refRID=F0N1GS9PJHADV1RK23ZF Or this: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-all-season-hydraulic-oil-iso-46-5-gal
Hydraulic manufacturers seldom if ever honor any warranty anyway, it's too easy to blame some other factor for failures. I have had factory reps admit to as much when put on the spot. Distributors will sometimes kick in though if the failure is obviously due to a defect.
NO on the Tractor Supply House stuff, the Sinopec would probably be okay, at least it's an AW (Anti-Wear) rated oil.
lantraxco I do not work for Tractor Supply but dumb founded on not using Tractor Supply Traveler oil ... It meets or exceeds manufacture oil recommendations for varous tractor and hydraulics companies .. My question is why would you not use the Tractor Supply oil if it meets expectations of it's use? I've been using it in my hydraulic for tractors, skid loader and case dozer. I will say that I do hit it with a touch of dextron transmission oil.
The difference is who is making the claim? Ace hardware has been mentioned, I'm not associated with Ace but I have enough knowledge of their products and business to trust a claim by Ace much more than TSC, just my opinion. Nige and/or others have mentioned "major oil companies", to us Americans that means an oil distributor with a name that you recognize as an international oil company. Possibly including Texaco(venezuela) and/or Sinopec(china). The other question is what is being claimed, "recommended for use where xyz is specified" means it doesn't "meet xyz specification".
I just went by the information at the link posted, there are no specifications I could see other than generalities. The lack of "AW" which is supposed to mean "Anti Wear" and the disclaimer not to use this oil in gear or brake applications tells me it in fact does not have the needed anti wear additives of an AW 46 oil. YMMV, I am willing to be corrected but I wouldn't put in anything that wasn't a simple gear pump setup.
Tractor Supply Super Trac 303 Tractor Hydraulic Fluid has been field tested and suitable as a replacement for the following OEMs...basically every OEM. Fine print on rear label: 303 Tractor Hydraulic Fluid has NOT been recommended by any OEM for use in equipment later than 1974!!! For equipment built after 1974 requiring 'multi-functional fluid', use Super S Premium. Front label claims Anti-Wear Properties, Brake Chatter, blah, blah...
Cool!! ... I'm definitely learning more about the hydraulic fluids for our equipment .... I have been using the TS Super S in my machinery... May start switching over to Orscheln's Universal Heavy Duty Hydraulic & Transmission Fluid 5 gallon. Multi-viscosity, all-season Universal Heavy Duty transmission/hydraulic fluid manufactured to meet or exceed OEM requirements for farm, logging and construction equipment. Outstanding wear resistance, anti-chatter performance, oxidation, resistance, water separation characteristics and resistance to foaming. Outstanding flow at low temperatures and resists thinning at high temperatures. OEM approved additive system for machinery where transmissions, hydraulics, wet brakes, power steering and final drives all utilize a common fluid.
StanRUS did show it in his post "303 Tractor Hydraulic Fluid has NOT been recommended by any OEM for use in equipment later than 1974!!!" YUP all of mine are before then ..LOL! .... Can't afford the newer stuff so I guess I'm safe ...LOL! (Have Wife - nag nag nag when I want to buy something like a tractor...)
Yup, "Field tested and suitable" but then so am I and Johnnie Walker, though neither will do you much good as a gear lubricant. As Nige and others have pointed out "Meets or exceeds" is the phrase you're looking for, prior to the name of your machine's OEM and pertinent specification. Hey, to all interested parties: it's your machine, run what you want, but TANSTAAFL still applies even though Heinlein is dead.
FIELD TESTED AND SUITABLE by Smitty's http://www.smittysinc.net/media-library/print-media/ Tractor Supply's source for Super S & Super Trac 303! Field tested and suitable means nothing, sales hype! TESTED and MEETS or EXCEEDS example Cat FD-1 / Final Drive and Axle Fluid Requirements https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10513032
It's not just the year of the equipment, if you're running anything with wet brakes or clutches from BEFORE 74, then you're on borrowed time, and all the more reason to use a proper lube rather than what they THOUGHT was good enough at the time (didn't know any better). If your tractors model is a letter only, or a single number and single letter, I think then you're fine with 303 fluid
Anybody ever hear of how much water will collect in the hydraulic oil through condensation or temp changes in the various brands? Is it the same for all Hyd oils in general?
Varies with the additive package, but about .5% seems to be a good rough figure for saturation. Keep in mind the bottom of the hydraulic tank can have free water up to gallons if it's never drained off, this can get sucked up and travel the system as slugs or droplets of water if you will that may do all sorts of damage as it encounters high pressures and pressure drops.
I paid a lot of money for my equipment. Lubrication is not something I will not skimp on. I only use Premium SyntheticLlubricants in every part of my equipment. You may say it's overkill but to this day, I have not had any lubricant related failures. I also extend change intervals and only change fluids based on used oil analysis recommendations. Yes it is expensive at the initial purchase but it pays for itself in lower operating costs, better fuel economy, and less down time. Equipment even runs cooler. If you pay for cheap oil, that's what you get. It may meet the manufacturers specs., but for how long? Just my 2 cents.
I love the Great debates.. Toyota vs Landrover, Cat vs Volvo, Samsung vs iPhone.. - and oil is one of them. I've recently learnt a great deal about oils, but the bottom line is as long as it meets the required specs and tests, then one of the best ways is to do your own oil sampling. takes a while. but if you are worried about the quality of your new oil, its the way to go. OEM's offer it, WEARCHECK is awesome too. that is the only surefire way to give yourself a bit of clarity. At my last job, the guys on our fllagship site went through a 9 month intensive program to determine the best service interval- what oils to use, when to change it, which brand to use and what filters to change. we used CAT oils for the machines on warranty, and it was expensive, but worth it. The point is, you can debate till the cows come home, finding the right alternative oil isn't easy, everyone has an opinion on what brand they like. we used Fuchs, it worked, met the spec, wasn't that much cheaper than other generic brands, but was on account. so it worked for us. As nigel said in the beginning;
And also, its a LOT easier getting a warranty - if you're in that frame of mind. - when you're using the OEM oil. ALOT.. thats in my opinion
As said before, The OEM & dealers know they're competing with Brand X, so their price is limited in Lube & Filters. I just purchased a 5 gallon bucket of Deere Hy-gard for $63. Walmart priced their Supertech HD tractor & transmission oil at $45 / 5 gallon pail(" recommended " for Deere J20c) I wonder by who ? For the extra money I know the Hy-gard meets the J20c requirements. Besides... I don't want to present a Walmart receipt to the IRS when defending maintenance costs.