Do any of you lads do basic hourly hire where one of your customers call you for a job the next day and you just turn up, sight unseen and start working. $X / hour and say a float charge. This has been my life in this industry and I've found it terrible. I'm a tight access specialist and there's only a fraction of the work available that there is for the bigger machines. Excavator is 1.8 tonne and bobcat is the smallest you can get (Bobcat 463). Here in Australia it goes like this: a customer books you for tomorrow, then you get 3 more calls for people that want you tomorrow and no other day is any good so you lose all 3. You get a call later in the afternoon to say the job's not going ahead tomorrow, and tomorrow you're out of work and the other jobs have gone. There's no deposits or cancellation fees, and the customer seems to think the operator shouldn't be p....d off because there were circumstances beyond their (the customer) control. I personally don't give a toss about the reason why, and it seems to be utterly backwards that someone can reserve your business for a day then cancel you without consequence. I know for a fact plenty customers book a machine "just in case" they'll need it. Now it gets worse. The job MAY be more than one day. So on the first day of the job another customers calls you for tomorrow and you say you aren't certain if you're available, this job could go into a second day. So they tell me that's no good, they need a definite booking, which of course I can't give them. So I lose that opportunity. Anyway the job ends up being finished on the first day and tomorrow I'm out of work. Again a very backwards system where customers effectively retain you for one or more days, but are completely gobsmacked if you mention a charge (like a retaining fee) if they end up not needing you. Oh I'm not finished yet. This industry gets more backwards (business wise). You are booked for one day so you book another customer in for the following day. For whatever reason the job on the first day doesn't get finished. Here the general practise is if the job is not finished you simply call tomorrows customer and tell them now you can't make it, and you could be telling them this well into the afternoon. Then they blame you because they booked you and they feel you misled them, I've lost several good customers like this. It's crazy, the present customer expects you to cancel your next customer if the job isn't finished but when the shoe's on the other foot they go mad at you when you cancel them for the very same reason. There's been weeks where 5 days were available yet I only got 2 of them because of the above. It seems a lot better for the guys with the larger machines (when I say larger I'm talking 3.5 tonne & up), they seem to get jobs easier at short notice or they have customers they can call and just say, "Hey, just found out I can do that job tomorrow for you". Small tight access machines on the other hand seem to be a necessary evil only to be used when a "normal" sized machine can't get in. They take 3 times as long to do the same job. As a result it's difficult to get repeat customers, whereas many of the bigger machines seem to work for just a few clients and they have regular work. Some guys do well in excavation (which really is a broad term) and others like me are buried at the bottom of the dung pile eating crap. What world do you guys live in ? quoted jobs, contracts, hirely hire like above, etc.
It sounds like you need to start training your customers. If you make a commitment to do a job, they better be committed to paying for your troubles if they call you the night before and cancel. The ones the book you "just in case" are the customers that you need to drop. Actually, those are the customers that deserve to have their driveways used as landfills.
Yes, I do hourly work occasionally. I tend to be more profitable with bid work. Your issue is more of customer relations, you get out of a customer what you put in. A customer that pays cash when I'm chaining up to leave moves up the priority ladder, one that sends a check a month later and it bounces goes to the bottom. Likewise with bookings if you booked me last week for tomorrow and you cancel the nght before, don't expect me to be very friendly next time you need me in a pinch. I will give you this, the micro excavation nitche is the most profitable in all of excavation. Why, because labor / operator wages is the largest factor in the hourly rate. When your running a little 2k pound mini all day at 50 an hr, at the end of the day its 385 in your pocket after paying fuel. Run a large say 20 ton model, make 125 an hr, burn 8x as much fuel.
Hi Joispoi, I've tried that and the only ones who accept that are domestic one-off customers. They don't know the industry and because it's a fair demand they generally agree. As for builders, landscapers, concreters, etc, etc, they would dump me instantly and call another operator and I'd never hear from them again. Also the plant hire agencies have it all wrapped up here. So many customers just make one call to a plant hire agency and that's it. I do quite a bit with them and if I was to start being "awkward" they'd either take me off the books or at least I'd be the last one they'd call. Believe me there's a lot of customers I'd like to drop, but when a full working week is a rarity to start off with, it's not an option I have.
Hi Stumpjumper83, I've always gave my best service and that's why the few repeat customers I have always get me back. I've literally ran jobs for customers, controlling levels, layout, slopes, etc, etc. I've bust my guts getting out of the machine and doing manual work with the labourers all day long. I've been left alone on jobs dealing with concrete breaking and removal (plenty manual work too). I could go on and on. Many other operators and even the agencies themselves are surprised at what I do, but it makes no difference. In general the customer doesn't give a toss. I very rarely get out of a customer what I put in, I think it's just too easy for them to make a call and get another "machine". The plant hires have called me quite a few times telling me the customer I worked for before has requested me for tomorrow. But if I'm already booked do they wait, never, they just grab another "machine". You are right about the micro niche being the most profitable. It would be great if the work was regular, which it is not. I've came across quite a few operators who moved away from the micro niche side of things for various reasons: lack of work (negates the higher profit per hour), lots of domestic back yard quoting for crappy little jobs that will just last a few hours anyway, tight awkward jobs in back yards next to nice rendered walls, gas meters, etc. I could go on and on but believe me, profit per hour is only a small part of the equation. I've never found an answer to this problem. It seems it's just supply and demand and there's too much supply for the available work. Lot's of tradies are also buying there own micro diggers (esp. the Chinese ones, real cheap) on aluminium trailers and towing them with there vehicle.
I disagree about micro excavation being the most profitable. I have a 1.5 tonner right now and there are days where I make good money- sometimes more than what I made per day with my old 30 ton hoe. However, with work being rather inconsitant, the monthly average is lower. There are too many scabbers in the business, guys on unemployment benefits who are all too happy to work for cash, etc. $50 per hour on a 1.5 ton is a good rate, but there are guys that will work an 8 hr day for $250 with a 2.5 ton machine....fuel included. It's tough to compete with the fly-by-nighters.
Hi Joispoi, that's exactly right. Put that together with all the tool hire places that hire out the 1.5 tonners. It amazes me how so many domestic people are adamant they can do it themselves and save money. I'm sure many look at us operators as dumb arses who just sit there and pull levers, and it can be picked up in a few hours. This industry is one where the machines are like toys for men. I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard blokes talking about getting their operator ticket and buying a little digger or bobcat to start an excavation business. The other problem I can't seem to get away from is customers demands to book you in at 7 am on a certain day but they don't want to pay the minimum hire rate. I tell them I'll reduce the min. hire rate (number of hours) by quite a bit if I can turn up and do the job as a fill in, at a time that suits me, but most of the time that's no good and they want me booked (reserved) in the morning for a crappy 2 or 3 hours work. Like I just have a string of little jobs I can pop off too after theirs to fill up my day. I try explaining that if I book myself in for them for next to nothing, I can easily miss out on a normal job and it's just not worth it. Doesn't make any difference though so I just let them go. I really don't know how anyone can get anywhere with small machines only. The last four years I've been setting myself up with a little engineering shop. The plan was to make all sorts of attachment ideas for my machines and do quoted work where the attachments would give me much increased throughput. The industry has gone extremely dead now though so it's either see if I can pick up some income with my little engineering shop or start sending the resume out. While on that subject Joispoi, have you ever craved certain attachments for your 1.5 tonner. I've been wondering about making what isn't available for the small machines, ripper buckets, tilt buckets, etc. I'm playing about with my 3D cad at the moment designing a ripper bucket like leading edge attachments "Dig N Rip" bucket, I could have used one of those a hundred times in the past, as well as tilt bucket.
Hi mancavedweller, Sounds like you think a lot like I do. I'm still in the process of building my workshop (which with all the other projects to do around the house, it may be a lengthy process at that). I picked up a lathe last year and I still haven't set it up yet - it hurt when I went to a nearby machine shop last week to have some pins made up for me. I just ordered the steel to make a hydraulic thumb. I'll be needing an auger for an upcoming fence job and I've been thinking about a tilt bucket since before I bought the machine. I have a dual plane laser and I mount the receptor directly to the stick -this is a huge time saver on the sewer connection and grading jobs. As for a ripper bucket, I did a 150' long sewer connection last week where it would have come in handy. I was using a 20cm bucket with 2 teeth. I hit a vein of hard clay (in bone dry conditions) that pretty much stopped the job. The walls of the trench had a shine to them and the bottom of the cut was perfectly shaped in the form of the outline of the bucket's cutting edge. I stole one of the teeth off my 60cm digging bucket and added a middle tooth to the little bucket and progress resumed. I think it would be enough to add an extra long tooth to a bucket and you'd have good combination for ripping and spoil clearing. The 1.5 ton niche is a tough market. The rental rates are down to $90 per day for a 1.5 tonner in my area. The rental yards get $30 a day for the trailer or they charge $60 each way for delivery and pickup. The lowest I go is a half day rate. If they don't think it's worth it, let do it by hand or find someone else. I don't need to leave the house to not make money (one broken hose on a 1 hr job means that you're paying to go to work).
You can stay home and go broke ! Its cheaper . Sorry guys , had to say it. :stirthepot
LOL You guys are dead right about it making more sense to go broke sitting on your arse at home than to do it while working for peanuts. And yes, the beloved breakdown issue. The wonderful tight access game gets you in all sorts of places where you don't want to break down. A hose is a luxury (if it's not a complete impossiblity to get to as is often the case with these crappy tight access machines). I once made my way into a completely enclosed back garden, via a 1m wide decking running down the side length of the house. One of my track motors popped and I thought I was going to have to pay a large crane to lift me right over the top of the house. Managed to drive back down the side of the house with one track motor (and a few tricks) and even got the digger back on the trailer. I stripped the track motor down and it was the male/female spline connection between the motor and the sun gears. $3.3K each for a track drive from Cat (the other would have needed replacing too) and as usual not in stock, ex USA (plus as usual they NEVER sell internal parts, only complete pumps and motors). Found a UK supplier of track motor parts and $700 later I had the parts to do both track drives. If I didn't find him though I would have been out of business, I mean $6600 for a repair. You do sound a bit like me Joispoi. Four years ago after my existing digger loan was paid the bank threw another loan at me, no questions asked. Said if I wanted more I'd have to show them financial figures (one look at them and they'd have retracted the no questions asked loan LOL). The amount wasn't enough to get something serious so instead I used it for a workshop equipment loan. My arsenal of weapons so far is: CNC plasma cutting table (home built, not bought), about 8' x 5' cutting area, with a Hypertherm 1250 plasma and Duramax machine torch. The Hypertherm specs say it will cut 1" but talking on CNC forums I may have to use oxy/fuel from 1" and up. 3D solid modelling cad software (Alibre Design) Artisting cad software (CorelDraw X5) Big lathe Big Bridgeport style mill Pedestal drill Bandsaw Hydraulic press 330 mig Arc / tig welder (only basic scratch start) Parts washer 2T engine crane I've just built a rigid thumb (most of my customers don't even know what it is, have to explain it to them !), it's great drawing it in 3D solid modelling software and rotating it in the software to see if you've stuffed up on the design and it will hit another part of the machine. I've got bucketloads of ideas (some new and unique) but prototyping and testing is the first thing and now here I am all tooled up and wondering if I have to send the resume out. Thankyou dear recession. I was looking in the attachment part of the forum before and tilt-buckets and tilt rotators seem to get a bit of attention, and now you've mentioned them too. Might have a look into making them for the little machines. What you are saying about the ripper on a bucket is quite interesting and has got me reconsidering the design of my ripper bucket. I got five ripper teeth under the bucket but a side view in the cad software tells me that as soon as one tooth sinks in just a bit, one or two of the other teeth are contacting the earth too. That to me kind of negates the design principle where the weight of the machine is sequencially applied to each tooth as the bucket is rotated. I might leave out the 2nd and 4th tooth initially and see if that works good. I can easily add them later if necessary. But I definitely feel a centre and two edge ripper teeth would be good. I often done the alternating between ripper hook and bucket but I've found that's a pain in really hard ground. The ripper hook can't get to the edge of the trench and when I stick the bucket back on I'm still scratching a heck of a lot to get to the depth the ripper hook did. The multi-ripper hook that Leading Edge Attachments do would be good if someones happy to do the ripper + bucket method but ideally you'd want one for each bucket width, rathing than having one narrower one and using side pressure to get the trench width. I'm guessing you might have used a thumb before but if you haven't you're going to love it, brings the blood pressure down when handling things.
Your mancave is much better equipped than mine! Mine's closer to a cave than to what you've described. Which software are you using, btw? Instead of a complete ripper bucket re-design, putting 3 different length teeth would do the trick. With a steeper digging angle, the longest tooth will make contact first. With a shallower angle the shortest tooth will make contact (after the longer teeth have done their work).
Hi Joispoi, The first Software is CorelDraw X5. That's more for artistic type of work, I can trace drawings, shapes, etc, do repeating patterns, create from scratch. You can take a straight line, convert it to a curve an quickly bend it as you please. It's also good for manually nesting parts for the plasma table and outputting as a single DXF file. The other one is Alibre Design. You may have heard of Solidworks, well this is like a more basic version of that. I would also add that I find it a bit buggy at times. The most expensive version (which I don't have) is about $2K, then there's $200/year maintenance for telephone support and free upgrades. Ironically or "ripoffically", however you view it, the maintenance support is not to ask for help on how to use the software, it is for when the software doesn't work as it is supposed to ! So far I've paid the initial purchase price of $200 then another $400 in maintenance purely for getting upgrades, $200 for training DVDs and $100 in books. Wow I've just surprised myself, it all starts adding up. For basic 2D work I've also got the free programs Draftsight and SolidEdge 2D Drafting on all computers (only got a license for one computer with Alibre). I just want to keep my usual digging buckets as they are, that's why I'm redesigning a new one for the ripper bucket. Actually there is another reason, I don't want to increase the pivot pin to tooth distance by adding on to the existing bucket. In the cad I just draw an arc the same radius as the pin to tooth distance on the digging bucket I now have then I design the ripper bucket so the ripper teeth are within this radius. Also because this makes the bucket smaller, I'm experimenting with an unusual bucket design where the bucket follows the arc as much as possible to give it more rear belly depth in an attempt to get some volume back. Shouldn't have problems with dirt compacting in there because if it's hard ground I'm digging that's always granular when it comes out. Saying all that the way things are going I'll be working for someone soon. Haven't had work for a week (not long ago nothing for 3 weeks straight) and yesterday got a 2 day job and the lights on my towing vehicle stuffed up, so couldn't take the job. Hey there's another issue with hourly hire, operating around others schedules and a different day hardly ever being OK. It's that day or no day and half the time they all want you on the same day, and you're out of work after that day.