I almost got caught by a DECEIVING ad in Machinery Trader The ad says Case 450 Dozer But the Dozer has a decal showing 450C ( Joke or Scam ) I didn't realize this until the cashiers check was sent. ( and now canceled ) The guy at Swiderski Power Inc was acting like he didn't know anything about the year of the machine and I found out later he knew about the Fake 450C on the Dozer . After taking with Machinery Trader.... They say they did nothing LEGALLY wrong... I told them they need to write in the ad "It is NOT a "C" model... Just a fake decal I told them I need to get better decals for my 580K that adds 10 years to their live . Just giving out the word... I'm sure there are many more like it. . Still looking for a 450C ... But I need to save up a few thousand more... . Gotta Fly... JAM
I don't know the exact differences in the 450 and 450C, although I know the C is a newer model. It is lucy you did not buy that specific machine. From the photos, I would say the sprockets are totally worn out. They teeth are worn so sharp, they look like razor blades
I know it looks like an older model... because it is Here's the ad , Judge for yourself... https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/12290727/case-450 https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/12290727/case-450 . My biggest concern is getting parts for older machines , Plus... I'm looking for a "C" model (83-85) The guy told me he had someone else interested ( because I dropped my offer by 1K ) So we cancelled our negotiating , The price seemed right for a "C" needing undercarriage The serial number said it was 10 years older than a "C" model Around 1972 ? I feel I Dodged one
I don't think it's Machinery Traders fault at all. They can't check every single machine to make sure the descriptions and other info is correct. It's certainly not the first time a wrong sticker was put on a machine. That's like trusting an hour meter to be accurate.
Actually the wrong decal set could be considered fraud if installed to deceive and is a criminal offense on the part of the seller. Machinery Trader is only a listing agency just like a newspaper classified ad. Congratulations on doing your due diligence.
IF the add originally said '450" like it does now, then you'd have a real hard time proving fraud. You'd have to prove this seller put the sticker on there knowingly (doesn't look like a fresh paintjob), and possibly with intent, impossible to prove and not worth it across state lines, to maybe recover $1,000. How did you find out later he knew about the Fake 450C on the Dozer?
It doesn't list a year. It just says Case 450. Now if the serial number plate was missing or altered and it was listed as a 10 year newer machine then maybe you could look at fraud. Just a wrong sticker (maybe that's all that was available) would be an uphill battle and you'd have to prove it was done intentionally to mislead a potential buyer. I've seen a lot machines with ripped off and missing serial number plates. Would that be fraud too? I don't think so. It has to be grossly misrepresented in order to be fraud.
...................................................... . .I'm not trying to cry Fraud... I'm only pointing out the MISLEADING attempt to add YEARS to a machine... . I'm nobody... Just a guy who could use a Dozer to finish my Runway.... It works the Dog snot outa my 580K loader... But at the same time... Before I throw 10K AWAY... I'd rather invest , by purchasing one with a good chance of fixing and maintaining it, , So this decal thing can really mess up a guy that's not completely Dozer literate... Oh, ha ha... it was a Joke to put the decal on... Fake News , Fake advertising? They raised the price by 2K now , your turn . Gotta Fly...
There is a viral video out now of a "BULLDOZER" hitting a tree. It is a backhoe. Most people think anything yellow is a bulldozer. After a flood the FEMA damage appraiser came around. He asked if I wanted a bulldozer, or a loader? I replied that a thirty ton excavator could do it in a week. He responded: "What's an excavator?" I tried explaining, he had never heard of such a machine. The man was 50 years old, his job is placing a dollar value on disaster repair. I thought he was pulling my leg, but no, he was serious. Some nit wit at a dealer selling a machine worth 5% of what they usually handle isn't going to pay any attention.
What are expecting for a 10K dozer?
I see equipment with 'newer/bigger' numbers on em' all the time... usually it's so the customer thinks they're getting more for their money when they see a 550 working instead of a 450 and sometimes jobs will require your equipment be of a certain age/size ...so it is now Very similar to contractors who bid out work for a 450 dozer to do bid work for small dozer jobs = JD450 T+M for the same job = Case 450 same number but the JD450 will do twice as much in a day
I don't know. A 450 billed, and priced as a 450, is not fraud, or misleading. One could argue it should have been pointed out it has improper badging. I don't have a day to crawl around inspecting, but the price is about what I'd expect a profit oriented machinery dealer to ask for a 450.
Yeah, perhaps I should have worded that better but basically the average joe blow just sees some contractor using a 450 so he wants a 450... I guess what I mean is not all same numbers are the same....
I guess I'm beating a dead horse... I won't keep explaining it...
"I know what your sayin".. its like going to buy an old Chevy SS.. you find one for a decent price only to find the guy bought SS badges & put them on a "regular" Chevy.. I'm glad to see MT adjusted the ad to reflect the actual equipment.. & I'm sure they were grateful to have it brought to their attention.. They sure don't want anybody coming back after them, after the sale.. Good job, PC..
The old adage "Caveat Emptor" - that means Buyer Beware for those who don't know Latin. 2nd-hand equipment, 2nd hand cars, makes no difference. Work on the principle that everyone's out to shaft you and you probably won't get shafted. Ad gives the machine Serial Number. Any interested party would surely carry out due diligence based on that in order to know what he's looking at before parting with hard-earned cash.
Due diligence and common sense seem to be things that a large part of the public is lacking these days. I remember a thread about a "Cat 966 Wheel Loader" from China recently as a typical example of due diligence. It was a great example of fraud as well.
I agree with Willie B and Nige. Buyer beware on any 30+ year old used equipment and pictures are worth a thousand words. For example: Here is a 30-40 year old Case construction machine pictured on what appears to be a New Holland Ag dealer’s lot. I would be surprised if the dealer was an expert this machine. It is also apparent this machine has a history that the dealer is not likely to know about. For example worn undercarriage that is missing the RH side cover and homemade brush sweeps painted in C series brown paint. Therefore when I see the text description lists 450C machine specs like a 71hp 390 engine, and I recall the 450 had a mid-50hp 207 engine, I would certainly question what specific engine is/has-been installed as the vehicle metal appears to be 450 (no C) style. The dealer listing may, or may not, be accurate. Possibly the dealer could be ignorant of what the machine configuration is, but when buying antique construction equipment a buyer needs to do due diligence.
Pretty easy to get caught , at least you can see what you are getting . Had an issue with a dozer I bought that was secured to a bank . Caught it when I had a lawyer go over the details as it was a lot of money . I don't know if it was fraud or not , would have made no difference if the bank had bankrupted him . Invoice from seller came from a different bank to the secured bank , chap explained that he kept his old bank account open for his customers as most pay by internet banking and don't like changing bank details . One wonders .
I bought a truck on eBay. It was 400 miles from me. Pictures showed a perfect truck. Text of advertisement was a 454 big block engine, a recent wood bed, rust free. After driving to PA to get it I learned the 454 was in fact a 366, and a 454 was not offered in this model year. The first time i loaded the bed, the bottom fell out. It looked perfect, but was completely rotted away. The frame of the dump body was so badly rusted, it wouldn't support a load. It had been smoothed with filler. and freshly painted. Rockers, door skins, and cab corners were rusted to nothing, but filler, and paint made them look perfect. This was fraud! I threatened to file a complaint with e bay. The seller agreed to refund part of my money. I spent too much on that truck, but have had 12 years service from it. It is still serviceable, but I am in the process of upgrading it. Willie