Talking about visibility from the seat reminds me of another thing that never ceizes to puzzle me: Why do I see so many dozers in America (US/Canada) WITHOUT an enclosed cab? Surely there are areas in the US with relatively warm climates, but Canada?.... A cab protects you from so many other things beside the elements, like dust and debris, it also protects personal things you might have in the machine. Coming from a european country with a harsh climate I shiver at the sight of these unprotected operator stations (ok sure they have ROPS). Even in southern Europe, countries like Spain and Italy machines have had enclosed cabs for decades. Are there any particular reasons for these preferences in America? What about current safety regulations in this respect? Just curious Hjolli
If memmory is correct, on the older D375's with the door closed it goofed up the visability to portions of the blade. I most always had to run with the door open. It would be nice to input some information to the designers.
One reason many around here don't have cabs is because of the lack of winter work for a dozer. It's just not worth digging (when we used to have real winters ).
Input to designers. Hi, Dozer575. Don't let us stop you. Get out your trusty pen, put it to paper and send off your thoughts to the Kummagutsa design team. I'm reasonably sure that you will soon receive a letter thanking you for your efforts. NOT. And an e-mail is likely to draw an even more negative response. Have at it. Hell, here in South-east Queensland in sunny DownUnder, you are flat out even getting somebody to answer the phone when you call the local Kummagutsa distributor for service or spare parts. Then, should you be so incredibly lucky as to actually get to speak to a REAL, LIVE PERSON, when you tell them that you want it yesterday, all you will hear for about the next 5 minutes is the sounds of convulsive mirth and the banging of furniture as the faceless entity on the other end of the phone rolls around on the floor laughing uncontrollably. Around here, Kummagutsa Service has come to be recognised as a contradiction in terms and the general feeling is that the 2 words ought not to be used in the same sentence if you wish your credibility to remain intact. At least with that 'other' brand that you mentioned might one day make a BIG dozer again, you CAN get spares and service for whatever 'SMALL' dozer you might happen to own and usually within about 24-36 hours, often off the shelf. That's better than having your $2 mill. D575 broken down for a week while you try to just simply get somebody on the phone to get the process in motion to get spares and service to your incredibly useless-looking broken down major plant investment. Quote: "on the older D375's with the door closed it goofed up the visability to portions of the blade. I most always had to run with the door open." Unquote. I have yet to see a cab on anything that gave BETTER visibility of the attached equipment than the open canopy. It is simply the nature of the 'beast' that 'fencing out' the elements also tends to cut off the flow of light rays that bring in the view. Would the other operators who followed you have loved that fact that you had filled the cab and the filters chock full of dust in what could otherwise have been a reasonably comfortable air-conditioned cabin?
Hi Hjolli I think the #1 reason all comes down to one little thing $$$. It's sad but true it cost so much less without an enclosed cab,AC,heat,wipers,stereos and don't forget cup holders. Of coarse I'm located in a very mild climate the southeastern part of the USA.
Deas Plant, It´s questionable what´s best for optimal production from the operator, a bit inferior visibility or suffering from cold and draft. In my mind beeing comfortable is a #1 thing for production. It would be hard to sustain a whole working day in the winter time in an open canopy. In that respect the all the Europen countries can´t be wrong. And by the way, would any one really want to drive their cars with all the windows broken? Or stay in their homes with no heat in the house? Hjolli
Maybe a little OT but I don't want a cab on my Harley. Athough I do like the later equipment with all the whistles and bells and creature comforts. But I know a few operators that still can't stand to be closed up in a cab. Open air and ROPS is all they want and one old guy still is on a widow maker no ROPS.
Love Dem A/C Cabs. Hi, Hjolli. I suspect that you may have mis-understood my comment about cabs not improving the view. I never said that I don't like cabs, only that I have never yet seen one that improved the operator's view. You give me my choice of 2 identical machines in the same condition, one with an a/c cab and one without, and you'll find my ample butt in the a/c cab one EVERY time. Thank you, but I've already done all the time I want to out in the dust, heat, cold and whatever other nasties you can dream up.
My 2 cents worth... If you can reverse the fan blades (so the engine heat is directed back through the engine compartment and into the operator's area), an open ROPS isn't too bad in the winter, unless it gets really cold. A machine with an open ROPS, that doesn't blow any heat into the operator's area, is miserable to operate when it's cold. The first thing that quits working on most machines is the AC. The last thing the owners want to spend money to fix is the AC. If it doesn't have AC, I don't want to have windows around me in the summer. Enclosing a cab has never improved the visibility on any machine.
I think alot of guys are spoiled today by cabs. We have 2 dozers, one with OROPS and the other with no ROPS. I don't mind running either. Use what you got :drinkup
Cab Protection Hi, Rino1494. There is a LOT more to air-conditioned cabs that just simple weather protection. One of the main benefits is a pretty much dust free environment for the operator while another is often reduced noise inside the cabin. I know that I personally feel fresher and more alert after a day in an A/C cab than I do on an open machine. Just a few.
Well, the old Ford T only had a front windscreen, otherwise open, and for decades truck drivers only had a front windcreen. So I guess we´re all spoiled.... Hjolli
I didn't say everyone was spoiled. I've come across alot of operators that complain because they are running old equipment or old trucks and they can't stand it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a a/c cab with a radio on a dozer. In fact, we are looking into purchasing another dozer this year, and it will prolly have a cab. I guess that I am just looking at it a different way. Running a business instead of just working for someone. If everyone had the money, then everyone would have cabs. I've spent my fair share running OROPS dozers and loaders in single digit weather with rags tied around my face to keep the cold out and the same in dusty conditions. I just don't like the fact that people have to complain about running "old junk". See what I am saying.
The dozer cabs Well, it seems that here are some some differences in preferences and traditions in this field from where in the world you live. Or maybe the climate in some parts of he world is simply too bad for not having a cab. Hjolli
All but one machine (the poor old roller ) we run has a cab and A/C. The problem that we have had is the operators want to run with the windows/doors open when the weather is mild and it trashes the cab with dirt/dust. I solved this problem when I got them all together and asked which one they would rather run - open rops or enclosed cab. All said cab machines of course! I told them if they wanted to run with the windows open then I could make that happen and take all the glass out and disconnect the A/C. I don't have anymore dusty cabs. I don't mind the added expense of a cab machine but I expect the operators to take care of it. Cabs and A/C do have a positive effect on productivity. As for the poor ol' roller - the next roller we get will have cab and A/C. You just don't see many rollers in my part of the country with a cab. On second thought it is a good way to weed out newbie operators - just put them on the roller either in 30 or 90 degree weather and see if they last a week.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I know the local union rules played a large part in many SoCal machines being equipped with no cab. The union bosses at one time wrote into the bylaws that if a machine has a cab and the AC does not work, if it is I think 90* or over, then the machine has to be parked, and the operator paid his full days wages and sent home. The contractors reacted to this by not ordering any cab machines, and even removing cabs from equipment already in service. You see, if the machine is not equipped, the operator has to run it regardless of the weather, and they just have to dress accordingly because they know there is no cab. They could not stomache the downtime for AC issues. I even seen a brand new 992D delivered to a site, and the next week the dealer was there removing the cab and installing OROPS. I run as many cab machines as I can, but the AC is a very costly maintenance item, and each machine consumes thousands of $$$$ each year trying to maintain it in working order. Fortunatly, I do not have to deal with the union rules, or the downtime waiting to repair AC would kill me. I say it is a fine example of harming the working conditions by a misguided effort to improve them.:Banghead :Banghead
Thats the same at the quarry here and its non-union. If the AC doesn't work then the machine is downed. Although the operator is not sent home and paid. He just jumps on another piece of equipment. Dust protection is required by MSHA and if the AC or heater doesn't work in their respective climates then the machine is downed for lack of protection.
Hi you all ,I'm pretty sure around here it's an insurance issue , all the quarries have a/c cabs the one that I go most of the times use to look at cabs like a luxurious item then one day out of the blues they were forced to park the old machines and for the operatos advantage got all new a/c cabs ,but if it was up to them , they would never spend that money on a cab.
MSHA requires them per say, not insurance.
Most of the time I have a closed cab, and if I don't I'm stopping every 15mins. to sneeze or a farmer blow. I'm always on guys about the heater/AC of closed cab machines if they don’t work. We get a good bit of fog in the morning and I have sat in my machine for 2 hrs + waiting for the windows to defog it drives me nuts.
Sweatin'/Freezin to The Oldies We run scrapers all year with open cabs, and it's no picnic...stuffing rags in the gaps in the summer, pull the engine access panel off in the winter.Cover the radiator with cardboard.... When winter approaches, I hit the building sites, looking for plywood scraps or big sheets of cardboard. Then it's over to Lowes for some double wide Duck tape....I even made my own glass rear window out of a storm window, Plexiglass flat out sucks after you clean it once.... Come summer, get out the foil/bubble pack insulation and the 3M adhesive, cover the firewall and the shift tower up. I get tired of having a 6 inch red circle burned into my right leg from having it lean against the shift tower.... put bicycle foam grips on the control levers... I took one of those inside/outside accessory car thermometers and installed it on my 627B, one sensor inside with me and one on the outside of the cab. Outdoors it was 90F, inside it was 130.... Someday, I hope to work for somebody with more modern equipment! alan627b
you wouldnt image some of the cats in b.c. There is soo many old d6s and d7s with just the rops. My grampa has 3 that he does siviculture with/ and build roads and skids logs with. And in the winter, -20, snowing, whos the guy running it, the owner(my grampa) at a young 65 with his dog sitting besided him. :crazy The northwest is famous for old still working equipment tho. most of it has no heaters or stero and definitly no a/c with older guys running in the dead of winter. You could go to almost any landing and find old 966c loading trucks or d6c pulling logs, old 225 hoe chucking and even some old 518 cable skidders.
A guy can always dress warmer, but cooler on the other hand. Alan my first day at Negus was the coldest I ever got running equipment. Running one of there 825s with one small window and a broken heater, I put my bare hand on the engine block and it was even cold. The next day I made damn sure I wore my long john’s the Carharts just wasn't cutting it.
corden ta o.s.h.a. ifit dont wrk ya better fix it:bash
My #1 Pet Peeve: When someone runs the air conditioning in a machine with the windows open :Banghead :guns Sucking all that dust in a day into the AC is like funneling dirt into the motor of your car before leaving for work.
We run all enclosed cabs at work. We need to though, between the blowing sand in the summer and -50 in the winter, open cabs don't work too well. As for A/C, we are the first priority on site for A/C repairs since the slurry we work in comes out of the pipe at 190 degrees. If the A/C stops working, we park the machine and a service man is sent out right away. Brian
That sounds like some nasty stuff. What kind of operation is it?
It is a Tailings operation in the Canadian Oil Sands. We handle and dispose of all of the sand that the plant has processed to get the bitumen out. Brian
I've ran old equipment many days throughout my career in dusty conditions, even to the point of having an eye bandaged over from getting the retina scratched from blowing sand. Other times I recall spreading top soil in real windy conditions where you couldn't see the corner of your blade. In conditions like that a cab definately improves your visibility. I refuse to run anything without a cab and A/C now. Keeping the operator comfortable definately improves productivity. If you can concentrate on your job rather than the conditions around your body, you will do a better job and not be as tired (and bitchy) at the end of a long day. Having a radio to listen makes the day go by a lot faster.
Alco Could you tell us what brand the dozers are? Not sure I would want to move there but I would like to work there, I hear it is very good pay.
http://www.coneco.ca/connection/pdf/june2004.pdf says here that this place is using komatsu d155 dozers specially modified for the work in the slurry. I've also seen pictures of d6 cats modified to run in the oil sands
At our operations we run D7R dozers, our last D6 left for garbage dump duty years ago. Our other mine runs D7R, D8R and D155 dozers. Our competition runs D155, D85, D8R, D7R and D8T dozers. Those are at a couple of different companies. It seems as if everyone is going away from the Komatsu machines and going to the Cats. The pay up here is good, but the living expenses are outrageous. A starter home will run you upwards of 400,000 bucks and trailers are only about 20 to 30 thousand behind them. Brian
I come from a different generation of operators. The newest generation. Just about every single piece of equipment that I have been in has a cab. I guess that was just part of learning, to learn how the smallest convex in the glass can affect your perception of the blade. I employee 4 operators. All of them under age 25. And all of them quite good. I have not even considered purchasing a machine without a cab. I figure it as the cost of doing business. All of my machines have all the bells and whistles. Cab, A/C, heat, stereo, cupholders, etc. And my guys are never late to work. We did rent a roller last summer. A little Ingersol-Rand. It was an open cab but IIRC it was only 40" wide. Tiny little thing, but I usually got on it in the afternoon. Felt like I was on my motorcycle!
:jawdrop :OMG
What can I say, the Komatsus just aren't up to the job at hand. Brian
I don't know which one is more disturbing: $400K starter homes or companies swithing from the absolute best oval track dozers in the universe to track throwing, undercarriage eating, top heavy Cat dozers!
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :notworthy :thumbsup
hi tracks wont be going there then bob
Interesting... what do you base that on?
:beatsme Maybe it's seeing all those Komatsu's being traded in on Cats.
Stop it....:laugh ointlaugh ointlaugh :lmao :lmao :lmao I'm gunna break somethin..
Well, to put it simply, the operations that were running Komatsu's in a Tailings role have been buying Cat's instead of more Komatsu's. Syncrude used to have D85's, they replaced them with D7R's. They still have some D155's, but they have bought replacement D7R and D8R dozers....no Komatsu's. Suncor had a fleet that consisted mainly of D85 and D155 Tailings dozers, but the latest dozers they bought were D8T's. I believe they also have some D7's. Albian Sands has only D7 and D8 Tailings dozers. That is what I based my comments on. In the past few years, there have been no Komatsu's purchased for Tailings duty, only Cat machines. The reasons behind the purchase of Cat over Komatsu is that the operators complain almost non stop about the Komatsu machines and the mechanics are even worse. Suncor, which is a Komatsu stronghold of sorts, was having problems keeping theirs running long enough to get the job done. Syncrude is not far behind. We have a D375 that we use for ripping and large dozing jobs in Tailings that is averaging around 30 percent availability......and that is almost all idle time. Every time we try to put it to work, it breaks down. In the past 6 months, I can't remember it making an entire shift without going to the shop. Hope that answers your questions. Brian
Alco, I wouldn't dispute that Cat have a huge presence in the oilsands, they make excellent machinery and Finning applied lots of resources to that region, to some degree at the expense of business elsewhere in Western Canada. I'm pretty sure that there were 8 new D85's delivered in the last half of 2006 to Suncor with tailings packages. I think CNRL are running new D375's and D155A-6's as well. On your 30% dozer... in my experience any D375/D475 will reach and exceed its contractual availability targets in the high 90%'s for its productive life whatever application its in... I didn't know they were used in tailings though!... your 30% is it a new machine or an older high hour/due for a rebuild?
Enclosed cabs I remember running an enclosed dozer on a superfund site in full facemask and full poly coated tyvek suits in the dog days of summer and th A/C did not work. So I would have loved to have an open cab.
Welcome to HEF Dozerdewees! :drinkup What kind of work required the use of that kind of protective wear?
enclosed cabs we were cleaning up a site that maufactured DDT which was a pesticide that was banned by the government.We wore full face mask respirators with rubber boots rubber gloves and polycoated jumpsuits.It was like wearing a rainsuit.Most of the time I was in the excavator also with no A/C outside Temp was around 98 degrees and if your an operator you know what it must have felt like in the cab. I lost several pounds that year. LOL
The news of the D85's for Suncor is new to me. As far as I knew the last new machines they got were the D8T's earlier last year. I will check into that. I know the people who do the equipment buying at Suncor said it was unlikely you would see more Komatsu Tailings machines there again, but that was a while agoand things change. Our 375 is not a Tailings dozer, it is used to prep and rip areas for Tailings cells before we build them. It is an older...but low operating hour machine. As I said it's operating hours are very low, but it has a lot of idle time on it. A fairly close guess would be about 5000 operating hours and 40,000 idle hours. It has been rebuilt and no matter what they do to it, it never stays running for a full shift. It has less than 500 hours on it since it was stripped to the frame and the powertrain was completely rebuilt. The rebuilt engine failed twice so far, the transmission failed once, and we lost a final drive less than 20 hours after the rebuild. Granted, it may be past it's "productive life", but that seems to be about 2500 hours so hardly worth mentioning. I know the 475 they have in the mine is even worse than our 375. The problem is they can't keep it running long enough to hour it out so they can get rid of it. Both of these machines have been this way since fairly early in their life. To give you an idea, they are both the same age....about 10 years. They have less hours on them than our older D10's and 11's that are only 5 years old. That should give you an idea how hard they are to keep running. They seem to be plagued by the Komatsu curse. They run fine when they are new, but get a few hours on them and they fall apart. The mine had a newer 375 on rental....I don't know the hours on the machine.........it was getting about 60 percent according to the Mine Operations Leader. I find it hard to believe CNRL has new 375's and 155's running since they are not running yet. They are still under construction and won't be up and running for about 2 years. The only Komatsu machines that we seem to be buying are loaders. We are already having troubles with a few of the machines that are getting some hours on them. The newer ones still seem to be doing ok. Syncrude hasn't bought any new Komatsu dozers since the opening of the Aurora mine, and those were the D155 Tailings machines. Suncor is still buying Komatsu machines for in the mine, but the Tailings machines are news to me. A couple of contractors have been buying Komatsu since they need the equipment now and can't wait two years for Cats. Brian
What makes me not believe any of this sort of thing is, I just don't see any 375's or 475's for sale at scrap price. They command the same top dollar as the CAT's do. Its kinda like the old high track vs oval track D8' s and D9 arguement. I see the price of 30 plus year old machines that are pretty much worn out metal fatigued, advertized at probably the same price they could have been bought new for. If it is such an unpopular machine then why the high price? Alco pretty much summed it up, the reason for Komatsu's not holding up. Operators complaining about them, and mechanics not wanting to work on them. Then it must be an anti komatsu deal that makes sure they don't stay in operation. So funny last place I worked everyone wanted to operate the komatsu dozers. I would like to see a real mining study. So why if the CAT product is so great, don't they make a nice big mining dozer? Maybe they are afraid if they do, they will be laughed at, because it will have to be an oval track design. They just can't go too much bigger with that high track design, it will be way outa proportion, and will need elevators for sure.
You must be on to something, those anti Komatsu agents are at it again. I thought they were all wiped out after the great oval vs high-track war.:crazy :beatsme Umm D11R carry dozer?:deadhorse
D11 is a toy. I'm talking 575 size and larger. Gosh there are huge mining excavators. What is wrong can't anyone build a compariable dozer? Cat has absolutly nothing to compair to the Komatsu 575, it will push a fully loaded D11 underpower backwards with out breaking a sweat.
There is one reason no one has stepped up to the plate: cost. First, there's only two big names in big dozers to begin with: Cat and Komatsu (listed alphabetically). When a manufacturer sells forty frames in a ten-year period, which is approximately what the D575 has sold, there's really no incentive for another one to join in unless it is confident it can push the other one out entirely. The costs to develop a D575-sized "D12" would be astronomical -- economies of scale (and just doubling the size on everything) might not hold up perfectly. Furthermore, Cat won't take the financial risk of selling, what, four machines a year -- maximum -- to offset what would probably be a several-million dollar product introduction. For another manufacturer (except one) to develop such a large dozer is even more preposturous. No one has large-dozer experience (Liebherr is just getting a D9-sized machine), and to start from scratch, well, probably not likely. The company I could envision doing one or two large dozers would be LeTourneau -- they already make the largest wheel loader, so they have experience in huge machines. The issue is, even they don't have any tracked models, and the UC is going to be most likely the biggest design headache. Ultimately, I just don't see it happening. The D575 is a pretty specialized dozer; you don't see it on road construction projects or pulling scrapers. I doubt Cat would take the risk (and I doubt its beloved shareholders would allow it to take the risk) to build a machine that might or might not sell and only in a handful per year.
If you took the Cat D-11's sold in the last year and lined them up against all the 575's ever made, the komatsu would not have a chance. The market for that size dozer is not there, nor is the reliability. I know you like Komatsu, but to argue with people who have firsthand knowledge of the machines is foolish. How many pieces of equipment have you ever owned? My latest Komatsu experience is a machine down for weeks awaiting parts. Longest wait for Cat parts I can recall was 2 days. When you are paying the bills, and you are responsible for the production to make the money that pays those bils, then you will look at it with more facts and less emotion. The proven fact is that Cat dozers are FAR more reliable than the Komatsu counterparts. The people here who contribute are very knowlegable about these things. You are right, Alco did sum it up, but you did not read it very carefully, so I will paste it here again: Quote: "It has been rebuilt and no matter what they do to it, it never stays running for a full shift. It has less than 500 hours on it since it was stripped to the frame and the powertrain was completely rebuilt. The rebuilt engine failed twice so far, the transmission failed once, and we lost a final drive less than 20 hours after the rebuild. " It would pay dividends for you to check around before blindly following your emotional love for the Komatsu brand. They do build some good products, and their excavators in particular are decent machines, but it still comes down to support. If you need it to be available, the smarter choice is a Cat. I'll get down off of the box now :soapbox
Hey its the computer age. The design work is nothin nowdays. I think Cat knows if they were to build a D12 or 13 hi drive, it would take twice the hp that the 575 has to do the same thing. ie that scale thing you mentioned. The losses of that final drive and rear idler tugawar would climb exponentially and thats saying nothing about the curved rail wear rates as well. So you have a point there. That is why I had said they would have to resort to the same undercarriage they so happily supply on their smaller offerings of dozers. It is nice they see the light there. Too bad Buster Peterson isn't around to show them how to build a dozer again.
Sorry. I beg to differ. Design engineers may not know everything, and the veterans may be retiring, but this point is downright wrong. I've sat in the design seat, and it is by far the last thing from nothing you'd expect. And my mistakes were coming from a person who knows the equipment!
Is this guy for real? :crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy This is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you realize that all you are getting is dirty and the pig is enjoying it!
No. I don't believe he is. :stirthepot :deadhorse If you guys want to play, feel free, but this is one of those posters who is here to create more heat, rather than shed more light, on the subject.
Hi Komatsu 575, What do you know about design, heavy machines and what´s good or bad? I´m sitting behind a computer designing machines every day, I know what computers are capable of designwise nowadays. On the computer screen in a virtual environmet you can e.g. place your self in the seat of a dozer, looking out of the windows in all directions, and if something is obstructing the view you go ahead and make e.g. some window larger or the hood more sloping. (not that I´m designing dozers..) I´ve also driven several Cat machines over the years, the best machines I have tried. Komatsu´not all bad, but in dozers the reputation is clearly on the Cat side. Komatsu dozers are fine machines to operate when new, but the won´t last as long, everybody around is telling the same thing about that, you´re constantly running aganist the wind man......
And if the trend continues, that heat will be extinguished permanently. Consider yourself warned. CM1995, I believe you are correct and the policy here does not tolerate such games.
D8Bob????????????????????????? Hi, Folks. I don't know if this 'Kummagutsa'D575 really is D8Bob or not and I don't care. As to whether he is real or not, for sure, he IS real. What he is not is open-minded or sincere in his efforts to bring out the truth. He is extremely selective about which parts of which posts he chooses to respond to and seems to be very adept at taking things out of context. I have absolutely no doubt that his intentions for this site have nothing to with harmony or the truthful dessemination of information but rather involve what is commonly known around my part of the world as 'stirring'. He has not put forward one rational argument to back up his claims. WHY???? Could it be because he CAN'T??????? Because there is no such information???????????? Short of banning him, which is a move that only the moderator can make, I would suggest that all we can do to alleviate or eliminate any effects his efforts might have here is to TOTALLY ignore him. I for one won't be responding to any more of his posts. What the rest of you choose to do is up to each individual.
:iagree
Just don't call him a troll.
As usual you make some good points Tigerotor but I think by natural progression a bigger dozer will come and I think it will eventually come from Caterpillar.
Bigger Dozers Hi, Folks. I faintly suspect that there are a LOT of companies around the world with huge volumes of earth and rock to move - and probably move a second time before they are through with it - who would early love a bigger CAT dozer right now. Sure, there IS a bigger dozer in production today than those made by Cat. Trouble is, it's NOT made by Cat and it has proven itself to not have a long working life. How many of the few sold are still working? We have a contractor not far from where I live who has re-powered D11's with bigger engines and modified them to handle the extra grunt to provide a better service for his clients and most of his work is root or blade plowing. He NEEDS to be able to move his machines as easily as a D11 can be moved. Most of the jobs where bigger dozers would be viable are long-term jobs with HUGE volumes of material to be moved and it has been shown that BIG dozers are hard to beat for cost effectiveness over short distances. I'm not holding my breath waitng for it but I suspect that bigger dozers are going to come along, probably with modular construction, so that they can be assembled for work and dis-assembled for transport with minimum fuss and minimum technology. Buster Peterson designed his Saimese D8's to be assembled and stripped by ordinary workmen with fairly minimal tools and there were NO fluid connections to work with. Just for chuckles, try this sucker on for size. The HEAVIEST and the seond most powerful dozer so far built, the Acco dozer has never struck a blow 'in anger'. At 183 tons and with 2 x 675 hp Cat V8's, it iS a fair lump of iron.
Thats a big dozer. It looks like they used the high drive sprocket as well as another drive sprocket in the rear. Did they use one engine to power the high drive and one to power the rear? Did Acco make all the components or did they use other cat stuff from big cats to build it?
Questions??????????????????????? Hi, MikeJ. Will ya shuddup and stop asking questions for which I don't have answers. Woddaya tryin' ter do? Make me look iggerant er sumpin? To put it a little more politely, I do know that it has two Cat diesels. I seriously doubt that one was driving the upper sprockets and one the lower. The synchronisation issues would be enormous. I even doubt that they would have had one driving each side. I'm more inclined to think that they merged the power from the two engines into one transmission and then to normal crawler clutches and brakes steering but I DON'T know. I have been told that the pairs of sprockets on each side were driven together by a gear train. I also gather that it and a 200 ton grader never went to the job for which they were intended in Libya because of trade embargoes imposed against Libya at the time of the Lockerbie plane bombing. I have been told that neither has ever turned a paying blade of earth. On top of that, Acco also built a 160 ton prototype of his grader before he built the 'real' one. Here are a few photos of this li'l' jigger for the blade hands here.
Cute little fella isn't it. Curious as to what the moldboard visability would be like from inside the cab.
More Of Same - Dull And Boring, I Know But.......... More of same plus one of an HD41, a D10, another HD41 and the Acco dozer.
EROPS vs OROPS The way I see the EROPS vs OROPS is this. While cabs are alot more expensive up front, over the long run they will probably pay for themselves with increased productivity and owner or employee satisfaction,because of a more comfortable operating enviorment. Some of the big name excavating contractors that I have worked for now have very few orops machines. They are just phasing them out and replacing any new machines with cab models. Eventually because of health issues, you probably will not even be able to purchase an OROPS machine. Maybe not in my lifetime,but eventually.When buying any machine for myself I always opt for a cab model..........but of course I'm getting old and soft.lol There is a certain amount of lost visibility with any cab model,but the advantages far outweigh that one disadvantage. One thing I hate to see is anyone get on a new cab machine and throw the doors and windows open.Geez! I feel if a company is going to pay the extra money for a cab I should keep it sealed up tight and as clean as possible. I realize that some operators feel they can't hear or see as good out of a closed up cab,but its just gettting used to a little different sound and different sight lines. So, keep them cabs closed up and clean. Sincerely, Dirt
whats the most powerful then??
Those machines are simply amazing..... Id love to get a look at some of that.
The ACCO dozer is the heaviest and most powerful dozer built. The D575 on initial release, was 1050 HP, but has since been uprated to 1150 HP. At 336,420 lb / 152600 kg, with blade, counterweight, cab, ROPS, operator and all lubricants and full tank of fuel, the D575 SD is still a way behind the Acco dozer. D575 SD specs .. http://www.equipmentcentral.com/north_america/new_equipment/machine_data.cfm?prdt_id=523 Not sure that the production figure of forty D575 machines is correct. According to my S/N book, which is 10 years old, there were 23, D575's built between the release date of 1991, and 1996. They have been in production for 16 years now, and a likely total production number would be more like, well over 100 machines. There are 5, D575's operating just in the State of Western Australia, that I know of, and possibly more. There are several in Australia that have been parted out. Umberto Acco used all Cat components in his enormous machines .. and he built two huge (different size) graders, a number of rear dumpers, as well as numerous monstrous 4WD tractors, besides the giant dozer. His workshop was an incredible size, and littered with components like a Cat factory. He made all his money from civil construction, and spent heaps of it, on building large-scale 'toys' .. Well, they weren't supposed to be toys, originally .. because he built these machines for massive projects in Libya, that Gaddafi had planned. However, when Gaddafi started on his terrorism line, in the 80's, and the U.N. slapped sanctions on Libya, Acco was left holding the baby, as no-one was allowed to deal with Gaddafi in any commercial manner. Umberto Acco died a couple of years ago, and his company directors have now 'cleaned up' his workshop (sent everything to scrap), and placed all Umbertos 'dream machines' in a storage shed that is not readily accessible to the public .. and people wishing to inspect the Acco giant machines must obtain Acco Construction Co permission to visit them. It is not known what will happen to the machines. There is talk of them being put into some kind of 'museum' or public display, but that has not happened yet. "Small" Acco grader .. http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2522/accogradersmall1bs1.jpg Acco rear dumps .. http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/30/accoreardumpskx9.jpg Acco grader blade visibility - cab view .. .. http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5476/accograder6xb6.jpg Acco large 4WD tractor .. http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7003/accotractor1vi1.jpg Two pics of the Acco workshop, prior to being 'cleaned up' ..
I could be wrong... 'course that's never happened before. (bigger 'n a 797B load of sarcasm there...) Time will tell.
There are 5, D575's operating just in the State of Western Australia, that I know of, and possibly more. There are several in Australia that have been parted out. I think, if you check, that four of them are "operating" and one is......resting a bit. But I could be wrong. Capel sands also had one (whatever they are called now) and they had a real good run pushing ilmenite.
Heaviest and NOT the most powerful. Hi, Ozdozer. I said the heaviest and SECOND most powerful because I know about this baby which worked for 18 years and was scrapped before 'Bertie' ever started building his toys. Here are some pics taken from a magazine article from 1963, the year the beast was made. Because of the image size limitations of the site, I have had to do some serious chopping of the original article to get it on here. I hope I have got them all in more or less the right order. More to come.
Heaviest and NOT most powerful - More to come_1 More of the same.
And Still More. Monotonous, ain't it? And still more. Monotonous, ain't it?????????? B-b-b-but th-th-th-thats' all, Folks.
Squizzy - There are 4 x D575's operating at Acoa (all remote-controlled) .. and 1 at Murrin Murrin. Didn't know about a D575 at Capel (now Iluka Resources). Which one is 'resting a bit' .. ?? .. :beatsme
I love that cab. Western Contracting had a bunch of equipment special made back in their hayday. Times have changed, no handrails or stairs to get in the cab. Excellent post Deas!:thumbsup
Deas - Hmmm .. (OzD scratches head) .. yeah, O.K. .. I guess you COULD call that Western push dozer, a dozer .. but it's not exactly what I had in mind, when it came to comparing big crawler tractors ..
I assumed that there were 5 at Beenup, not four...anyway, my mate is with GeoBlast, in and out of Alcoa on a regular basis, and he said they had one down for awhile. We oversaw the load out of the old screening and crusher plant from Murrin Murrin...it was going to South Africa, I was down at Esperance for the final load out. Didn't know they had the big Komatapillar at MM. The 575 down at Capel was one of the first to arrive in the state....it went back to Perth for some modifications and then it went to Eneabba...I think.
howdy alan627b, i ran one of the "old" 627's for negus for one day about 4 yrs. ago. i think i know what you are talking about, that was one hot old machine,i had just retired from a factory job and thot i would try constuction again but after 11 hrs. i had to tell the foreman that a younger guy than me was going to have to run that old girl!
How do the operators like the remote control OzDozer?
Oz, my mistake, as it turns out the biggest machine that could have gone to Capel sands at the time (90-91) was a 475. The driver I know who was there can't remember for the models but is sure it wasn't a 575 but it was from Komatapillar and its was "Real Big". Since there was no 11's down there I'm assuming it was a 475. I apologise for leading you astray.
Wulf - Remote control is a very effective tool for dangerous situations, and conditions where operators risk injury from severe ripping conditions. The operators are happy, and the companies are happier .. because it effectively improves safety levels and LTI's. The initial application and designs of remote control were for underground equipment in Kalgoorlie, in the mid 1980's. Bob Muirhead was a local electrician with a bent for figgerin' things out, and thinking up new ideas, and he really is the man responsible for getting workable remote systems in place. Since that time, remote control systems have advanced enormously .. with electronics, and improved control designs being strides ahead of the originals. Alcoa use a Remote Operating Station, a mobile cab-style structure for the operator, which enables the operator to sit and operate just as if he was on the machine. RC presentation .. http://www.rct.net.au/PDF/Presentations/Dozer Remote Presentation.pdf (1.56MB file!) Pages 4 and 5 of this following .PDF file, outline the Alcoa design and implementation of the Remote Control system for the D575's .. http://www.minerals.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/4888/Alcoa_Minex_Submn03.pdf
Welcome to HEF 8-ball! :drinkup
Wow another guy from Negus.
welcome to the forum 8-ball:notworthy
THAT dozer. Hi, OzD. Yeah, I grant you that it ISN'T a crawler and that it wasn't designed for pushing dirt unless it was already in the bowl of a scraper but it was DESIGNED for pushing and from all reports it did that spectactularly. Here's another little toy that, while not exactly a dozer, would probably have been a little pushy. From what I can gather, it was made for a company called Gregg, Gibson and Gregg from around Fort Lauderdale in Florida for clearing on the later abandonded Cross-Florida Canal Project. I once found a site that had a lot of B-W images of construction of this canal. Amongst these images were several showing smaller versions of this jigger but none of this jigger itself. If anybody has any further information about this machine, I'd love to see it.
Thats COOL. You said they made smaller ones too?
Rush hour? I don't have no stinkin' rush hour - if I had that baby!
That beast looks like something out of RG LeTourneau's shop!
LeTourneau?????????? Hi, Jerry. Yes, I agree that it does have a LeTourneau-ish look about it but I have been informed by people claiming to be much more knowledgable than I that LeTourneau never made anything with steel tracks. One of these people has actually written 3 books on LeTourneau and his toys. I did have one response from an e-mail contact of mine in Taxes, er, oooppss, sorry, Texas who said that a friend of his in Florida had told him of some extremely large track chain and shoes that he had seen some time before in a scrap yard down that way. I could get no further information from that source. I have e-mailed the Fort Lauderdale Chamber of Commerce, some newspaper in the town and the LeTourneau Museum at Longview, Tx., and got the same deafeningly silent reponse from all three. Now maybe I AM just a nobody on the other side of the world who is asking a question for which they don't have an answer BUT, if I receive a question like that, on any topic, I at least endeavour to answer and let the enquirer know that I don't know, or pass on whatever information I do have if I have any. Maybe I'm just a relic from the age of the dinosaurs and need to be taken out the back paddock and shot but I don't believe that common courtesy is too much to expect. However, I'm not judging them because I have no way of knowing just how many other 'dumb' questions they might receive per day from whatever parts of the globe asking for information that they don't have or don't feel they have the time to impart. I'd still like to hear from anybody who might have any information about this beast. Or is there anybody who lives down that way who might be willing to take this photo and make some enquiries? I doubt that I'm the only one who would like to know.
A/C and cabs CM1995,I know how you feel Two years ago my partner and I bought a new Liebherr R317 18 ton backhoe,the way things worked out I drove it the first 300 hours and you could have eaten your dinner off the floor it was that clean. Than we brought it to a job to dig a drain etc after instructing one of our lads to use the machine to place pipe bedding etc. we left to check out another job. When we came back the donkey had opened the door and kept it open what with the dust and stour flying about I could have cried at the state of the cab!! Neil
Great posts Deas, these are like little "gold nuggets" in the pages of history.
Woops! Didn't look at how old this tread was, sorry!
Seems this thread got a little off subject.I am looking for another dozer at present with a cab because of the bees & yellow jackets we encounter in the summer in Louisiana. You can`t dress appropriatley for them. Also It needs to be a LGP because of the never ending rain.