Hello People Just sat watching gold rush the other night and noticed the guys were having problems with the dpf throwing codes and shutting down the engine (Cat C9) on a large water pump. After much messing around with the machine the mechanic decided to remove the full DPF/egr system he took off the NRS cooler and blanked everything off. What amazed me was he got her up and running no problem. Is this really possible or just TV bs I have a few machines with the C9 with DPF not ad blue and would love to rip it all off, I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this. Cheers
Made for TV dramatized BS IMHO, although I haven't seen the episode in question. Removing the DPF and blanking everything should've resulted in the diagnostic panel lighting up better than a 4th of July fireworks display. In an-emissions regulated market like the UK are you aware that no dealer would want to/be permitted to (*delete as appropriate) work on any machine if all the emissions equipment had been removed/circumvented/whatever.? So you could kiss all your Finning support goodbye in a heartbeat.
I don't watch the show nor seen the episode either but I'd say TV BS. However I do know a local guy that deletes DPF equipment on on-road trucks all the time. He has the software to re-program the computer so no idiot lights come on. Not that I am advocating anything..
HeavyEquipmentForums Talked about here.
Steve, this is what the US laws say about deleting DPF. I'm sure there must be something similar in the UK atlhough I'm not familiar with the fine detail. Confirms what I said before. Nobody will want to go within a mile of it to do service/repair work after the delete, and no-one will want to buy it when you eventually try to move it on from your ownership. HeavyEquipmentForums
Over Christmas was talking to a guy who was a salesman at a Volvo dealer in Southern Alberta. I asked him about the Volvo machines on Gold Rush. He said they lease the machines but it's next to nothing. What was interesting though is he said Volvo sent a small Seacan with all the filters, oil and maintenance items required to Parkers site. Near the end of the season the dealer and some Volvo reps. were on site and noticed the seal hadn't even been broken on the seacan! He also said there is a guy who watches every episode just to count how many times the Volvo name is shown. Apparently there is a minimum number they have to show it but he wasn't sure of that number.
I can just imagine the ramifications should Caterpillar get ahold of a PSR from a deleted machine. Plus all it would take is for a dealer tech to flash the latest software into the ECM during a routine shop visit and your machine will be a paperweight.
I hate this emissions stuff as much as anyone else but unfortunately its here to stay so we need to adapt to it.
I've not seen the show, but can anyone tell me which C9 has a DPF? I've never seen one.
It'd be a C9.3 wouldn't it?
Having had a few PM conversations with the OP over the last year or so about various things unless I’m mistaken the engine in question is most probably in a late-model track-type tractor. EDIT: Sorry just realized you were talking about the water pump engine.
That would make more sense.
Yes it's a c9.3. To be fair if it's a set up it's a pretty elaborate one cos the guy carrying out the up grade certainly seems to know where to go to, he definitely rips off the NRS cooler and blanks everything off, he even makes a new exhaust section to replace the dpf il try post a link to the video look around the 28 min mark, see what you think
Hi Nige It wouldn't worry me complying with any regulations as all our work is our own contracts, we dont answer to anyone. It also wouldn't be a concern regarding the Cat main dealers, I carry out all my own repairs and anything we cant handle we have a good ex main dealer independent can jump in and sort 99% of stuff. There is no law can stop you from making these alterations to off road equipment only a client can specify a certain level of emissions control.
Steve, I understand that, but what happens when you want to sell the machine.? In its modified state it ought to be (in theory at least) the proverbial hot potato that no-one wants to go within a mile of. Having watched the video - total BS............if it was that easy everybody would be doing it, not just some wizard buch mechanic up in Alaska. It begs the question as to why the ***k did they buy a pump for a remote job site with an emissions package on it in the first place.?
Since when does working a machine harder cause rad hoses to blow and track links to break? It seems like an on going theme on Gold Rush. The excuse is that's what happens when you have unrealistic goals and deadlines. I can see why Fred Hurt left the original show. His comment was he wanted to be a miner not an actor. Too much scripted drama. Yea rad hoses can blow but not just because you're driving a loader faster and tracks links don't just come flying apart driving an excavator across the site.
Its what happens when you don't maintain and look after your ****. Or a TV producer needs some drama to keep viewers watching.
I agree theres alot of bs on gold rush but I doubt any of the producers would have the mechanical knowledge to create a scene where a c9 engine is de emissionised due to soot load problems. If that fitter did rip all that crap off the engine and get it to run correctly I'd say hes a good man and well worth his wages. I agree with nige that taking a pump up there with dpf on it was a foolish move.
The part they are missing is they would have had to have an aftermarket software program lined up. Nothing that mech can do with a OEM flash file to make an engine run with a bush delete. Engines are deleted every day as we know it’s just having the correct software after the hard parts are removed. I agree tier 3 would be better but I’m not sure about industrial engines but we are over 10 years of tier 4 on those 9.3 Cats so finding a tier 3 15-20 year old engine is not ideal in my mind either. Pick your poison
Having worked at a rental store and playing a bit with power generation my personal observations are people still think "old school" with engines. These Tier 4 engines NEED to have the **** worked out of them. Running at 30% engine load is just ruining the equipment. Why do you think the days of big bore, 16L on-highway truck engines are over? Because its too much engine for a measly 80k lb rig. I've lost count of how many times I'd go to a generator for emission codes and come to find out they're running the engine at a 20% load? When you explain to them that they created this problem by renting a generator that was vastly oversized for the job I'd get the deer in headlights look.
Also, if he had ET which is implied, just perform a manual regen.
He definitely had to have aftermarket software to do the delete. We see it a lot here in sask. But most deletes are done on highway trucks and personal vehicles. Contrary to all the horror stories I’ve read on the other thread we have very few problems on deleted and tuned trucks. We do however have no ridiculous shutdowns due to plugged DPF or bad def fluid. We also have way better power and better fuel economy. Sorry for you guys that don’t want to hear that. Our day will come that we have to follow the emissions rules but I hope I’m retired by then.
The software for the delete is often nothing more (or at least very broadly similar to) what the factory would install on a machine being exported to a country where there are no emissions regulations. Cat refer to them as LRC (Less Regulated Countries). That software won't be looking for the DPF and all the other sensors related to the emissions package therefore it won't set off alarms. I'm like my learned friend above. I've been lucky to work in LRC areas all my life so I don't have to cope with it, and when I hear all the horror stories especially on smaller engines I sincerely hope I'm out of the business before it becomes compulsory.
I'm not a lot of help with Cat electronics will always cede the knowledge base on generators to those who do that work all the time. However I have extensive experience on centrifugal water pumps and can say with deep experience that a diesel engine turning one of those will be at close to full output all the time unless the flow of water is restricted. In the case of watching the amount of water going through those wash plants, I'd say there is no way they were lightly loaded enough to plug up the DPF unless something was wrong with the engine to start with. My other problem with the story is that I haven't seen a DPF installed on a water pump engine just yet. Maybe a shade tree rigged a truck engine onto the water pump. Who knows?
I found that there is a very steep learning curve and it applies to all levels of the company. The driver/operator needs to be trained and understand the system and learn what the repercussions of his actions will be. Simple things like if it is the middle of a burn. Management needs to learn the same. If said driver or operator is in the middle of a burn or some other system generated operation, don't tell then to shut it down and start over or shut it off and go home. And to the mechanics. Not every after treatment issue will be repaired by forcing a regen. Learn the system. The company I was working for before I retired had an interesting time when we first got Tier4 and Tier4 final, but over time we managed to get everyone onto the same page and the amount of times that the machines were down slowly decreased. We have C9's in some of our machines. We looked at trying to delete but once again dealer support would go away and since we are a "Green" company we had to keep all of this stuff on. So we learned. Funny thing, on the trucks with the DD16's in them. They could derate 10% and the drivers didn't even notice, at a 25% derate they would come in and say that it just didn't seem to have the zip it used to. I refuse to watch Goldrush. I watched the one little segment about the C9 from the link above. My question is what were they doing that caused the issue in the first place.
So I'm going to ask a question that I've asked before, and haven't gotten a good answer for. What are we supposed to do with tier 4 cranes? Take a single engine truck crane/ or boom truck, it has to be big enough engine, to move a 90,000lbs rig down the road, so the customers/ company sells/ installs a 500hp engine. Then when we get to the job site, it has to sit and idle 1/2 the day, and "working hard" only turns a set of hydraulic pumps that you could pull with a 80 hp engine. There is no effective way to "run it hard". All my trucks and cranes are pre 2002. I don't own anything new enough to have def. A old 6-71 I have will just burn a little blue for the first 3-4 miles after its been on a jobsite for a week, burning out the slobber from the exhaust manifold. Somehow I don't think that kind of use is going to work with def equipment. I have had a little experience with regen, and that engine in that particular crane was a nightmare. The company that owned it gave up on it last month and sold it. Keep everything pre 2002 until I absolutely have to?
I've seen and heard of issues like yours on city owned equipment. A boom truck or big man lift sits at idle while people are in a precarious position. Sometimes a big excavator or crane is working underground utilities and might have to sit at idle for a couple of hours while working through traffic jams of fiber optics, phone cables, oil and gas pipelines and who knows what else. I even had to make note of the situation in my book when I got to crawler cranes. I don't know how many slobbering Cummins engines in Link-Belt cranes are left but I'm sure there must be plenty still in P&H, American and others that still might be operational. From my point of view that DPF in those situations is a fire hazard at the least and might put people in peril at the worst.
You nailed it. And it is a problem. Friend of mine works in a local truck shop. Our city fire trucks are always in the shop. ALWAYS. He thinks, and I have to agree with him, that there should be exemptions for certain applications. I have no knowledge on military spec. Do they run Tier4? I just can't imagine trying to run some kind of maneuver and having an issue.
As far as I know military engines have a tag that says "national defense exemption" or something like that. They make the rules but they don't have to play by them.
EPA and the military had a big go around with one another a year or two back, over military surplus trucks. All the used military trucks were originally built non epa compliant, and the epa wasn't happy with those being turned loose in U.S. market. I don't know what became of the lawsuit (how the gov't sues itself in gov't court is something I try not to think about too hard ). But they only shut sales of the surplus trucks down for a couple months. The 8.3 cummins that I took from two military trucks were not built to comply with anything epa. The newest AT type trucks I saw last time on base, had a computer controlled CAT engine in it, I don't know if it had any emissions components.
The military does not run tier 4. They know it doesn't work. In some applications, they still run brand new 2-cycle detroit engines as they have a standing contract with detroit till like 2040. The best thing to do in a application like this is run pre-emissions stuff if you are paranoid about deleting something.
I don't think its a good idea to be pulling off emissions equipment on a nationally televised tv show...…...….where government officials could be watching. LOL
Tony Beets was fined $31,000 for deliberately setting the fire in the pond. Biggest piece of evidence was footage aired on the show. Who knows about the water pump, maybe Volvo wanted to show problems with a Cat engine? https://www.yukon-news.com/news/rea...y-fined-31000-for-violating-yukon-waters-act/
Gold Rush is getting stupider all the time. A single axle tank truck is 40 tons??? It wouldn't even be 40,000lbs.!
Ok, so I have read the article (could not get the video to play so far but I am in MS). WHY did he pour the gasoline into water?
Dramatic effect and/or stupidity. I think Discovery should have been charged. They filmed an illegal activity and you would think they would do some research on what the environmental rules are for gold mines.
That is a little crazy. You would think everyone around would know better than to do that. I thought they might have had some reason for doing this other than dramatic effect. I do not watch that show, so was curious.
Hahaha. I wonder who was behind the screen on that computer..... The pump has never run so well and never skipped a beat...so I've been told.
Military is exempt. I saw Military Cat dozers and export dozers on the line in 2016. They still make the “older” stuff we just can’t have it the emergency services begged for an exemption for Tier 4, EPA said no
The dpf is driving me nuts on one of our D6T. The engine is in fairly good condition, but it keeps shutting down on me. How would EPA even know if I get it deleted? No one ever done sniff test on mine. Has anyone ever seen sniff test done on equipment?
So far there are no smoke police that I know of. Where it gets caught is when a dealer is asked to work on it. They will refuse and are actually supposed to notify someone, but I don't know if any dealers have turned anyone in. They won't work on it unless it is to put the machine back into conformance with the regulations and laws.
I work for a dealer and hadn't been instructed on what to do when I came across a deleted machine. What I do know is that Volvo knows that the machine is deleted as soon as I plug in my laptop. I have worked on a handful of deleted machines and nothing has been brought up to me. If you do the delete and have any ecm or software problems then the dealer can't help you. The only problem I see with doing a delete is if there are major software updates to fix some quirky problem and you can't without going back to original software.
This is an interesting thread. I absolutely abhor these emissions engines in equipment. As some have stated I.e. cranes and I’ll add service trucks, excavators, dozers, and on and on have seen and had major issues with them all. We bought a brand new 336 Cat with the tierIII/tier IV in it and almost from new had derate issues. Back to Cat several times, several DPF filters, sensors and on and on. Invested in a Cat diesel filtration system to the tune of 80,000 grand which didn’t help. Point being the machine since new did not average 50% availability and even Cat couldn’t fix it. After the warranty period we were on our own. Had some tier IV final engined equip and the same issues albeit with different issues due to the complexity of def systems. Way less availability on machines you are counting on to operate at a minimum of 90% and horrendously more expensive to maintain. It’s an unmitigated disaster at least it was for us in the mining industry and I just feel for the poor mom and pop folks that this kind of thing would put out of business.
I had exact same situation as described above. My D6T was money pit, I was pouring and pouring money in it. Finally I bit the bullet and did a delete. After delete tuning I had to do some exhaust modifications(remove the filters honeycomb ceramic), and unplug certain electrical plugs. The results are no downtime, the dozer is stronger, and it burns less fuel (I think around 4 gal/hr less, didn't pay too close attention). The only down side is that the exhaust sound is a bit stronger. For the process I had to buy cat communication adapter 3 (paid around 700$), and the company doing delete installed a program called Caterpillar Electric Technician. With that program they can update ECM, and they can read fault and event codes. Now I use it to read the codes my self.
I have to say that Cat isn’t the only ones. Have a JD 250GLC excavator tierIII/tierIV interim with DPF that we had to do a delete on to keep it running and has done fine since the delete. Had a bunch of JD engines on water pumps with exact same issues. There are just too many things that can and do go wrong and troubleshooting is a nightmare as even factory techs can’t diagnose and fix the problem. They just change a part and hope it fixes it. The JD dealer service mgr told me I needed to find someone to delete mine. They were good people to deal with but simply at a loss. We had logged hours worth of data and monitored all the parameters and JD factory techs had reviewed and every time came back and said you just need to change the DPF at $4000 a pop not including labor. I kept asking why is it going out to which I would never get an answer. Fuel, oil, egr cooler, sensors, turbo and on and on. God help you if you get a little age on your engine and it starts burning a little oil or you have a turbo failure.
This is correct. We also have JD 744K we had the same company do a delete for us. The only issue with JD deleting is that you can not use the CAT diagnostic adapter. We had to purchase Nexiq usb link 2 adapter. I also have to say that Komatsu is not a lot better than CAT, they have Cummins engines and they suffer from same problems. Planning to delete one Komatsu soon.
It's nonsense yall wouldn't believe this. Cat machines have been deleted successfully since 2009! No lights no codes no problems at all! Just remove hard parts and win flash in new off road files
All the cool kids are doing it.
Not going to dredge up a 5 year old thread on a topic that is frowned upon here on HEF. It's against US law and as long as it is against the law, HEF is not going to be a place to encourage it. Thread closed.