Hi All, I'm looking into some drainage issues I'm having at my property. There are a few holes where water is bubbling up during a heavy rain and has washed soil along with it, so I'm trying to make a plan on how to address the repairs. Option 1 would be to fix the existing tile (clay and plastic, depends on location). Option 2 would be to make an open ditch or swale. Option 2 is appealing because there are at least 5 to 6 areas of tile which have collapsed and I believe the existing 6" tile is undersized for the water that it is collecting from my property and receiving from upstream neighbors. The tile invert is roughly 2 feet deep and maintains that depth along the run from east to west as the property naturally slopes toward the creek. I sketched out the rough topography and existing clay/plastic tile (red) and the creek which I assume it feeds into on the west side of the property (blue). For a point of reference, the length of the red line is roughly 500 feet. My question is whether there are any significant downsides to the ditch / swale option that I'm not considering. There would be a fair amount of dirt to move but the existing tile is in bad shape and most of it likely needs to be replaced anyhow (condition and possibly undersized).
It will require constant maintanance. The weeds will fill it in and clog it up quickly with that handy water supply.
Double check you aren’t going to screw your neighbors. Based on the picture it doesn’t seem like it as it looks to be natural runoff, however once they see a machine problems will “appear” with them as they did with me a few years ago.
I would redo the drain tile, sized larger for the correct anticipated flow. As short of a run as it is you could run one near your existing tile and run another section at the 995 grade. I think running a swale in that situation just looks bad, and as stated you will have to maintain it. I would prefer not to see it....of course that is subjective.
I think the swale idea is a lot easier and if you put some good stone in it, it’s just mowing the lawn as long as there is not water in it. Myself, I’d rather look at a nice snake than deal with pipe and cleaning.
From what I know only one neighbor ties into the drain for his septic and sump pump. He had mentioned his septic outflow backing up occasionally, and that it may tie into the line I’m looking at repairing. I had mentioned to him is collapsed it is collapsed in a few areas and I was looking to fix it in the future. If I let him know what my plans are and when I plan to work on the line, I don’t think there will be much of a problem from him. On top of that, replacing sections of the line can only make it better I would think.
That’s why the swale option was interesting to me, but the cost of rock might be substantially more than pipe.
Septic tied into tile line? Might have been legal back when, but wouldn't be here today. Why rock? You have so little slope grass would be fine. Your problem is not enough slope.
It’s legal around here. I just had a septic installed two years ago and it was approved for on-lot discharge. My septic discharges into the same tile run after treatment (primarily UV). Rock for looks more than anything, not erosion control. But you’re right, grass could be another option.
I just meant rock for a firm bottom to the swale and possibly side’s depending on cut. You don’t want a mud hole if you’re growing grass.
Water bubbling up, when you have clay or cement tile, COULD just be that the outlet is plugged or partially plugged. Are you sure it’s actually broken? Some old field tile made sink holes, turned out the water backed up, and came to the surface, as it slowly drained back down, it took the dirt and left a hole. Solution was to clean the outlet. Just a thought.
^ put some time into investigating the repair of existing. 6" will carry a lot of water when it is clean.
That’s what I was thinking at first, a blocked outlet. After probing around with a shovel I’m 100% certain the tile is broke in a few places where it bubbles up. My septic and sump pump tie in to the main tile, which is downstream from the broken clay section. There seems to be no issue during heavy rain. I’ve never seen it back up, even in a storm producing 4” in 2-3 hours. The other issue I’m having is I have no idea where the outlet is. The best way that I can think of is taking a probe and finding the tile every 10-15 ft.
If it is broken somewhere, dig it up and see if you can put a fish tape up it. You need to go the right direction on jointed tile so you get by the joints. If that works, then get a copper single strand wire and put a signal in it and locate that signal. I have the professional gear at work to use, but I think it would work with something like this. https://www.amazon.com/F02-Underground-Locator-Tracker-Earphone/dp/B01GDZLZOU/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WRm0iRobaqJUvRpxY8xPO9KDH9j6z4qAvWcKbtc_Sz63QjPOuL5SnntoA9Yn1yEcdLKeFt8qEZirNv9FIr3oanJL20eBN3-5Tc4BZkjzsZw7b26kYyifxUU9w4nPhrOiy9-bIq8rKmJpd4tkq9PJCUoYx61XpF2_ky5t-qQ0NYBotHgRozhMMNsq1VVlsP86lehufP0wN2EpNuM-FW_ijTDarPTPfG6XQPUG9leffh8.egGInWclDbsgAnrhwjJEc4g7INYSEYIEsf702LybBLg&dib_tag=se&keywords=underground+wire+tracer&qid=1710604859&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1 Be sure to tape off the end of the wire so it is not grounded to the fish tape or anything, then it will carry a signal. Once you get started then it will get easier to extrapolate the run. Put in tall fence posts right over it so you can sight down them, and leave them there forever. You can then say it is not worth fixing or you will just locate and fix it as you go.
To Skyking1's point, you can also call a septic tank pumper, or some plumbers, they typically have a cable camera that has a locator on it. Here they will come out for a couple hundred dollars, and you could see the problem and locate where the problem is. If your pricing is similar to mine, that would be an easy way of seeing the condition of the pipe and have a better idea of what the issue is.
I was appealing to the DIY aspect but yes, that would be good. Dig up as many places as possible to get into it with the camera first, as we bill by the hour.
From your pic it looks like tree roots might be the cause of your problem. They will plug a tile in a surprisingly short amount of time.
One thing I have done with field tile is to dig up with a backhoe, both ways from where there is a blow hole. Maintain the grade while removing the old tile and drop new tile in as I go. You will definitely find where the outlet is doing that. I have found lateral lines doing that and never knew they existed.
Yes as @bam1968 pointed out, tree roots are killers with jointed tile pipe. If it is all put into plastic gasketed or glued pipe, that problem goes away. It is a big job either way.
Thanks for the comments. This leads the discussion in another direction…should the replacement tile be corrugated, dwv, gasketed? As far as the main line, I’d assume it is solid and the laterals are the perforated?
I know they talk about everything as "tile" due to how it is used, but for me tile is only that clay or concrete pipe with short lengths and bell and hub with no gasket or seal. Everything else is "pipe" to me. you can call it a tile line all you want but when it comes in 13's or 20's, that's pipe. I'd do SDR gasketed myself. The tree roots only kill that open joint concrete or clay. I have replaced lots of old side sewers with that stuff. Roots, it wears right through on the bottom, the bell bottom breaks off and displaces, you name it. The worst thing is Orangeburg but you'll never see that. (crossed fingers)
Interesting.. You could clean, camera and map your line to access condition. If you find roots then jet the line with a warthog head say 4000 lbs pressure and 8 or so gpm. this will cut those nasty roots out. After that, video then line the pipe with semi flex 3mm liner using an inverter. (see small drain inversion lining) After curing you will have a new pipe end to end.. no seams so no water loss so no new roots! Plants, trees look for water, no water leakage no more roots. Not to mention minimal excavation and ground disturbance.
While the tile lining sounds like a good idea, I know for certain there are a several areas of broken tile and one area where the 6” corrugated is flattened out. I do own a 6 ton excavator and skid steer so digging it up wouldn’t cost much more than material and fuel.
I’m assuming the run of pipe should be perforated as well? I’m a little unclear as to where the pipe should be perforated and where it should be solid.
It can be solid the entire length of the run. Unless standing water on the surface needs to be eliminated quickly. If the swale is covered with grass I would think surface water won't be a problem. It may delay you from mowing it for a couple of days. IMHO. In your situation I would prefer 6" solid pvc either glued or gasket-ed.
Standing water can be an issue depending on the amount of rain. Would having a section of perforated pipe that runs for 50 ft or so and then switches back to solid be a good way to handle the surface water? I would run the solid pipe when getting close to trees to avoid root intrusion. Or another route could be running perforated pipe next to / perpendicular to the main solid pipe line. The perf line would tie into the solid.
I would run perf through out the area that sees water pooling. The water will percolate where it can and run in the pipe when there is too much water to be absorbed. You can run solid where you are not needing to absorb water. You would likely want to run pipe that is wrapped in fabric and surrounded by washed rock depending on what the soil conditions are.
Here in northern Ohio we have heavy clay and water doesn’t do a great job of percolating through the soil. I’ve been researching what people in this area use and it’s all over the place - gravel and pipe in filter fabric, gravel and pipe only (no fabric), or even pipe bedded in sand with no gravel. Ground cover (native soil / grass) in all these cases seems to be about 6”. Gravel used is #57 limestone.
If your in clay, you can run clean 3/4 rock or whatever rock from within 6" of grass grade down to the perf pipe, or if your good with the gravel exposed on top, you can forget about the 6" of topsoil.