My bob tail dump is a 1979 International with a 466B (round injector pump), an Allison automatic, and a two speed rear axle. It started life as a public works park department truck and I got it with mileage around 62,000 & 8900 hours. In the 17 years owned - put on 17,000 miles: about 1000 miles per year. Best year was 1500 miles! Economy w less work lowered annual miles to around 500. Today it has 79,000 miles and 9900 hours. I change all the filters regularly, monitor the green traditional 50/50 coolant and add a little inhibitor now and then, change the engine oil about every year and have done intermittent but regular oil analysis samples with no adverse findings. Here in the 'other than 49' State, we have to do opacity testing (well, there is an exemption for one truck owners but I had it done a couple times just to see) and it passes but is near the limit. Smoke, if any, is seen is black on acceleration or lugging, never blue or white. Crankcase blow tube at idle shows small wisps once well heated up, cant say I looked at it under a load. A truck repair shop about 150 miles away is the closest location for a test involving a chassis dyno and a flowmeter to check blowby and that is too far away as we are local insured only and truly that would be a long boring ride, so I never had the engine tested for that item. I admittedly have been following the "if it runs it must be ok" philosophy when it comes to the fuel injectors and related parts. This goes against my grain and I am in the process of tooling up with an OTC compression tester and an injector puller from Kiene. The Event: Last weekend, doing a skip loader move w my trailer, was cruising at 50 to 55 on a two lane flat black top road, a notably loud tapping sound suddenly manifested .... so I looked at gauges: oil pressure and temps fine ... nothing leaking etc etc so I limped the three miles to the destination, dropped the skip and the trailer and limped it home the 10 miles at around 40 mph and 1800 rpm where the noise was minimal. Oil press and temps ok all the way. Next day while cold, a startup showed the 55 psi oil pressure but the sound was heard almost right away. In about a minute of running it was quite easy to hear. I had sent a sample to the oil lab with the reason 'sudden noise' and they say it shows the glycol is in the oil since the sodium and potassium are high. The analysis also shows some aluminum which they indicated could be piston wear. but nothing to indicate bearing failure. We may have to add a quart or two of coolant over the summer and never see a drip or a leak. The oil fill dipstick certainly shows no foam or condensation at the cap but I know that is a sign of a very bad leak. I should note the truck has always had an oil leak at the head gasket which I don't like to continually clean the mess, but "everyone says" not to worry about it since the dipstick range hardly changes before the next oil change although lately the leak is increasing and it might need a quart or two to make it to the annual oil change. My next step is to pull the injectors & the valve cover and do a compression check and also drop off the injectors at the fuel injection shop. I have a oilpan gasket if I need to look at the bottom end as well. Any suggestions would be appreciated ... some say it could be a problem with an injector, others say rod knock. I guess the eventual scenario would involve pulling the cylinder head and looking at the sleeves as well as the rod caps and if that shows the need .... maybe an inframe might patch it along. The longterm operational plan is to run the truck as long as the 1000 mile maximum mileage limit from CARB is in place....right now we are allowed 5000 miles annually but that is only for two more years. Then it goes to 1000 miles annually which will pretty much work for me as it sure is nice to have the truck 'in the fleet' for the misc small job tasks and not have to work for the rental truck schedule. Certainly not looking forward to a newer truck with an emission motor with all the attendant repair costs of the emission system but not wanting to get off subject into that horrid CARB debate. Should have tools by next week and will update as the process goes along. Some dilemma w attachments, reason for edit deleted same.
Looks like the oil analysis pdf file didnt load properly?
One oil analysis isn't going to be that helpful. I'd loosen each injector line at the injector to see if the noise goes away more on on one particular cylinder, before you pull the injectors. If the noise doesn't go away completely when the line is loosened, then it's almost certainly mechanical, right?
This injector topic is one of the items that I should prolly have diligently maintained .... have heard some folks cite events where the theory is the injector allows some of the fuel to go into the cylinder and thus the cylinder pre-ignites (almost like too early timing) and the result is some serious knocking sounds. Wouldn't that be nice to finally get the injectors 'tuned/repaired' and the awful sound vanishes?
These are good engines, I suspect though from a length of time and minimal use you have a liner eaten thru wall or a failed head/head gasket. You will most likely find a scored piston due to antifreeze intrusion. Best scenario in frame, worst case drag it out and major overhaul. If do get that AMBAC pump gone thru as they were weak after the 100,000 mile mark and lost HP/torque curve.
The OTC compression tester arrived one day early and we await the injector puller from Kiene....meanwhile, we put a 15psig test using air on the cooling system, in a few minutes we saw a little leak on a radiator hose clamp, so we tightened it up, kicked dry gravel over the wet spot in the yard, then pushed it up to 15 then went home. Twelve hours later it was down to 1 psig and the little 'pressurized coolant reservoir' tank was empty - and no wet spots on the dry gravel. Next we are thinking to pull those injectors and do a compression test and now we think we should drain the coolant as well drain the oil to get out all the coolant and then maybe pull the oil pan.... but if we want to look at the bottom of the liners to see if there is a leak, should we put the injectors back in and then refill the coolant to check the leak? we are worried the coolant may be in the combustion chamber that is why we want to pull the injector but to further complete out diagnosis, maybe we have to refill the coolant and reinstall the injectors and press it up again. Or do we just figure do an inframe to get the benefit of the new liners with the new seals and have the head checked and injector sleeves replaced....
Roll it over by hand before you use the starter in case the coolant is all in one cylinder. I'd still do the "injector cut out test", also keep the injectors in order so you can tell what cylinder you're dealing with. Why drain the coolant until you need to? The coolant leak isn't hurting anything until you run it.
Yes I agree 100% on the cranking it over a couple turns by hand before touching the starter. If there is any chance of a coolant leak into one of the cylinders you do not want to chance using the starter. Even if you were lucky and the engine locked up before starting you could still do damage to a rod if it was to come up hard in a hydro-static lock condition when cranking over with the starter!
Thanks much for the suggestions to cautiously bar the engine by hand before lighting off the starter. The UPS just came today with the Kiene injector puller. As to "Why drain the coolant before pulling injectors?" - it is because I am thinking the clamping force on the injector is being applied to the inside lower portion (return or lip) of the injector sleeve (sometimes called cup?) and we were worried if we loosened the injector, the "sleeve to head joint" would leak some coolant. In looking at the section diagrams it looks like the injector seals to the inside of the cup with a copper washer and the cup seals to the head water jacket - all together kind of like a sandwich .... or are we being overly cautious on this point? There should be some sealant but maybe it is weakened from age?
I remember seeing antifreeze get into the engine oil from leaking injector sleeves and sometime cracks between the pressed part of the sleeve in the combustion chamber part of the head and into one of the valve seats. The cups or coppers as they were know around here could also leak at the top allowing coolant to seep into the oil that way. You can tell if that is happening because there will be coolant covered by oil in any nooks and crannies on the top of the head. Just pull the valve cover to check for that. Sometimes there will be a soft plug where the coolant will collect. You should pull the valve cover in any case when checking for leaks while you put pressure on the cooling system. The coppers should hold cooling system pressure without the injectors installed. When we rebuilt the heads we had a test bench where the head was pressurized to about twenty PSI to make sure they didn't leak.
Been a few years since I touched a DT466, but aren't the injectors and injector tubes outside of the valve cover?
Good catch! I had forgotten that.
The 466 E was HEUI like a Powerstroke or Cat engine but not even thought of in 1979.
Nozzle seat washers are to seal compression, should not be a problem with them out and leave coolant in as can replace nozzles with engine cooling systems intact.
Progress slow but here is a report. We last reported the engine failed the pressure test of the cooling system and the level in the tank went down to zero. Decided to drain the oil and this was further confirmed as a good idea as the dipstick level was way over full, hmmm. Upon opening the oil drain plug, pure pretty green antifreeze poured out just like the radiator was being drained for a few seconds, this item followed by the crankcase oil. I would say we "recovered" 3 (three) gals of coolant from the crankcase. And we didn't start it since doing that pressure test. Hard to believe so much coolant leaked into the crankcase from the test while so little was lost during the level checks when we infrequently drove it: wonder if that knocking sound is related to this 'internal leak'.
Sounds like a liner issue. It probably has either a pin hole or split or liner o-rings leaking. That noise is from a scuffed piston in that leaking liner. Drop the pan and look up at the liners you will probably see coolant drops hanging from the bottom of the cylinder plus look for a scuffed bore. With pan off re-pressurize the cooling system you will see where the coolant is coming from for sure. Truck Shop
Was wondering how one may go about getting parts for this project? Being in construction, I am accustomed to pulling into the lumber yard and the truck loaded & tied/secured and ticket signed in a short time....at the auto parts store one can call in or email a parts list or if one goes to the store, one can help with the selection of the part as they show the screen w picture &/or description to you. At the local international dealer, molasses in the artic pours faster and they dont let you look at the computer and they have a hard time selecting the part. I have the overhaul manual but I dont have a parts breakdown. Any suggestions of where to get me some good parts? And while I am asking, how would I know a good brand of overhaul kit from another one? * Level of effort wise, I am leaning to pulling the engine and may want to get a long block from a rebuilder but until I take a look at my "core" I wont know. Am figuring pulling the engine will provide a better job just because not wanting to hop around the engine compartment for one reason and the other reason is the ability to work and do the replacement of all the parts as well as cleaning etc. The inframe thing has me worried we may miss something being this is the initial experience. And the engine being worked on 'in the yard' in spite of the nice weather from SoCal just doesn't seem quite right.
I always preferred out of frame on internally damaged engines. Cleaning is easier as well more thorough while a well worn engine just needing minimal freshen up overhaul I would do in frame. Look to replace cam bushings, any accessory mount engine driven bushings and having the oil riflings cleaned out under pressure with having had particle metal sent thru the old engine. Do you have a heavy truck supply company around you close by? Many of these have access to full engine 'kits' and dependable repair parts otherwise stuck with IH. I used Plaza Fleet Parts in St. Louis for years, do not believe they still carry as much any longer.
With only 79 to 80,000 on it in 38 years that isn't much. Personally I would inframe it, It's an easy engine to work on. The deck surface on the block is probably ok. You will find the liner o-rings deteriorated with age. As long as the front crank seal which is where the oil pump is located is dry along with the rear crank seal I wouldn't worry too much. And rolling in a set of bearings is pretty easy. As far as a kit International use to offer a kit called the {Works} very complete at a competitive price. IMO use OEM parts. My 2 cents. Truck Shop
Thanks for the suggestions...soon will have the results of the pan inspection etc. We get busy with customers and shop work backs up. As far as the miles go those are pretty low, does 9900 hours become the issue? or is it probably simply the age of the gaskets/liner seals etc. Here is one perception: if a truck has a 'doghouse' in the cab and a short hood [where the engine is located sort of through the firewall], does this sway the decision toward removing the engine? Other ideas to go along with the inframe: The seats can be removed to allow better access to the doghouse area in the cab and the front wheels removed and a plank or step located alongside to also assist with accessing the engine.
If its a set back front axle, short nose, where the engine is 1/2 under the firewall and in the dog house, I probably wouldn't try to fix it with it in the truck. I find myself always touching the firewall or rapping on something and dirt and crud from the firewall falls down into the engine. If it was in a big long hood with the engine out and exposed, that's a little different. I have a big A frame gantry and forklifts etc., so its not too difficult for me to pull a engine. If all you have is a big tree and a come- a long, that would change. Depending on how much you use the truck, I would consider a used/ junkyard motor. If you need it running, and can pull the motor, you could just have a different motor there and go back together. Used motors are like used trucks, you don't know what you're getting. But I always figure the motor made it to the accident. I guess one other question, I see you're in california, is it worth spending the $ on a truck that the state isn't going to let you use? Or are you under their mileage restrictions?
I know I'd be looking at a used engine. If you buy the whole vehicle, you can drive it to see how it runs and take a look before it's been pressure washed. Around here stuff with that engine is rusted out and cheap, I don't know how it is in CA, maybe they're getting forced out by the greenies and you can get a smooth running engine cheap? If it starts easy, runs smooth appropriate for the temp, and hasn't been pressure washed then you can get a good enough guess of what it's like.
We have a rolling gantry with a trolley and chain fall to remove the engine as well a forklift to place it inside the shop. The state diesel rule category for this truck is 5000 miles per year through 2019 and then 1000 miles per year thereafter. I believe this is termed "captive attainment" The cost per mile analysis shows "fix or replace the engine" as economically preferred compared to replacing the truck - that is because if I replace it, I have to get a 2010 engine or newer due to the aforementioned emission rules. These newer "computer trucks" seem to cost a notable amount for repairs. Am not thinking a big change will occur in the local economy so I figure the occasional use jobs that I now do is the predicted future usage. Rental is really bad as all the contractors (once they got a little busy) placed equipment on long term rental so when one finds a rental it has to be reserved and then adhere to the schedule, whereas owning means we go when we want to go. Hope these economic choices help shed some light on the plight and thanks for assist with the "pull" or "inframe".
Recognizing the lack of progress on my part due to other pressing work, and a couple inquiry/discussions with the service bay manager at the international dealer, in mid December he convinced me to let his shop start down the repair road called an inframe...it took a bit of research for parts because the s/n of the truck is so old it won't create a search in the corporate parts system but after some emails to corporate he is convinced he can get OEM parts called a "works kit". To get the truck ready, we removed all our goodies and tools and we scrupulously cleaned the chassis and engine work area which was embarrassingly terrible due to the head gasket weeping oil for many years. The holidays now past, should be able to more easily coordinate a tow (about 15 miles) to their shop from my yard where I last limped it. * Being located in an 'emission state' (name withheld since likely already known) the usage of the truck is limited to 5000 miles per year for 2018 and 2019 and then 1000 miles annually thereafter. A newer truck would not have these mileage limits: during my "time of no progress" I evaluated using my repair funds toward a newer truck that fully meets emissions (later than 2010 engine) but since I want to skip past International's emission sojourn (EGR only w/ no DEF), I have to look all the way to 2015 to get a class 6 or 7 International with a Cummins and other truck manufacturers don't have the dealer support in this area [which I feel is even more important due to the emission equipment computers etc on the newer trucks]. Regardless of mfg, this solution is more $ than avail so I repair.
That's a hard decision to spend that kind of $, with the restrictions that the state will put on the use of the truck. Will you sell it after 2019, or just keep it for limited use? I'm sure that would be a expensive 1000 miles by the time you figured insurance and plates. Is there a reduction in the registration rates for the limited mileage?
What about just finding a good enough running takeout 466 and dropping it in there instead for those kind of low miles per year?
Before putting the unit in a dealer bay I would suggest everything be put in writing as far as costs and what they are allowed to do. It's pretty common to get a $5,000 "estimate" and then getting a $10,000 bill.
Can understand the CA ******** rules, buddy of mine can no longer enter CA with his "Antique" "high emissions" 1995 Pete with a Series 60 Detroit. The state put him on notice as of his last entry they would no longer be allowing such heavy pollutant machines inside the state borders. He swings it by having a in-state hauler bring his loads into AZ where he simply does a drop and pick the empty going into CA. He also does NOT have the CA required aerodynamic devices that are supposed to increase fuel mileages so drastically(more BS). He figures he adds around $500 to each load for the excess expenses but they do get added to his customer invoices. CA, A great State to ignore and stay out of, I was born there, have little desire to return and see it again.
This. PenCool is a must in these.
So....who keeps track of the miles on a low use vehicle in CA? is it self reporting? pretty sure I could keep that truck under the 1000 miles.
It was self reporting when I did it, that was only when all this was starting, I know I had to install a hub meter on one truck because the odo. was broke.
Thanks folks for understanding the strange and of course disheartening economics of diesel engines in this state. For now we self log but from a regulatory view when one stands back and sees the great number of newer trucks 'roaming around on the highways' and in the fuel stops etc and also when I pay invoices for hauling (big hourly fees), it is fairly obvious the older trucks are reduced to a smaller and smaller minority. Electronic logs are "in the system" for newer rigs and fleets as we have all learned a bit about the ELD mandates. But to be specific, compliant trucks don't need to log and report miles. My mileage is low enough because the jobs that I get as a General Contractor involve longer duration at a given site - we aren't hauling a backhoe to two jobs in one day for example. And the dump truck itself is more of a wheelbarrow of convenience (LOL) than it is a production rig. Yes indeed I would like to get a newer truck with the better stopping power air brakes and will seek/thinking/musing of searching for a day cab w a Cummins to convert to my replacement bobtail rig. That idea is on the vista for future plans. A fellow GC believes in the get a new late model 1 ton diesel and a tandem dual fifth wheel dump - but his capital investment is way over the cost of my bobtail truck and some of his repair bills for new injectors and new dashboard gage panel indicators and DEF tank sensor and EGR valve service strike fear in me (they are usually almost half as much as this inframe is slated to be). ~~~ As to the question about the replacement engine, due to something called Captive Attainment we have been required to report the VIN and the engine s/n and don't believe the engine can be replaced. The shop boss says the mileage at 80,000 miles is so low that is clearly worth fixing via to him simple in-frame process ..... Status we ruthlessly cleaned the engine last weekend, removed all of our tools and goodies.... it was towed to the service bay yesterday; they will pull the pan and determine some issue about bearing sizes and then get the correct parts kit ordered from the factory. Will keep ye posted and lets hope there aren't any hidden curve balls that upset the plan to do this repair....this one follows the nothing ventured nothing gained what does the future hold protocol LOL.
Local rucking company has a lot of newer machines, not keeping up with the Jones's they ARE the Jones and rotate often to keep maintenance overhead down. Having warranty claims and dubious parts sales pricing issues right now, may be dropping a cab line due to that. DOC system on ISX Cummins causing fits, was told a warranty cleaning was needed then as that failed a replacement DOC filter necessary but not warranty $4900 parts, received a bill for another Older truck with similar system and SAME p/n DOC, part billed on that was $1900 HIGHER. Someone is padding bills not expecting to be caught. I am still NOT convinced the newer machines are all the much 'Better' just more accepted by agencies that do not understand beyond tailpipe emissions.
Got to see the insides: one piston is sorely abused. All pistons under the crown show no sign of overheating and the combustion side had not too much carbon, the liner seals seem stiff but found none broken or cracked, exterior of the sleeve showed thin layer of tightly bound corrosion and no cavitation/pitting patterns, bearings looked quite good for the 80,000 miles and the 10,000 hours on the engine...the head is at the machine shop and the injectors are at the injection specialist.... How this can happen so suddenly cruising along on a nice day on a fairly level road at 50mph with a trailer and a skip loader is quite a curiosity. Yes I agree the engine used 2 or 3 qts of 50/50 coolant over a year's passing of time. Coolant was always checked with the test strips to assure the additive was OK (green coolant from Carquest and Wix additive). As well, the oil analysis over the years past never showed the presence of coolant (glycol) until the very recent sample taken after "the event". Cant help but wonder if something else caused the piston to "cook" and the heat and banging from the piston put the finale to those sleeve seal orings?
Poston cooler plugged up?
That is a typical coolant inspired piston damage experience. Either the sleeve has a pinhole near to a seal ring or the base of the sleeve or the coolant managed to get into a combustion region. The steam from the coolant cooking off removes the oil layer on the cylinder wall. Could have been a slight leak in a intake valve port(crack) where could be sucked in or a head gasket leak on a low pressure side.
Quite interesting how that coolant in the combustion chamber creates the demise of the piston. No mercy.
Been a good read, and also need to check my 466 and probably need to add some SCA and change filter. Mine like yours sits most the time
It sure always cooks one or two about the same time. Out here it has been in the front of the engine more than the rear, from what I can remember. Almost always a pinhole at the bottom seal ring.
More erratic coolant flows at the front, turbulence, potential for cavitation increases, some electrolysis increase as the turbulence drives chemicals away from where needed? Best as memory serves me of the forward two one would be the issue.
At the latter part of this week, the shop was completing the pistons and the sleeves. They said the block looked good at the 'lands' for the cylinder registers and also where the orings sealed. They carefully measured the 'lands' and reported no sign of wear or deformation. The cylinder head was sent to a local machine shop that does these heads and they decided it needed guides, the valves ground, a very shallow surface of the sealing surface, new injector 'cup seals' and crack checked and pressure leak checked. I expect that work to be just below $2k. They reported they saw wear on some guides but no major deficiency, valves were re-used, no leaks, no loose sets etc etc. They said perhaps they could have just done some of the guides and perhaps only surfaced half the valves but they got in a pickle once by trying to cut a corner so they did it all. The fuel injectors were sent to a fuel injection shop and 5 of the 6 were all even but right at the minimum lift off pressure but one was found to be stuck open. About $750 for the injectors to be rebuilt. Some say this is what caused the knock sound and others say this also caused the piston skirt damage but I am inclined to respect the service manager at the dealer as well the sage folks on here who said the piston had a little involvement with coolant ~ And how about this: maybe that stuck injector making the knock sound saved me from driving the truck while the oil was being ruined by glycol and or that piston doing more damage that could have resulted in a unsalvageable carcass. Sadly I dont know if the stuck injector was in the same cylinder with that damaged piston and others have asked about the head gasket and the as found torque but these details are not known. ~~~~ When next week arrives, I will be given the old parts and I can show some pics of the sleeves etc. ******** The shop total I am surmising will be the $8500 and maybe the time ran over so will see how much over it goes....plus the head work and the injectors I can see this being around $11 to $12k which is a far cry better than the replacement cab and chassis vehicle at $33k w the egr international scandal engine or $55k for the cummins in an international. Pls recall I am in a 'usage controlled' society (CARB) where these diesel engines seem to be under scrutiny for air pollution, and other locales may not make the same decisions. Thusly I thank all ye for the kind advice and offerings of knowledge and experience. This process perhaps I could have muddled through it but I have often found the first time doing is best served of course by studying the subject well but then hiring or contracting the work and then observing the process. Then if there is a next time that much wiser I will be. Addenda about smoke opacity testing: Just learned last week, the smoke testing rules are getting revised....they were 55 max for older engines and 40 for newer but if one owned only a single diesel vehicle they were exempt: but now the proposal is all diesels over 6000 gvw get smoke tested. The new max is 40 and the newest engines with the DEF are 5. Yikes! And I saw a new diesel in a red cab truck w transfer - they had literally painted the inside of the stacks at the tip/flare to be the same color red as the cab and there was no black soot on that red tip. Like the guy with the immaculate 34 roadster said: "it is all about being cool and cool costs a lot of money". In this case clean diesel costs a lot of money. I guess I will learn if the rebuild changes the smoke opacity test because I did have it done a couple times and it barely passed at like 53 and these results are after changing the oil and a good hard run up a small hill with a load.
Fuel wash is a good definition cause for piston skirt damage.
Indeed I am now properly tooled to remove the injectors and have them serviced regularly, and I also get the idea of the sleeve in the head. All the piston crowns looked the same and no knicks or damage to the corner of the crown. the one piston with the lines seemed to 'only' have damage from the bottom ring downward. I have been thinking perhaps 1) servicing of injectors as well as 2) cooling system pressure testing w vigilant radiator cap maintenance should be accomplished as well as checking for fluid levels and the corrosion inhibitor concentration; or if not, it might just be the usual story of "drive er until it balks, then hope ya can salvage".
I would just keep check using the strips. Don't see the engine or the injectors needing anything for a long time so long as the fuel filters gets changed when needed. With the compliance issues getting tighter, it might not be long before you can no longer use the truck, sure hope not. Guess if it does get to bad, you could sell it in another state.
If not equipped can add a coolant filter then still use the strips where the filters are time release chemicals.
The truck has one of those coolant filters and I have always been diligent on coolant and the chemistry. I aim to get a better coolant system pressure check and a coolant system cap check in order to keep the system at the higher pressure to also help reduce cavitation issues. ~~~~ Truck was done last week and I had to arrange for a ride but we were super busy with other tasks so I had the opportunity to pick it up yesterday Saturday morning - looks like something is leaking coolant based upon the lower radiator pressure tank level, I am thinking the water pump as i never changed it and the seal may have been affected by sitting dry....they did a trick where they brought it over near their shop and started it up to warm it up then placed a piece of cardboard with a rock underneath and then they can roll around with the creeper and a flashlight to see where the leak is and yes there was some coolant so I will learn about this tomorrow Monday. When I started it, the engine promptly came to life and immediately idled and there was almost no smoke -previously on the cooler days it may have had a very minimal almost invisible blue hue for a minute or two, and never white. I have been told the smoke on some startups compared to other where no smoke is due to a fuel injector that may have had the engine randomly halt in one location where the injector happens to be pressurized and over the duration of being parked it leaks by the internal seat and drips liquid fuel, and then when started it takes a minute to 'clear out'. The idea of injector maintenance (to help remove them I have that new puller tool) and the cooling system actions mentioned above are being added to my PM list for all equipment except for the wonderful Deutz air cooled in the compactor - no worries about coolant on that machine LOL.
Easiest point I ever remembered as a mechanic, four stroke 4 cylinder engines will usually stop in one of two locations(+/- a few ring gear teeth) a six in one of three and an eight in one of four. That said a Detroit just doesn't care!!
A suggestion if I may..... In one of your earlier posts you mentioned the presence of sodium & potassium in the oil analysis, and that you were using SCA. To be best of my knowledge an “old-fashioned” DEAC topped up with SCA will show sodium in case of a coolant leak into the engine oil. The newer generation of ELC coolants will show potassium in case of a leak. I find it strange that your sample showed the presence of both. Are you sure that someone didn’t tip some ELC into the cooling system by accident..?
From the analysis report: the Sodium is 317 and the Potassium is 139; Water & Antifreeze are Positive. Our shop supports only one extended life coolant, a GMC pickup. The color is orange. Containers are different too. Have always bought the same brand(s) respectively to make sure less confusion. The coolant additive is added based upon the results from those strips and the (M)SDS for that coolant additive from Wix also shows no Potassium....mystery? cant say it couldnt happen but I do the maint on the truck....any other way to get high potassium like this? Maybe this time I was successful in attaching a scan of that oil sample.
Somehow at some time a ELC had to have been inadvertently slipped in as a top off, they are about the only coolants that use Potassium Formates or Potassium Acetates, metallic salts in them. Maybe from a drain container or reused coolant jug that had residual ELC in it and was accidentally added, would not take much.
Thanks for the confirmation DM. TBH if it was me I'd be using ELC in everything. No mixing, no supplemental additives, no test strips, and best of all a coolant life of 12,000 hours or 1 million km of operation.
I am aware of a BUNCH of people converting older machines to ELC as they go thru overhaul. Ditch the filters, stop using the additives, just await the hours drain and refill, while still toxic to environment when fresh the ELC does degrade over time where becomes less and less a problem.
For the curious, the estimate went over a bit and the injectors were done elsewhere so the total amount for all the outside shops and with all new fluids and filters etc etc was right about $10k. Around a bit more than half of this was parts or specialized services (head work, injectors). I am glad I was able to get OEM parts - we have heard some sickening debacles due to inferior parts. Thanks to everyone for the advice: I know we are in an emission 'corral' here and that changes the way we must conduct business. ~ On Saturday, drove truck home from repair shop (about 12 miles), we went thru town and then on two lane 'less traveled roads' to vary the speed, went up to 50 mph once but mostly 45. No highway (freeway) yet. "Escort" (my ride to the shop) said the truck smoked very little, only a little puff when the auto shifted up into the next gear. Got to my yard/shop and checking things, thought I could hear a quasi knock sound, not very loud but random like a 'something' bouncing around in an air duct from the fan wash....careful look could find nothing loose. There were No Leaks which is very nice especially after having that head gasket weep all those years. The next day, I disconnected the belts from the brake vacuum pump and the power steering pump, and with only the water pump and alternator in operation the noise was gone. Did notice over an 1/8" of [easy to move and make a notable clunk sound] axial play on the power steering pump, no radial play. Also now that the engine is clean and I can see any drip, I noticed the p/s pump has two studs poking through the back side into a slot in a fixed bracket and once these nuts are loosened the reservoir commences dripping power steering fluid. What a curious arrangement. Maybe the axial play and the leaks around those studs means it should be rebuilt? Am thinking the noise was from the pump endplay banging back and forth that 1/8 inch. I never usually look at the edge of a rotating pulley cause they always seem to run untrue but from now on I will watch the end of the shaft to see if it shows endplay in operation. I have a email to the shop service manager to see if there are rebuilt units and will look in the manual to see why the studs leak as soon as they are loosened during the belt tensioning process.
If it is the set up I can remember the studs are sealed with washers inside the reservoir when if loosened and old will seep. P/S pump inline shaft movement is pretty much normal if not excessive. I cannot remember IH spec on that movement.
The dealer service manager was on vacation and then when he returned the parts dept did some inquiries in and out of their 'system' and concluded the pump had to be sent to an 'out of franchise' rebuilder they have had good experience with....meanwhile I was distracted [adding to delay] so maybe today I will pull the pump and send it for rebuilding. About $450.
careful inspection of the pump casting revealed some id numbers which traced to an Eaton 'B' pump and thus was able to locate a few sources via internet search, however, initial perusal shows the pump is inserted into a sheet metal canister & sealed by an oring; this is where I can see how the internal studs push against the inside of the housing and the final tightening against the mount would help to keep that area sealed. Mechanic friend agreed the end play (axial) meant little in spite of me reporting the knocking/tapping due to belt flap, however he could detect radial play and seeing the weeping on the shaft, he recommended: Rebuild it.
Found a rebuilder that doesn't have a "one price for a steering pump" and that is where it is going. If I just need some seals that is all that I pay for. Said pump has the thinnest washers on the inside of that housing, it is amazing that it doesn't leak more. Since this forum thread is about tapping and knocking and the latest (comparatively minor) tapping noise is from the power steering pump, and since it is being investigated for tapping due to the end play coincident with the normal belt flapping, I am thinking the resolution of the steering pump will be a good builtin appendix of this thread?
Used to reseal these as a routine, in the 80's. IH Had kits in stock for them for less than $100, included the two plasticized steel washers and the major quad ring with the smaller seal rings for screw in fittings. End play up to .020 was very normal new, had seen up to .040 ad still in tolerance. As I remember there was a refit to add flanged nuts/longer studs and stagger the rear mount for clearance to those so the canister did not get disturbed when repositioning.
Pump went via the USPS to the rebuilder shop yesterday. fyi Between the pump and the mount I found two spacers (3/4"+ OD by the 3/8 ID {to fit over the stud threads})....maybe about 3/8" in length. Was thinking to simply turn a heavy hex 3/8 fastener that had a flange washer face to [purpose] thin it down ....but the flat to flat dim on that over the counter item nut is a little small compared to the bearing area of the spacer....so, might just get a piece of round cold rolled and bore and tap the center to 3/8"....then adding a couple flats with the mill, or maybe a hole for a spanner wrench, will allow me to put some snug clamping force on the new inner reservoir sealing washers that are getting installed in the reservoir. All this done before mounting the pump/reservoir to the engine. I could also replace the 3/8 studs made from a piece of B7 allthread....wonderful material is that ASTM A193/194 grade B7 [quenched and tempered CrMo steel] and pretty easy to obtain from reputable supply houses. The inner reservoir sealing washers have to do all work as sealing around a thread is a good challenge & oft difficult trick, but the anaerobic materials will be utilized .... thanks DMiller for recalling some of these details as these trucks fade into history....I do occasionally show my truck at the local ATHS truck show as a working 'antique'. Will be nice to go this year to the Central Coast Cooler and allow the hood to be opened w/ no head gasket oil leak - which was minor but sure did make a mess.
Pump went to steering component rebuilder in SanJose....one part that may have been bad wasn't thus that saved waiting for parts: some internal parts 'side plates' and shaft bushing/bearing as well as seals are getting replaced. How to keep those internal seal washers from leaking will be done with some invention to those spacers. End play shall remain and is the way they made em as I be informed here as well as by the rebuilder shop.
Rebuilder returned pump, looks like they painted the pump but the reservoir is same as when shipped and I had cleaned it for transpo. No problem there, I can take care of some beauty-treatment. Pic shows the pump after cleaning it with some water based cleaner that seems to easily take off the oil to the point that the item will rust once cleaned. And paint wont fisheye; that also tells me it is clean. Cleaner has a harder time on the caked on dried type of grease and grime though. Name is Duo Power made by Chemsearch, we learned about it at a customer that keeps all their facility & equipment clean which was a good enough recommendation. Then I used a phosphate metal prep for bare or rusty metal sold at hardware store and later today will rattle can the reservoir tin w maybe some engine enamel. . As to the OEM idea for the adjustment bolts also keeping the leaks on the reservoir at bay: with a piece of round stock I recreated those spacer washers (seen on rag next to pump) with a 3/8 internal thread and put a couple flats to turn em, then made a 1/64 thick sheet gen purpose gasket with trusty form a gasket from permatex and that is all assembled and snugged up on those studs.
Should do just fine!
Made a couple short haul runs last week and there are no leaks. Curiously (as to the end play observations), on the bench coming back from the steering rebuilder the pump shaft axial play is still noticeable and I was informed this was the situation with this pump as was mentioned on this forum, but observing its behavior while operating with the engine it is no longer "bouncing" in and out. Variability of belt tension could be a factor since the belts are tensioned to a point where the slack is deemed correct by pushing with the thumb, or, it simply needed to be rebuilt. The shop mentioned they replaced some 'plates', also the 'shaft bushing/bearing'..whether that did something.. hmmm. Maybe the explanation is a simple mystery or what some folks call PFM (pure something magic). And "for the file": Noticed upon removal the fluid was red and presumed it was Delco Dexron trans fluid but for refill a check with the steering rebuilder shop and they recommended 'power steering fluid' which we found a gallon jug from Valvoline (fluid is clear, slight amber) at the local parts supplier. We hand primed first the pump then secondly the steering box then lastly connected the return hose and topped it off; the fluid is now clear although there remains a hint of red.