On another forum (Welding) I keep hearing guys say that Case ductile iron, the parts labeled "DO NOT WELD" can be repaired. I have never tried it over liability concerns... Is it possible? Local Case service manager says "No". I feel he's being honest with me and I just replace the stuff. I have noticed that loader bucket dog bones are now steel replacements, maybe they learned a lesson. What say the herd?
It can be welded - using the correct rods. In saying that, it would depend on the nature of the repair & if safety was involved if the weld would fail...... hence the dealer hesitation. I have repaired dozens of Carraro front axles where the lower king pin bearings have failed, using a high percentage nickel electrode. This is a very soft metal (and expensive!!) which acts as a great filler & will not crystalize & so can be machined. I have also seen a backhoe boom break & be successfully repaired with the same electrodes. This occurred maybe 10yrs ago, the dipper pivot pin had dislodged & while swinging the boom one of the eyes at the end of the boom snapped clean in two. The broken piece was welded back in place & never had a problem with it again. Apparently, the boom repair was done without any preheating, only small amounts of weld done with cooling time in between each weld.
I have seen a case boom crack welded up and go till the machine was shot That said the guy that welded it could weld a juicy fruit wrapper together and make it look like it was nothing
You are positive this was a ductile boom or a stick? No offense to either poster here but I would like to hear (or see) a definite procedure and some proof that it can be done. Not nitpicking I would just like to have Definitive answers about this. I am no expert with cast iron but can do a good job with regular grey iron and nickel. But from research Ductile is quite the different animal as far as the graphite content.
RE the boom - Case 580SM - ductile iron Re the cararro axles - 580SK; 580SL; 580SM; - ductile iron I'm not a pro welder - but if you keep asking questions you should get the info you need. I started repairing the front axles as a matter of necessity, asked a few knowledgeable welders for some tips. Never had a repair I have done crack or break. This thread shows what can be done when you have to
Thanks, I Appreciate your input.
Welding isnt my specialty, but years ago, I spent a large amount of time in a lab studying the machinability of ductile iron from a production stand point. Learned a lot about ductile iron specifically and it's properties. As for welding of iron in general: it is possible as long as correct process is used. Wrong rods, too much heat, etc and you create a very brittle zone beside the welded area that will snap with minimal force similar to glass. @alrman Is correct about the high nickle rods. 45-55% nickle is needed. Attached is a link to a pdf download about in-field welding of ductile iron pipe. It has the pertinent information listed step by step. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dipra.org/ductile-iron-pipe-resources/technical-publications/guidelines?download=31:field-welding-and-cutting-ductile-iron-pipe&ved=2ahUKEwjb2L_rnL_gAhUMzoMKHUIcD5sQFjABegQIDRAE&usg=AOvVaw3WiyXZvVVeYL46Ac_nSEyg
Yea I am sure cause I was surprised myself I can't say I would do it I definitely dont weld that good that is actually one of the reasons I shy away from case
Thanks guys, I guess it may be possible. Just wondering about a break across a stick or something of that nature.
I'm interested what type of stick would be ductile iron. Please elaborate ...... Regarding the dog bones you might find you spend more in time and materials to repair than a new one costs. Eutectic Nucleotec 2222 high-nickel electrodes. If you want 45+% elongation, that's the boy for it. Not cheap by any means though. https://www.castolin.com/product/eutectrode-xuper-nucleotec-2222
I don't know what all models use them, but here's some pictures of a L model. Case uses a ductile iron for the boom and dipper on the backhoe and I think the dogbone arms on the loader. Cast right into the pieces is "WARNING DUCTILE IRON DO NOT WELD"
I'm sure it was for manufacturing time savings. Cast a boom out of ductile iron and machine the bores would take a lot less time than welding together a boom. It is kind of a pain though when they are 25 year old machines that have been abused hard and someone wants you to weld it all together, where its been cracked and broken over the years. I think these are all the cast pieces.
I think you're 100% correct that they are all cast. I don't generally get into "Lawns & Gardens" type stuff so it's all a bit foreign to me. I see that the equivalent structures on backhoes are fabricated and therefore are weldable. TBH I am of the opinion that Case are covering their a$$es by putting the "Do Not Weld" indications on there. Maybe the type of customer who would own a backhoe might not be very skilled at welding. I guess there is something in that. To give you an example a Cat 992G/K loader boom is cast and is weldable. I am not sure of the material, probably not ductile. There are very lengthy and detailed instructions available giving the exact procedure that must be followed in order to carry out weld repairs on it, and also detailing certain areas of the boom where it is absolutely forbidden to weld. But then again the average 992 loader owner would likely have a fully-equipped maintenance shop plus probably one or more specialist welding companies that they could call on to do welding work on cast material.
Nige I get your point and for a certain point of owners you are correct also case is the cheapest backhoe you can buy right now and has always been as long as I can remember but there are a long list of owner operators in the backhoe world that are some of the most resourceful mechanics and welders out of necessity they can't stay in business without doing all that and they are the guys that figure out how to do it cause its betting you can fix it over buying a boom you really have nothing to loose Now on the other side of that there are owner operators that dont know witch end of the wrench does what and always have payments so they have warranty As a small excavation contractor that lives and dies by the lawn and garden equipment ( I really thought that was funny) it's not in the cards to have a nice shop and specialty equipment and awesome mechanic I wouldn't be able even think of machinist or specialty welder
There are a lot of owners that do "attempt" their own welding but a large portion of them wouldn't fully comprehend that certain materials require very specific procedures in order to be properly repaired. Most of the time they are in a hurry to get their machine fixed and may not have all the tools required to do the repair. If 'it's mild steel or even cast steel it can usually tolerate certain short cuts and a less than specific procedure. You get into cast iron/ductile iron, especially on something like a backhoe boom and it's a huge liability if an attempted repair breaks.
This is why I tell the customers "Replace it". I have no issues with steel, cast or rolled... but Iron... No. Not saying I wont repair a manifold or such, but booms or sticks, no.
Welder Dave made the point I was trying to make, but far more eloquently. There are a lot of people out there owning and/or maintaining equipment whose ambition far outweighs their ability & knowledge.
Here's a couple of pics of an old Case 580D (1981 era) I came across a few years ago. The cast swing tower had been repaired by somebody??? This is before the days when Case would cast a "do not weld" sign on their equipment.
And I’m sure it’s repairs like those photos, and even worse the ones that failed catastrophically, that caused Case to put their “Do Not Weld” notice into the castings.
@Nige - Yes, but this particular old girl had done quite a few years work at the time I took the pic (2013) & is still working, albeit farm / property maintenance.
I'm betting that swing tower was cast steel, 1981 was way back before the "Do not Weld" stuff was coming out. I have repaired that cast steel stuff myself, it holds up well. Back to my original post... Has anybody here repaired a "Do Not WELD" part??? And had real success?
Cast steel is no problem but you need to know what material it is instead of guessing.
True... But in the field... and "Gotta have it now". I have done piles of repairs on Terex, Wabco, Cat, and other scraper hitches with good success. (no repeat failures) by preheat and normally 7018 if I had to use rod, or Hobart Fabco 802 or Lincoln 71M. Some of those had to be gouged 2.5-3" deep. Preheat would be 450-500 degrees Depending on how I "guessed" it. Really glad to be out of the big yellow stuff now.
I'd guess on a scraper it would be cast steel. A lot of times you can tell by how it welds or grinds, etc.
Um, yeah. Cast steels, I misunderstood your post to be about different cast steels. Ductile will tell you in a minute by how it grinds. Has that funny odor too, just like grey cast iron.
Yeah RZucker I weld repaired an outrigger on a 580 Super L about 20 years ago and it’s still going strong last I heard. It was broken in two from a trailer jack knife crash and it was my job to weld it together again. I welded it with a nickel rod made by PALCO, I welded a short length then peened it out with a air chisel with a blunt round tip. Finally for good measure I fish plated it with a piece of 1/2” steel and welded it with the same nickel rod. My time was cheap then and parts were expensive.
Is possible definietly to weld a Case Boom, well it depends how big the crack and the position of it, we did it, have used even the backhoe with a hydraulic hammer and no problem, we weld with Nickel and little by little, 1" and 1 hr later anothe inch, put a 5/8" plate with 5/8" screws grade 8 and is working great. Save us a lot of money
Jose GB … Looks like the third photo shows it being rewelded after some time. True ?? One does what they have to do at that moment in time.
Hi, no, it was the only time, we make the crack bigger with a V shape before welding and grind it nice, then weld it and reinforce with the plates and screws
Had a couple of old concrete machines(slip form pavers) had a lot of ductile iron components, between vibration and impacts they would eventually crack being pretty well buried in slop and the overlaying machine components. Used a high nickel rod supplied by AIRCO back in the day, told us to rosebud heat then weld then reheat and allow to slowly cool(Anneal) worked reasonably well in the late 70s, owner of the company was a Enganear by education so designed welded replacements and had built. As the components would fail later would install the Steel welded replacement awaiting as figured would re-fail, had them stored away in a old CONEX and had to dig them out where as the company sold off in the mid 90s the welded assemblies were still hanging in there.
“Lawn and garden” LOL That’s regular stuff. The mining toy box is just bigger than the regular stuff box. Pretty funny though... I almost blew coffee out of my eyes!
That expression comes from a time when a certain Cat District Office was populated with mining guys because that was probably 80%+ of the market volume in that area at that time. The only exception to that was a single rep who dealt with the "everything but mining" product lines. e.g. backhoe loaders, MWL, ADTs, SSL/CTL/MTL, etc, etc. His area of responsibility was always referred to around the office as Lawns & Gardens......... As one of the mining guys always used to say - "If you can't walk underneath it you shouldn't be working on it."
The usual line of derision about the small stuff to the sales force was "I'm waiting for the Cat chain saws and weed eaters." Now days I'd rather fix the small stuff. The climbing up and down and pulling on 600 foot pound torque wrenches was killing me.
Nowadays like an aristocrat I have a "man" (or "men") who do that. I just stand around, wave my arms around, and try to look important, or is that impotent......??
Well they are selling Cat branded Chinese Honda-clone generators in hardware stores now. Way to compromise the brand.
You might let someone at the Cat dealership know about that one. Cat has another brand of generator under a different name I believe.
Olympian (aka FC Wilson)..? I thought they got rid of that line.
No I am talking about little portables that 2 men or one burly guy can pick up and carry. Set up like little Hondas with the gas tank on top. We recently had a couple Olympian/FG Wilson sets come through and the Cat dealer like always had no trouble getting the parts we needed.
If the units from China carry the Cat name I'd bet people at Cat would want to know it. No one does knock offs faster than China and cares least about ruining anyones else's name.
At least the Japanese were nice enough to rebrand the clones.
Story: John-Henry and Mavis desired a child. Time passed and no child, so Mavis went to the doctor. Everything seemed okay, so Dr. asked to see John-Henry. Mavis sets the appointment for John-Henry, after payday that week. That evening, Mavis is shocked to see John-Henry drive home in a purple pimped out Caddy. John-Henry is dressed to the nines in flashy clothes and swinging gold chains. Mavis is dumbfounded speechless. Finally, she manages to mouth "What happened to you ? " John-Henry replied: "... Dr. said I was impotent, so I wanna look, drive & dress impotent..."
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Chinese Honda clone.
Link to the Cat web site. Appears kosher - I knew nothing about that particular product line......... https://shop.cat.com/en/usa/rp5500-490-6489
I've never seen one of these running in the field but I have seen plenty of other "not-Honda" generators and I know that if it is not Honda (engine, generator and frame) you don't want it.
It's a new one on me. I checked with some contacts at the local Cat house and they said they have seen them but don't recommend them. Another piece of licensing a name for gain. Right up there with Caterpillar boots. I'm still waiting for the Caterpillar chain saw and weed eater.
Sure, why not? John Deere already has their own branded chain saw (made by EFCO), why not Cat?
Even have cat cell phones
Not even a diesel...
Probably better that it is not a diesel. The Chinese small air cooled diesel clones I have seen have always been a disaster.
Some of the stuff from China is pretty decent and some is crap. Champion comes to mind. I have a Champion water pump that has been great except for needing the recoil starter repaired. Honda parts fit. I have a Robin Subaru generator from Japan that is every bit as good as a Honda but not many dealers for them. They used to make some of the JD generators, conventional and inverter. I bought it from the distributor.
I have seen Subaru Robin v-twins with far more than their fair share of problems and I have one scar from one that will be with me the rest of my life. Anyway they left the US a year or two ago. Parts drying up fast. Took me about a month to do a valve job on one this winter waiting on ebay parts because there were a few sold out through the official channels.
I think they had the odd bad engine but generally the are very good engines. Teledyne used to market them as Wisconsin Robin engines. Apparently they are as popular as Honda in Japan.
They can have them in Japan, good riddance I say. Apparently Honda and Kohler are the only ones who can make an engine that will work in the US. Everything else is a problem child to me.
GM made the 8.2 Fuel Pincher but that doesn't mean all their diesels are bad.
Still have a love for the 71Series.
92's were good too. Got a guy down the road with a 359 extended hood with a 92, runs a set of 6" pipes, no mufflers ... and it sounds soooo nice when it goes by. It's a seasonal truck so it doesn't get out much. Worked with some 12V71T's years ago running straights, they had a nice growl too.