Starts and runs, but has a few issues before it's ready for work. The emergency brake valve next to the seat was leaking and wouldn't build pressure, I got a rebuilt one locally. The valve in front of it had a broken lever, also got a new one. I'm thinking it's a 4WD switch, not sure. I have a parts manual coming today, no service manual yet. Also the transmission is leaking, there's a pretty good drip coming off the small round thing with hose towards center of the picture (underside view). A friend thinks it might be an inching valve. This picture was taken right after pressure washing, it still has water on it. Here's a before cleaning picture, whatever the round thing is attached to is also wet. Not sure if it's also leaking, or it's just transferring. The machine is almost two hours away, I will be up there the next few days working on it. Will change the air valves and see about stopping the trans leak.
The parts manual arrived. The small part is "cylinder", the part it goes onto is "control valve".
The transmission leak was coming from above that part, and it's so far up its hard to tell what's happening. Maybe taking off the fender will expose it. Fixed the air leak at the emergency brake valve only to find the rear power cluster (can) that pushes on the master cylinder had an even bigger air leak, put on a spare that bench tested good. Haven't had a chance to try and bleed the brakes yet. Did a lot of pressure washing so I can see what I'm looking at. The steering hydraulic all leaked out between my last two trips up there, both steer cylinders are leaking. The exhaust manifold was loose on the engine, and the gasket bad. I took the manifold off and am going to try and find a gasket.
The local Detroit Diesel dealer had the two gasket halves in stock, six something each. I got the other power cluster being rebuilt. I also have the rod and clevis coming to connect the parking brake linkage, it was missing. I won't be back up there for another week, should have the parts by then.
Got the exhaust manifold back on.
There are two air valves next to the seat. Anyone know what the one to the left is? 4WD?
These three air brake components also need to be replaced.
Already got rebuilt parts to go back on.
The treadle valve I still need to finalize the air hoses, but got most of them on there. The other two are done.
found out what it is.
Startup & operate bucket video.
We had a 72-10 and a 72-51. The ten never had many problems but it was a gutless machine. The 51 had s ton of power but something was always breaking. the 51 had the same style exhaust manifold. It was always blown open and LOUD!!!. We didn't have the money for new so we'd patch it over and over. My ears still ring from that machine and that's the truth I got tinnitus form running it! I have bad hearing loss and I think most of it came from running that thing. Back in the day REAL MEN didn't wear hearing protection. LOL
The piece with two Allen heads bolted on behind the steering box is a control valve, its leaking out of the top cover. I found a parts diagram, the only "seal" it shows is a solid rubber piece under the raised round part of the strap across the Allen heads. oarwhat did you work on this or any of the other stuff I'm working on? The book shows this, but it's a book for a six year older machine.
Our machines were older and we owned them over 30 years ago so I can't help much. Is that control for the trans mission declutch?
No, that's down on the transmission. This is steering control.
We got the brakes working. Tried to figure out what the manufacturer was doing with components and hoses my ag mechanic friend said weren't needed, he called them fancy. After getting nowhere doing that all day yesterday without a manual, today we hooked up only the air hoses and components he said were needed.
I found a website that advertises (some) new, used, and re manufactured parts for this machine. The plate that keeps the lower articulation pin nut from backing off is listed in the used section, mine's missing. I sent a list for parts quote, supposed to hear back within a day. http://www.partsun-ltd.com/terex-euclid-parts-used.asp?Start=900&End=919
Thought we were gonna reseal the steer cylinders, but wrong packing. It came with the machine, doh! I have the right part number to order a seal kit for them. Need the bushings too, they're worn.
Put the new seals in the steering hydraulic control valve, got them from Terex.
Of the three brake components you showed that you found replacements for, can you name each one and where you found them please? Also cost? I have a 32-71B that needs the part that looks like a brake booster. I think it converts air pressure to hydraulic pressure. Thank you!
On view of rebuilt parts on cart. Treadle valve left. Power cluster middle. Relay valve right. Those were $540 out the door, rebuilt. The power cluster had to be sent out to be rebuilt, the other two were in stock. I don't remember individual prices. At Terminal Air Brake company here in Fresno. Treadle valve and relay are on eBay. Parts have numbers on them to make sure you get the right ones for your machine. Edit: Power cluster didn't have any identifying numbers, the rebuilder recognized it from pictures.
I got prices for new o rings, seals, gaskets, wipers, etc for the bucket hydraulic control valve, pretty expensive. $543 for all.
Also got the right air line routing finally.
It turned out to be the same parts. It has three o rings and a cup looking seal, the o rings were flat, not round anymore. The cup looked worn too.
Bushings are available from Terex and the other place.
Just ordered the correct parts manual for this serial number, new from Sycamore Worldwide. $215 plus 26 shipping. Couldn't find a used one, really need it though.
This wasn't a good experience. 1) A retainer plate listed on the website by part number he said they scrapped. 2) Parts he initially said they had weren't there when they went to pull them. 3) A fair amount of the parts he did have there was going to be a delay because he was going to order them from Terex and mark them up, bushings went from $51 to $64 for example. 4) He wanted to sell me a very, very expensive option instead of a seal kit. 5) Gave me part numbers for bucket tooth and shank, and said they weren't available. There are several different buckets, all with different teeth. He didn't ask which bucket I have. 6) Even though I was disappointed they didn't have what I wanted after all, he wouldn't sell me the few pieces they did have because they couldn't be bothered with bits and pieces. And no I'm not gonna pay marked up prices on other stuff to get those.
The book that includes this serial number arrived. Middle pic is the page that tells which of the drawings is right for the serial number machine you have, the old book only had one option.
Is it my eyes or is that plate in the first photo center left broken
There's a broken plate in the first photo, one of the first things we noticed. Doesn't look like we can get it out of there to repair it. If I remember right it just holds a couple valve blocks.
I gathered some parts over the winter, I was up Monday gathering more information. This is a block heater, it goes left side in front of the blower. That part didn’t get pressure washed, the fender wouldn’t let me get the wand in there. Kind of hard to access too.
Also have an ether start system to install, I took it up there and looked at what I need to do. I plan on putting the ether bottle mount inside the cab on the left. There was only one place to connect small tubing to the air intake hose, and it already had a line going to the air filter gauge. The blower has a 3/4” pipe plug left and right both, I plan on seeing if I can put it in there without interference. Got the fittings already.
Got both fuel filters.
Bucket hydraulic spool valve o rings.
Seals and bushings for steer cylinders.
I don’t have keys for the doors, I’m gonna see if I can modify it for this type of lock to work. With the old lock you could just undo the mounting screws, pull out the lock, and turn it with a screwdriver. This type has the screws on the inside of the door. I didn’t look at it good enough to see if it would work when I was up there, we’ll see. If not I can exchange them for the same type that was on there.
Looking at building something like this to pull off wheels and get to the wheel cylinders, using a chain hoist.
I didn’t buy all the pieces, they wanted a crazy amount of money for the outer stuff. These o-rings were a dollar something each, not bad. And that’s what’s leaking.
I went up to where it’s at Sunday, a few day storm ended the day before. I made a little progress. I found out the new door locks will work with some modification. Can’t go through both walls of the door, the lock mechanism is a flat piece that bolts to the inside. One hole would go right through moving parts, but if I make one more 1” hole, I can access to attach to the outer wall only. That’s how it is now with screws. The blower fan is just inside the 3/4” pipe plug hole, I would have to add fittings to back up the injector and keep it from hitting the fan. Or maybe tee it into the filter gauge hose. The heater fan does work, the wires were loose on the switch under the seat. I broke one of the terminals off the back of the switch when tightening it, need a new toggle now. The fan makes noise when changing speeds or stopping, otherwise it’s good. I can pressure wash the part where the block heater goes from under the seat, some stiff hoses in the way though. Might clean it that way and swap it the other way. Tried to jack up the back of the loader enough to get the rear axle pivot pin back in, it’s partially backed out. It would be all the way out if the counterweight wasn’t in the way. The jack didn’t move it enough, it pushed the log I had it on into the ground three inches. The ground is soft right now. Plus one rear tire is low, airing that up will help a lot. Couldn’t get the truck all the way to it right now, didn’t want to risk sliding off the sloped shelf road (driveway) in the snow. So I didn’t have power inverter or air, I walked the sixty feet or so in.
What I thought was the water outlet is the fuel pump, the part in this picture with blue and red fittings on it. I reviewed the diagram showing where the block heater goes, there’s a cut away indicating it is on the other side of the engine. I don’t know why they didn't just use a view of the other side. So now I remember, early on I had to fix the heater hose going to the air compressor. That is where the block heater goes. Next time up i’ll get a better look and see if I can access it without removing the sheet metal over the engine, it was already off when I worked on it before. Also in this picture there’s a holder for the emergency stop made by the guy rebuilding the truck. I left a message with the Detroit dealer asking if they have it, if not i’ll make one.
Looks like you're doing a great job.
Thanks. I’m itching for the snow to disappear so I can go spend a few days working on it, i’ll get more done that way. There’s no buildings to stay in, I tent camp. Plus the snow is limiting anyway.
If the bucket doesn't settle to badly pick up a bucket full of rock before you jack the rear axle.
Already on the agenda. Last time I couldn’t get my truck over to charge the batteries, and no one to shoot ether while I crank it. Plus there’s snow, once the snow is gone i’ll be doing that. Might have the ether start system installed soon too, got the fittings today.
Terex herder do you happen to know where to get used parts for this thing? Engine side panels and 4 in 1 bucket. Bucket barely settles when raised, at least when empty.
Installed the ether start system a couple days ago, I think I need to protect the tube though. Maybe some flex tubing??
Got both locks done. Turns out the latches are left and right, but the handles are the same. The handles only turn ninety degrees, so one is horizontal and one is vertical. Meh.
I took off the parking brake drum, it was caked with oil inside. I'll pressure wash the shoes and get them relined. The oil was coming from the steering valve above, we resealed it last year.
I did some other research too. I pulled the two fuel tank mounting bolts in the back and tried to pivot it forward, the front is hinged. It moved enough to tell me I'm on the right track, but need to drain some fuel first. The steer cylinders are underneath, need to seal them. Pulled the hose from the brake fluid reservoir to the front master cylinder, it has a hole. Now I have a sample. Followed the hoses coming from the outer valve block next to the transmission, one goes to a cooler, one goes to a pump, the other two go to the steering control valve. The inner block has no hoses or other lines, must be tied together. I also noticed if I remove four bolts, I can drop the plate the two blocks are bolted to. Too crowded to work on them where they are. We can replace seals and put them back in. Measured what size pin I would need to attach a cable or chain to the back, to pull something. 2-1/8 bottom and under 2" top. I thought both would be the same. Maybe a step pin? Brought the parking brake linkage down too, the top clevis is a little too wide for what it has to pass through. It was missing and I bought this one, need to find a narrower one. This one hangs up sometimes. A friend got a loader service manual for me, the first thing I looked for was the parking brake. It said refer to transmission service manual. I found one on eBay and ordered it, $35. Replaced the heater fan switch too.
This showed up yesterday, mine is 3630-1.
Picked these up today, maybe i’ll have a working parking brake next time up.
Finally got access to the steer cylinders. Pretty nasty, but cleaned up good. The steering wasn't perfectly centered. One side came out easy, the other side I fought with until I took the spool valve mounting bolts out. Then it came right out, just a little bit keeping it from moving. I had the cylinder seal kits with me, but brought them down to do at home. Better resources, and that way I only have to expend my energy up there on what has to be done up there.
Also removed the steering manifold assembly, it was leaking. I figured I'd do all the steer stuff while the system is open. It was a bear to wrestle out of this little opening. Finally found an angle that worked, after trying others. The buckets show how BIG the thing is. And needless to say, it was a nasty mess.
I brought down the broken windshield and seal, already talked to my glass guy about doing it. I traced the pattern onto plywood in case the glass did not survive the trip down, it did though.
Also got the emergency engine shutoff cable installed, still need to put the stop on next time. I put the knob on the left edge below the dash.
With the enormous amount of work to be done on the property I can not imagine getting it done by hand. Although working on the loader is taking up time and resources I could be putting into the land, it would be at a snails pace in comparison. I got a bunch of other stuff done I have not listed yet, including pressure washing two inches plus of oil buildup off the rear axle. I got a handful reaching up there. The steel brake line is crushed with vise grips at the right rear wheel, likely because that wheel cylinder was leaking. So I took a measurement to replace it. I also gathered other information. The plate that locks the lower articulation pin nut in place is missing, and the nut is backed off a little. Terex wanted a crazy amount of money to have one made, they’re out of stock. I will make one. I said I was a machinist right?? It’s a 3-1/2” hex with two 5/8-11 bolts holding it, and I will Locktite this time. Also brought the batteries down to charge and check out, one would start my truck, the other just clicked. And the battery box hinged cover is badly bent and won’t close. I got it half way cut off, the inverter kept burning fuses. I will figure out a way for next time, I want to bring it down and beat it back into shape enough to close. It’s one piece with what the batteries sit on, and that is large and cumbersome. Not even sure how much would have to be removed that way, I will just attach it with bolts and a plate. One of the rear articulation pins is partially out too, it broke away from the plate with bolts securing it in place. On the other pin they bent up a metal plate and welded it on to trap the pin in there when that happened, I measured it so I can duplicate it. Also removed the broken off mounting plate and brought it home to clean up. I replaced the hose carrying fluid to the front master too, you can see it in the first picture describing the manifold. Two blue hoses, I had already replaced the other one. I alternated dropping beetle killed trees, and working on the loader. But gave the loader more time. I didn’t hear a peep out of neighbors until a chainsaw yesterday. Had some rain I sat under the canopy for, nice dust control. Also measured and took notes to build something to lift the wheels using a chain hoist, gonna build a tripod to hang the hoist from. And checked lug nut size, there are thirteen nuts that take an 1-1/8” socket. I got a lot done this last trip, and lined up more to do before I go back up.
Had to pull it apart with a come along.
All the new parts match.
The second kit was packed with some parts wrong, this will have to wait until I get that straightened out.
Making progress. Looks good.
Thanks. I’m pushing to get it usable, I’m eager to make some progress on our land. It’ll be wheel cylinders after the current round of stuff, and if the condition of everything else is a clue, i’ll be having the shoes relined too.
I just ordered the missing part from the steer cylinder kit, and o rings for the steering manifold assembly & unloading valve. Also some fuel line. Because I'm waiting on this stuff I went ahead and built a contraption to lift a wheel off so I can get to the wheel cylinders. My gantry crane is too big to haul.
Just use the bucket to lift the front wheels off the ground. If you need the back wheels off the ground, just use the bucket to dig into a bank of dirt so that it raises the back end and then put blocks under the axles.
I do plan to use the bucket to lift the wheels off the ground, this isn’t a car wheel I can pull off with my hands after that. We will set the tripod back a little so the wheel will come back when lifted up, maybe repeat a couple times to get it out of the way.
I missed that part. Thought you were trying to lift the tractor with the tripod.
I couldn’t take the truck with the air compressor and impactor to remove the lug nuts, so I could only set it up and see if it looked like it would work. It does. If I need to choke it up more I got a chain coupling link to eliminate the hook and shackle.
Replaced the rear right side brake line, the old one was crushed with vise grips to slow the flow of fluid to the wheel cylinders. I know from experience you can't stop the flow completely, even with the vise grip still on.
Ir appears you are working on a bit of a slope. Don't let that tire get away from you. They will roll easier that you think and you won't be able to stop it.
The road behind the loader goes up pretty steep. It’s pretty level where the loader itself is, but does slope down a little this side of the loader. My tractor mechanic friend has been saying all along to dig a little trench with the bucket first. Thanks.
It's just very unproductive chasing a tire down a hill. Then you have to get it back to the tractor!
If it made it the 40’ to the road it would be coming from the right here, but probably wouldn’t make it through the trees. We’ll take a bunch of precautions to keep it from getting away. The “claw” I made to grab the wheel is too close fitting to slip off, so unless the tripod went over and the chain came off, run aways would be limited to after we set it down. And we’ll make sure it’s anchored first. Edit: I’ll chain the top of the tripod to the loader too.
He didn’t have me order the seals because he thought they would be o rings, and I ordered all the o rings. So now I need to get six seals and a gasket. He did what he could for now, I was his assistant. There were some obvious leaks, seals and o rings both. The seals we need are A1054X3, I am only finding it online by national stock number. I will try local tomorrow, if not I’ll order from Terex.
Above parts ordered from Terex. Tried locally, but nonstandard size and type. Doh. The first batch of parts arrived, and I got the other steering cylinder back together. We can work on the steering hydraulic manifold assembly now too.
The spool valve seals arrived from Terex yesterday. The unloading valve seal kit wasn’t in the box a few days earlier. I had to ask what happened, no longer available. But the parts were available individually, and supposed to have been ordered a couple days ago. No confirmation yet.
Sorry I didn't see your question earlier. Hulco in Lone Jack, MO. is always my first Terex parts call.
Thanks, I already searched and found them.
Both of the hydraulic units (spool valve & steering unloading valve assembly) are resealed and back together now. Probably will be September when I can get back up and install them.
Finally got back on this last week, installed left steering cylinder, spool valve, and steering hydraulic manifold assembly & unloading valve. Except I was short three o rings for the spool valve hoses, ordered those yesterday. They were in stock in California. So couldn’t start it because of the three hydraulic lines not connected, came home with a list of what to bring next time. So next time i’ll go up ready to work on the wheel cylinders, that’s the last major thing. Got a few small things lined up too.
Just placed an order with Hulco today, springs for the parking brake shoes, and rod ends for the parking brake linkage rod. Parking brake springs got thrown away by the shop that relined the shoes, they were in the bag with the shoes. I wanted the bag back because it had parts in it I needed, he insisted there were no parts in it. Those two springs were in there. They’re no longer available from Terex, a couple other places didn’t have them either. There was no linkage rod or rod ends with the machine. I got all thread and rod ends, but the rod ends are too wide for the upper connection, and sometimes hangs up. So, many thanks for that referral. The woman at Hulco wanted to know how I heard of their company, I told her the story of you telling me. She sounded surprised. Also, anywhere else where they actually have a wrecking yard with these machines, there were other items on my list that Hulco didn’t have.
Got the last three hoses on, and started it. No leaks, this picture was after running it. Cylinders and steering unloader don’t leak either.
The rear end took five quarts. I pulled the drain plug real quick to see what was in there, it looked good. The front of the front axle was still nasty, so I didn’t pull the plug yet. But, pressure washed it yesterday. So will be able to do it next time, it was still too wet yesterday.
I marked the wheels for easy alignment putting them back on, after working on the brakes. It’s an odd bolt pattern.
A casualty of working on the steering manifold and unloading valve, put a crack in the copper air line going from compressor to the tank. I took the line off and brought it down with me, need a sample to get a new one.
Located all the filters, this is the engine. The transmission and steering filters are underneath, and on their sides. I’m thinking changing them will be a big mess. I remember changing them on Army trucks, but they were right side up. The bucket hydraulics only has the tank filter.
30 years ago, a university buddy of mine did an interesting modification to his dads Terex loader. They had a gyppo logging show with the terex loader, a terex dozer about thesize of a D7, andsome Pacific logging trucks They really hated keeping the hydraulic side of the loader brakes working so he bought air brake parts like used on their trucks and converted the loader to 100% air. Said it worked very well after the conversion. And way cheaper to maintain since truck brake parts are a dime a dozen. Jon.
Hmmm, I might look into that. Thanks for the tip.
The drop of oil visible in the center of the picture is on the bottom of the steering hydraulic control valve, under the floor. We put new seals in it already, not sure why it’s leaking. Now that it’s running I will look at it while running. Maybe it’s a hose. Or maybe the metal parts are too worn to seal, dunno. It wouldn’t be such a big problem if it wasn’t directly above the parking brake drum, it’s putting oil inside the drum. Luckily I don’t have the re lined shoes back in there yet. I just got new springs, but will wait until the leak is fixed.
Changed the fuel filters. At one point I had it warming up, and the RPMs dropped and it died shortly after. Then would only start and die. I thought I would have to wait and ask my diesel mechanic friend. Then I was underneath looking at something else, and noticed the fuel line under the tank was kinked. It had got caught on something and pulled to the side when I lowered it back down after working on the steer cylinders and spool valve. I straightened it back out, and it’s back to normal now.
Jacked up the rear to try and get the rear axle articulation pin back in, it would only go through two of the three plates though. It’s off about an eighth of an inch to the side, I didn’t have a helper to turn the steering wheel while I pry on it.
Scooped up some dirt to make it easier to jack up the rear end. It felt good to use it, still need to stay on flat ground though. I’m not comfortable on the hills we have without brakes.
The plate that retains the lower articulation nut was missing, and the nut loose. I got a wrench and tightened it, Also made a sketch of what I need to make. Dropped one end of the driveshaft, because it was in the way. The nut was kind of buggered up, so I had to debur it first. I have the means to make the plate. It’ll have a hex shaped hole in the middle, and two holes for the bolts (5/8-11).
Tried to remove the front wheels, to get to the brakes. I have all of the lug bolts out of one wheel, but it’s stuck in place. Hitting it with a sledgehammer didn’t do any good, driving up and back while turning the wheel didn’t do any good either. I couldn’t drive it much at all though, the lower radiator hose sprung a leak. Another casualty of working in proximity to it, on the rear pin. I’m thinking next time put the new hoses on, add antifreeze, dig the bucket in and push. I’m thinking that’ll work, my friend suggests pushing from the frame with a hydraulic jack. I saw a YouTube video with the same problem on the same loader. They broke a winch cable pulling to the side, then got it loose driving on it. It has thirteen 3/4-10 lug bolts, grade eight.
Winch cable breaks at 4:55.
I added 25 gallons of hydraulic fluid to bring both the steering and bucket tanks up to proper level. Had to clean out both the petcocks on the bucket tank, they were clogged. Broke the 3/4 ratchet internal mechanism trying to loosen the lug bolts, it is the Thorsen 3/4 with round head and knob. Went out to the nearest auto parts and bought a breaker bar. Still had a very long cheater, and most went POW when it broke loose. Also added diesel injector cleaner and the remaining fuel I had siphoned in order to swing the tank out of the way. The rear axle has two articulation pins, this is the front one. It also had the plate welded to the pin break off, they welded another plate to capture the pin. I need to do the same thing to the rear pin. I cleaned this up more after the picture.
Well, with all the struggles you are going thru, you will really know the machine when you are done!! And I'll bet you will know exactly what you are doing when you push it to the limit, knowing precisely what might break!! Trying to get those wheels off sound like an accident waiting to happen. Safety warning: Don't use heat on the wheel rims unless the tires have no air pressure in them! There's some interesting videos on youtube that show what can happen- big explosion. I've got a Volvo 4600B waiting in the wings to go thru pretty much the same as you are doing. Its got a couple of holes in the block where it threw a rod. I don't want to do it in the mud so I'm holding off until I build a shop in the spring. Best of luck with the work and keep the photos coming!! Jon.
Agreed. I’m really getting to know the machine. The book has a big warning about deflating the tires before removing the wheels, it says to remove the valve stem. I couldn’t really figure out why, it doesn’t explain.
Don't use heat on wheels even if the tyres have no pressure in them ...... refer to the thread below. It has been discussed at length here in the Safety forum. The thread could also be titled "The dangers of applying heat to wheels when the tyre is still mounted", releasing the air pressure is not enough to guarantee your safety. HeavyEquipmentForums
Old and new bucket tilt hose, it had a fair leak. That’s the last bucket system leak I know of.
Someone watching my thread on another forum made these for me, without my asking. Very cool!
I was in another part of the mountains over the weekend. Swung by and installed the hydraulic hose, lower radiator hose, and sprayed the wheels with Liquid Wrench. Trying to get back up and work on the brakes soon.
Liquid wrench. I take it you've gone off the idea of using heat on the wheels..?
Heat never was my idea, someone else suggested it. My tractor mechanic friend said we won’t use heat, he’s favoring pushing from the frame with a hydraulic jack. We’ll try pushing with the bucket first.
Had to tighten the nut a little more to get the plate to line up, then put a shortened transfer punch into one of the threaded holes and hit the plate. There’s enough play in the fit over the hex that I didn’t try to transfer the second hole, I’ll do it by dimension. I brought it back home to drill. Had to tighten the nut a little more to get the plate to line up, then put a shortened transfer punch into one of the threaded holes and hit the plate. There is enough play in the fit over the hex that I did not try to transfer the second hole, I will do it by dimension. I brought it back home to drill.
Replaced the copper air line, the plumbing department at the hardware made it up for me. I don’t have a flaring tool, and neither did he. So he just used a coupler, it works. I routed it different on the bottom. Not on purpose, I forgot. It’s more exposed this way, but I won’t be driving in tall brush anyway.
I always thought copper tubing and mobile equipment didn't mix well...vibration can crack it quite quickly. Especially if there are long spans between supports. Jon.
It’s common to use copper tubing on air compressors, they make too much heat for a hose. They put just enough to get past the high heat, then couple to a hose.
Got both front wheels off, digging in with the bucket broke them loose. I left two bolts on each to keep things under control. With the tripod set away from the wheel, it just pulled the one leg closer to the wheel. So I would pull the third leg back, and the wheel would come with it. Had to repeat a few times. Two of us were able to lift the planetary housing off, but not the drum and hub assembly. Too heavy, used the tripod for that too. Plus it kept from dragging the hub over the spindle threads, didn’t even touch it.
How are the 3 pipes fastened together at the top there?
A chain through rings welded to the top of the pipe. That picture wouldn’t load...
Now I see it, it took you telling me though. The busy lines of the cedar tree kind of camouflage it.
Gee, those brakes dont look in bad shape at all. Did you blow them off before taking the photo? Looks like you lucked out on this corner, at least! Jon.
The brakes before cleaning, the inside of the wheel cylinders were pretty nasty. Two wheel cylinders honed good, the other two were too pitted. Already replaced with new ones that came with the machine. One of the springs that keeps the adjuster in place was broken and brazed too, otherwise all’s good. I found a place that has the adjuster spring already, haven’t ordered yet though. Yeah I guess I shouldn’t have put a cleaned up picture yet, doh! Out of order.
I didn't read whether you were planning on replacing the brake shoes but those look like they would clean up OK if they were boiled up with some laundry detergent in a big enough bucket. Just don't do it on the wife's stove .......
The brakes are already back together and ready for use in the first brake picture I posted. Here’s a picture showing how we got the drum/hub assembly off.
The planetary housing before cleaning it, we put everything back together clean. I’m told planetaries are used to handle the torque better. The drive flange installed, I think that’s what they call it. You can also see the pins we made to make installing the planetary housing easier, they’re pointed. We got one planetary hole on there, and it held the weight while we got the other holes and planetary gears aligned. This pic shows the torque wrench, had to make a spindle nut socket, it wasn’t available anymore. Welded an 1-5/16” socket to a plate with pins in it. It calls for 600 ft lbs, then set to 25 lbs rolling torque. Rolling torque was already there at 600 ft lbs, had to use the 9 foot cheater pipe to get the torque.
Here’s the spindle nut tool. Not pretty, but it worked!
Before we put the drums back on, we put a chain around each brake shoe, and bled the brakes. This way we would know if the wheel cylinders were leaking, and take care of it first. They bled good. So we'll have brakes now, woohoo! But first we killed three hours trying to figure out why we didn’t have anything happening up front, we weren’t getting air to the front power cluster. Last time we worked on the air component of the brakes, we had an air brake mechanic (mutual friend) helping us. He told us to tie the relay back in, me and my mechanic friend that usually helps me had bypassed it. Well the last thing we checked this time was the air, so it took three hours and five minutes to get something happening up front. Doh!! I think we would have got the brakes adjusted and the wheels back on otherwise, we’ll have to do it later now. It won’t be long before the snow keeps me from working on it for a few months, I at least want to get the wheels back on and move it away from the standing dead trees before that happens.
The wheel cylinders were also used on International trucks, so they are still readily available.
something like this will give you 2000 ft lbs either way if you have to get into any more of the big stuff
1” drive? The one we used is 3/4 drive, and belongs to a friend. I’ve been looking for one at a reasonable price.
This is what I was doing today. When we put it together last week we didn’t have the gaskets yet, so we just used silicone. It’s outdoors and rain was coming, so we needed to button it up. I also added the gear oil today. Started putting the oil back into the transmission, and noticed it was coming out the bottom faster than before. Doh! I don’t know what went wrong, I’ve done a lot of seals before without that problem. Also adjusted the front brakes. Followed the manual, it said to adjust until they drag, then build air pressure and step on the brakes a few times. Then adjust again, and back off three clicks after they drag. All seems good. I didn’t have time to do anything else. Next time I’ll put the wheels on, remove the transmission yoke, and try to figure out why it’s leaking.
The transfer output is like this, it doesn't have a big nut on it. It’s leaking past the seal though, not the splines. My mechanic friend thinks the spring may have popped off the back of the seal, I didn’t think of that possibility. He wants to take off the retainer the seal is installed into, and look at it from the back side.
I still can’t figure out where the block heater goes, I think what I got is for a later engine. The people selling these things are no help. Well almost no help, their product information says it replaces the water jacket plate on the side of the engine. They have two options, with and without water cooled compressor. Mine is water cooled. So I think if I follow the hose back from the compressor, it will go to where this thing installs at. It is just a pipe fitting though. I can’t find anything with two bolts like this. So I guess the question is, what/where is the water jacket plate? I don’t have engine manuals for this yet, the machine manuals only show a limited amount of engine stuff. It might show what I need to know, I will look.
We just got a couple inches of snow, visible on a webcam thirteen twisting and turning miles away. I have no cover to work under, so I’m about to be shut down for a few months. Some years it warms back up (temporarily) after a snow, we’ll see.
I drilled the hex plate, but only drilled where it was transfer punched. I’ll install with one bolt, and transfer the other hole location. That’ll insure it’ll fit. The image wouldn’t load, some are too large a file for this forum.
This is what I found when I got there, plus there were three new trees down parallel to the loader just downhill. Three new ones across the main road, and two new ones across my lower road. And, I came in from the top in the snow. Neighbors came in from the bottom, and had to cut through twenty trees to do it. They were in a two wheel drive, going to drain the water in their cabin. I pulled them to their driveway, above ours, and got them turned around. It is raining trees, doh! I dropped another 9-10 in the area I want to move it to. Loader is ready to move, and another 3 day break in the weather is coming.
Something to keep in mind. If you have any amount of snow be careful moving the loader. One would think they will go anywhere but those big tires can turn into skates pretty quickly. Don't want to see the machine or you getting any damage after such a fine job of repair.
I thought the same, but I’m being told different. By someone I think has no experience with it, only his educated guess. He thinks the weight will take it down to rock quickly, and it won’t slide. There’s a good chance the snow will be melted by the time I get back up there. The snow line wasn’t much below our elevation as it was. Thanks for the tip.
And “front brakes only” long enough to get it away from the hazard trees, what’s your thoughts on that? First thing in the spring we’ll do the rear brakes. First gear does hold it back pretty good on our hills too.
The snow that is in your pictures isn't a problem. If you have a few good days coming you should be fine. It is not so much as holding it back as it is if it starts to go side ways. You always have the option to plant the bucket to hold it still.
The tripod worked pretty good actually, got the job done. It took a few positions to walk it in there, that’s okay though.
We made guide pins/bullets to help get the wheels back on, you can see one starting into a hole in the picture. The “grabber” had to come off shortly after this too, not enough room for it between the tire and loader arm.
I made the grabber too wide, and the inner half kept coming out of the rim. The stick kept it centered. On the other wheel we kept out one of the two bolts holding the two halves of the grabber together, and it worked as a pincher. Worked good that way..
We torqued all the lug bolts to 280 ft lbs lubed, as per the manual.
Both front wheels back on, some snow is already gone where we were working.
Temporary fix to the air cleaner cap, I’ll try and get a new metal one.
I have a picture with brand name and part number of the garage door handles I used, I’ll get a replacement. Considering the potential for damage, I feel pretty fortunate.
It was a torn seal, it’s good now. And oil put back in too.
If you have a truck junkyard around you should be able to find a new (slightly used) bonnet for that air cleaner pretty reasonable.
Hmmmm, we do. There’s a self service yard with a semi truck section, I wasn’t thinking about it until you brought it up.
Good advice from the Weldor. Those tyres will slide sideways on mud, or anything else that's slippery for that matter, faster than a greased pig even if you let the tyre pressures down until they're almost flat.
What Granville are you in? England? South Africa?
I need to explain a little... The photo in my profile is the late English TV comedy star Ronnie Barker, as "Arkwright the Grocer" in the BBC sitcom Open all Hours. His co-star in the show was his nephew Granville, played by David Jason. The "G..G..G..Granville" refers to the fact that Barker played Arkwright as having a stammer ....
So where are you located?
Right now just on the edge of the Amazon Rain Forest.
Hmmmm.
I drilled the hex plate mounting bolts for safety wires, I don’t want it lost again.
I verified both bolt holes are lined up in the hex plate, need to chase the threads though. Need a bottom tap, don’t have one in that size. And the heavy washers I got are good thickness to clear the weld, and not too big around to fit in there.
They sold me a bonnet half inch small. I’m gonna take it back.
I could drive right through the cut logs, but they would be right next to the loader. Did not leave me any wiggle room, I pushed them either side. And took some way down to the end and dumpd them.
1:14 to 1:25, I pushed the tree that’s parallel on the right. It was centered in the available space. And right before the end you can barely see the remnants of the stump I pushed through, basically it’s wood debris color instead of dirt. I think the sun would have cooperated better going clockwise. Oh well. I was losing daylight and needed to wrap things up.
I chased the threads with a bottom tap, and tightened the bolts to make sure the length is good. Now I’ll paint the plate for next time, and drill the other plate just in case.
Found a blacksmith to straighten the battery cover enough to close all the way.
The front piece was bent too, they got it pretty straight.
They used this little furnace to heat the metal.
Worked on the battery cover yesterday, got it welded back together. I have the Terex green, now I need some primer.
Got the lock plate painted, used paint from Kimball Midwest. Terex Green.
Got this installed for good the other day.
I didn't get any other pictures, but looked at installing the tank heater. It’s supposed to be installed lower than the connection on the engine, there’s no room to do that. Plus the block drain, and heater hose are on opposite sides of the engine. Looks like I’ll be using a pump. Pump only draws 7 amps, so the same inverter I had in mind will do it.
I also took measurements for an overlap piece to bolt the battery cover back on. I can make that before I go up next time.
Storms have made it too wet to get anything done in the mountains, so I've been making parts, this is a battery hold down. I could have bought one for batteries end to end, but mine are side by side. Can’t find a part number. My machine was the second to last made, and there are several sections that weren't updated for the last change. It simply doesn't show my serial number (in those sections). No I’m not the best welder, but I think it’ll stay together.
Yep, it'll work.
Thanks. A friend gave me flat bar to use, but I saw it bending too much. And I had this angle iron left over from a recent project.
These are to put the battery cover back on. I had to cut it off, it wasn’t removable. Previous owner turned it with the cover up, and mangled the cover. Had to heat it and straighten it. It’s thicker on the ends, that’s why the two smaller pieces are thicker.
There are two pins the rear axle pivots left and right on, one is backed out. What held it in is broken off. The other one is the same way, and they already welded something on to trap it in place. I pretty much copied what they made.
Bolted the battery cover back on, and measured for battery hold down bolts. I still need to drill and install the two side pieces to secure the battery cover better.
They didn’t get the bends right when straightening the battery cover, it doesn’t go all the way down. I can stand on it and make it go down, but it won’t stay there. It will probably do its job like this though.
Changed the transmission filter. I didn’t change the small gasket, I couldn’t figure out how to get the clamp bolt out. The book lists a snap ring, but it doesn’t look like a snap ring in there. Hmmmm.
those old cartridge type filters usually have a ring of some sort down at the bottom to hold the large cupped washer down against the spring below(although not necessarily) the spring and washer are there to hold the cartridge up against the head, otherwise the element won't filter anything. I've taken apart some where the washer and spring were missing-no doubt dropped into the bucket and lost.
The spring is in place and doing its job, I just couldn’t figure out how to release it to get to the gasket. I have another identical one to do, steering hydraulic. If I find out in time, I can get that one replaced. I’ll try and remember to post a picture of the filter pieces from the book.
if you push down on the cupped washer the retaining ring will likely be exposed
It was a continuous piece, or at least it seemed.
stand the can on end first to support the long bolt and push down against the spring force
That’s how I did it.
sometimes they can be a real PITA. if they aren't leaking around the bolt, I usually leave well enough alone and save the new washer in case it ever starts leaking and then worry about it
Maybe that’s the best way...
Pushing over a 28” diameter cedar tree.
Got the fuel line swapped, and fired back up. No leaks. Had to learn how to deal with the braided fuel line. Cut it to length with a hack saw, then unraveled the braid with a machinist pic, and cut the individual wires. Had to get back enough to get a nut and ferrule on.
We also got the new steering control valve on, and not leaking. Changed the filter while the system was apart. The box the hardware store o rings were in said they’re good for hydraulic fluid. I will still get the right ones and put them in my loader stuff, in case these disintegrate. Also, the fluid was milky. I read this is because of air coming in through leaks. I wasn’t able to flush the system, I don’t know how to. I topped it back off with new fluid. Do I need to readdress this? We used a vise to swap the fittings.
This is the same tree as in post 178.
Is it just me or does that engine sound a bit "lame" As in there are cylinders not doing all the work or in balance or out of time or something.
Probably just you. I get a lot of comments about how awesome it sounds.
Couldn’t get the loader started today, too cold I guess. I made a list of what I need to install the tank heater. I need fittings, and need to drill the mounting bracket out for a convenient, but larger bolt. I’m planning on teeing off the lines that go to and from the heater.
You do know that’s a 2 stroke diesel, right? It has a unique sound.
Seems I will need this method of flushing to get rid of the milky hydraulic fluid in the steering system. If the system is badly contaminated, it is wise to flush all pipes and actuators while changing the tank fluid. This can be done satisfactorily by disconnecting the return line and placing its end in a drum, then cycling the machine.
I am very familiar with Detroit 2 cycles, they used to be found in everything. With twice the firing pulses they always have a very even sound, no lope or anything because they sort of run twice as fast as a regular engine. In that video I thought I heard a lope or tick when the engine was running near idle but the volume is low and I wasn't there, it could be absolutely nothing. It does sound good when you were pushing the tree. One of the things to note about them is each cylinder has its fuel set individually and each injector has its timing set individually, that is why I question whether some ham handed mechanic long ago may have mismatched something but I would want to hear better before digging in. As for the starting, don't be afraid to give it a reasonable small spritz of ether to get started, they were OK with that from the factory. But they usually will start even when cold. As for the milky fluid, I'm not a hydraulics guy so I will let others address that.
Thanks for the input.
As far as ether I would just add get it cranking first and once it starts smoking then give it a sniff.
Got it started yesterday, about 3 pm. Only had time to move it out of the shade, should help.
Also got the parking brake pressure washed, and installed the brake shoes. I also got the new steering hydraulic control valve installed Sunday. No leaks. Seems I will need this method of flushing to get rid of the milky hydraulic fluid in the steering system. If the system is badly contaminated, it is wise to flush all pipes and actuators while changing the tank fluid. This can be done satisfactorily by disconnecting the return line and placing its end in a drum, then cycling the machine.
Someone suggested this. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/FIL4591
And I found this in a search.
Installed parking brake linkage, and got it adjusted close. I will have to dial it in next time it is running. So I can see if it holds.
The steering “is” working a whole lot better right now, it had slowed down. still need to get the milky fluid out of there though.
If it was mine I would be using an immersion type heater, one that goes right in the engine water jacket and the only external part is the electric cord. Go to: https://phillipsandtemro.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-Zerostart-Temro-Web-Catalog.pdf And scroll down to page 48-49 for the Detroit heaters and see if there is one that will work on your machine. Personally I never liked the external tank heaters as the mounting and hoses always seemed to be a problem and especially on a machine that was prone to an oil leak now and then the hoses could get mushy and start a leak at the worst time! But then a Terex with a Detroit won't have any oil leaks right?
I bought one of those two years ago, it’s sitting in the garage. There’s nowhere to install it on this engine. I’ve been in direct contact with Phillips and Temro. I’m telling them this is an older engine that isn’t compatible with their product, and their application years list is wrong. They act like I don’t know what I’m doing. They say it goes forward of blower on left side of machine. I can’t get them a picture of that area, access is blocked. I can see into that area though, between the hoses, and have had my hand in there feeling around. The pictures show the only access to that area, direct access is blocked by steel plate. If someone has a picture of one installed on a 4-71, I’d love to see it.
That looks like one of those machines that they put together by sending the engine down the assembly-line and attached the rest of the machine to it! So maybe your original idea is the best.
Yes, I have limited options.
I got the fittings to install the tank heater. The pump came with hose fittings, but too small. Next time I’ll be able to install the tank heater and see if the loader will make it to the top. If so, I can schedule tire installation.
Donaldson doesn’t have a water absorption filter for this filter type. They do have eight housings for a water absorption filter, I’m thinking of changing to one. I asked a local supplier to look into it. I’m thinking flushing the system will still leave a residue, then the filter can take care of it.
Finally had a chance to check the parking brake, after I installed the linkage. I had it on a slight downhill, put it in neutral and let it start to move. Stepped on the brake and it stopped it, but needs tightened up. When I let off it started moving again, it didn’t lock into an “applied” position. It’s this type of lever, but with rounded diamond plate as a foot pedal. And it has a chain to a release lever. I thought the action within this lever locks it into place??
Got it warmed up and started, ran it an hour and a half. I only had it at an idle in the beginning, higher rpm warmed it faster. I will try it from the beginning next time, shouldn’t take as long. There was a noticeable difference when the coolant started into the loader engine, the Travelall temp gauge dropped thirty degrees. The supply hose was hot, and the return hose was cold. Before I started it the loader temp gauge was 3/4 up the white area. The tank heater didn’t get it that hot after running over twice as long.
Im a little late to the party here. I do have an external coolant heater on my 471 in a terex. Ill grab some pics asap. The machine is on snow detail at a condo complex. I still cant believe the residents havent lodged a noise complaint with that beast running at 2am.....
How long does it take to warm it enough to start?
We plug it in the night before, but id bet 30 mins would be enough. I believe our heater is 1700 watts.
I want to put teeth on the bucket for digging. Can not use the existing holes, they added a deeper cutting edge in the front. They are not available by application. I measured the plate thickness, and am looking at options.
I backed the parking brake fine adjust all the way off, it was a long ways. Then disconnected the linkage at the bottom, set the lever in the applied position, pulled the lever on the parking brake drum to the applied position, and adjusted the linkage length to match. I still had to adjust the fine adjust in more to make it feel like it was setting. I thought it was good, until I went to use it. It pressed down too easy, and didn’t hold. I think I need to cut the linkage, to stay at the top of the fine adjust. I can’t go any shorter right now. The steering control valve started leaking again in December. I thought all the o-rings failed (we used hardware store o-rings), it was one loose nut on one of the bigger fittings. I tightened it, and no leak now. All fluid levels were good, except I added a gallon of antifreeze. Coolant isn’t leaking, it’s down from adding the hoses to heat the engine. I ran coolant through the loader engine forty minutes and it fired right up. I will try it at thirty minutes next time.
Weld on shanks or drill new holes for bolt on shanks.
Yes. Is the lip not too hard to drill? I thought it might need to be torched.
I’ve seen it done with mag drill and annular cutters .others may have done it in person.
I’ve used those, we called them rotobroach. That means it’s soft enough to drill, I don’t have a mag drill to hold it steady though.
You could probably rent one.
If it's hard you may have to get a carbide tipped cutter. Somewhat more costly but so is the welding rod to weld the hard stuff without cracking...
You can weld tooth adapters to a bucket lip with nothing more technical than E7018 low-hydrogen electrodes provided the correct precautions are taken before, during, & after welding. Rocket science it ain't.
A friend convinced me to bolt them on in case I need to remove them to make a smooth surface.
That’s what I would do
Awesome thread! Although my old Hough is not in need of much you have done. I have been going thru it and doing all the neglected maintenance and fixing stuff as I go. Fun to read of someone else willing to go thru all the efforts to keep these old machines going.
Get the pics yet?
What year is your Hough? I like old iron, and can’t afford new iron anyway. So it’s a good fit.
1977, according the the IH tag on the dash. The simplicity of these old machines is awesome! On mine, a few bolts and the floor is out or side panel off, and you have really good access to get to stuff.
Some of mine is that way, but a lot of it is behind something, or just really crammed in with other stuff. I’m learning it though, it has come a long way. In my opinion a really well designed and built machine, just very neglected by the previous owner.
When I was getting ready to leave with my trailer load of firewood the other day, I turned around a stump too close and couldn’t move the vehicle. The stump was between the tow rig and trailer, probably some sliding happened too. I fired the loader back up and lifted the back end of the trailer up with a chain hooked to the frame, then pushed it away from the stump. That did the trick. Sorry no pics/video, I just wanted to get out of there. Without the loader I probably would have had to disconnect the trailer.
I had this made for the back of the loader, so I don’t have to mess with the pin every time. It’s a 2” diameter pin, and the counterweight makes it hard to get to. It has to come in from the bottom, because it’s stepped bigger at the bottom. I think the original was the smaller diameter all the way, and came in from the top. I couldn’t find an original one, and made this to fit.
BTW, the last time I ran coolant through for 25 minutes, and it started right up without ether.
Took this thing off to see what makes it tick, nothing is sloppy. See how the pedal is twisted in the third pic? It just spins on there, not good when you are trying to apply the brakes. I was thinking of tack welding it.
I used this to drag logs out into the open so I can work on them. Works good, easier than dealing with the pin every time.
A little muddy on the weekend.
I’ve been looking for log forks/grapple, tilted the bucket to better visualize attachment points.
No forest fires there for a while!! And probably no viruses, either... I sure like your work on your loader! You've done a heck of a good job! Jon.
The fires haven't really affected that area. We have a very small number of virus cases in the county, I don’t even know anyone who knows anyone who has it. Thanks, it’s finally paying off. I used it the other day to lift some oak over logs I didn’t want to disturb, so I could get it out to where I could work on it. I was gonna pull it, but that would have just pulled it into the other stuff.
I use it to dump firewood into a pile, and the same with the limbs and broken pieces.
That looks like an emergency brake handle with a foot pedal welded to it. What is it?
It’s a parking brake handle with a foot pedal welded to it, it’s factory.
Terex was always different.
I took it off to figure out why it doesn’t lock into the applied position. I think it’s engaging the brake before the lever goes over center as shown in the diagram above, so I need to make the link a little longer. I can also tack weld the pedal while it’s out.
If the pedal is attached to the top of that if I remember right that is an adjustment where the top turns a few of the school busses mom drove had that type of handle
Yes. I recognized it right off, we had them in the Army.
Someone on another forum pointed out that the pin not only goes through the rod clevis and the link attached to the handle, but it also goes through the slot in the bracket. That had not occurred to me. So that is probably the problem. I ordered a longer pin and new all thread already.
I’m contemplating bolting something like this on in place of the rear weight, this would also be a “weight”.
A local place got bucket teeth, pins, and adapters/shanks for me. They’re not what they’re supposed to be. Supposed to be for an 1-1/8” lip. The smaller part towards the tooth end is 1.0”, the rest is way bigger. He showed me what he ordered in the book, the part number matching what he got is for an 1-1/8” lip. So I can’t blame him, the book is wrong. The book also showed one opening width for the lip, and the mounting holes far apart. So it’s all different. He didn’t even catch it, I did. When I first told him they weren’t right, he kept loading them in my truck. Then I got a tape out of the glove box, and told him these aren’t what I asked for, I can’t use them. That got his attention. He called the supplier right away, they asked him for pictures. He’s gonna try and get something that’ll work. He also offered to ask for a discount, and I could make them work somehow.
When I started, the fine adjust was backed all the way off. I couldn’t even get the pin in. Then I had to tighten it a lot to get a range of motion.
Welded three spots on the parking brake lever, so the pedal won’t spin. I should be able to have a working parking brake now.
Parking brake works, finally. It holds on our driveway hills. Forward and back. Had to get it really tight to hold. I had to clean out the brake drum, from when the steering hydraulic control valve above it started leaking again last December. I hung a funnel with a hose under the steering control valve, to divert any leak. In case it starts leaking again. I know “red neck“, but I can’t take any chances on the brake letting go. That wouldn’t be pretty. I‘ve already made use of it, to hold in place while I rig and lift the oak logs I plan to have milled into lumber. I wanted them off the ground, I cut and put about 10” logs under them.
Got some teeth and adapters, still have to put corresponding holes in the bucket.
It starts on, so it can’t need much metal removed.
I thought the transfer case front output seal was leaking, but the drive flange retainer bolts were loose. One was snapped off, the other snapped off when I touched it. I think that’s because of driving it a short distance with the parking brake applied, I haven't made that mistake since. I installed the new seal anyway, since I was ready to do it.
That’s all the work I did this time, then I put it to use.
Now thats one helluva E-brake! If its on you shear the machine apart!! As Crocodile Dundee would say, "now thats a BRAKE!!" Grade 8's or L9's go in now? By the way, have you done any experimental drilling on the bucket edge? I'm kinda hoping it is softer than I think--soft enough to take shocks when digging and hitting rocks, but hard enough to slow down the wear...and soft enough to let a drill do its work... Jon.
It didn’t shear, it popped the heads off. They were grade 8s, replaced with grade 8s. Test drilling was on my list, but I didn’t get to it last time. Might have to torch it I suppose.
I have this on the way. Will need to plumb another valve for it, and no I don’t know where to get fluid.
Bucket is soft enough to dill.
Anyone know where to plumb in an auxiliary valve? The so called master catalog doesn’t show it.
The forks are here.
I hauled it up there yesterday.
Brought one grapple cylinder home, will probably do the other one in place. Couldn’t get one of the pins out.
I’m working on getting seals by size. Pulled it apart with a come along. There was no fluid on top of the piston, so it’s on the rusty side.
The nut really didn’t want to come off. I’m still going to wire wheel the parts.
Not sure if I missed it was that grapple originally on a Cat machine? Those cylinder parts look like Cat parts along with the yellow paint! Any numbers stamped on the piston or a tag on the outside of the barrel?
The piston has numbers.
I don’t know the history.
5J9884 No tag on the barrel.
I’ve been chatting with Cat online, he said that’s not a valid part number. He said the same about the gland part number I gave him, 6J3282. He said he can’t help without model number and serial number.
Hummmmmmmmmm that's interesting?????????? Take a look at the attached pdf. Not the items #3 and items #11 Look to be real numbers to me! It's possible that they are no longer available but are real numbers.
And just for fun I did a search for parts to reseal one of these: Some of the big parts do come up as not available but looks like all the soft parts should be! The parts that have YM after the description are Cat aftermarket parts. YM= Yellow Mark
Awesome! For the record I told the Cat guy he was seriously lacking in parts finding skills, and gave him a bad review.
In your last image the part numbers are different. Are those new Cat numbers? Or through another company? Can you link the webpage? I might just order through them and get it over with. Thanks.
Were the last two parts only available YM?
Okay I registered on Cat and did my own. I did the two bottom parts as Cat and not YM, Cat is about double the price. Have you used the YM? Good quality? The other prices are just a tad more than on your list.
Sorry, came to party a little late. Basically the 5J-9884 Piston fits two cylinder groups. 6J-4513 (that KSH found already) and 6J-4515. Both are listed for log fork arrangements for various wheel & tracked loaders. The difference between the two cylinders is the stroke - 19.38" vs 23.90". So measure the inside of the cylinder barrel from the head flange to the bottom and immediately it will show which one of the two possibilities you have. The difference between them is in the barrel and the rod, all other parts including the seals are the same between the two cylinder groups.
I’m thinking the stroke won’t have an effect on the seals used, should be the same.
That second list of parts with prices is what SIS from Cat changes the original numbers to when I selected them from the first list so it may be that some of the parts are now only available as Yellow Mark. It has been over five years since I was actually working on this equipment so can't say one way or another about the Yellow Mark parts these days. Back then we did use some of them and only problem we had was one track adjuster ram, I believe it was, where there was a machining problem that the pressure vent valve bore was wrong and it would not close enough to seal. One question, is the piston hole for the ram a tapered or straight bore. I seem to recall there was that difference between two of the cylinders I had seen. Then again that should not effect the fit of the seals. The biggest problem I could see if your piston has the straight bore would be in getting the ram back in the head/gland of the cylinder. We had the tapered sleeves for that part or in some cases made our own tools for that.
Yes, I figured out where the part number changes came from when I did it myself. I ordered already. All Cat, no YM. Piston is tapered bore, should make it easier. My only concern right now is the groove inside the head is deeply pitted, not sure the outside of the seal will seal.
The barrel is 23-3/8” deep.
If you’re talking about the wiper seal put some Permatex number 2 in the bore before you install it.
No, the seal behind the wiper. Same thing?
If you mean the groove for seal #7 then Permatex would work. Also some Loctite bearing fit or similar when you install the wiper seal #8 would also be a good idea.
Nige, could you mean #6, #8 looks like the bolt. Kind of fuzzy numbers, they both look like 8.
Yes.
Wiper is #6.
Good spot, I mistook the 6 for an 8.
Hey Ed I really appreciate this post, I just bought my first piece of heavy equipment, a 1972 72-41 Terex. I own a towing company and salvage yard so luckily I found this one with 12 foot forks on it so we can move vehicles around. I have been around rollbacks, race cars, street rods, and stuff like that my whole life but I'm not super familiar with big equipment. can you tell me what fluid you use in your transmission, I believe mine is an Allison 3630? thats one of my biggest issues right now if you could help me out I'd appreciate it. Also do you have a good source for parts, info, or literature for these machines?
I use 15W40. The previous owner suggested it because it’s leaking. I’ve since found it is one of the recommended fluids, but I forget where I saw it. I’ve bought parts from Terex, but they’ve since sold the loader division to Mecalac (888) 632-2522, I haven’t tried to buy anything from them yet. That’s for loader specific stuff, a lot of it is the same as articulated trucks and I get it from Terex. I’ve bought parts from Hulco too (816) 690-4577. I got parts manual from Sycamore (812) 477-2266. Some manuals are on eBay too.
Thank you so much! Youre saying 15w40 gear oil correct?
15W40 isn’t gear oil, it’s Diesel engine oil.
I got the parts from UPS. The backup rings are missing, even though they’re on the packing list.
I went down to Cat today, the backup rings are ordered and I’m supposed to have them in a day.
This?
The loader developed a low power issue last time I used it. What should I check? It barely ran, so I put it away.
Any symptoms?
Ran rough, and low RPMs. Could shut off and restart, but same problem.
This one also says “Bearing Fit”.
Assuming filters changed?
Fuel filters changed 2-3 years ago. Oil filter not changed. I have the oil filter, and new fuel filters too.
I would start with easy stuff first fuel flow from supply pump ,fuel filter ,when you take it off see if it’s full. Check air filter and tubes for blockages.
I haven’t replaced the air filter, I’ll look at it. Thanks.
If it's been three years and it's been sitting without a full tank of fuel or the fuel cap leaks I would try draining off the bottom of the tank IF it has a drain valve and I would just change the fuel filters to rule it out.
It only sits through the winter, and I fill it before winter sets in. Right now it’s about an inch above the bottom of the screen.
With the fuel that low anything in the bottom of the tank will get stirred up easily. changing the fuel filters should fix the issue.
I was thinking that’s not very low on a 50 gallon tank. That’s it between the bucket and the cab. I’ll take the filters up next time.
I went by yesterday, I was nearby and had some time to spare. I dumped in 5 gallons of fuel and checked a few things. I didn’t realize how much dust was getting sucked into the air filter, it was bad. A lot came out each time I knocked it on the rear weight, I’ll go up next time with a new one. That might be all it was. We’ll see.
I also measured for a throttle return spring. It sometimes gets stuck at full throttle, and lubing it only works for a short time.
I got the cylinder back together yesterday. The sealing surfaces of the piston and gland are rough. They wanted stupid money for new pistons. I didn’t really look for glands, I would expect them to be more. So I’ll just hope for the best. The rod fits pretty snug now, before it moved freely on there. I still can’t get up there to do the other cylinder, fire evacuation area. Even though it didn’t burn and there’s a route in without crossing a burn area, they’d have to put up 4 road blocks to keep us from taking a road that crosses over to the burned houses area. I can understand them not wanting to mess with that.
Is the lip on the outside(wiper seal) facing the correct way? It looks like it is facing in, which in most cases would be incorrect
I put the metal lip facing out, if I turned it around there would only be glue holding the plastic in. I thought that couldn’t be right. I didn’t look at the lip.
Wipers have to wipe the dust and dirt off the shaft, therefore the lip faces out to accomplish that task. When the wipers let dirt and dust past, it is only a matter of time until the main rod seal starts to leak. Whenever i install wipers, i use some red loctite around the outer circumference to help hold them in place. Some wipers are held in with a snap ring which makes for a positive retention
I think you didn’t understand me. I was talking about the plastic part of the wiper separating from the metal part of the wiper because the metal part of the wiper would be open end out if I turned it around.
it shouldn't separate. usually they are bonded together very well. i don't recall ever seeing one separate- maybe someone else has.
I looked at the other seal more closely and noticed it has a very small bit of plastic on the other side of the metal lip, apparently to hold it. I’ll pull it apart and turn it around. I expect to have to put the new one in, and order another.
Done. It was easier the second time around.
That looks better.
Might get back up to the loader in a few days, they’re lifting the fire evacuation orders little by little. Still a few more zones before we can get to it. This is one of the ways in, and the fire that did this was heading for our place. A fire break stopped it, a fire break that was intended to stop fire from going the other direction. This is not my loader. It’s a Case W7 that was along the way in shown in the video, it was operational. I don’t know the guy, but I remember seeing it.
I'll take the snow we get here in Western New York any day compared to that. May takes us a day or two to get it moved out of the way, but that is a rare occasion. Way to much destruction from a fire. Sad to see! Hope all is well with you!
These catastrophic fires used to be rare, but decades of the Sierra club forcing “leave the Forest alone “ management has caused this. Every time the F.S. planned mechanical thinning or prescribed burns to reduce fuel in the Forest, they would tie it up with lawsuits. It didn’t have to be this way. This was proven by private forest within the same area, the fire didn’t burn it. A power company managed Forest.
At 00:33 in the video, there’s a tractor that survived. An early sixties International Scout that survived at 00:39. The house with both of them burned down.
as long as that wiper is all the way in, you should be ok. usually they are flush with the outside edge
It wouldn’t go in any more, and it has red Loctite.
Should be good then
Changing fuel and air filters had little affect. The pedal use to respond instantly.
Check for fuel and air restrictions first. Filters etc. 2nd place id look is at the valve rack. Could be a stuck plunger in an injector.
Sounds odd, is there a bad exhaust leak on one cylinder? I agree might be time to pull valve cover and see if there is something not right in there with the injectors. Forget if you mentioned what engine we are dealing with being a Terex I'm assuming Detroit a 71 or 53 series? I've been busy trying to fix brakes on a Michigan in Minn! Along with some other machines.
It does sound odd, it’s a new sound that came with the low power. I’m not aware of an exhaust leak. When it leaked before it was obvious, you could see it coming out from under the engine cover sheet metal. I don’t see that now. 4-71 engine. I don’t have engine manuals, I’m about to order them.
Sounds like you got a dead cylinder. Check for a bent injector push rod.
How easy to drop the exhaust manifold off the engine on that machine? I'd be tempted to see if it was blowing smoke out of one cylinder. Another idea is to feel for heat on each port of the manifold while it is running to see if one is staying cold while the other three start to get warm. Just to get an idea of where to start looking. Then clean around the valve cover good and remove it and just look at things. Maybe post a picture or two if something looks strange. If possible have someone turn engine over by hand while you watch things like rocker arms moving up and down. Many things I know I or someone else here would see right off just by looking but might be hard to describe in text form here. Main thing are all rockers moving about the same amount, do injector plunger go up and down the same amount, and do things just plain look right from one cylinder to the next. Do you know if this is a four valve head engine or two valve head, assuming it's a four valve so look for a valve bridge out of place. If you don't know what a valve bridge is it is a piece that sets on top of two valves the the rocker arm pushes down on to move two valves at the same time. I don't have an Inline service manual handy but most of what you need to know would be in a V-71 manual, I do have an Inline parts book so I could post some pictures if that would help.
Exhaust manifold comes off easy. I don’t know if 2 or 4 valve. I ordered engine service and parts catalog yesterday.
Id think you will see the problem by popping off the valve cover. Ive had injectors stick before.
Someone told me this in another forum. “stuck injectors equal runaways or stuck throttle on detroits.”
The rack can stick and cause a runaway, but the plunger can stick down and cause a no-fuel condition on that one cylinder. The rocker arm will have gross clearance if that happens.
Guess I spent too much time with 12's and 16's is why I like to narrow it down to one cylinder, with a inline four there's not that many options. So unless manifold is easier than V.C. I might reach of the V.C. Actually if there is any clearance between an injector plunger and rocker arm there is a problem with the injector! And I try to never say never because a machine will always slip one past you when you are not watching!
I always get the problems no one has ever seen before.
Exhaust manifold would be easy to remove compared to valve cover.
I got a diverter valve, and looked into where it’ll need to go. I know which hoses need to go where, I need to mount it and take measurements for hoses to be made. I plan on using a momentary foot switch, and then the dump lever will clamp and unclamp the logs. Pushing forward to clamp.
I have an equipment dealer service manager friend saying to make hoses all the way out. Mine has the clamp blocks like in the picture, but no tubes. I would need separate hoses with elbow fittings to make the same routing. Then what? Wire the hose to the clamp blocks to keep it secure? The clamp block corners would dig into the hoses eventually. I posed the same questions to him, no response yet. I like the cleanness and secure, durable fastening of the tubing. I know it’s not as straight forward to accomplish though. The hoses hanging down in this picture are for forklift side shift, best I can tell.
I brought the grapple hoses down to have them replaced. I noticed they are smaller from loader to the pipe T (7/8” wrench) than they are from T to the cylinders (1-1/8” wrench). Is that normal?
I got the engine service manual now.
The manual says to use 30 wt engine oil. Would 15W40 be a problem?
I’m gonna be back up there soon. I will check for heat at the exhaust, and maybe pull the valve cover.
Ive used 15 w40 for years without an issue
In a 2 cycle Detroit?
They prefer a single over a multi grade. Something with low ash content. Post this specific question alone and the experts will weigh in.
Oil rated CF-2 is for Detroit 2 stroke engines. Use only straight weight 30 or 40. CF-2 is a low ash oil made for 2 stroke engines. Delo 100 is a CF-2 .
Yes. I know they call for straight 30 wt but i run 15w40 in all of my big diesels so my 471 gets it too. Havent had any issues in 20 years yet.
I started the engine and checked for heat at the exhaust manifold. Three cylinders were getting too hot to touch, and I could still hold my hand against the fourth. It was cold. The cylinder closest to the bell housing. Might get the valve cover off today.
Sounds like it could be an injector problem. Could be other things but let's hope it is the injector! Let us know what you see when VC is off.
I went to take the valve cover off, there was dirt and crud around it. I remembered reading in the manual to clean first to avoid getting contamination inside, it looked like that would happen. I will take the pressure washer next time. If you’re wondering about the tree branch, I dropped the clamp nut and wanted to keep it closed up in the meantime. I put plywood over it before I left too. That’s the steering tank above the engine.
Is there a part number in the Detroit book for that holdown? And not to wish any bad luck on you but if you find that you do have a stuck injector I have a feeling which one it will be!
I haven’t looked. I assumed the nut would be captured in there, and so I didn’t look at it. Looking at it afterwards I think it’s an oversized square nut.
How will I know it’s an injector? Process of elimination? If the valve train is good, it’s the injector.
Not an expert but just went through this. You will most likely see a plunger stuck down.
That would be the first things I would be looking for, you would have to turn engine over to be able to see it. Turn engine by hand to get the valves open on one cylinder at a time and look for one injector where there is a gap between it's rocker arm and the plunger. Another quick check would be to carefully remove the pin that connects the rod from the governor to the tube with the levers that operate the injector racks and make sure all the racks move in and out nice and free. I say carefully remove the pin as there are oil drain back holes in the head right near where you are removing the pin and you don't want to drop the pin or cotter pin! A small rag tucked under the lever can be a good safety net! Any questions once you get valve cover off post a couple pictures of what you are seeing! I know you have the manual so that will be of some help, one of us can probably tell you the chapter number you need to go to for more detailed information.
Not sure I can get good pictures with the steering tank over the engine.
Give it a try even if not the best someone might be able to spot something! Even if you can't get the part under the tank!
I got the second cylinder apart, it’s in better condition. This doesn’t need machining, it looks good enough. Nut is missing the Teflon.
Teflon holds the nut from loosening. I'd just use red locktite to hold it
Seems to me that you might want to check the torque specs for the piston nut. They are usually very high. The guys with cat access should be able to tell you what is recommended. I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the 300 ft-lb range. A new nut with the nylon lock would be good insurance. Jon.
Refresh me on the number for the cylinder so I can get info if possible off SIS.
I looked back on the thread- Nige said on Jul 23 that the cylinder groups were either 6J4513 or 6J4515, the difference being the stroke. Apparently, this application is the longer stroke, but which part no. is the longer stroke is not clear. Jon.
Best I can find right now is specs for the 6J4515 cylinders.
I've never had a torque wrench that large. Whenever we did a cylinder on our equipment it was red loctite and get it as tight as possible with whatever we had. We didn't do many of them but none ever came apart. This is an old loader he's working on and not used everyday so I think it would be just fine.
That is probably true but we did torque the nuts on the cylinders we did 90% of the time. Originally we just had 4:! torque multipliers so for the 1600 foot pound needed to use a large 3/4 inch torque wrench and get up to 400 Lb/Ft. Then we inherited from another part of the company a 16:1 multiplier that included a back stop system so now 1600Lb/Ft was even easier needing only a little 1/2 torque wrench! Biggest trick was holding the ram while applying the torque. Once we had the 16:1 I came up with the idea of drilling a hole in the welders bench, it had something like a two inch thick top, Then using a 30 ton OTC twin cylinder ram we put the rod on the bench with a spacer under the pin end and used 30 ton ram to clamp it solid to the table. Table acted as a stop for the reaction arm of the multiplier and then it was a simple one hand job to work the torque wrench up to 1600 Lb/Ft If ram was too long for table just let the nut end stick out the end and use a jackstand to support the end of ram and another to act as the reaction arm support. Besides the weight of the table it always had a couple tons of crap on the lower shelf so it never moved!
Did a little more digging and hit somewhat of a road block. Going back through this thread I see from the part number I see of 5J9884 that this piston and ram are of the tapered type. The spec's I found are for an updated design with a straight shaft and straight bore in the piston so now I'm not sure if the torques I posted in that chart are correct and so far have not been able to find a spec. for the tapered version.
Gents, I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cornflakes here. If I offended anyone, I am sorry. All I am saying is that there is a recommended torque for cylinder rod pistons and it is very high for a reason. This reason does not apply in this application of grapple forks because all the cylinder has to do when retracting is to lift the grapple forks open. It will rarely see any significant retraction loads. So all the original poster needs to do is to know he should do his best to tighten the piston nut as tight as possible with the equipment he has. Loctite is great; a new nylock nut would be helpful, too. Jon.
Ordered.
I used a 3/4 impact on the first cylinder, and blue Locktite.
I got a control handle for the dump lever, to work the log forks. The threads I needed wasn’t an option, so I drilled it out and tapped it. I have a jam nut ordered. Next time up I need to figure out what I need to build to mount the diverter valve. There’s nothing convenient to bolt it to, and can’t really get in there to drill holes. Might end up making a bracket I can weld to the machine.
I considered letting the diverter valve hang off a fitting like on my log splitter, I have someone telling me not to do that.
Jon, no problem I actually prefer Cheerios! And for this application I agree if things are cleaned of oil so loctite can get a good bond and as tight as the 3/4 inch impact can get it should be more than enough. I'm probably a bit on the fussy side and can get carried away trying to be exact on things like this. It's more of the thrill of the search for the information than anything else! Might be a different story if we were talking about the nut that holds the piston to the steering ram on an off highway truck where a failure cold have major repercussions. Or the swing gear bearing on CraneOperators rig!
I cleaned the threads all the way around with the wire wheel on a bench grinder, then blew them off with compressed air. I cleaned the nut threads with a wire brush that looks like a bottle brush, in a drill press. Then blew them off. And this was after pressure washing them.
Here’s what I’m going to use to control the grapple.
I had two 72-61 loaders with the logger package. They originally had air over hydraulic controls for the third valve which is the grapple. This was terribly erratic and destroyed grapple cylinders. I changed to morse remote cables like the other two functions and it was smooth to operate and easier on grapple cylinders.
Something like this? How well do you think it’ll work the way I’m setting it up?
MG, For my 2cents worth, you might find the control cable setup a little nicer, since you can feather the valve a little for speed control. The solenoid control is full on/full off. The only way you could get a little speed control with the solenoid is to use a flow control valve that will fix the speed-- you could probably use 2 valves, one to control the open and the other control the close speeds. My vote would be for the simple--cable control manual valve. On the valve mounting, don't hang it off the piping. Vibration or a tree branch will wipe it off-eventually. Mount it solidly with bolts and a welded plate mounting bracket I noticed that your grapple forks are what I call "US" style, where each grapple fork is separate. I'm familiar with "Canadian" style grapples where both sides are connected together so they close as a unit. Do you need to use a flow divider to make the forks move evenly or does one close onto a log with the second one following when the first one bottoms out? I've attached a photo of a "Canadian" log grapple. Jon.
The machines had two manual levers with morse cables like you are showing ,I built a third lever and used a morse cable on it also. I assume your system will not be graduated and the function will be fast and very rough. Cylinders start to internally by-pass and grapple will not stay open or closed. We even broke the eye off the end of the cylinder rod.
Where were you guys before I bought that valve?
I know of at least one U.S. company that makes the style you pictured, maybe in Georgia. No idea who originated that style though.
The forks only had a tee, no valve.
I think you guys aren’t understanding what I’m doing. I will push a momentary button that’ll switch one lever from dump to clamp/unclamp, so I will still have the finesse of the lever. Then I let go of the button and it goes back to dump again.
My apologies Ed I now understand what you are doing. I guess you realize you will be limited by not being able to use all functions at once.
Yes, I’m not punching a clock though. I could let go of the momentary button and tilt if need be, then push again and clamp or unclamp. I could get use to that.
So you’re saying the original Terex way was what you thought I was doing? Open or close, no lever? I’m glad I didn’t find one to buy used, I would have found out the hard way. Actually it sounds like none would have survived.
Nut is here.
Not sure that nut will work the nylon locking isn't Terex Green! Or Cat yellow! Maybe if you sneak it in when no one's watching you can get away with it!
I guess it’s too late to paint it. The truth is already out there.
hey, you never told us what you found under the valve cover with the injectors. or did i miss it somewhere?
Yes inquiring minds need to know!
I haven’t made it back up. Now it’s snowing up there, and supposed to be about 13 degrees tonight. I haven’t attempted that driveway with snow on it. It slopes with the hill, and gravity will probably have different ideas than I do. It’s not necessarily put off until spring though, it often warms back up before winter sets in for good. We’ve had a couple years recently with a month and a half of no snow after the first fall snow. The nearby town 300 feet higher. Also nearby, and 1,200 feet lower.
Dang, what's with all the white stuff? Wife and I did two 50+ mile rides on the motorcycles the last couple days, would have done another today but bad headache killed that idea! Had temps in the upper 60's and low 70's for a few days! Might be more the next day or so! Might want to move from California to Central NY to get away from that stuff, but if you do make it fast cause in a couple weeks I think it will be a bit different here!
The loader’s at 5,200 feet in the mountains, that’s what’s will all the white stuff. Ha ha. It doesn’t snow down here where we live. No, I won’t be moving to New York, I know better than that. My wife is from Buffalo originally. I hope it melts off and I can get back up there, we’ll see. The snow is putting a damper on the fire.
I got this and annular cutters to drill holes for the bucket teeth.
Well here near Syracuse we are looking at around 75ºF today, won't make any promises for next Monday!
Down here it’s supposed to warm up 11 degrees over the next week, up there it’s supposed to warm up 17 degrees in the same time. Still too cold for the snow to melt though.
Did you see my response to this on page 19?
I didn’t pay any attention to the backup ring when I put it in the first cylinder, oops. Should I take it apart, it might be backwards?
Buffalo have 4 feet
Sorry, I only just noticed this and should have made it clear earlier. 6J-4513 Cylinder Assy is 19.38" stroke 6J-4515 Cylinder Assy is 23.90" stroke. Both cylindewrs are 5.00" bore. Difference in parts between the two are the rod and the cylinder barrel. Everything else is the same.
Everything looked like it went up and down. I turned the key, I didn’t have a wrench with enough leverage to turn it over by hand. And not a big enough cheater. Two cylinders had a little slack in the rockers, two were tight.
Two cylinders had slack in which rockers? The injectors are not supposed to have slack, they get preloaded.
I forget which ones.
Both rockers had about the same slack, on two cylinders.
the centre rocker lever of each group of 3 is the injector. also check for cracked injector lines. they usually crack around the flair under the nut. usually caused by overtightening which may cause eventual failure. were you able to tell which cylinder is running cold?
I looked at the lines, but not thoroughly. And not by the flare. Wouldn’t a cracked injector line add diesel to the engine oil? There’s no evidence of that. The cylinder closest to the bell housing is the one running cold.
I had to block the steering tank up to get the valve cover out.
I didn’t check the middle one. Next time up I’ll know more what to look for, and put more time on it.
as far as leaking a lot of fuel into the crankcase, it would depend on how long you ran it after it started missing. also check for a bent injector push rod on the bad cylinder. i think i had that happen once in a 4-71 but that was 40+ yrs ago and my memory isn't as good as it used to be
If the push rod was bent enough to be a problem, wouldn’t it be obvious? They all looked even, to the eye anyway. I’m thinking I need to switch two injectors now. I haven’t looked that up in the manual yet. I should be able to go back up in a few days.
they are such a short pushrod you have to look very closely
It looks the same as this.
Also Rotella T1.
It was a standard 1/4-20 with 7/16” hex. I had two in my nuts and bolts collection.
I really didn’t pay attention to the injectors, and ran out of time. I will look next time, and try to talk my son into going to help. Otherwise it’ll be tough to turn the engine over by hand, and look at what’s going on at the same time.
Someone said to switch two injectors to see if the problem goes with the injector or stays with the cylinder, good idea?
Well, yours is not quite the same. Yours has a 4 valve head and the rigid levers on the rack control tube. The 6V71 in the video has 2 valve heads and the newer style spring-loaded rack control levers. The governor setting procedure may also be different depending on what governor yours has
You could swap injectors but be aware that when you do that you will have to set the injector timing with the special timing pin and adjust the rack control levers on both the injectors you swapped
You really need to come up with something to let you turn the engine over by hand so you can stop it while the two outer rockers on the cylinder in question are all the way down on the valve bridges. Then check to see that there is no gap under the rocker for the injector where the red arrow is pointing in the picture. Also I would suggest removing the pin in the linkage where the yellow arrow is pointing, be very careful to not drop cotter or the pin it's holding in! Then work that tube by hand to see that all the rods coming out of the injectors that the levers work and coming in and out nice and free on all the injectors. Forget how much they move seems like it's about 1/2 to 3/4 in travel. Main thing is that tube that work the injectors works very free.
Here’s a 6-71, seems to be the same procedure.
You are welcome to try that but I would not stand too close to it when starting. I mean if the bad guys were coming fast over the hill and the only way to get out of the trouble I might but not on a machine I had money invested in or a real need to see it run for more than a few minutes. Next time it decided to stick it could be at full throttle and you might only have a few seconds to get clear before parts start flying. Especially as your engine has the two screw levers on the control tube that means one injector stuck at full fuel means all are stuck at full fuel!
Nothing against the guy making those videos but when he was taking the "things" off the top of the valves and did not know they were called "Valve Bridges" it makes me question how much he really knows.
Thanks for that. The mechanic in the video even said that once the injectors are at that point, they’re on borrowed time. I thought “then why do it, just replace them”.
He’s a do it yourselfer who knows very little, but gets through it. My impression anyway. I still get to see the pieces involved.
So my next time up I’ll look for a stuck injector by having someone turn the engine over, and by carefully removing the pin so I can move it by hand to see if everything is moving freely? If an injector is stuck I’ll remove it and bring it down for match up and core? Plus I have a larger diameter cheater pipe I can take so I can turn the engine by hand.
I'm thinking I recall you have a Detroit service manual right? If so then if you have a Digital Calipers you can use them to adjust the injector timing or just use them to compare from one cylinder to the next. I know some people can get all kinds of fussy on setting things but for many applications close is good enough at least on an old Terex! Heck you could use a wooden ruler and get it close enough to know if it was going to run. Then you could get the genuine factory tool. Just took a quick look and the prices some are asking is crazy $50 to $80! Some are almost sane but others??? If you don't have the book let me know and I could scan a couple pages.
I have the service manual. I intend to read this section soon. I have dial calipers. What factory tool?
i guess i am one of the very fussy guys. that was the way my instructor taught it. you used to be able to buy the timing pins individually-they weren't that expensive, maybe they are now. the timing pin is only about 2 1/4" long and may be easier to work with under your fuel tank. my theory is that if you are in there and its awkward to get at, do it right and only do it once. on the other hand, its your time and money- not a customer's and you are still diagnosing the problem
Why would you want another one? In case you lose it? It’s worn?
they were available in different lengths for different settings-ie. 1.484, 1.460,1.470, etc. you could only buy the one you need if you only needed it once. there should be a tag( if it is still there) on the valve cover which will indicate which one is needed if no one has changed the factory spec for whatever reason. ya they are small an could be possibly lost or the tiny tip could be carelessly bent
I don’t remember a tag, I can look closer.
i added to the last post. the tag will have the engine model, s/n, engine rpm, hp, original timing spec, etc
There’s a tag with serial number on the side, I forget if there’s anything else on it.
Look on the injector body for a round tag like N-55 . Before you pull the injector You could measure the injector height with the valves down should be close enough . Bob
For what purpose?
So you would know what height yours are set at. Bob
here is what the timing pin/gauges look like
Here's a link to one I saw on Flesbay: https://www.ebay.com/i/261148912702?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28 Not saying that is the right one for your engine just an example of what they look like. Look at the top of the injector and there will be a small hole about 1/8 inch that the small end of that tool fits in and the wide part sits on the top that the rocker pushes against to measure the height. The one in the link is 1.460 that is the actual measurement of the height in inches. Different engine and injectors would be set to different spec's. I was suggesting using your calipers to measure that dimension to see if one was way off from others. As Bluox says you need to measure the injector with the valves fully open on the cylinder, that puts the cam follower for the injector on the base circle of the cam for that cylinder. EDIT! I see 56wrench posting while I was typing!
Is there a tag on the side of the valve cover? Detroit was good about giving you all the special option information there if some one had not removed it!
There is something. I noticed it while pressure washing, but didn’t look at it once I had the valve cover off. The throttle bracket conceals it when in place.
While at that link I saw this pic. It shows the gauge in use. https://www.ebay.com/itm/3350-Injec...IOnTopCombiner&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982
I just can't see paying $40+ for that little piece of steel! Especially for a one time job or just to do a quick check of the adjustment. But if you can find out which one you do need there is a good chance you can, with a little searching, find one online for 1/3 or 1/4 of that price. I'd have to check if I still have any in my tool box. If I have the size you need I could be very reasonable!
The book calls for J-8932-01 tool for the fuel line nuts, it doesn’t come up in a search. But J-8932-B does come up. Close enough? Or is this the wrong section.
I have 6” dial calipers with depth base, might fit in there with the base. It keeps it square.
From the manual. One was too big to load.
More.
I’m trying o get familiar before I go back up.
These are from the valve and injector section.
That socket is not really needed for removing the line but is handy when tightening then to the correct torque. Then again if one has a good feel for tightening things you can get away with just using a 1/2 inch open end wrench. If by chance you have a 1/2 inch crows foot socket or 1/2 inch flare nut socket you might be able to get that in there. I did find the one timing tool I have for setting the injector height not sure which you need but I'm thinking this is not the one for your engine. The one I have is the J-1242 which is 1.484 inches. But you need to check which injectors you have and see what your manual calls for. If there is a tag on the valve cover it may have information there that could help. Just for fun before you pull any injectors I would try measuring where yours are set right now. Beware you need to check them with the valves open!
I’m not sure the manual has specs specific to the 4 cylinder, I haven't got that far. Is the reamer necessary to remove carbon?
No just use a rag on a wire brush. If you get the number on the injector tag I can tell you the height but you still need to measure it. Bob
Yes, I would want to actually measure it on all cylinder to compare them! As for the manual not having the 4 cylinder spec's if it's an inline manual they should be in there actually they might not list them separately for the numbers of cylinders as that should not be any different, just need to know if it's a two or four valve engine and the injector number. I think I recall the color of the tag may be important info too!
I’m thinking it does, I just haven’t got to that part yet.
I’ve got these, and my son is going with me next time. He can turn it. Can’t get a ratchet and socket in there, the fan cage is too close.
If you are going to fool around with the injectors make sure the air shut off on the blower is free and works so you have a chance to stop a runaway. Bob
It is, I checked recently.
Everything’s good up top, this is the non firing cylinder.
Anybody know what bell housing type this is?
You have a busted liner because the piston has tried to seize up. Bob
Yep does not look good! Sorry don't have a parts book to tell me what the flywheel housing is. I'm assuming that type number would tell you which side the starter is on and what number size the housing is along with other info.
What causes that?
Now that you mention it I remember the manual breaking down the model number, I’ll look again. I ask because I’m looking at replacing it. I’ve never been happy with the power, and would like to go to a turbo. Maybe it was already low power and I would be happy with a fresh rebuild, better on the safe side though. One I’m looking at has the starter on the opposite side, will that work if I run a cable to it? Exhaust is on the same side.
Hard to tell without seeing both of them. Just make sure the engine in question is the same rotation, some boat applications and some others were built with opposite rotation for various applications. One of the good things about Detroits is also one of the bad things about Detroits is that there were deigned to be configured in many different ways! If you have the service manual just look at one of the first pages and it should give you a good idea what you can build one to do! View attachment 230013
Tried editing post above to add a page out of service manual but messed it up so I 'll try putting it here:
So I have an RC engine, the crankshaft turns clockwise when viewed from the fan end. Configuration is the same.
Okay the one I mentioned earlier, there’s no paperwork, no warranty, no return, and he won’t start it for a video because it’s a zero hour rebuild. He bought it at an auction. Makes me leery of buying it. I want proof it works. Another one, the model number is the same except mine is Industrial and it’s power-base, mine is 4 valve N, and it’s turbo. Also I’m not finding a key on “Specific model number”. Mine is 30, and it’s 12. A third one, the only difference is it’s a turbo and the “Specific model number” is 05. And it has a 3 phase generator on it. Our mountain property needs a generator, but I don’t need 3 phase. I’d jump on it if it was single phase, I could put the loader engine on it later. And have the turbo on the loader. Anybody know if the 3 phase can be converted? Not just for one motor, that’s the only type phase converter I’m finding. I’m not finding any other turbos with the correct engine arrangement. Also there isn’t anything in the model number that says the starter location, or maybe that’s in the specific model number?
Also, there’s nothing about the bell housing number. Maybe it’s part of the specific model number.
I’m going to look at an engine tomorrow. What should I look for? It has an oil pressure gauge on it. He says he won’t let me pull the air box covers to inspect the pistons. He insists it’s pristine, very low hours.
I haven’t found anything indicating bell housing type either, are they standard?
As for the application designation, will it still bolt up? They’re just dressed up differently?
Hard to be sure from where I sit but one thing you might keep in mind is if your machine's engine is running a "wet flywheel" you might need to change the rear seal in the replacement engine if it was built to be a dry flywheel application. Not a bad job if you have the tooling to do the job. Someone with the tools could due the job with it sitting in the back of your truck just need to have the flywheel off for access. Other things might depend on the cooling set up on the two engines, like oil coolers and water pump. But most of those would be a matter or moving things from one engine to the other. There might be pumps driven off the timing gears of your engine again should be just a case of moving parts from one to the other most of those things can be swapped without removing the flywheel housing. The best I can say about the flywheel housing in general is you would be best to measure openings and count the bolt holes and take a picture of yours to compare it to the "new engine". Just one more thing I thought of is the oil pan and pump inside. A loader will probably have a scavenger pump to make sure oil gets back to the sump of the pan if running on uneven ground where this would not be needed on a genset, stationery engine or even a truck engine. So you may have to swap some things there too!
all things considered, it may be easier to repair yours. it also depends if you do the work yourself. as kshansen said, there may be all that stuff to change over and also the replacement may need the governor changed, so that would require a valve/injector/governor tune-up. you said yours was lacking in power but that may have been because that cylinder had -been going south for a while-maybe some of the others are too
Now I see why. I could just swap it, right?
I was curious if the engine would already have what the pumps mesh with internally.
Can this be accomplished without removing the engine from the loader? I’m thinking not.
I’m determined to get a turbo. There are steep hills where the loader is, and I figure they upgraded to a turbo later for a reason. I’ll get through it.
I’ve done a lot of this with my International 4 wheel drives over the last 30 plus years. I just need t know what to swap, other than the obvious. You guys are pointing that out. I can dress the new engine up the same as the old, I can get the specifics of how to do that here.
The bell housing measures about 22 inches across.
Aaah that engine is set up as a marine engine . I bet you don't have a keel cooler on your loader. Bob
That red engine sounds a bit lumpy at idle speeds similar to what I think I mentioned about the one in your loader a long time ago. It could just be the recording but the audio on that recording sounds like it came through pretty well to me. A good running 2 cycle engine always has a nice even and clean sound at any RPM.
He thinks I need to leave that on there, I told him it would come off and I’d set it up the same as mine.
We thought it sounded really good. What do you mean by lumpy?
What about my other questions above? I’m ready to buy this thing if you guys think it’ll work. It’s a number 7 arrangement, same as mine.
One problem I see is the placement of the turbo. Were some turbos placed differently?
What is on that motor is a expansion tank , a keel cooler is a heat exchanger in the bottom of a boat. If that motor is really set up as a marine engine your loader won't have nearly enough radiator. Bob
Option plate says it’s “power base” application, it has a 4 in the 4th digit place. Marine would be a number 2 in the 4th digit place.
Bluox knows his stuff. I’d defer to his comments. And yes turbos were placed in many variations.
He’s saying it’s set up as a marine engine, the option plate says otherwise. I’m thinking the marine engine is a different block, am I right? So it’s a power base that’s set up as a marine engine? Plus he hasn’t said anything about its condition.
Well Birken V has noted it sounds funny so there’s that. Hard to determine an engines actual condition without seeing it in operation. I’m not trying to dissuade you just keep you objective.
Well then it might be a former marine genset . If its a water below port block you may have difficulties swaping parts. Don't let me slow you down. Carry on. Good luck Bob
How would I confirm that?
He says it was set up originally to pump water for fire sprinklers in a high rise building, they only removed it because of emissions requirements.
Can I scoot the turbo over, or is that another thing I need to find that’s just right?
Is this engine supposed to have a charge air cooler?
I could build on something like this.
Can the transmission handle the increased torque of the turbo?
Will it be interchangeable with the automatic? Crankshafts are the same?
these are all the reasons i suggested the possibility of patching up what you have. it may be easier and faster
Roger that plus when you get done you know what you have. Bob
So you people aren’t willing to help? Or the questions aren’t answerable right now?
I would only do that if I converted it to a turbo in the process. This is the heaviest model machine with this engine, making it the worst horsepower to weight ratio. Plus it’s at elevation, 5,300 feet.
If it had a problem developing with one cylinder would certainly affect it's power output. I think other posters are trying to help you avoid opening a big can of worms. A proper rebuild should restore the engine to full power. There may be other ways to increase the power a little without requiring a turbo.
I’m listening to you guys, I haven’t jumped on the purchase. I’m not getting enough interaction though.
Agreed, but I’m saying I don’t think I will be happy with that.
but you will not be happy if you cobble together an unknown engine combination and it or the trans grenades. with more power than designed for, you may find a weak link somewhere else in the drivetrain. on a machine that is getting harder to get parts for that is a chance i personally would not take. just pointing that out. ultimately its your call
Agree with 56, not knowing how much safety margin the original components were built with I would be concerned that boosting the power would shorten the life of those pieces. Remember even if the original design had a 15% safety factor in the design that was when ever thing was new! If a nice fresh engine is still not going to be where you need power wise maybe you are trying to do too big of a job with too small a machine? Like they used to say where I worked "You can't put 10 tons of **** in a 5 ton truck and expect it to last!" As for not getting answers to some of those questions, like I said due to the fact that there are many different ways to spec a 4-71 to try to make definite statements about the adapting one to replace another can be something of a mine field especially without having them sitting next to each other. Also due to the age of both these engine the chance some one has made a change to them since that tag was put on at the factory also adds to the problem. Just the fact that on most of those engines the tag is on the valve cover adds a layer of unknowns, is the valve cover even the right one for the engine it is on?
OP was saying that the machine is up in the hills @ 5300ft ASL. Anyone have an approximate idea what is the altitude rating of a 4-71 before the fuel system has to start getting tweaked.? I have no idea but in my experience most big yellow engines are generally good for at least 5,000ft before derating. In many cases significantly more than that.
Non-turbo usually they lose power fast at that elevation. However, I think if that is the case, they will show a lot of black smoke if you get into it. If there is not black smoke then power is simply being limited by fuel quantity injected (injector PN in DD case).
The model number is also stamped on the side of the block, I need to match them next time.
You can see the smoke here.
You seem to be missing some of what I said. The next smaller model machine has the same engine.
that smoke is from the bad piston in your engine. bob
This was before it got bad, or at least before it got really bad.
My searches show the next smaller machine is 3,500 lbs lighter, and has a payload 5,000 lbs less.
Here is all I got , If your motor do have N 65 injectors it should be a 150 HP. motor. It's pulling that bad piston I bet its only putting out around 100 HP. If You lucked out so far you may not have ruined the block. At your alt. the derate should only be 3-6 HP. depending on the temp. If the motor you are looking at is indeed a fire pump it may be 250 HP. + and like the marine engines it is heat exchanger cooled ,you missed the loader keel cooler part. Since your loader has a radiator it won't cool much over a 150 HP. I truly think your best bet would be over haul your motor . But its your zoo and your monkeys so carry on. Good luck Bob
Terex calls it a 160. I don’t understand this. Alt = alternator? I didn’t miss it, that’s one of my questions that didn’t get answered. I asked if it was a different block, and could I still bolt the water pump to it. So it would need a bigger radiator.
7231 shows as 146 flywheel HP. 7241 shows as 153 flywheel HP. Different transmissions and power trains though. Alt. = altitude. TEREX EQUIPMENT.pdf (tractorparts.com) TEREX EQUIPMENT.pdf (tractorparts.com)
Thanks. I hate abbreviations.
That doesn’t sound like enough difference to give the same performance.
It all depends on the full powertrain and condition of the engine. A fresh engine with no issues could make a big difference. If rebuilt could possibly install different pistons and/or injectors to up the power a little. It is a 2 cycle so needs to be wound up to make the most power unlike most 4 cycle diesels. Too much power on an older machine with dwindling parts supply could lead it to an early and expensive grave.
I say more power, Scotty. You're going to run out of traction most of the time. Those Allisons are tough. If you up the HP, just don't get it in a huge bind where it'll break. It's not like you're using it in a mine running 24/7.
I would suggest that instead of whining about the lack of responses with free information, you do a little bit of homework on your own and come back with specific questions or risk receiving nothing but silence.
Someone posted (I think on here) that the guys running this type Terex loader where he used to work would keep it at full throttle and switch the direction back and forth repeatedly, and it never broke anything. If that’s a true story, then reasonable operation with the turbo engine won’t hurt it.
I’m thinking the same way. It has open differentials front and rear, so it’s easier to get something spinning. Thereby keeping it from breaking something.
Have you run one with a fresh engine? You've got a 45 or so year old loader that doesn't exactly have spare parts sitting around collecting dust in a dozen dealerships. I'd suggest keeping it stock if you want it to be the most trouble free.
No. So yes, I get your point. But, it could go either way. Maybe if I ran one with a fresh engine would know it was enough power, or maybe I would know it wasn’t enough power.
Why go to all the trouble to go turbo and tempt fate?
I won’t do it unless I find out the turbo models had the same drivetrain, or same strength drivetrain. I’m not decided yet. I’m still seeking information elsewhere.
So this is a 250 hp engine? Or might be?
Tag on pump says 136.5 Max. brake horse power but that might just be the most the pump would ever require. Is there a tag on the engine?
Yes, but I can’t make out hp.
Here’s one with the hp. And the tag on the valve cover says N95 injectors.
I got the spreader bar set up, then took it off and put the valve cover back on. The spreader bar wouldn’t quite turn upright with the valve cover on.
I’m also making progress on plumbing the diverter valve to run the log grapple, I now have the measurements for the last two hoses.
I ran the hoses all the way out already. I’m thinking the clamp blocks will cut the rubber part of the hose, so I wont leave them in there unless I can put in something to protect them.
I’ll have to read on this. I have someone else saying all I have to do is swap the governor, he thinks you’re misleading me. What is the purpose of what you say?
Stationary engines are designed to do ONE thing, sit at full rpm all day day in day out, there is NO throttle. Will require governor swap and Rack Run on the engine. Any component in Fuel Control replaced, requires the full rack run to get everything in the right settings.
This one does have a throttle, there’s a lever you can bump it up or down with. That’s demonstrated in one of the videos I posted.
Is NOT designed for variable throttle as a machine engine. Swap the governors, worked on both styles and what is on the engine will not respond as a machine engine needs.
I’m not considering “not swapping” the governors, I’m going to set up this engine like the old one.
Will be a Dime sized label on the Injectors, may want to see if similar number to the other engine, could be a lower HP fuel rate.
How about posting a couple pictures of the two governors showing the levers on them. I'm guessing the loader engine has a variable speed governor and the pump engine has the limiting speed governor.
The governors may be stamped--DWLS or DWVS or similar. Look under the dirt on the side near the top. May be hard to see, also, may or may not be stamped or tagged. I wasn't trying to mislead you in the earlier post awhile back but whenever a governor is disturbed, the governor settings/adjustments HAVE to be checked and you might as well check the valve lash and injector timing while you're at it because those adjustments have to be done before the racks/control tube is set. Then last, the governor settings are performed
This is what I was looking for, thank you.
I’m not at the green engine right now, I’m at the red engine. These pictures were taken for other purposes.
There's your governor tag. I can't make out what it says though
On the green one? It might be covered up on the red one, I can unbolt something and see. I’ll be up there soon and can clean it up and get a closer picture.
Ya, the green one. I would think the red one should have one too but maybe not
I have a guy with Detroit Diesel 2 cycle experience agreed to go up on the day we swap engines and help, we’ll have him do the governors. He had a fleet of trucks with 6-71 engines, until California emissions laws shut him down. He’s retired now. He told me the M95 injectors listed on the data plate on the rocker cover is too much fuel for loader use, he wants to swap them, I think he said N75.
Not to argue with him but I might think a set of N-65's would be more than enough for a non-turbo engine.
It “is” a turbo engine though.
Sorry I guess I was looking at the "green" engine, had to go back a few pages to find the picture of the red engine showing the turbo!
So you’re in agreement with him if it’s a turbo?
So, what does the gov tag on the red engine say?
I haven’t got there yet, maybe today I’ll remove the stuff attached to it.
Guess if you have a good Detroit mechanic to help you might be best to see what he says. Would not want to tick him off for you by you saying "some guy on the internet said" But one is the limiting speed governor and the other is a variable speed governor. I did work on many engines using one or the other but never tried replacing one type governor with the other in an application. I know from memory an engine that needs to run at a set RPM needs the variable speed governor, I know it does sound a little counterintuitive! If I get bored tomorrow maybe I'll do some digging on the reasons for the two.
Variable speed means that whatever you set the lever at is going to mean one RPM that the governor will try to maintain. Limiting speed means that the lever (more or less) directly controls the fuel rack and the limits are there to keep it at idle speed or prevent it from overspeeding. I am kind of surprised that something like a loader had an LS governor, and if it was mine, I would be tempted to just run it with the VS governor if the rest of the red engine configuration is acceptable for the loader. I did not follow the discussion completely so I don't know if RPM range, horsepower setting, etc. is correct or not.
Yes, I would have assumed the other way around.
Agree, if for my own use and I was able to keep the governor off the original engine I would give the red engine a try as built. If for nothing else to see how it worked. However if doing this for a "customer" I might lean towards using the governor set-up that was original to the loader. This is just because some people can get all kinds of upset if something works even a little different than they expect!
Well, think of it this way. Limiting speed means your size 9 shoe controls the maximum speed of the engine(within the preset parameters) like in a truck or loader. A variable speed means a throttle lever controls the speed and can be set to maintain it at a constant speed required, like in a tractor, excavator, pump, etc. that may need to run at a constant speed under variable load.
Yes I understand that, just wonder how the variable speed would effect the way a loader preformed. I seem to recall some loaders having a hand throttle that could be used to set the minimum engine speed. I think that was suppose to help with production as the engine would not need the second or two to get up to speed after letting off the throttle. And yes I know that that foot peddle is a governor control and NOT an actual throttle!
It will probably work but the throttle response MAY be slower and the throttle linkage may have to be changed. DDA made so many combinations it can get confusing. The worst one i encountered had a variable low speed/limiting high speed governor with a booster spring on a fabricated bracket on the top cover. It powered an auger truck for a power company, hence the need for a variable low speed function while running the auger. It was a complicated governor to get set right
The thing about a straight LS governor was that foot position = rack position and that is not always a good thing. It is fine for driving around on the street because it is like a carburetor, more pedal = more fuel. But I remember on a fire truck if you tried to set the hand throttle to maintain say 1200 RPM because you did not want the thing low idling for hours, it was not really possible. It would either creep up to governed speed or slowly decay to idle. Now if there was drag on it such as the fire pump, not a problem any more. But VS governors were also used on truck engines, and those that had it felt much nicer to me, I am a slow and steady sort of driver. LS makes it feel more like a race car.
Switched these parts, the filler can’t be where it is on the red engine. That part of the engine isn’t accessible. They’re not exactly the same behind the parts, I left them how they are. The green engine had a breather on top of the rocker cover. There’s another place for this, but that’ll be blocked by the starter.
He couldn’t make it last Thursday after all, said he was back in the hospital with a recurring illness. We were supposed to swap the engine that day, it didn’t happen because the guy with the forklift got squeamish. I took it apart where I did because he stood right there telling me he could do it, then when the time came he called the situation a “can of ****”. There’s no perfectly level ground, but I put it where he could come uphill on a slight incline, but be level side to side. He brought a 4,000 lb 2WD forklift, he was supposed to bring his 8,000 lb 4WD forklift. So he tells me if I get the bigger one up there it’ll handle it no problem, a few hours later he says no to that as well. I need to separate myself from this guy. The others I’ve ran it by say the 8,000 lb 4WD is overkill. So I’ll talk to the next guy that offered to do it, he ran forestry equipment for a living and has a machine he says will do it. Around here running forestry equipment means “on hills”.
Maybe two more days and it’ll be ready to go back in. Broken engine mount, already welded back together. It warped though, will try and press it straight. The balance weight cover didn’t have a fan mount, front mount and pulley were different. Bell housing is also different, that’s for next time. Oil pump is different too, the loader had a double pickup, water pump had one. Used a tripod and chain hoist for lifting.
You're sure putting a lot of effort into this loader. If everything fits back together good should be a good machine for you for a long time.
I hope you swapped over the parts to have the oil system from the loader on the "new engine"!
I'm guessing the original engine is made to work on slopes which explains the 2 pick up oil pump system.
Working slopes or pushing up stockpiles where can get to 45 degrees of attack.
Or just moving around while running, where a genset or water pump usually sits nice and steady and level while running so the need for the scavenger section of the oil pump is not needed.
I recall some Cats had 2 oil pumps so there would be sufficient oil when working on slopes.
Not necessarily 2 pumps but 1 pump with another scavenge section and another suction bell in a forward sump connected with a long suction tube back to the combination pump or a similar configuration
Now I wish I got pictures of it.
He says it’s ready to go in. We have the one green part (blower drive gear) in the middle because the red one had an oil filler integrated into it. There was no room for it, plus it would be under the cab. Block heater hidden up there.
It warped, and needs to be pressed straight. It’s probably 2 plus inches out end to end.
Got the dipstick tube mounted to the bracket coming off of the oil filler housing. He didn’t like the wear in the lower pulleys, but didn’t have one like he thought he would. I taped off anything that was open after he left. Also cleaned up the mess, he left quite a mess. Emery Cloth and greasy shop towels mostly, and scraped off gaskets.
Ed, If you want to take care of the wear in the pullies fairly cheaply, find someone with a metal lathe and deepen the belt grooves. Take care to keep the original slope of the grooves. It will change the diameter of the pullies a little but it usually doesn't matter. For anyone really finicky, they might fill the wear up with brass (cast pullies) and re-machine but I have never bothered with this kind of fix. Your perseverance on this job is downright amazing. My hat is off to you! Jon.
One of the two rear axle side to side articulation pins has been backed out since I got the loader, I tried to get it back in before and couldn’t. This time we worked above it with the engine gone, it still took about 3 hours. Can’t really get to it, and kept trying different things. It really didn’t want to go in. Both pins had a mounting plate welded to one end, both were broken off. The other pin they had already welded a plate to keep the pin from coming out the other end. So I took my son’s 110/220 welder up, and a borrowed generator. Every time I struck an arc it about killed the generator, even when I went from 1/8” to 3/32” rod. It’s on, but I don’t know if it’ll hold. I guess I need to hit it with a hammer. I’m also considering renting a welder with an engine on it, and just burning through better.
This is the other end of the same pin, a plate hangs on the two locating pins.
The engine can’t bolt properly to the stand anymore, the front and rear mounts are spaced different and the flywheel housing is narrower. Before taking the hoist away yesterday I pushed it to see if it’d go over, like I always do. It did, but the hoist caught it. I couldn’t stop it by hand. I lifted it back up and bolted it down in one corner, I can’t push it over now if I wanted to.
Yes to getting a better weld on the pin retainer.
Ideally what should I be looking to rent, there are various sizes?
Probably the smallest you'd find is about 200 amp which would be plenty. You only need about 130 amps for 1/8" 7018. A little preheat on the frame would be a good idea because it's pretty thick. Weld uphill with a weave would be best but grind the existing mess out first. Sorry, can't really call it welding.
Smallest is 140 amp at Home Depot, but none in stock. Sunbelt has a 170. United wants less for 300 amp tow behind than a 189 amp that’d have to be loaded into a truck. Sunbelt prices are less. I won’t be able to preheat. I agree it’s a mess, inconsistent power. Here are a couple of my welds from when I built a gantry crane six years ago.
Even a small propane torch for a few minutes would give some preheat. I didn't think Home Depot rents engine drive welders. If you could rent something like a Miller Bobcat would be ideal.
Even a small propane torch for a few minutes would give some preheat. I didn't think Home Depot rents engine drive welders. If you could rent something like a Miller Bobcat would be ideal.
Even a small propane torch for a few minutes would give some preheat. I didn't think Home Depot rents engine drive welders. If you could rent something like a Miller Bobcat would be ideal.
Come to think of it, my son’s might have one.
The Home Depot machine is AC which isn't as nice but could work for what you need. United Rentals prices look kind of stupid. Are there any other rental places in your area?
My older son has one.
The second screenshot is Sunbelt Rentals. There are other rental places too.
This is “better”, but now there’s a more pronounced bend next to the triangle.
Rented a Big Blue 300. Nothing smaller was available. Preheated. Turned out better.
Welded in something to mount the diverter valve, still need to drill a hole. I know it’s not the greatest welds, but it’ll hold. I did this, my son did the other.
Got it back in on Friday, it was smoky that day from a fire south of us. Parts are going back on already.
I got the transmission end of the cradle bolted in, it wasn’t easy. Have to use an open end wrench to turn the bolts. Can barely get the bolts in there to begin with. The other end doesn’t line up. I tried jacking up the transmission (to relieve pressure where it sits on the frame), but it didn’t help. I’m gonna elongate the holes with a die grinder. Prying moves it out another way too, and I don’t want it in a bind anyway. As long as it’s tight it’ll be fine. It was a real pain just to get the cradle in there, we had to remove the steering manifold and unloading valve assembly. I also got a few other things on, including the alternator, and transmission filter housing (it had to come off to get the transmission end of the cradle out, it’s bolted to it too), also replaced a broken connector on one of the starter wires. Also installed all of the bolts holding engine and transmission together. The steering block below had to be separated into two pieces to get it back in there. Still need to tighten the two blocks together better. It’s a half inch Allen, and I only had the type for a 1/2” drive ratchet with me. I’ll bring my regular L shaped one next time, that’ll fit in the tight space.
Elongating holes is only going to lead to chronically loose bolts. Figure out why its not aligned properly.
It’s not aligned because either the break was misaligned when welded back together, or the heat tweaked it. Either way, I’m not pulling the engine to fix it. There are ways to keep bolts tight: Locktite, or drill the heads and wire them.
The bolts for the broken/repaired bracket lneed to be the last ones you put in so if there are any holes to be slightly enlarged, it won't affect the alignment of the other ones. I assume you started all the bolts on all the mounts before you tightened any. With all of the bolts loose, things may be able to be shifted slightly to allow all the bolts to be started
That was the plan, I usually do. But I had to jack up the transmission just to get one end in. Which is understandable, but it was such a fight that I didn’t think there would be any wiggle room. I can loosen them and try it before elongating. Also, I never loosened the mount on the other side (from the transmission). With the engine and transmission bolted together the relationship between mounting holes on those two can’t change, but the frame mount in the middle can.
Loosened the transmission end of the cradle and got the flywheel housing end of the cradle bolted in. It lined up a lot closer, and we were able to pry it the rest of the way.
Finally got the last of the bucket teeth bolted on.
With the long teeth you may have to be careful digging out rocks to prevent breakage, likely of the shank or bucket edge
Cleaned out the steering tank a couple days ago, the screen inside was about 50% blocked. It’s all clear now. Air compressor and steering pump are back on too.
Are these unusually long?
From what i see, they seem to be a bit long but maybe they just appear that way
I thought they were normal, but I don’t know what I’m looking at.
Mocking up how we’re gonna make the turbo fit.
We got the flex plate lined up with the flywheel and a bolt in. I forgot the rest of the bolts in the other glove box. Doh! Got the starter mounted and wired. Got the radiator cleaned, and mounted with the shroud. Lower radiator hose on, upper hose half on, still need a thermostat so we can mount the thermostat housing and the other end of the hose. Got the diverter valve solenoid rotated so we can wire it without moving the fuel tank again, then painted it and put fuel in the tank. Then attached the fuel line to the tank, since we don’t need to flip it out of the way anymore. Scratched the old exhaust manifold where I need to make a mount to bolt the turbo on. Also cut off the fuel filter bracket beyond where the throttle cable attaches, with the turbo type blower the filters can’t be where they were.
I got home in time yeserday to get the steel and tooling I need to build the turbo flange, before the places closed.
My main concern last time was getting it lined up so the flex plate bolts can go in, since I forgot to do that before stabbing the engine. The flywheel was lined up with the access hole in the bell housing, but the flex plate behind the flywheel was lined up with the only unthreaded hole between two of the eight threaded holes (happen chance). I tried reaching past the flywheel through the starter hole with a welding rod (the only thing that would fit), but it just bent when trying to move the flex plate. So we put a screwdriver through both flywheel and flex plate, and turned the crankshaft by hand as much as possible. The holes were centered on the access hole to start, so we could only move it about 3/4” to 1” the first time. Then we removed the screwdriver and turned the crankshaft by hand to the next hole, and stopped as soon as the hole got into the access hole. That way we could move it as much as possible each time. The screwdriver went through the flywheel, but not the flex plate. That’s what we wanted. If the screwdriver went through both, it meant the flex plate wasn’t staying put back there, it was being drug along with the flywheel. That would have been a bad thing, meaning we needed to separate the engine and transmission again. So now that the holes didn’t line up, the screwdriver was put through the flywheel and pushed against the flex plate. So the flex plate would move along with the crankshaft. Then the crankshaft turned again, until the screwdriver was against the access hole. Then the screwdriver removed, and crankshaft rotated to the next hole again. After doing this a few times we were convinced the flex plate hole was within the access hole, but of course we couldn’t see it. So we looked for it as soon as the flywheel hole got into the access hole, by pushing the screwdriver in. It wasn’t there. So we rotated the crankshaft just a little, and pushed the screwdriver in again. There it was, hallelujah! Then we put in a bolt, but it was pushing against the face of the flex plate. This meant the holes weren’t quite centered on each other. So we put in a bigger screwdriver that just barely fit in the holes, and that centered them. Then we were able to thread a bolt in. We left that bolt in even though it isn’t the correct bolt, so the holes couldn’t get misaligned again. My helper friend took quite a long time to catch on to what we were doing, even though I told him from the beginning that we would drag the flex plate along when rotating the flywheel, until the flex plate hole was accessible through the access hole. I explained it about four times. When we got to the part where I was convinced the flex plate hole was back there, he stopped and said “I don’t understand what we’re doing”. I made a circle with my thumb and finger and pointed close to the bottom, then said it’s not here. Then pointing a little higher each time, I said “maybe it’s here, maybe it’s here, maybe it’s here. Jab your screwdriver in and find it”. He said “Now I get it”. I had already told him to look with the screwdriver, not with his eyes. We couldn’t look at it straight on, and not close. So any sight picture we had that way was distorted.
The flange is done, my son is going to weld it on for me in the morning. I left .03” to clean up after welding.
Already tested hole placement.
We’re getting very close, last thing is to connect turbo to blower, and connector turbo intake to the filter.
No, I don’t like the exhaust where it is. That’s where the mechanic helping me put it.
Maybe some of you are better at Detroit Diesel part numbers than I am, need one of these that offsets right instead of left. It won’t clear the cab like it is. Mechanic wants me to find someone to cut it off and weld back on the other way, it’s aluminum.
Can you turn the turbo around 180 degrees so the exhaust is at the back and the intake at the front? That way you get the exhaust away from the cab and maybe use the air intake you have? Just a thought...
We looked at it that way first, I forget why it wouldn’t work.
By this I meant I want a 90 going back, that’s how he had it set up originally.
We got the part above cut and reversed, then found out the charge pipe needed to have an angle at the turbo end. He showed up today with the modified charge pipe, but it was too short. He hopes to have it right tomorrow. We got the new fuel filters installed and pushed fuel to the engine with air pressure. Also filled the steering hydraulic tank. Yesterday’s pictures. We moved the air filter from the back corner, to the hood. Routing is easier, and the mechanic says you don’t want the filter in the back corner on a Forest machine. You’ll clobber it. We had to do some cutting and drilling.
We got it started, but it had three leaks; radiator, compressor air line, and a hydraulic line I had off and on when plumbing in the valve to run the log grapple. We took all that off and are coming down in the morning, I want to get to the radiator shop before it closes. It seems to run good, and the steering and bucket still work. There was a problem with the steering before, maybe my cleaning the pickup screen inside the tank fixed it. I hope so. I’ll load video when I get home.
Well looking at those pictures it looks like he was a little late in mentioning that! Looks like it took a major hit already! I'm assuming he inspected it inside to be sure there was not going to be any unfiltered air getting to the engine?
It was that way when I got it, I’ll try to find a good one.
We both did, it’s good.
Just a question, is there a difference in the air filter element, [P/N], between a turbocharged and non-turbo'd engine? For the same air cleaner housing.
I don’t know, it didn’t occur to me that it might be.
I think air filters are based on CFM requirements of the particular engine but I'd guess most don't come with the absolute minimum requirement. I think the Baldwin catalogue has a listing of the CFM requirements of popular engines and their air filters. You could compare turbo to NA and see if there is much difference. Who gas welded the intake pipe and did you test it for leaks?
The mechanic. I don’t know if he tested for leaks.
oh my tha was a lot of work. You have done an exceptional job. I will be tearing int mine this week and will be referring to some of your posts to try and keep me on the correct path. Thanks
The radiator shop says the core is rotten, and they’re working up what a core replacement will cost. It was cooling and not leaking, and I had already spent a lot on this swap. I wanted to space out the radiator expense if possible. The mechanic made the radiator leak trying to “fix” it, doh. Now I’ll have to come up with the money to do it now. If I wait, I’ll be waiting until April-May when the snow is gone.
The radiator will be ready on Friday, and I’m ready to pay. It’s not something I want to cut corners on. I have a friend trying to talk me into adapting an aluminum radiator the same size, and he’s mentioning obvious pickup prices. He knows nothing about construction equipment. He thinks I’m being overcharged, while both the mechanic and my service manager friend thought I’d be paying more. I think what I’m doing is the right thing to do to protect the engine, and stay as durable as before.
Yes, rebuild it (radiator in this case) as close to it was new as possible. Mfr knew what they were doing. Cheap aluminum radiators are for the car that just needs to run another year before it goes to the junk yard. Of course, your loader is not likely to run 12-18 hours a day 6 days a week in a gravel pit any more, either.
A high performance/custom built aluminum rad. would cost a lot more than a recored original. Don't know how durable an aluminum rad. would be in a loader. Could get a lot dirt, dust and other crap blowing through it. My rad was recored and zinc dipped to strengthen the fins. Original Cat rad. was steel but no longer available.
I have the radiator back, it looks good. Maybe I’ll go put it on in a few days, we have storms forecast for Sunday and Monday. I wouldn’t get much done in that.
Is it forecast to rain as bad down south as it is up here? Are there any burn scars that might affect you? It will be interesting these next couple days on the Eldorado and on the Plumas with these 2 big fires.
No, you’re supposed to get 7-9 inches, we’re supposed to get 1-1/4” to 1-3/4”. That’s here in Fresno. My mountain place is supposed to get between 3” and 5-1/2”. We go through burn ares from 21 to 14 miles before our place. Yeah, could have mudslides.
Sounds nasty out there, is this common weather you experience often?
Not exactly common, average once a winter but there could be some winters where it rains gently and very little and other winters where it does this several times. Interspersed with sunny weather or light rains. Summertime from June-September it never rains at all, just hot and dry. The woods become impassible in winter, no logging or construction activity at all, too steep and muddy to accomplish anything.
Birken explained the weather good.
Yes. My mountain place is on an unplowed road, the Forest Service doesn’t travel it during winter. People in 4WDs clear the fallen trees just enough to get through, then in the spring the F.S. Improves it. The mechanic who helped me also drove logging truck in our area. He said the same as Birken above, the roads are too steep to log during winter. I’ll see the loggers hauling their equipment out the day before or day of first snow forecast.
I guess that is mountain living, certainly different where I live, we just get snow, but nothing like we did 30 years ago
The mechanic that helped with the engine is digging out a stump.
I never posted a picture of how the air inlet turned out. You can also see where the fuel filters were moved to, they were where the top of the inlet now is.
You have done a nice installation there.
One of the tilt cylinders started leaking, so I brought it down to re seal.
Thanks.
When you did the work on the 471, did you have to remove the crankshaft pully? I have to change mine from 1 engine to the other and I have no clue how to remove them, hopefully the ranks are the same other than tha with a little luck it should be ready for installation if weather holds
Yes. The mechanic did it though. I watched him, but don’t remember that well. I could call him for you, but I bet someone here will know.
Thanks for the offer, but being as there is no hurry , I would imagine we will hear from someone who knows.
OI finally found some information on. This and it seems simple. Enough, pully is on a straight non tapered hub with a woodruff key, seems itshould pull off and damper iebolted to crank with 6 " special bolts"
I must learn to proof read before I hit send,
I remember two of the half round keys.
Do you notice any difference in power with a turbo engine? There is one up here I am going to look at tomorrow
I never had a fresh non turbo to compare it to, but I’m definitely happy with the big increase in power.
It’s covered in snow right now. This is a friend’s picture from six miles away, and 600 feet higher elevation.
Yes there is a lot of snow there, we have no snow on the ground, it comes and goes
I went and looked at that engine today ( 300 miles on my truck I will not get back) but I left the engine there as it was going to Be to much of a nightmare to get everything hooked correctly.
More ordeal than mine?
More ordeal than I care to do. This loader I have has seen better days, but it is still repairable
I was working on the tilt cylinder yesterday. These are the old parts, I didn’t get a fresh picture. The seal in the middle is too wide to go in there, one side wants to stay raised. I since measured the groove width at .246”, and the seal width at .271”. That’s 25 thousandths interference. Doh! I should have checked the parts people’s work. I can check the local place I usually go to tomorrow. In the beginning they said they stock it, but were out of stock. I can see if they restocked, and take my calipers with me. I need to go there anyways to get o rings for the hose fittings.
Just trim it down
With?
What are you compressing it with? These will require Squeezing to get them into the barrel. I used Aluminum Flashing pieces and hose clamps.
The chamfer at the beginning of the bore has been enough in the past, I wasn’t planning on doing anything else.
There are actualy Stuffer tapered tools to install these and the Chamfer at the end of the barrel I have not ever had luck getting Gland Seals past.
25 thous. belt sander , grinder, file , or a sharp pocket knife either way will work . Had to trim many over the years to get to fit for oddball sizes or when we couldnt get the size we wanted
mountainguyed67 I just read through the entire thread. Man you put a ton of work into that old loader. But now I am sure you will have a machine to last a lifetime. Thanks for taking me along on the journey. I learned a ton of good information. Thanks.
Yes. I know the machine pretty good now, and I hope to get a lot done with it. We have a lot of work to do. The rear brakes is the only thing left that’s not minor. We have a lot of dead trees to clean up, and earth work to do. Do you have this type of loader? Thanks.
The snow is gone at our elevation, I hope to get up there and get some work done. Still might get more storms, there have been years we get most of our snowfall late in the season.
No I don't I have a wee little wheel loader. Maybe one day when I figure out this whole computer stuff I will start a thread on it. I just appreciate the amount of work you are putting into this and I love to learn. So I will anxiously await any updates. Thanks again.
Here are a few options.
I tried with 800 grit sandpaper, removed 1-2 thousandths. Tomorrow I’m gonna go out and buy some coarser paper, I would be there all day like this. I went and tried to get .250” wide seals. They had nothing close, and said the only options to order are .225” or .271”. When I said I didn’t want anything that could move around in there, he said he had backup rings that would take up the slack.
the backups would work fine also ,,, just trying to get it to work with what you already had
Do you happen to know what transmission you have in this loader? im having issues with an allison 2000 series in mine. Super slow in 1st and reverse but clutch pressure is good.
I got the width right to fit in the groove, now I find out the seal I.D. is too big. Or does it stretch and come back? there’s no pressure on the pick, I’m just using it to hold the seal out, because I don’t have three hands. I can work finger and thumb around squeezing the seal from opposite sides, and it bulges out.
Sometimes those rings will stretch out while putting on and take time to go back. Also have wrapped something like shim stock or even plastic soda bottle around to protect then use hose clamps to compress them back to a tight fit on pistons.
The packing also has endplay inside the gland, not enough to get another v pack in there. This doesn’t seem right, maybe the original had the correct thickness packing to fill the space without endplay? Is this a problem? Do I need to shim it? I doubt you’re supposed to put in another and squeeze it down with the retainer, I think the retainer should be metal to metal. The manual doesn’t show this cylinder, it’s one of the things they didn’t get around to updating on my serial number. So I can’t see exactly what’s supposed to be in there, I should go look at what came out of there, it was in bad shape though. The bushing has a v cut in it that the packing fits perfectly into. They gave me flat ones for each end, using a flat one on the other end puts even more endplay.
I found the old packing and measured the combined thickness, .750”. That‘s three middle type packings and one convex/flat, I put together the same combination with new ones and came up with the same measurement. I had stuck this combination in before, but didn’t use it because it more than filled up the space. But since that’s what was in there I went ahead and did it, it took little effort with the wrench to draw the retainer down all the way. I also got the wiper installed. Is a backup ring supposed to have one radiused side, and one flat side? That’s what I remember hearing, but they both look flat.
I did some research, they could be flat or contoured.
My back had been out of wack, that’s why there’s been no progress. I felt up to trying it today, it wouldn’t go together. The piston seal kept hanging up, I’m hoping this’ll compress it back to the size it’s supposed to be. I have aluminum from a beverage can between seal and hose clamp, so the seal won’t be damaged.
The cleaned up parts ready to go back together.
It’s ready to install now, it went right in. The seal had a slight indentation where the bigger part of the hose clamp was, I think it’ll fill back out though. The rod is tight in there, the way it should be. It’ll definitely seal. Not sure when I can get back up to install it.
Cylinder is back on and not leaking, I couldn’t use it though. I didn’t bring enough hydraulic fluid, the steer tank is too low. I’ll put it to use next time.
It’s good you got it up and going.
Turns out these don’t have one concave side, they’re both flat.
I’m doing the other grapple cylinder now, which way does this seal go in the gland? I don’t remember.
The groove goes toward the oil.
Thanks.
This is about ready to use. We put the one cylinder back together up there, and installed the other one. Then we put on the hoses. Still need to grease the pins, and look at clamping the hoses in place. I remember there being clamps, I’ll look at pictures.
All this time I thought the air horn had a line leak near the horn, last time I had someone step on the horn button while I was at the air horn. There’s air coming out of the horn where it’s supposed to, just greatly reduced I guess. Maybe just clean it?
Some time you can get lucky and if the back of the horn is held on with a bunch of screws you can disassemble and clean it and get it to work. Also check to see if there is a screw in that back cover, sometimes covered with a sticker, if there is one try turning it one way or another while supplying air to the horn. I have had some luck in getting one working that was not used for a long time doing that.
Sometimes a couple raps wake it up. Or use a tube and blow compressed air all the way down the trumpet. It blows out bug nests. I've never gotten one to work after taking it apart.
Not sure if they are still available but Cat used to sell kits to rebuild horns: THE FOLLOWING REPAIR KIT IS AVAILABLE: 2G-6664 Kit-Diaphragm(Air Horn) (Horn) 2 (EACH INCLUDES DIAPHRAGM, SEAL, DECAL, SCREWS,
I doubt it’s a Cat horn, it looks original. I can look for manufacturer information when I take it off.
The throttle was still sometimes sticking at full throttle, I put on the bigger of the two springs I bought last time around. Now it doesn’t stick.
We found and fixed leaks, one on a quarter inch tube attached to the transmission, the other was the hose attached to the bottom of the steering tank. I plugged where the tube fitting was with a grease zerk, then brought ferrule and fixed it the next time up. The steering tank hose was just a little loose, tightening it stopped the leak.
I tried to clear one of the pivot (articulation) pin grease zerk holes, grease won’t go through it. The one that’s clear puts grease on the bottom of the three plates that contact the pin, I’m assuming the other goes to the top. I pushed something up there until it hit metal, it wasn’t clogged. I guess the cross hole is clogged. Do I want to remove a pivot pin, or is that a nightmare? Sounds like it needs to be cleaned. I can slowly force grease in, then it comes out of the zerk after I release the grease gun hose.
Do you think grease applied more often until it clears ( I am thinking 15 min then increase grease timing as it frees up? Also use good grease zerks that will hold pressure.
Try greasing it with the machine turned in different positions with the machine turned off or with a safety bar or something so you can't get squished. Maybe some oil in the grease gun would help but if some grease is going in it should work in to grease the pin.
Also put a hyd jack under it to take the pressure off the joint and try greasing it. Then you may also determine how tight the pins and bushings are
Might try hooking up a porta power to it , wear glasses and get around a corner I have seen um put on a brief spray shower
I’m considering this option.
Sometimes too much pressure on grease fitting threads can pull the threads out. Been there, done that
We don’t get much action video because we’re working, I know thats disappointing. Here’s one we got. It broke off at ground level when pulled from higher, so I dug down and got a choker around it.
Turbo cooling line was leaking, had to remove air cleaner and hood to get to it. Most turbo clamps and bolts were loose, I tightened it all.
I got the air horn cleaned out and working, it’s loud ** and sounds good. I’m gonna put screen over the openings to keep mud wasps out.
Rear brakes won’t bleed, fluid is barely spitting out of the master cylinder. I plan on bringing it home to be rebuilt at the end of this trip. Finally decided to see why the front brakes quit working a few years ago. Lifted the wheels off the ground and they wouldn’t spin, two of us could barely move them. Started checking the adjustment, and it felt like it was too tight already. Backed them off and then they freewheeled. Doh! My now deceased friend adjusted them, and I remember doing what the book said to do. So I try bleeding, and fluid shoots out good, no air. Now I’m thinking the shoes and pads are glazed over and they won’t grab. That means pulling the front wheels off again.
Our current burn pile is so big that we need to stop adding to it, so I started making bare dirt for a new pile.
Do you ever get used to the screamin' Jimmy? Glad I found a grader with a Cummins. Don't need ear muffs as it's amazingly quiet.
It’s getting the job done, I’m okay with it.
That's the most important part.
Ear Plugs, along with Headphones and the Scream turns to a Buzzing, still end up deaf over a few years or tinnitus as bad as mine where ringing blocks out Over alarm, dryer alarm, clock alarm.
I don’t run it every day for a living. Big difference.
Well it’s good when they are making noise, when the noise stops, not good
The tilt cylinder I resealed in the spring was leaking bad again. My son and I went up yesterday and got it. I already got it back together with a new gland and different type seal. It had v packing, I put in a u pack (I think that’s what he called it). I eliminated the end play by putting a convex/flat v pack against the v machined into the end of the bushing. it worked perfect. Hopefully that does the trick. I’m tired of dealing with it.
I dropped it off to be rebuilt on Wednesday, they said three weeks.
Got it back yesterday, ahead of schedule.
My son and I went up today and put the tilt cylinder on, no leaks. Once we tightened the fitting on the back of the gland, forgot to do that before.
Then we unpinned the bucket and went to the grapple. We don’t have pins compatible with the grapple, so we thought we’d just cycle the clamp cylinders. Then refill the tank. The diverter valve didn’t work though, I checked the wires on the valve itself and they looked undisturbed. I pulled the seat to check the controller’s connection to power, in doing that I disconnected the hot wire and it grounded out. Oops! Then when I went to move the loader back to the bucket, there was no drive. Nothing. Is there an electric component to it that might have been damaged when the wire grounded? I don’t know what else could have happened, coincidence doesn’t seem likely. It was working fine.
This is after it rolled forward, its too far forward here to pin it. You still can get an idea of how it’ll look.
I wouldn't think an older loader like that would have electrics on the trans. but maybe it has forward/reverse solenoids or something. Is there a fuse panel you could check?
I’m not aware of any fuses, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any. I’ll check the troubleshooting in the service manual tomorrow.
What material do I need for pins to hold the grapple on the loader? They’re 1.75” diameter. Two need to be 7” long, and two at 9” long. They’ll need a tab with a hole welded on one end, and grease channel/zerk holes.
A buddy is offering me these used pins, he has the same quantity I need. They’re 45mm, I need 1.750”. So these are 20 thousandths bigger .020”. He said use a metric hammer to install them into the standard bushings, lol. I can probably open the bushings up some. They’re 1 inch longer than the longer ones, and three inches longer than the shorter ones. Doesn’t sound like a problem.
Or even a larger metric hammer for sure would do it
We went up today, checked if fluid was enough to start it. There’s a petcock that’s supposed to have fluid at least that high before starting, it did. I started it and checked transmission pressure gauge, it was in the green. I then drove it forward and reverse, doh! Maybe the gallon we added did the trick, but it took time.
We tried to magnetize the solenoid by pulling the trigger, nothing. Then we put the wire that’s supposed to bring power to the solenoid directly to the battery 24v, nothing. Then we also put the ground wire to the battery, it magnetized a little. My son said when he really squeezed the alligator clip lead to the ground wire, it magnetized stronger. We put the solenoid back together and tried it with the grapple hoses connected, it still moved the tilt cylinders. I used the really tiny gauge wires that came with the controller, now I’m thinking it needs thicker gauge to make the magnet work.
Was the diverter valve already on the loader when you got it or did you add it on? I don’t remember if you said
I added it, it’s in this thread.
Ok, what voltage is the coil on the solenoid rated for? What gauge are the wires to the solenoid?
I don’t know either of those.
Post some close-up pictures of the diverter valve and the ports.
I don’t have pics like that.
Did the valve come with any plumbing instructions or schematic? What is that square looking silver thing plumbed in to the right side of the valve?
Solenoid.
This is all I have.
The coil on the end of the valve should actuate the internal spool in the valve. Be aware that some newer controllers have small wires and the microswitches may not be able to conduct much amperage therefore the controller may have to be wired to a relay which would then activate the coil on the valve. Somebody correct me if i’m wrong but most of the reliable systems i’ve seen have been wired through a relay.
They only time I put relays in is for big work light circuits.
I suppose it all depends on the current draw of the solenoid.
The NH combines i used to work on had relays in the circuits for the electro-hydraulic stack valves so they must have drawn a fair amount of juice, even the low use circuits. Plus, its easier to change a relay than take apart some of those controllers to replace a switch
A number of Cat electrical schematics I've been looking at recently had instances of solenoids being actuated via relays.
Thanks, I hadn’t considered that.
Do you mean the one mounted separately, and has a line coming in each side (left & right) and a plug on top? That’s part of the original plumbing.
The pin length will reach through, the bushings aren’t worn enough to get the pins through. One or the other will have to be machined, I’m thinking of opening up the bushings.
ya, that one. It doesn’t look original. Maybe a circuit relief valve?
It’s original, item number 51.
We put on the power cluster (brake air & master cylinder bolted together) and bled the brakes, they bled fine. Then one started leaking out of the drum while adjusting. Doh! Not sure what happened.
I didn’t think that valve was original because it looked new with no paint on it. Apparently it was replaced. I was curious as to what it was.
I can go to the page referenced and see what it’s called.
I suspect it may be a relief valve for that particular circuit. If the boom and bucket functions are ok then its likely not causing any problem
Your machine was originally 24V. Is it still 24V? A 24V solenoid on a 12V system would act how you describe. Otherwise you may have a corroded connection acting as a resister. Check the voltage at the solenoid with the solenoid energized. Check wire to wire across the solenoid, not hot to ground on the frame.
Yes.
The town nearest our loader, we may not be able to get to the loader for a few months. We’ll have to see what the weather does. The road our loader is on isn’t plowed, and we have a steep driveway to get off of our place and back to the road. That steep driveway is in a turn on a hillside, so I can’t even run at it. I’d probably end up off the driveway if I ran at it.
We got the same here up north at the shop, and a couple high elevation jobs we had going are now on hold until it melts some.
I got 24v relays, but too late because of the snow.
Got a good deal on a 12’ snowplow, and plan on adapting it to the loader. It’s reversible, so the snow will go either left or right. Or you can make it perpendicular to the road, that’ll be necessary for abrupt uphill or downhill changes.
It has this type mount. I’m thinking of building an adapter with the sockets with pins on one side, and holes for the loader arms on the other side. It looks like it’ll pivot up and down on the pins in the sockets (not sure what they’re called).
I’m also considering some type of bucket mount. I would prefer the mount have more contact with the bucket.
I know I’ll need tire chains. Already got one set, looking for another.
From my experience, the road to hell is paved with ‘good deals’ .
How is the snow up at your place now? Around here in the high country it is 4-6 feet deep and frozen into a rock for months now. Spent some time up there this week and single digits at night.
Gone, until you get just past our place driving uphill. The snow line is just above our place sometimes, the neighbors can’t even get to their place for 4 plus months. A neighbor adjacent to our place spent a week at his cabin ending a week ago, him and his daughter had to walk in from the road. Right now I can drive right onto our place no trouble, in a couple days we’re supposed to have a big storm down to 1,000 feet though. I would be able to get there right after that while the snow is still soft.
My friend that runs a Forest Service groomer says the north end of the Dusy Ershim trail has 10 feet of snowpack.
Diverter valve is finally working. I used a self drilling screw to ground the relay to the body under the seat (same screw that mounts the relay), ran a bigger wire to the diverter valve, black wire on the relay got power from the heater switch wire. When my nephew pulled the trigger I put a 1/2” box wrench into the magnet, and it pulled it in. He said the trigger made a sound too, like telling him it’s working. Plus the light on the diverter valve connector came on. My only reservation was the diverter and relay being grounded to opposite halves of the machine. Not sure if it has a ground strap between the two. So the loader’s ready, and the grapple is almost ready to pin on. All I need to do to the top pins is drill a hole in each. Bottom pins I don’t need to drill, I’m gonna make collar extensions. I also need to plug one of the two grease holes in the bottom pins.
A flexible ground cable would be easy to install between the front and rear frames and probably a good idea
I‘m thinking the same. First I’ll see if it already has one.
Also had to replace a hydraulic hose in the middle of last trip, that meant a drive down to the hot valley.
Getting close to having the log grapple working. Got a second hole in the top pins. It work hardened before getting through the second hole, had to finish it with a carbide burr. The new hole will put the grease hole where it needs to be.
Another hydraulic leak yesterday, a flange hose connection on the bucket pump. I didn’t have that size o-ring, but already went half way down to Fresno and got some. Now to fix it.
I also drilled through the bushings for the above pins. The collars had holes, but not the bushings. I could only drill from one side because of placement of collars, and the second side walked. Now I’m going to drill a little bigger diameter to make the bolt go through easy, I don’t want to drive it in with a hammer.
It never fails. Just when you think you have everything fixed and all the leaks stopped another one pops up.
Yep fix too many leaks and it will cause pressure to build up in the system which will then find the weakest point to release that pressure!
I'm thinking of looking at one of these vintage loaders so this is an outstanding thread. Is there anything that you would consider a "do not buy at any price" issue I need to look for when inspecting? I'm not sure what year or model but it looks very similar to yours except the windshields are slightly more Art Deco looking with a sort of raised eyebrow look to them
Allis, Fiat Allis. Parts stream is essentially Dry. Unlike many to use off the shelf generic pieces, AC/FA engineered to specific designs no longer made.
Anything involved in a fire. There are too many things that could be deal breakers to remember them all. You have to look at machines on an individual basis.
The loader looks a lot like this one, having the same curvy windshield: Terex loader 72-51 Terex 72-51 loader Hour meter shows 325 Detroit 471 Motor (right rear tire looses air) www.mc-bid.com
Couldn’t pin the grapple because the loader arm bushings are too small, but was able to actuate the cylinders. I’ve got new bushings coming, and will open them up. That’s the last thing.
Windshield shape looks like the only difference.
This leak came back twice now, each time after using the bucket to pop a rock out of the ground with breakout force. A friend thinks I need to dial back the regulator on the control valve.
Brought down the second tilt cylinder, the other was already done. It‘s obvious why it was leaking. It’s leaking on the inside of the seals, the other cylinder was leaking on the outside of the seals. The metal surface was too pitted and I had to replace it, this one looks the same.
Installing the seal stretched it out like last time, so I’ve got it compressed in to hold it there. Doing this overnight worked on the other cylinder, then it went together. The only thing I’m waiting on now is the bushing that goes inside the gland, I’m having a v machined into one end. Both old ones were already that way, the only available new one isn’t. The reason it’s needed is to get the right thickness to keep the bushing and seals from moving inside the gland, that would cause them to wear too fast. Once it’s back together I’ll go up and put the cylinder back on the loader, weather permitting.
I installed this cylinder a month and a half ago, it doesn’t leak. One lift cylinder developed a leak though, I was hoping I’d never have to mess with those heavy things.
I’m having trouble figuring out my parts book. Why is there no figure/drawing to show what the part numbers are? It only has a number pointing at a group of parts, it’s like it’s meant to be used with another book. To the right of the part descriptions there’s “Types” with numbers under it, what does that mean? The front of the book doesn’t have an explanation. I can confirm that 5.5001 is part number 5167709 by the bottom picture.
Its the old GM parts system. They use group numbers in the illustrations and then you go to the sequential group numbers in the text and from there read and figure out what you’re after based on their description and terminology. You really have to use your imagination. Different manufacturers may have used different names for the same type of part ie. GM, Ford and Dodge to name a few
That’s what I hoped they weren't doing. So what do the numbers under “Types” mean?
I would like to have a tachometer, the air compressor and hydraulic pump take up the other two possible locations. I found one that would go opposite the blower drive. What would I need to drive it? I found one, but don’t know which type it’s for. 5155861. The screenshots won’t load here, file too large.
The type numbers likely indicate updated design changes. ie. type 1 first design, type 2 second design and so on
Not real sure what you're looking for but if this engine is the original engine is there a tag on the valve cover? I think the type numbers should be there. If there is the tag on the valve cover maybe post the information there and I may have a parts book that will be of some help. Forget is this a Inline 71 or V71? I'm thinking it might be a 4-71 inline?
Okay.
I want to understand the book.
Yes.
I think one of the "problems" is those old Detroit's were adapted to just about every and any application that required something needing turning short of an airplane! And I would not be surprised to hear someone gave that a try! There are many ways they can be configured and each configuration needs some different parts from the next one. This is why having the original tag off the valve cover is so important, it will give the "Type" numbers that are most critical for that particular build application. Unfortunately I did not think to grab the inline 71 parts books when I retired from the quarry back in 2015.
One of the first parts to disappear on these was the VC tags
I have both of mine.
K he swapped another engine in that loader and i dont remember for sure but it might now be turboed also , "short of an airplane" just as long as ya put um on the wings aint nothin worse than oil on the windshield.
We’ve spent some time up there, but haven’t ran the loader a whole lot. It developed a bad leak on one of the lift cylinders, I’m letting it sit now. Here’s what Terex says to do about it. I cut a log to hold the arms up, and plan to have the bucket off like in the image. My son is repairing the tripod, I plan to assemble it around the log when vertical, to hold the log up. I also improved the spot I work on the loader, it’s actually level now, and wider. I ordered parts to block off the cylinder and lines while I work on it, it’s a different type than the other cylinders on the machine. The area also had an evacuation order for almost two weeks, due to the Basin fire. It got within 6-7 miles.
You dont have a big rock or a tall bank you could set bucket and all on? Had to completely rewire a Grove RT years ago because another crew came in and took the boom cylinders off with some carpentry built cribbing under the boom, after some rain came it all came down and crushed the christmas tree. Burnt wires all over. That way you could leave the bucket on it , just block the wheels real good cause I dont know how good the parking brake holds on the old girl. "excuse me IT" old it .
Nothing that tall, or anywhere near.
No more leak.
Looks like a pretty big cylinder. What bore is it?
Starter quit, I had it rebuilt.
6”
I’m using the grapple now.
I’m getting logs ready for my buddy’s sawmill.The 2 on the left are 30-31 inches across.
Great you're getting some good use out of the old girl.
We had a 72-51 . I still hear it every day all day long. I have tinnitus. LOL
I'm not sure if you figured out the year of your loader? I have a little booklet with serial numbers and it has Terex/Euclid on the last page going back to 1960. All machines used the same numbering from 1960 to 1983. Starting in Sep. 1983 the month and year of shipments were stamped on the frame below the serial number plate. From 1960-Oct. 1983 44,759 machines were built. I forgot about Terex in the little booklet and should have posted this a long time ago. A farmer close to me has a 72-51(AA I think). Several years ago he said I could buy it for $10,000. The brakes didn't work and 1 tire was really suspect because of a big gash in it. I figured I would need brakes and I didn't need another expensive headache trying to fix them. The 6-71 runs really good though. Unfortunately it also really screams out the chrome staight pipe!
Supposed to be a 1977.
I’ve been raking the forest. Seems to me that someone advised us to do that, so I’m getting it done. This isn’t a wide brush rake like they put on dozers, but it’s working.
Do you have the serial number?
64575
Had to move this rock, I think it was gonna divert runoff water onto the pad. A landscaper friend estimated it at 8-10 tons. It's the heaviest thing I've lifted with the machine, but not enough to make it tip. View attachment 924371 View attachment 924372
The Terex serial numbers are really weird. The numbers don't continue from one year to the next like other machines. Depending on the serial number it could be a late model of one year or an earlier model of the next year. Very odd. Yours looks to be a 1976 but could also be a 1977. 1976 serial numbers go from 61374- 65506 but 1977 goes from 62469-66837. Interestingly 1975 goes from 60829-64427. I'd guess yours is a 1976 but could be early or late 1976 or early 1977. It explains why parts like cyl. seals could be difficult to source if there were changes in cylinder construction. If the rest of Euclid and Terex were this confusing it's no wonder they had difficulty. Starting in Sep. 1983 the month and year were stamped in the frame below the serial number plate.
75 ended with 64554 76 ended with 65521 from 1981 14th edition serial # field guide.
in 1934 ended with 68 it has a note that prior july 68 it was euclid on plate and after was terex and or earthmoving equipment division of general motors
Does model number matter? It's a 72-41AA.
Its just s/n's for terex doesnt list model #'s
Another interesting thing.
The little book I have says Euclid/Terex serial numbers are for all machines. There aren't individual serial numbers for different machines. OP's machine is a 1976 but the numbers in the book I have are confusing. Have no idea why they aren't consecutive from year to year.
The forks got stuck in the end of the log, and wouldn’t let go. I thought the forks were under the log, I lifted it to get the choker cable around. I had to cut some off, too heavy, plus a lot of ground resistance.
Digging out a stump, I need it out of the way. When I had two sides dug, it still wouldn’t budge. After the third side, the bucket was moving it a little. I dug under the roots on the remaining side, to get a choker around down below. I think it works better than pulling from the top. I did another stump this size the same way, it broke off low when I pulled it. I’m down in the valley resting and resupplying, plus attending appointments. So I won’t get around to pulling on the stump for a few days. There’s a bonus too, this stump is fat wood. I didn’t know it until I started breaking pieces off of it.
Remember this repair? This season I found a good replacement in the parts crate that came with the loader. Oops! Too bad I didn’t think to look in there.
I got a lot of work done this year, I spent about 175 nights up there. Had to replace the o-ring on the hydraulic pump 5 times, keeps getting torn. But only with the tilt cylinders. I cleared out an additional area, and leveled. Finished the turn around loop at the top of the water tank road, and cut a pad for a large water tank. I only have a 175 gallon tank now.
Then I started milling logs, my wife helped me a lot with that.
We had to evacuate for two weeks, from the Garnet Fire. It got about three miles from us.