Recently got a machine into my bay that a customer bought a an auction. Customer wants to put it back to the way it was. Hook up disconnected hoses make it run better. Well the complete def system was removed. Tank, controller wiring everything. What's odd is it doesnt throw any codes for these things being disconnected. Apears to have a non oem dataset in the ecu or maybe from another country of origan. Machine had a fire melted alot of the plastic engine parts on top which were replaced before it went to the aucrion. Customer saw price and now is back peddling and wants it to just make it run better what can you do. What's the legal take on doing anything to this machine other then fixing it 100%? Should I touch anything even non emmisions related? Now that I know its emmisions have most likely been tuned out by a reflash what would you do? Looks like we will end up refusing to work on any system unless the emissions are fixed. I know I can legally be held personally responsible by the epa if I modify bypass ect any emmisions but whats my responsibility when that machine roles into the shop?
Watching this with interest. What machine is it?
Dealer/OEM shops around here will not can not allow any piece of equipment/vehicle in there shop that has any deleted emissions. At one dealer it is posted at the service desk {If any truck/vehicle is found to have emissions deleted said vehicle will be towed from their shop at owners expense}. A Kenworth dealer near by has a truck in their yard with a X15 that was tampered with for two plus months now-I think the authorities are involved too,
I can't speak to the legal issues, but you will probably lose your shirt over the technical issues. The software to operate with deleted emissions was probably written by a kid in his mom's basement. The only way the people who wrote it can stay out of jail is to fade away quickly before the EPA discovers them. So they are never going to be any help. Warren "Western Truck and Tractor Repair" on Youtube did a series on a truck with stealthy deleted emissions a customer of his bought unsuspecting. It looked like it was about to turn into a lawsuit last I saw. And he has technical capabilities and laptop software way more than most of us could even hope for. My position would be, I have plenty of less complicated work to spend time on.
I wouldn't touch it unless it was all or nothing. The owners reprieve is that he bought it at auction, he either cuts bait and scraps or fixes "all in"
I wouldn't touch it myself. You'll be married to it until you die.
Don't let the customer's mistake become one yours.
You said a mouthful!
I will have to search for that EPA article that explained it what I remember is if you work on emissions system that is modified you could be in a world of hurt unless your putting it all back to factory That may not stop you from changing a tire but most informed shops are not going to perform any under hood service Both the shop and the technician can be held responsible.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.pca.state.mn.us/air/vehicle-tampering-mechanics-and-dealerships
Good read, clearly states, shall not remove, defeat or make inoperable or remove / defeat warning devices mandated. This kinda goes along with what we've all said, all or nothing, no in between.
My experience is off-road if that makes a difference but the dealer here can work on any deleted machine no prob if they so choose. No rules against working on any part of the machine just because the engine has been tampered with. But they will not obviously work on anything related to the delete but yes they can do other work on the engine. And it must be documented in the service report. No warranty if the delete can be tied to the failure. But things like injectors can be changed no prob and new trim file put in, in most cases. The software is non-OEM but most all other tests and functions work the same. If done professionally most times the average person would not know the difference other than no DEF is needed and the soot load never builds….. The OPs example of everything removed is a bit extreme with who did that delete.
Yeah we won't work on anything deleted, don't need any noise from the alphabet squad trying to justify sucking down my taxes.
I have know of complete deletes including DPF removal, engine retuned. The engines ran away cooler and used a lot less fuel and became reliable. Everything thing was purchased as a kit so I suppose before selling the can reinstate back to original.
That's Canada-different set if rules.
Seem like the rules on paper on similar. Don’t support, repair or anything related to the delete but if any other systems need work why not ? Diff repair, trans, etc ? Just don’t touch the exhaust. Again from professional to back yard hack deletes range in what is involved and has been tampered with. But yes, to walk away is best if in question. No one needs that hassle
I'm an old person so I confine my work on old stuff. I leave the newer engine stuff to the kids with the computers.
I'm an old person so I confine my self to looking for senior citizen discounts and toilet paper.
I have found that old people who kept up with the times and learned how to work on current stuff with computers and laptops are by far the very best because they understand mechanical, electrical, and electronic in the whole package. The trouble is there are only about 3 of them in existence. Maybe more, probably most of them post on here.
That's one area I don't help with on here-reason is it's very hard to get straight answers to questions. I just keep it to myself.
The electronics and computer stuff was my weak points. Mostly because 98% of the equipment I had exposure to was more vintage stuff. Then when they started getting a few Cats with computers upper management felt for the longest time having one laptop with Cat ET on it to be shared between several locations up to a two hour drive or more round trip was a good plan. After a couple years I did end up having one for my own use 75% of the time. Last I heard a couple years back the guy who got stuck with my job had been trying for over a year to get them to renew the ET subscription after it ran out! This is not a small mom and pop's operation but one of the top three aggregate companies in the world!
There are engine/mechanical related issues that are commonly confused with a electrical/electronic issue. Sometimes it really only takes a good experienced set of ears and common sense to trouble shoot. More often than not people think it's a sensor which becomes the go to word or thought why the check engine light is on. Freightliner comes from the factory with a check engine light On as standard equipment. Plus some of their best can't find a problem. Disconnect the battery ground for ten minuets clear all 5 ECM's and poof light stay's out for three months till it lights up with a real code or issue. So no matter how good someone thinks they are at computer/ecm trouble shooting-the gremlins multiply overnight.
If the manufacturer can't or won't figure it out - how is the end user's shop supposed to do any better. Do any users of trucks write in down time penalty clauses? Liquidated damages? We used to do that with fire trucks sometimes. But that was before DPF was invented.
Agreed. Some of the wiring issues are caused on the assembly line. The black corrugated wire loom can and does over a period of time rub small areas of the insulation. Because the factory won't take the time to tape the wires together before installing in loom. The wires just lay inside loose vibrating . Zip ties are another problem-so tight over a period of time with no extra slack the ties cut through. Great Dane use to build quality trailers. We have eight 2019's. The harnesses were installed in such a way you can't pull a marker out to unplug it- absolutely no slack. Harnesses were installed and slack pulled up then Gorilla taped or a loom clamp was used as a tourniquet on the wires to twist them up tight then clamp riveted-All of this crap was done on purpose on the assembly line. It's cost me hours and hours of labor to straighten out. You ask how come Great Dane didn't fix it-what have it lay in their yard for two weeks before they get around to it.
I wonder if in the OP's post the buyer of the machine has any recourse with the auction company? If it's a serious offence for a shop to work on a deleted machine, it seems like there should be similar rules for the auction houses selling deleted machines. I recall a thread on another forum where RB refunded money and took back a welder that had major internal problems that weren't disclosed. The other side of the coin is maybe??? because the buyer wants to put all the deleted stuff back on there are exceptions to the rules.
So the customer didnt like the price it would cost to fix the machine. Picked it up and left. At the aucrion He paid 2/3 of the cost of a new machine for this auction jem. We talked about the liability of the auction house they take pictures of everything and check the machine thoroughly this machine should have been sold as parts but given the price it got at auction seems like someone pulled a fast one. I cant imagine you can legally sell it without disclosing emmisions are removed. To return to original The parts bill was close to 25k that's if the ecu could be reprogrammed back to factory and def injector still functioned. Everything else was removed except def injector which is odd why not leave everything.missing parts were Def tank, def pump, sensors controllers hoses muffler was cut open gutted and patched back up. Someone else's problem now
Buyer's responsibility probably trumps the seller's responsibility but until it hits the courts who knows? There are lots of things that you can legally sell or own but not use. Part of the auction contract that allows you to bid says "AS IS, Where Is." My guess is that this quality individual owner will haul the machine down the road until he finds someone less educated or less professional who will try to make it run.
Oh it runs great. Customer brought it to us to fix emissions. In Massachusetts if you buy a car even as is and it doesnt pass emissions you can legally go back and make seller pay to fix it. Well it was that way 10 years ago anyway. In new York if you sell a car and you know there is something wrong with it and dont disclose it the buyer has a legal Avenue to dispute the sale. I would imagine even as is this machine was illegally sold but noone will pay lawyers to dispute it although if i bought this and found emissions gone I'd get my money back. Someday I'd like to provide a service for equipment buyers to hire me to inspect machines before they purchase them. I have the website built and ready for retirement in 10 years.
Out here in the west what applies to cars or items licensed for the highway doesn't apply to industrial machines never meant to touch a piece of pavement but for to removed or reapply it. The auctions are also treated differently than retail sellers. Ritchie only got hit here on the emissions stuff when they imported a bunch of stuff from Asia back in the nineties to sell down the west coast. Now days no one even thinks to check on Tier status of anything sold at auction. But a court case would go a long way in deciding what is right and what is wrong.
Right now the government seem to be focused on high profile stuff like deleted diesel pickups and mostly on the sellers of the delete kits and some shops that install them. Being in a non emission state my personal truck would probably have that stuff “get stolen by a methhead” in the middle of the night. professionally I can’t truly touch that stuff but so far we’ve only seen a couple of machines without it and the last one had the equipment just flash files that caused the ECM to ignore it. We flashed it back to factory config which probably pissed the customer off but we were in a rock and a hard place.
I work for a dealer. And time to time I come across a deleted machine. I have not been instructed not to do any work when I find a deleted machine. I just do my best to fix the issues without delving into their delete device. If I find that their delete device is causing the problem then I stop right there. We can only support oem equipment. Just today I was working on a machine with a speed sensor issue. I checked the wiring from sensor to ecm and ohmed out the sensor and couldn’t find anything wrong. Even my laptop was detecting the sensor. So as a last ditch effort I reflashed the engine ecm. Well I didn’t know that the customer deleted the emissions. Now his machine is in full derate because there isn’t any communication with the emission sensors because it’s all deleted. Do I feel bad for the customer? Absolutely not! That’s the risk you run when you play that game. I told the customer what I did and told him that whoever did your delete will have to undo what I did. I did find the problem. There is another speed sensor that is not monitored through my laptop nor is it mentioned in the service manual where you can find it easily. I will fix that when they get the software reinstalled.
Sounds like the perfect machine to ship to Central America. The buyer could sell it for top dollar not having all the DEF BS on it.