We had our mechanic out fixing a hydraulic hose the other day and he mentioned that some machines are starting to be outfitted with hydraulic systems that accept standard engine oil. Sounded like nonsense at the time, and it still does now. Is there anything to this?
Many machines including Caterpillar used engine oil in their hydraulic systems and also their transmissions.The D6 D was one example,there were many others. The objective was to reduce the inventory of oils required to maintain your equipment.There may be a trend to do that again but it is not new by any means.Ron G
Engine oil is a whole lot more expensive than hydraulic fluid. Around here in many cases hydraulic oil has to be biodegradable and have no heavy metals. That is something that engine oil will probably never be.
I was going to say same thing John C did, engine oil is sho nuff more expensive, and repeat what others have said as well, nothing new. Many old Komatsu machines spec'd engine oil in hyd system.
Back when I was running a Bantam C-366 with a leaky drive motor I was using three pails a day in it @ $25.00 a 5 gallon pail. Dust control was a plus with that old girl.I took some pics of it the other day through the fence in the compound where she sits,the owner has gone out of business.I hate to see that go for scrap,it had a recently rebuilt 6V53 in it but cannot imagine anyone wanting to buy it unless it could be used for loading out of a stockpile or something because we had to break it down to move it.I have no idea what bulk engine oil would cost today.Ron G
My now old Komatsu specd Engine oil in the hydraulics. Besides reducing inventory like RonG said there is also the matter of people putting the wrong oil in the wrong places. I think this happens much more often than you would believe. I have to watch people constantly. For example: what we thought was an excellent car shop (not a quicky lube place) put 90 weight in my mothers 4WD transfer case (suppose to be Dexron ATF), truck shops are forever putting gear lube in Roadrangers, back when it was under warranty the Komatsu service manager left me urgent messages that the oil samples from our 150 came back with a warning: in the previous service someone put the wrong oil in the engine. He wasn't too thrilled when I reminded him they had done the previous service.
RonG, just bought 2-2.5 gallon jugs of Mobil 1300 15w-40. $ 57.50 + tax, Also Mobil 424 hydraulic fluid in 55 gallon drum is $536.25. off-road diesel fuel is cheap though, only 3.90 per gallon.lol. ouch!! All oil products are costing an arm and leg now adays. doesnt leave any appendages to run equipment.
The time frame of that particular event was in the mid ninties.No doubt the prices have gone up a lot since then.This oil was the bargain brand from Acme Auto parts which was right around the corner.They delivered.Ron G
Kind of depends on the Generation of Hydraulic System. A Variable Displacement Piston pump would barely last the week out on Multi Grade Engine Oil.
The company that I work for (Mining Technologies International) uses 15w40 motor oil in the hydraulic systems of most of our mobile mining equipment with exception of our line of hydraulic jumbo drills. We use a load sensing hydraulic system (for fuel savings) via variable displacement piston pumps without any issues. I have contacted one of our engineers and will get an official answer as to why they spec motor oil vs hydraulic oil. I have spent several years working on mining equipment and I honestly dont believe it would make any difference whether you use motor oil or hydraulic oil. Oil filtration and cooling is the key to longevity of hydraulic components. The engineer called back. Basically, it is a matter of preference. Either type of oil is fine for hydraulic system use. However, something worth noting for surface equipment: 15w40 motor oil has a "pouring point" of -30* C, whereas the Esso Nuto 32 hydraulic oil that we use has a "pouring point" of -36* C. Ambient temperature is generally not an issue for underground operations but may be a consideration if you are running your equipment in cold startup conditions up here in the northern zone. I would use whatever is more economical.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I don't think we'll plan on using engine oil in our hydraulic system anytime soon, if ever. As a few of you pointed out, there's not much money to be saved anyway. I was just wondering. Man, Atco responded to one of my posts. I feel honored!!!!
Komatsu 150, you are exactly right about about people putting the wrong oil in the wrong places. I got a report of one of our new loaders suddenly started smoking . Cummins came up and checked it out, replaced injectors. It was slowly clearing up. We later found out that a newbie had topped off the fuel tank with hydraulic oil. The sad part was there is a steel "FUEL" sign in 4" letters welded on to the fuel tank next to the filler.
About ten years, or more ago, Deere started to recommend changing out the hydraulic oil in 690E's with 15-40 or 10-30 engine oil. One of the stated reasons was because water seperates better from engine oil than hydraulic oil, most of us have seen this in action, hydraulic oil gets milky with oil in it while most engine oils do not. The 690E's used Linde hydraulic pumps and this was supposed to help with longevity. Most variable displacement axial piston pumps and motors have valve plates that etch when coming into contact with water.
Couldn't be further from the truth. Check into newer Deere Backhoes,Loaders,Bunchers,Skidders.....heck,the only deere machines that still use hydraulic oil,that i can think of,are the excavators.
If you sincerly believe that is the case why do we have Engine Oil,Hydraulic Oil and Gear Oil.......and not just Oil? Hydraulic Oils have Friction Modifiers for very small clearances inside Pumps and Add Packs with Elements to keep the Oil Film Stable at Temperature. Engine Oil has High Detergents to prevent Sludge Build Up, Dispersants to suspend Soot in the Oil and Add Pack's of elements that woud be Foreign/Unnecessary in a Hydraulic Circuit. Your Argument is not Scientific. You have meerly found an example of a Manufacturer who has engineered their Product to be Durable/Versatile for the benefit/ease of their Customers/Operators. I dont expect you to put much much value on my opinion but in my work environment we stopped using single Oil in multiple Compartments 20 Years ago. If you put Hydraulic Oil in the Hydralic Compartment (Wet Brakes) on a Large Mining Machine (Read CAT 793) it is un-drivable. They will Shudder/De-Laminate. Oil types have a very specific purpose and just because you have gotten away with it and it works does not make it right. What if running the correct oil allowed the Component to live 40% longer and cost 30% less to Overhaul???
Yair...As well as I remember Cat. specified thirty weight series three in all compartments of a D9g...even in the finals.
CAT793, you bring up some good points about oil designed for specific applications... very valid. I think in this particular case engine probably possesses all the requierements that hydraulic oils do, but not the reverse. I dont think I would put hydraulic oil in my engine. I do know that MTI has used engine oil in their hydraulics for a long time and has seen no ill side effects from it. We have seen no issues with wet disc brakes (Dana axles), but that is an interesting point. I guess the bottom line is, use what the OEM specifies and you should be good. Are you involved in surface or underground mining? What do you do?
The specification for our 1991 Liebherr L541 wheel loader is 15w/40 engine oil in the hydraulics, which also feeds the hydrostatic drive variable displacement piston pump and hydraulic motor on the transmission. A quick look at both Mobil and Valvoline recommendations for all Liebherr equipment today, is engine oil in the hydraulics from their wheel loaders right through to their R996 excavator which has a capacity of up to 6,000 litres. RnR.
Using what the OEM recommends is the proper thing to do. The point here is a great many companies specify engine oil in hydraulics. Designed for it and work perfectly fine. Just to make it interesting I've also seen quite a few instances where a component made by one supplier will be used in various brands of equipment and the equipment manufacturers will specify different oils. They have their reasons so we do what they say. A perfect example is steering systems in trucks. Hydraulic oil, power steering fluid, Dexron ATF, all in the exact same steering box and pump.
My Volvo Loader takes motor oil in the hydraulic tank, and transmission. Specified in the manual.
To add to the confusion the local Cat dealer said they were using 15-40w as fill in their shop . We still have hyd oil in our machines, I don't know what's right??
My 1978 and 1979 Bob Cat 975's have been using Dello 15/40 for the last 30 years. The Sun-strand pumps seem to be getting a little week now a days. Could it be I have been using the wrong oil for the last 30 years and the effects are just starting to show? In my dump truck I change the hydraulic system to ATF for the winter because the hydraulic oil thickens enough that the box will not come down if it is bellow 0 degrees F out.
Well...we were talking about hydraulics,but you brought wet multidisk brakes into the mix,which are hydro actuated,but do not run In the hydraulic oil. Deere brakes run in J20 spec oil. Cat uses TDTO in the application you are talking about (as far as I remember)..... ....and it's not that I "have gotten away with it".....many OEM's these dayys are spec'ing 10w30 or 15w40 as the oil used in their hydraulic systems,not me. As for longevity, I have a customer with 2 Deere 844J's, 10w30 in the hydraulic system, one at 14000 hrs the other at 17000 hours,both run like a top,oil samples great throughout the machine history. ...but what do I know.
the brake circuits have their own hyd oil supply for cooling in larger trucks they dont run in the diff oil like smaller machines hence are part of the hydraulic system i agree with CAT793, in certain applications you will get away with it for the service life of the machine which is why the OEMs are reccommending it we used to run alot of Hitachi excavators where i was working in the past which specifies a 46 hyd oil, if you ran 15W-40 it would be fine for around 5000hrs then would cannon the hyd pump due to lack on internal lube
Like I said,the excavators do not use "engine oil" (as we call it)....if you tried to use 15/40 up here,the pumps would last about 5 minutes. The other machines I listed as using "engine oil" were designed for it.It's not about "getting away with it",It's about cutting down on operating costs (owner stock less oils). It's also a warranty requirement.I challenge you to go and buy an 844K and swap out the oil for aw46 and let me know how that goes when the pumps detonate.
The additive package is what denotes engine oil and not the weight. I have run 15/40 engine oil in Komatsu excavators for a few years at one of the dealers I worked for. Those people only wanted one oil. At that time Komatsu specified either hydraulic or 10wt. engine oil As to the water issue, hydraulic oil will allow water to drop out of emulsion over time while engine oil will carry it. Since water is bad in either case I don't see any plus or minus in that situation. Engine oil does have anti foaming agents and really high detergent packages to suspend carbon and particulate matter from air intake systems that hydraulic oil does not have. Those additives cost a lot of money which is the big difference between the oils. So to summarize this, if you are running 10wt. hydraulic oil in your system you can sure run 10wt. engine oil with no problems. You can probably run a multi-grade engine oil also but why spend all that extra money.
I dont know how things work down there,but HN46 and AW46 are more expensive than 10w30 up here in Canuckistan.
Correct on the TDTO - incorrect on the Wet Brakes. All CAT Truck have Oil Pumped through Wet brakes in Large Volume (140 LPM) but Low Pressure (25 Psi) varies on Model/Size. On the correct Oil this workes very well. We have maintained a Brake Pack on a 793C up to 25000 Hours and CAT purchased it back off us to see what they/we did right!!! Wise Words - and I agree 100% do as the Manufacturer recommends. I am a Condition Monitor/Planner with a CAT Dealer at a Gold Mine. We have the usual 793 (at our peak there was 28 of them),D11R,854,16H,24H,994. We also now help the U/G with R2900G XTRA and AD-55B along with heaps od other varied CAT Machines. I would guess their must be 200-300 bits of CAT gear on site. Enough about me - What do you do?
CAT793, I am currently an account manager for MTI (Mining Technologies International) in eastern U.S.. I also have 9 plus years as a heavy equipment mechanic in an underground mine here in New york state. The rest of me work life has been as a mechanic, partsman, parts and service manager for Ford, GM, Jeep, and Navistar International dealerships, and as a papermill millwright.
Mark, You have a very broad background. Can you tell me a little about MTI and what they offer? Is that the mob that offer Exchange Screens and a Pad Sample magnified to show the Dedris in a Compartment?
CAT793, See www.mti.ca . We manufacture low profile underground mining heavy equipment, and a few construction items such as bucket crushers for excavators and loaders, and a line of drills for excavators. LHDs, haulage trucks, jumbos, utility vehicles, ITH drills, etc. is our primary business. Our largest LHD is a 12yd, largest truck is 35 ton, small equipment when compared to Cat. We also manufacture cylinders and drill string material for ITH, Blasthole and Raisebore applications, although we do not build blasthole or raisebore machines. Mining Technologies International is a combination of John Clark Inc (JCI), Drillex, Continuous Mining, LHD Cylinder, and a couple other companies under one roof.
I don't know the reasoning why, but I know on our JD 650J dozers (tractor/plows) we run 15w -40 oil for the engine, and the hydraulic system, the hydrostatic drive system uses some other type of oil (we are told never to open it, just check the sight glass) on our older dozers (550 & 650G) use regular hydraulic oil for the hydraulic system
First post, so please bear that in mind. My background's similar to Cat 793 - large open pit mining tools. Currently working for a mining company on an open-pit gold mine in the Caribbean, but for almost 20 years I worked for Cat dealers, and before that for other mining companies. Started back in the 70's on open-pit coal. We always joke that if you can't walk underneath it standing up it it's not worth working on ... A few thoughts about oil...... Most manufacturers will give you options about what oils you can use in a certain compartment. The idea is to be able to reduce lube inventories by stocking less different grades while still covering your bases regarding compliance with the OEM oil specification. For example in a current model D10T Tractor you have the option of using 9 (yes, that's right NINE) completely different types of oil in just the hydraulic system. Some are Cat's own oils, changed at 4000 hour intervals, others are commercial oils changed at 2000-hour intervals. A number of the oil options have direct relevance to the ambient temperature, and obviously you wouldn't use the same viscosity of oil in Northern Canada as you would in the desert in Western Australia. The list includes synthetics & mineral-based oils, specific hydraulic oils, engine oils, TDTO (TO-4) oils, & multi-purpose tractor oils. ALL are acceptable provided they fit the ambient temperature limits listed in the manual. However for 24/7 mining operations we usually toss the ambient temperature recommendations out of the window, basically because they're designed for cold starting every morning and or course machines that work 24/7 allegedly never get cold. Even if they do it's generally the mechanics and not the operators who start them from cold and thus we can control how they are warmed up to make sure components don't get damaged. So as a rule we would go for an oil viscosity that might be heavier than suggested by the ambient temperature chart for the machine in question. A point was made about oil-cooled brakes on Cat trucks. We have 777F & 789C both with oil-cooled brakes. This system is combined with the converter and dump body hoist. It needs a TDTO oil (or commercial TO-4) with friction modifiers because of the brake packs. We use a commercial SAE 10W TO-4 in these systems. However the Steering systems on the same trucks can get by with an SAE 10W hydraulic oil. Rather than have two 10W oils on site we opted to run all hydraulic systems on 10W TO-4 for ease of inventory and also to make sure that someone didn't dump a pure hydraulic oil in a brake cooling tank by mistake. Consequences would have been pretty dire. Truck and Tractor final drives we run SAE60 FDAO oil (FD-1). It's really the only option for 24/7 mining operations as opposed to an SAE50 TO-4 which will not maintain a good enough lubrication film under high stress conditions. Weird thing we went from SAE50 to SAE30 TO-4 in motor grader tandems because the 50 was giving us brake issues. A digression to Hitachi. I've seen a number of users switch from the Hitachi zinc-free Super EX HN 46 to other brands of hydraulic oil (non zinc-free) and go through total pain with pump failures. Until recently the Hitachi oil was the only zinc-free option on the market but now I hear there are others. One such option is Conoco Ecoterra HVI 46, but I have no experience of that oil. We're running 2 Hitachi EX-3600 machines here in addition to our Cat fleet. One last thing that a lot of people forget is about oil cleanliness. If you can keep oil clean using regular oil sampling and a particle count to measure the ISO Code, and dialysis (kidney looping) when necessary you might be amazed at the increase in life you can get from components. The last decade has seen pretty much all the major manufacturers put in big efforts as regards contamination control.
Hi Nige, I assume this is a Typo..... The exact opposite is correct. Compartments with Discs/Plates do not want "Friction Modifiers" in the Add Pack. Friction Modifiers in CAT Oil are for curcuits with Variable Displacement Piston Pumps and the fine clearances in Slippers and Load on Cav Plates. Good first Post mate! You raise 2 interesting points:- CAT make 2x (And more) 10W. 10W HYDO and 10 TDTO........sound SO simular but so fundamentally different! And the longevity increase in 60W FDAO in conjunction with Kidney Looping. When I started at the current Mine in 1999 FDAO life in the arse end was 2000 Hours and it was Spent. Oxidation at 100 and dark shade of Brown. Advances in Oil Cleanliness, Filtration and Maintenance Practices have led to Oil living up to 6000-8000 Hours and stable (Honey Coloured).
G'Day mate. Should have read "without friction modifiers". I was trying to multi-task and not reading what I'd written .......... In 789C rear ends we're looking at ISO of around 21/17 at worst when we get to PM and hook up the dialysis machine, maybe 1-2 points better than that after dialysis. I'm expecting the oil to live to 10,000 hours so that will give us just one oil change up the PCR @ 20,000 hours. Major cost saving, and the components should look good when we pull them so rebuild costs will be down. I'd be interested to hear your experience of FDAO 60 in tractor final drives - not D11's I hasten to add. We're not getting them much past the recommended oil change of 2000 hours, maybe 3000 hours tops. A combination of oxidation and contamination. I'm thinking it's mostly due to the relatively small quantity of oil in them compared to a truck.
Exactly
I'd like to add that my Massey 60 backhoe,( early 1980's) calls for Multigaurd engine oil, SAE 10W as it's fluid. Tranny and hydraulics combined.
The manuel on my 416C calls for 10W motor oil and explains different oils that can be used. In warmer climates it says you can use 15w40 as well. I called my Cat dealer once and asked these same questions , the answer I got was pretty much the bucket that says hydraulic oil is what you get when you ask for hydraulic oil. Ask for engine oil and you get CAT DEO. Never answered my question. My local NAPA carries a hydraulic oils that says univeral tractor hydraulic fluid , ok what is it AW32 , AW 36 , 10 W motor oil , its hydraulic oil. OK still no answer. I went back to my manuels and went to a Lubricant only dealer , I got an answer. They are a Chevron Dealer and sold me 10W motor oil , Chevron URSLA , and I'm happy ever after.
Thats good to know, Dickjr, Thanks. So, in a nut shell, 10W motor oil can be used and or is the same as 10W Hydraulic oil. Is this what you found out?
As an earthmoving and mining contractor for over 30 yrs, with up to 55 machines in the fleet (up to 103 tonnes), I ran multigrade engine oil in hydraulics for many years, and initially at Cat's insistence that it made sense to keep oil stock inventories low and to eliminate confusion amongst operators/service people as to which oil to use. However, in the last 20-25 yrs, great advances have been made in oil technology and additives - and it's no longer a situation of "one-oil-does-it-all". There have been great strides in component design in that same time frame. For an older machine, the oil choice is much simpler than it is for a newer machine, which often has very narrow oil parameters, very specific oil composition and additives requirements - and which often relies on computerised components for operation - which are often very sensitive to oil viscosity and additives. The bottom line is, if you're running a fairly new machine (under 20 yrs old), you're well advised to contact the machine dealer or manufacturer before you make a decision to change to a different oil type than is currently being used, or to one that has been "recommended by a buddy". As CAT793 says, there are specific reasons why different oils are made - and one particular oil type may not have enough of the required additives to suit all applications.
Just another comment. Engine oil is fine as hydraulic oil. As with a number of comments. Key criteria is OEM specs. You must consider OEM viscosity requirements. The good thing about engine oil as a hydraulic is 1 greater thermal stability due to the add pack and generally due to the base oil type GrP 2 v GrP 1. 2 multi v - so less start up lag etc. 3 rationalisation of grades However you need to consider 1. Some hydraulic systems call for zinc free - engine oil contains zinc 2. Depending on quality of engine oil and the use of VI improver you can get polymer shear. Which will lower viscosity Engine oil 15w/40 is generally 12-14 cst @ 100 cel and 95-105 @ 40. So I ideal for hydraulics looking for an ISO 68 or 100 hyd oil. But in most instances engine oil will perform as well at a minimum but will in most cases cost more. Like a number of people have said from a rationalisation point it makes sense. But it's horses for courses.
I"m curious, how does warranty come into play, when something goes wrong when you have a dozen different oils listed as possibilities to dump in, as long as one of those listed is in the component your warranty is good? Around here, when my dealer tells me to use a certain oil, its the end of the discussion pretty well, and what's used, so I would have warranty and no hassles if something did go wrong, is that what others have found?
In my opinion so long as you were using an oil grade whose viscosity was correct for your ambient temperature conditions and it was included in the table of recommended oils your warranty should be good. The first things the dealer has to prove to me is that the failure was related to incorrect lubrication .........
In the late 80's Caterpillar and Navistar came up with HEUI/PowerStroke diesel engines. These engines are fitted with a Vickers design axial hydraulic piston pump (almost identical to many implement pumps on machines with load sensing) that raises oil pressure to around 4000psi max to actuate the injectors. At that time, all DEO manufacturers made sure their oils had all the properties of a good hydraulic oil (anti-foaming especially). If old technology oils were used, the oil would get foamy and the engines would lose power as the air bubbles compressed in the injector actuators. By the mid 1990's all DEO in the western world had the right formulation. That's why modern DEO is fine for Hydraulic systems. Generally, the hydraulic system is the least finicky compartment. There's no byproducts of combustion (soot) to keep in suspension, and no clutches to worry about. It's just an incompressible media that's slippery enough to keep pump bearings and such lubricated. For Cat dealers, the use of DEO in hydraulics makes their lube trucks way simpler to equip.
funny story... when I was a technician at a Cat dealer, I filled an excavators hydraulic tank with TDTO 10W (as the shop bulk tanks had been switched without my knowing- had been 10W HYDO in there for ever). The service manager was an idiot who didn't know which end of a wrench to hold onto - He freaked out and made me drain it and refill with 10W HYDO despite my saying it was fine. Then he made me sign a redo sheet and I was not allowed to work on that customer's machine ever again. This was a week after I had turned him down for an offer of a service supervisor job that he wanted me to take for a 40% cut in pay. Smartest thing I could do was just keep my mouth shut, sign it and carry on, but it always bugged me that he targeted my reputation to a large customer.
Randy, yes any oil thats listed on the OEM spec will keep you covered under warranty, if your dealer tells you different hes either lying or ignorant. There is a law called the Magnuson-Moss act.....this is a law all about warranties. This applies to different thing but since were talking oils ....... Every OEM has a certain spec when it comes to oils, as long as your meeting that spec your warranty will be in place. Take for instance, when you buy a Ford, Ford cannot force you buy Motorcraft from the Ford dealership to keep up the warranty. You can go to any quick lube, they should be able to comply with your vehicles warranty specs. Same thing goes with Heavy equipment. If your equipment calls for a certain type of hydraulic fluid you need that spec or better, using motor oil could void the warranty.
What a d**khead .......!! Strange. We don't use 10W HYDO on our site - just 10W TO-4. So there's never a question of putting hydraulic oil into a system that needs TO-4 oil.
When I was given full control of the maintenance side the first thing I did was change out the oil, they only had 10wt and 30wt oil I had change a lot of oil and read a lot of maintenance charts in the first year, now I have a cheat sheet in my truck that tells me each machine and what oil goes where. I have several Komatsu dozers that call for 15/40 in the hydraulic system, that's the only one that comes to mind
If the sticker is gone on a CASE 820 loader, and you aren't sure of recommended additives, can 1540 oil mix with hydraulic fluid? Will it mix or separate?
Oil is oil, it will mix, not separate.
Thanks, appreciate the quick response..Is it okay to mix the two? Will it hurt anything?
I don't know, I wouldn't recommend it unless it was an emergency.
Mixing fluids in a system is never really recommended, especially if you don't know what's in there right now. Better to drain and start again with something that you know. The days of using engine oil as a hydraulic fluid are pretty well past. It comes from a time long since past when the manufacturers were trying to get down almost to a single type of oil in a machine. Well that horse has bolted and although engine oil is still on the list as an "approved" fluid for hydraulic systems personally I'd have to be pretty desperate to use it. Hydraulic systems need an oil specifically designed for use that type of system, not something that's best suited to keep the products of combustion suspended in an engine oil pan.
Hi Nige, You come across as a very knowledgeable bloke. I work for a mining company and have few Hitachi excavators like EX 3600, EX 5500-5, EX 5500-6 and Hitachi recommends zinc free hydraulic oil. I have been using zinc free hydraulic oil since day dot but still see zinc levels in used hydraulic oil upto 30-50 ppm and all excavators are going through varnishing issues in pumps and valves which result in jerky hydraulic operations. I have checked with some other mining companies here in Australia and they also experience zinc levels in used zinc free hydraulic oil from these excavators. and they are seeing levels of zinc more than 100 ppm. Please note that the hydraulic filters used here are not usually fleet guard filters which are known for having leaching zinc in the oil at operating temperatures for hitachi hydraulics. Hydac filters are predominantly used in these applications. Can you please shed some light on where that zinc in oil would be coming from? Thanks Zee
I can answer this one ^^^ Trace levels of zinc are likely from the erosion of surfaces in hose end fittings,adaptor fittings and even the hardware used to fasten them.
Thanks cutting edge. Traces of zinc would be less than 10 ppm, but if you are getting more than 40 ppm of zinc in oil its way too much considering you have around 6000 litre of hydraulic oil in a typical hitachi 5500.
Zee, Are you storing the ashless oils on site in a metal vessel? Ive seen new "zinc free" oil come to site with 30-50 ppm of zinc, from cross contamination. Nige will have more experience than me, I'm sure he'll reply soon.
Thanks Blitz. Ashless oil is stored in metal tanks but we have taken a sample from bulk tank and tested, but it came out with no zinc as well. So we can rule bulk tank leaching zinc into the oil as a problem
Started selling LOTS of drive motors and hydraulic pumps to a particular customer, Went to their location and found "R&O" some full, and some empty, buckets all over the place, The new manager freaked when he found out how much they were spending on AW68 so he had switched everything to "R&O" We told him that "R&O" oil absolutely would not work in hydrostatic systems, our "Arrogance" made him so mad that he fired us!!! No good deed goes unpunished???
I have a 2004 Honda Rancher which uses a 'Hondamatic' transmission. It has a 9 piston variable displacement pump driving a 7 piston motor which has now clocked over 8.600 hours using Delo 400 15-40 exclusively. An interesting note on Komatsu's (I have 3), even the final drives on my dozer specify engine motor oil. Everything here gets Delo 400, except two Detroit Diesels which use Delo 100. Obviously my Rancher was designed to use the engine oil for it's hydraulic transmission as they use a common unified sump.
We used 15W40 on both our Liebherr Shovels in Namibia (R984C and R9250C) and had no issues. Actually, local Liebherr dealer recommended to do so as well. Dima
Sorry for not replying sooner Zee. This thread must have fallen through the cracks while I was out of the country due to a family bereavement in March. My thoughts on this are that you have to follow the process by analyzing the bulk supply tanks followed by the field service truck as a first step. However IMO it's unlikely that one or other is the source as the oil has to be hotter than ambient temperature for leaching to take place at anything approaching significant levels. It's a well to tick the box though. If the filters being used are anything other than Hitachi OEM then send them to a lab that has the capability to test them for leaching for at least 1 week (preferably more) at normal machine operating temperatures, say 85 DegC minimum. The lab will probably ask for both new and used filters for their tests. We used https://www.oillab.com/ and I can thoroughly recommend them. However I'm sure you can find somewhere in Oz with similar capabilities. If the filters come back negative then the only other thing is if you are not using Hitachi OEM hoses then there may be some zinc content in the hose fittings used to make them. Again your lab could subject a few samples of hose fitting to an extended leach test with hot oil.
I am aware of the horrible things that can happen to wet brakes when the wrong oils are used, but one example puzzles me. I once worked for Barminco, an underground contractor, running Cat AD55 and 55B trucks alongside the same trucks run by the client. Barminco switched to engine oil in the hydraulics, which of course meant the brakes as well, while the client continued using hydraulic oil. Same environment, same loadings and nothing seemed to go wrong. The two Atlas Copco MT 6020's that the client introduced used a totally different suite of oils as I recall. Horses for courses I guess - the MT6020 was like a model T ford compared to the Rolls Royce Cat AD55B.
Well, My main inside man at Bobcat tells me that the new and "improved" motor oils have had important ingredients removed to comply with the new federal emissions requirements regarding low-ash and so on, MAKING IT NO LONGER SUITABLE for use in hydrostatic systems in Bobcats of any age. Now they use a high grade hydrostatic hydraulic fluid similar to Case Hy-Tran Ultra, or our Chevron 1000 THF. New Saying: "If it ain't broke the Feds will figure out a way to break it" NOW Bio-Diesel 5% Minimum is causing a major pain with tier-4 aftertreatment too!!!
Well my response here may be off-topic, as I am Not a commercial operator just a homeowner/homesteader with privately used diesel tractors, going back to a 1950 Austin Western Super 88H. So you guys now gotta use 5% bio-diesel? That sucks .. like the red dye in off-road being water soluble. My comments on Tier 4. Now for me, not being in a commercial enterprise and out in the woods as it were, how is it that in order to meet Tier 4 criteria in tractor-trucks and diesel powered tractors .. require the use of an after-treatment fluid, while the latest locomotives have gone from 16 cylinders down to twelve cylinders while still putting out 4,500 horsepower, without the use of any after-treatment fluid? Perhaps this is a matter of scale? The older I get, the lesser I knew And as in my original post here in this thread, my sweet little Komatsu D-21 P5 specifically calls for motor oil to be used in ALL systems, Even in the final drives.
Dresser TD7G is one example of the manual calling for engine oil in the transmission including hydraulic pumps, and gears, and steering clutches & brakes. Then they go one saying it must meet TO1 specs, and be #10. I've never seen an oil meeting all those specs. I'm going with Hy-Tran.
You might be better using an SAE10W TO-4
When in doubt go with the oem recommendation.
Easy way to find the 'improved' motor oils, look at the round stamp and see if it says 'energy conserving' that's the evil stuff, makes motorcycle clutches slip like crazy and causes lots of other equipment issues, loss of brakes, clutches. Although an oil change seems to fix it in short order.
Just bought a 86 - ish John deere 693B excavator yesterday. Long weekend here, want to get some work done. Being a maintenance man, I want to change out everything including the hydraulics fluid. I read that the deere 690 chewed up pumps on hydraulic fluid and then engine oil fixed that. I don't know what is in it, it smells a little like both engine oil and hydraulic fluid. What should go in it?