I have pondered this subject alot... and I would like some input about possible solutions to this ongoing problem. Here is an excerpt from my post about this. "Another reason that seasoned operators damage equipment is; production mentality, I have been guilty of this myself. When you are being pressured to perform at a high level, it takes maturity, confidence, patience and knowledge to not fall into the mindset of letting the idea of production outweigh common sense as regards equipment damage… there is such a thing as going too fast even in a scraper, but other equipment also, there is a time and place to go fast! I have seen supervisors abuse this rule many times as regards scrapers and rock trucks… sometimes out of production demands on them and sometimes out of foolishness. There is a fine line that needs to be recognized and adhered to between production and counter production." http://69.89.31.238/~terrasmo/2012/08/23/equipment-damage/
I must preface my comments by saying it's really difficult for me as a moderator to say what's on my mind concerning this thread. It's my primary mission (as a mod) to allow thoughts of members stand or fall on their own merit, determined by the comments of others, and simply monitor the interaction to insure that things remain in the realm of civility. But on this topic, something compels me to express my thoughts, even though I have reservations doing so. So forgive me members if I push the envelope here. Because both questions are worthy of discussion, I've split out the mixed replies into two threads. Discussion of members' links to their personal blogs can be found here: (Discussion of blogs removed.) Second, the topic at hand, equipment abuse and damage. You present a case that involves a number of reasons that equipment gets damaged, but I could explain the majority of damage to equipment with just two reasons, 1) they don't care, after all, it's not their equipment, and 2) stupidity, the operator doesn't have the sense to recognize that the tree he is digging around will put a nice dent in the rear door of an excavator, or the vibration of a breaker can rattle even the tightest fastener loose, which means the operator should regularly inspect machine components other than simply watching the point of the breaker chisel. Third, one of the reasons you suggested was the cause of equipment damage is the result of speed and production. I'm sorry, there's not a job out there that does not demand speed and production. A lack of either of the two will result in termination because there are plenty of applicants out there that will produce this desire of pretty much all employers and project managers. Speed and productivity is demanded, it's a tough environment, but if you can't produce speed and productivity without damaging equipment, then you fall into the two categories that I mentioned, you either don't care or your stupid. (Discussion of blogs removed.) And then there is this other point that I noticed (sorry members, but you must go to his blog to read about this and know what I'm referring to), you chose a topic, equipment damage, and did a good job of presenting your thoughts about equipment damage and your thoughts of why it happens. But then, somehow, unrelated to topic, you discuss mechanics with bad attitudes, which is on another planet of topic. But then, maybe not. Being a professional mechanic myself, and one with much attitude, when I see an operator that has committed one of the two sins in my mind, either being stupid or from "I don't care", I'm going to chew your arse out when I see equipment damage. After all, I've got plenty of work because machines have a way of tearing up on their own, I don't need stupid or "I don't care" operators creating more work for me. :yup
I love "stupid/I dont care" operators. I make loads of money off guys like that. (Discussion of blogs removed.)
Yair . . . (Discussion of blogs removed.) Now equipment damage/abuse that's a whole other ball game. As folks on here will know I have been out of the game a while . . . but the dirt hasn't changed. I used to get really p###ed off on jobs that were bid so tight that flat out balls'nall production was required to try and make the numbers . . . B/S like tandem pushing twenty and thirty yard scrapers for instance. If the few seconds gained was that important then start a half an hour earlier in the morning. Far more important than speed (I have been known to lock out 7and 8 on the quadrant) are proper techniques in the cut and on the fill . . .and immaculate maintainace on the haul-road. I have worked on twenty one's and thirty ones on a five mile haul building saddle dams and the 'powers that be' wondered why we were doing (1970's technology) tyres when daytime temperatures were forty five degrees . . . it was pretty much a no brainer to run that haul at night And don't get me started with ripping! There is plenty of footage on youtube showing ####heads on million dollar plus tractors who are absolutely clueless . . . and this carries over into the real world. I have made my views known on the abilities of the "average" dozer hand. . . technique is every thing. There are ways of picking up production without running machinery to the limit. 'Nuff said. Cheers.
(Discussion of blogs removed.)
(Discussion of blogs removed.)
As to the question of abuse of equipment... Terrasmooth refers to "production mentality". I've always thought of it as "mission mentality." Even a good and concientious operator can get in the mindset that the mission outweighs the possibility of collateral damage. There was a video posted somewhere a while back (don't recall if it was here or elsewhere), of a loader operator in New York City damaging a number of cars trying to get his machine unstuck from a snowbank. That's a prime example, I think, of a guy who's succumbed to mission mentality. If you've ever been there, you understand how it's possible to do actual damage and be completely aware that you're doing it, but disregard it because you MUST accomplish the mission. (And to be clear, to understand it is one thing. To forgive it is another.) The question of abuse is a little trickier, because you can more easily fool yourself into thinking you're working within the limits of the machine's abilities, when you're not. (Yes, I've used a hoe to bang on rock, and snapped the axles of a stuck dumptruck trying to horse it out of a hole. I'm not proud of those behaviours and hopefully I've outgrown them.) How to handle this mentality is a matter of a manager's finesse. Good management needs to understand these dynamics, and be able to take advantge of them as far as production goes, but put the brakes on them before it begins to cost money.
Willy59 I see that I pissed you off … not my intention, but it is what it is. Are you trying to tell us that all operators are stupid or don’t care? I get that impression from most mechanics with a bad attitude. There is not one operator out there who has any time in the seat, who at some time or another has not damaged a piece of equipment… if someone never makes a mistake; they simply are not doing anything. Furthermore are you trying to say that mechanics never damage equipment in the course of their duties? I know this to be untrue; when they damage something they hide the incident in many cases. Going one step further if you put a mechanic with some basic operating skills in the seat to operate they will either; putt around to avoid damage and risk having their façade revealed or be like other operators and do their best to operate at production speed and eventually damage something. I will agree that operators who continually damage equipment should be removed from the job. The issue is not as black and white as you like to portray it.
opcorn
I think what Willy59 is trying to say is as one mechanic working on an equipment spread with many operators the higher majority of preventable damage has fallen into those two catagories. It is not necessarily the operators falling into those catagories all the time. Being a field mechanic myself I've seen it myself. You have operators that do a great job all the time but one day they make a mistake. It doesn't mean their branded for life. Then you have others that you spend all day following around because they could break an anvil. As far as mechanics having a bad attitude, when you hear everyexcuse every day for every incident that happens out there and the majority end with"it wasn't my fault" as a mechanic you start to get a little cynical about the operators. I try to avoid this attitude because the operators will start hiding their mistakes from the mechanics until aomeone finally catches it or until they pawn it off on someone else. Remember operators outnumber mechanics so a few bad apples keeps the mechanic at work twenty hours a day while the operator is at home having dinner and watching tv.
Yair . . . I always encouraged mechanics to get a bit of seat-time . . . made it easier for them to understand problems as they arose . . . small spreads though. In those days our operators were required to have tools to 11/8" and assist with repairs. Cheers
Gentlemen, What you are all talking about are people problems. Since so far there is no such thing as cloning, every human being will be different. Some will be smart, some will be willing, many will be dumb and willing, a lot will just be plain dumb. It is not real common to find people that are both smart and willing and you will find out the hard way that even they can do dumb things. Unfortunately running heavy equipment runs the risk of damaging things. Accept that as a fact, seek out and plan on ways to mitigate that risk and don't be surprised when it happens. Complaining about it here does no good and playing the blame game is entirely counterproductive.
Oh my no terrasmooth, you didn't "tick me off" personally, the statement you made in quote above are the type of folks I was referring to, I guess I did a poor job of giving that impression, that's my bad. The fact is, it takes more than simply pulling levers to be a true operator, one that can achieve the goal of speed and productivity without beating the doors off of an excavator. Yes, mistakes happen, as the old saying goes "**** happens", but it's not hard to recognize the patterns of repeat offenders that continually tear stuff up, and it can typically be explained by either "don't care" or "just plain stupid". As for the operators that are doing their job, any mechanic worth his salt will do everything he can to keep that fella hammering, even if it's repairing the occasional "oops" that the operator may do. But the guys that can break an iron ball with a rubber hammer, I get attitude then.
I am not trying to blame or judge anyone here. I brought up an ongoing issue with equipment that we all experience from different perspectives... it's good to hash out the realities from the incorrect perceptions that may be present. As John said; there will always be damage, knowing that; I believe that training and awareness of the equipment and what it takes to keep a fleet of trucks or a scraper spread going behind the scenes after hours is vital for everyone. I understand that mechanics get frustrated with damage... particularly when they are burned out from working so many hours, and there are other factors in each individual case. I always have pitched in to help the mechanics that were for example; changing edges or other things that required me to stop the machine... sometimes even when they were directing their frustration unjustly towards me. I know this for sure; having a continual bad temperament is only really hurting the person having it, physically and mentally. Working for small companies does provide for some cross training like Scrub Puller mentioned... this is a good thing for everyone involved
I'll give you another twist terrasmooth, rental machines. For quite some time now, whenever one of our machines go out on rent, I take pictures of the machine from various angles. On more than one occasion, the machine would be returned with a dent or some damage. The (almost guaranteed) response from the renter is "it was like that when it was delivered to me". Umm...not so, I have dated pictures that show that dent was not there when it was delivered to you. Suffice it to say, they pay for the damage. :yup
Willy, Empire Cat will video the equipment before it goes out... This is good! I recommend that customers do a walk around before it is unloaded with the rental driver and double check to make sure any existing damage is noted, if and when it is possible, CYA works to both parties advantage. It is usually not an issue with the more reputable rental companies as they are not out to screw people. Tire wear on scrapers and grouser wear on dozers can get pretty expensive, One outfit I worked for would put their own tires on any rental scrapers just to be safe.
To both parties advantage for sure. I was prepping a skid steer mounted breaker for a rental customer, he was standing near while I was checking it out. He noticed some scuffs on the jacket of the hoses going to breaker and pointed them out to me. I assured him "yes, I'm aware of the scuffs on those hoses, I have taken pics of them so I know it's not something you did when it returns". They feel better knowing that.
a good and very valid point,,,,,,,,,,,,,, proof in a dated pic
C'mon Willie, everybody knows rental machines don't count. I mean, it's common knowledge that they'll go faster, jump further, and never need lubrication....LOL
LoL, I think that is a common perception alco.
Yep, nothing parties like a rental. Seriously, I rented a 319 from the Cat house a week ago. The lowboy driver (hired by the rental house) picked the machine up from the last renter and upon delivery to my job, pointed out that one of the lights on the boom was missing and subsequently noted it on the condition report. It does go both ways. If I damage a rental machine I expect to pay for it, however if it was damaged by a prior renter and I am charged for it, my horns come out. The easiest way to handle it is to go over the machine carefully when it is delivered and note any damage. This business has all sorts of characters in all aspects. You learn quickly who you can work with and who to stay away from.
Interesting post, I'm glad to see this idea floats around in the construction world. New member, long time lurker here, heavy construction has been a small family business for 3 generations. I am a full time college student and decided to take the corporate route, just to see what else is out there for a change this year and see how the "big boys" do it. Growing up I was taught to just more or less take my time do it right and take care of the machinery. Like I said, small family business, ie 5 of us and there is no way we can afford a lot of overhead with unnecessary equipment depreciation and breakdowns. I was amazed at how some of my fellow operators ran the equipment when I got to the "big company". Basically a bunch of hot-rods as we would refer to them back home, and a lot of "professional operators" - not really a compliment in this context. My foreman himself told me to "run it like I stole it", 627G for reference. I didn't change a thing in how I operated the machine for the duration of my employment there. Steady and safe were my goals, yeah sometimes I lagged behind a little bit, but there is something said for someone who watches the machine for stuff breaking down, and won't rod the hell out of it. I was just surprised at how they didn't mind equipment abuse, to an extent of course. It just goes to show the difference between companies that move dirt by the hour, and companies that move dirt by the yard. This was obviously a yardage job.
I wonder if the machine's frame (or house if excavator) could be equipped with a small accelerometer with memory history. Take readings when the machine is returned, try to discern what the typical values are...compare these readings to a similar environment owner operator to try and learn if distinction can be used to make decisions about damaging usage. *
Yair . . . I suppose this comment is going off topic a bit but I realise the electronic controls of which I am so critical have been introduced to minimise machine abuse. But , being an old bloke I just can't get my head around such things as the need to power-shift a dozer into reverse with no brake or decel. It gains bugger all as far as production goes but obviously it reduces machine abuse with unskilled or uncaring operators . . . I can wear unskilled, they go on the stick-shift but I'll never wear uncaring . . . this whole issue is about attitude and values. We have this ongoing problem of the dumbing down of the human race. Skill levels at doing almost anything are declining and in our industry it really shows. I'm told a local port authority with a large fleet of elevens pushing coal has a multi-million dollar monitoring system so the powers that be know what gear each tractor is in and how fast it's travelling at any given time . . . apparently a few of the "operators" were using angel gear to coast back down the pile . . . IMHO it would have been far more cost effective to kick a bit of arse. My O/T and pointless rant for the morning. Cheers.
I'm not really sure there is a one size fits all cure for this problem . Company I work has a crane rental side and a bridge building side . Just moving equipment from one side to the other is an eye opener . Just as an example I helped another driver load a 65 ton rough terrain machine . I just started tossing empty bottles and trash out of it . Job super drove by mad as hell , Wanted to know why that trash was there . I told him to ask his Op because I couldn't get in the damn thing without kicking stuff out . Mirror was broken on the offhand side . Two outrigger pads were broken . No BIG damage but a ton of small stuff . The super (In my opinion has no one to blame but himself ) should have been in someones backside . Also they do not assign equipment to one person so they have no way to track who's tearing stuff up . Rental side is different . Machines are assigned . A different level of care is expected . Back to supervision again . If you have a foreman that is single focused on load counts or production that's the start of your problems . One company here has helped themselves some by making sure repairs are billed directly to the job . It affects the bottom line on the job and seems that the job boss's are more interested in the health of the equipment .
Maybe a reminder stuck in an easy to see place might help
There's a local road building company that was working up in Minneapolis a couple years ago. They were working Saturdays and apparently one of their excavator operators was sick of it so he decided to dump a bunch of silica sand in the engine of his 345BL, and ran her loading trucks until she locked up tight. Needless to say he doesn't work there anymore. I just can't believe how people can do that.
On most jobs the law of the land is, "Produce or go home!" Unless something is very dangerous, hurting someone, or illegal, good luck saying you don't want to do it.
I am also agreed with your point of view Terrasmooth If there are bad operators then certainly there are good one also. but only those operators should be removed from the job who damage the equipment. Punishment should be only for those who commit mistake. :bash
Yair . . . About Tiny's suggested sign up thread. In the US what's the difference between "salary" and "wages"? . . . over here not too many operators would get a "salary". Not trying to be a smart arse or any thing I'm just interested in the different nuances of our cultures. Cheers.
I think the rental ops mentioned above that take pictures/video of equipment before it goes out and charge the cost of repairing excessive damage to the renters are on the right track to correcting all of the problems mentioned here. That same procedure should be applied to assignments of a company's owned equipment, with the project manager assuming the role of renter. The problem is that few project managers are held accountable for the damage their crews inflict on equipment. So the situation can't even rightly be blamed on the project managers. Whoever set up the structure for accounting for equipment costs needs to wake up and start allocating costs to the only people capable of controlling them. You want to create an emphasis on equipment-cost control and operator training? Start charging your projects directly for equipment repairs. Not saying it's easy. If you have machines jumping routinely from job to job, you have to build in safeguards so that normally expected long-term wear doesn't unfairly burden the project unlucky enough to have the thing go down on their watch. There must be contractors out there who have some success with this. Just my .02 Larry
UK operators are paid a wage as in hours worked,,,,,,,,,salaried people get paid monthly,usually a fixed amount not affected by hours worked.The word salary comes from Roman times when a soldier was paid in "salt" from the Latin word "sala"
Yair . . . robin yates uk That's pretty much as it applies here in Australia and not too many operators would be "salary men". . . just thought it may have been different in the 'States. Cheers.
i wouldn't say "mistake" exactly. mistakes happen. we can try to prevent, and punish, mut it is just that, a mistake. i believe a better term would be "abuse" even great operators make mistakes. this, is pretty much universal. only exception, is where production timeline is not emphasized. in that case, things tend to go the opposite, and the work gets milked the bageezas out of. and that brings me to my next point: yes, the biggest majority of the problem lies in the hands of the "floor" or "ground" management. this person, or persons is/are supposed to be the main managements right hand. almost all of the time, it turns out to be more of a left foot with uncontrollable spasms. this person mostly has a need to be powerful, and look good. rather, a good manager would look at the big picture and do what is necessary for the workers to work well. in turn, this takes the ability to be more compliant to the workers needs (less powerful feeling) and sometimes take heat for things (not looking good) these guys do actually exist. in the end, though, the numbers come out better. better production:cost ratio. a numbers guy in the office should see that in the end. i have been in the industry my whole working life, basically, and there are 2 big people problems. the management, and the universal feud between menchanics and operators. i happen to be a mechanic, and can't claim innocent to the anger and aggression, but i keep in my head, that the end goal is to keep the stuff moving. another point that i pass on as much as i can, is that the mechanic is often an operators advocate. if you make a point to have their back and look at it from their side. if you relay more than a negative opinion on the situation. take into account the long grueling hours in the seat to mull in their head, often under press. if you do this, you form a good working relationship that makes everything better on both ends. an operator will reciprocate. same goes for operators. remember that we are here to take care of the equipment. we put our heart into it. we do NOT work for you. when pushing equipment, there is a balance, and it usually takes experience, risk, and tact/feel to operate in it. i have seen the shy guy baby, and over-analize "taking care of" the equipment... to the extent of screaming in my head "put a load on it before she gumms up!" i have also been around more than enough hot-rodders/hot-doggers, and hot-heads, that will absolutely croak without hauling heaps of donkey, to make my stomach churn. the saying where i work is "it all pays by the hour".. and that comes in handy when an operator-abuse repair comes up. well, enough of the rant, and back to the thread specific topic reply. i believe the damage should be addressed as-per case, but many times it would be set between the operator and the manager to take the account/heat of what happened. the mine i work at has a huge paper-trail for each incident, which i think is excessive vs a sit-down, or a couple phone-calls, but toe same end result. you need to learn from it, rather then repeat it to habit level. some guys are going to learn the first time on their own, some need time and patience to learn how to avoid damage/abuse while increasing production. many times, it is a slow-go to re-train bad habits and mind-set, as complacency is a well-rooted problem. i di just that with new safety practices. some bosses hated it, but i sped back up to the good work pace i had before, yet no longer had the normal rushing f-ups we all would fall victim to. it is also not universal. some guys will take it too far at being tentative, and some guys will refuse to comply. as for the "tracking"..... yah, that really does exist....for quite some time now. about 25 years, that i know of. i have to keep these stupid tripmaster units going, and they are like v2.6.... from the early 90's, which means that there were 6 earlier versions of this platform, and another whole platform before that. long story short- it logs the databuss information of the unit, as well as any other add-ons you wish to implement. the way we have it set-up, an operator logs on, and, until they log-off, you can see location, speed, rpm, switch functions, pto, etc, etc..... if you have something made in the last 10+ years, at least, you can log on to the ecm/bcm/icm/etc and see failure logs and abuse histories. there is also mechanical power-train protection. they make "torque fuses" for the gear-train, that is a collar/shaft welded in the middle of a drive-shaft and you bolt-in the "fuses" to the flanges on them. you choose the size just above what the gear-train can safely sustain, as far as torque shock goes, and they will snap when this is exceeded. if you have ever had a rear-end grenade, then having these installed fleet-wide before-hand would have been likely 1/10th the cost of the single repair. real-world experience: they do absolutely nothing to hinder performance, and can stay in there for the life of the equipment, and actually do take a great amount of acceptable abuse/shock, but they really do work. they simply stop those guys that want to dump the clutch, launch, etc, who would otherwise be tearing up differentials, planetaries, final drives, etc. the shop i currently work at, up at a mine, used to have drivers tear up differentials on a regular basis, as the gross there for a truck is up to 500,000lb (i've actually seen more) and many just blamed it on the trucks being over-loaded. as soon as they implemented the fuses, then the drivers had to wait for a mechanic to show up with new torque fuses, since the drive-line was just free-spinning on itself. this quickly changed things. before, you could not definitely see the habitual abuse that would take out the gear-train, since the trucks were not assigned. instantly, the paperwork showed who was grossly abusing the trucks, and who wasn't. *first post, btw*
I believe in accountability. It goes hand in hand with Integrity. Operators learning new equipment, of which I am one, need to understand if there are subtleties that would be considered abuse, the majority of abuse is pretty much common sense. Mechanics and operators don't have to be opponents, especially if you make them partners and mutually accountable to each other. Been there, done that. After the initial pleasantries and then pecker measuring is over, they usually form a working relationship. As far as company philosophy on how to treat equipment, I'd have to say that the example of supervision determines the course. I personally witness the use of excavators and bhoe's as breakers everyday. I know it's not right, they know it's not right, but heaven forbid if you actually suggest using concrete saws or breaker attachments to do the job and "slow down" the project. Not that the equipment breaking down over misuse will impede the project in any way of course, but the responsible parties run afoul of my original remark. Too stupid or don't care I seem to remember from early on in this thread, Yep, I've seen both and try not to be either, by way of pure ignorance or conditioned attitude. -Loco
I think personally the biggest issue is expectations. More times than i care to remember i've been put into a situation where my boss expects me to do something that is obvious abuse to my machine. He of course will turn a blind eye and the job gets done. Everybody is happy (except me, i hate seeing equipment mis-used or abused) But the real kicker comes when in a similar situation, the machine is damaged or breaks down and the boss lays everything in your lap. Says it was operator negligence. Been there done that, i learned my lesson. There is a machine out there to do every job imaginable. It is my Job to run those machines. It is NOT my fault that a job was improperly bid and the correct machine is unavailable. Things happen, the job has to get done. Another aspect, is the aforementioned "production mentality" i've seen and experienced this before too. Production comes first, everything else comes after... Machine doesn't have fuel? Run it dry! Pins a squealing and creaking... Keep running it! I need the dozer pushing dirt, so use the loader to push tree's... This one cost me a front fender a hyd tank and a front tire.... But what do i know. I went 4 years running equipment. Being as productive as i could be and as safe as i could be. I took pride in my immaculate record. No accidents, no damage and still one of the most productive guys on the crew. Everything i did, i did for a reason and if anybody questioned it i quickly informed them as to how and why i did things. I quickly rose to the proverbial top of the food chain, my machines were always taken care of. Anything that i wrote down on a pre-trip was addressed and fixed asap. I had the nicest machine in the company, everybody knew it and they also knew that i had earned it. If i asked for cutting edges i got them, not because i had warped mine or broke them prying on rocks, but because they were wore out and it was actually time for new ones. When an operator builds a reputation like that. They begin to be treated better by just about everybody. When my machine breaks down, im the guy who gets out to help the mechanic get it back running again. I can stand by and hand over wrenches or i can be shoulder deep in oil and grease. It really comes down to the mechanic. But when an operator will get out of the seat and lend a hand and be willing to get dirty. Those things are noticed and the next time you see that mechanic GENERALLY they are in a good mood. Machines break, they break down. Mechanics know this, they also know abuse when they see it, so does a good operator. When an operator comes to the point that they realize they are responsible for more than just operating the machine, but they are responsible for the machine as well as the work they do with it. They obtain a certain level of respect from everyone. Fixing your own machine, even if its the only day you will be on it for a year. Earns you respect from mechanics. Everybody makes mistakes, i've made mine and when i ripped up my machine the mechanics came by and i helped him with what i could. First thing i told him was that I really did it this time. I told my boss i would stay and help get the loader back and running. in the following conversation with the mechanic is when i came to realize that i had gone against my gut feeling, i did something i felt was wrong because a "boss" had said thats what needed to be done. Sometimes equipment it abused, yes its really easy to do it. So much of it, is operators just dont care. Alot of it, thats what operators are expected to do. But, if you can instill in your operators that they are responsible for the work that they do, as well as the safe operation of their machine as well as the overall condition of the machines that they are in. Then the operators begin to care more, they dont shift F to R with out Decelerating they dont side load their excavator by swinging the bucket sideways into embankments or rocks. they don't bang on concrete or asphalt expecting to breaking it. (in a reasonable sense, asphalt thats pulled out of a parking lot can be broken just by setting a bucket gently ontop of it) They don't engage their parking brakes while their machine is still rolling.
Well said Truckin and everyone else, I see you have learned how this game is played. There have been many good points made in this thread… The ones that stand out to me are leadership and the ‘ends versus the means attitude’ set by those at the top. You have to lead from the front, not lay low and hope the damage does not get attributed to you; or hang the operator out to dry when the odds are stacked against them.’ Mission objective’ is something that even conscientious operators need to approach with sound judgment. This often takes years and many hours of experience to achieve. We see people in the military that blindly follow orders directed by a politician who does not care what the troops have to live with for the rest of their life as a result in many cases. Our brain is the best tool we have… we should use it to read between the lines and combine it with experience to know when to back off; for the machines benefit and our own reputation.
hahaha I like your signature A good mechanic isn't expensive, he's priceless! I agree with it !
opcorn:spongebob
Had my truck at the tire shop getting new drive tires. Two tiremen worked on it, one experienced and one rookie. The rookie ran circles around the older experienced man who helped the rookie finish his side of the truck after he had his four on. I can't help but think this scenario applies to operators as well. Prodution should come from smooth efficient operation of the equipment speed isn't nessesarily more productive especially if fuel and down time are considered. If prodution is so important it should be the formans responibility to see to it that the appropriate operators are in the seat. Experienced operators also need to help emeging talent learn the tricks of the trade, if they learn to beat the equipment from day one the'll probable always operate that way. I've only worked for my self and small family buissneses so i haven't been exposed to the large company mentallity but I thought I'd put my $0.02 sorry for if I was to long winded.
I have bossed for many an outfit. Some companies actually fix the iron, and the rate of the equipment reflects that. A dirt cheap rate to the field and you can be rest assured you are going to be plagued by breakdowns and had better have a 2:1 ratio of backup equipment to do the job. You will exchange some of your profit to the shop, I guarantee it. I agree about the posts I have read about the mechanic vs. operator feuds. I don't like pissin matches, they just leave you empty. Is this operator abuse? It was definitely one of those pissin matches between wrenches and operators; I had a job where I was forced to run some 834 rubber tire dozers. This job was real silty. When you would water it, it would turn to snot. The 834s would spin their tires all day just trying to run across the job. They burned twice the fuel, the engines and transmissions overheated all day, every day and they got no production. The shop was happy because they were running and "making money!" (for the shop and Exxon IMO) Enough was enough for me. I asked the shop to order some snow chains. The big noise in the shop absolutely refused to hear it. He said, who has ever heard of putting snow chains on a rubber tire dozer during the summer in Arizona. I took the $ from job funds and ordered them myself. The mechanics refused to install them, so I did it myself. After that, they burned half the fuel, We could give scrapers a bump or double on a Cat. They could knock down the fill FINALLY! The water pulls weren't constantly blasting the radiators with water to cool them down and could go lay water down on the grade. They could side by side push short muck into the fills. I never loved them so much and saw what rubber tire dozers were capable of as I really had very little experience with them prior. Everyone was happy, management, field mechanics, bean counters. They ran for 2 months with chains, then the dreaded day came, one of them threw a chain and it tore up a fender pretty bad. Probably a good 10 hour fix because it was the fender that doubled as a hydraulic tank. Shop had their way, chains came off, 834s went back to their old ways. Couldn't stand them bleeding cost out of my job so I had to park them further ticking off the shop. I figured I'd eat the mobilization to get them off the job. The guy that was operating it was branded as a "cowboy." I'll admit he should have stopped and got the chain fixed instead of roading it to the line up. That was operator error and I guess it could be abuse. How does it go from doing a great job to blaming the Superintendent for the original idea that saved so much money? I got a good reaming from management. Were we abusive on the equipment for putting the chains on? It's a matter of opinion I guess and where lines within companies are drawn. Funny how things turned! (Discussion of blogs removed.) were bid so tight that flat out balls'nall production was required to try and make the numbers . . . B/S like tandem pushing twenty and thirty yard scrapers for instance. If the few seconds gained was that important then start a half an hour earlier in the morning.[/QUOTE] I would think if double banging was taboo, Cat would have never built a DD9 and they wouldn't sell rear buttons for dozers. One thing to understand about scraper spreads is all the $ is made and lost in the cut. 2 seconds per load all day will easily pay off. The thing that irks me about tandem pushing is when I have a scraper sitting in the cut and the skinners are doubling on one instead of splitting up. A parked scraper makes no money. I do not like downtime. If an operator is abusing his machine I know it and we will have a talk. It will also agitate me said scraper hand is ALWAYS sitting waiting on a load. I don't mind high balling if the conditions are right, however, I believe that operating a scraper is more than just hauling ass around in a circle. It is about timing and rhythm. When the Cats have to decelerate and build power up to push a stopped scraper it's $ wasted. That scraper hand could have drug the cut, cleaned up some ruts, cut a windrow for the pushcat, knocked down the fill a bit, just enough time to come into the cut on the fly and produce a little extra work to boot! Basically, a productive spread pays for the equipment and support (mechanics) and allows the company to stay in business another day to move another yard. (or a CM for you blokes across the pond) Things I consider abuse are as follows: One thing that really ticks me off is when they break the knuckles on the apron. One guy broke 5 of them in a weeks time. I guess he liked the ass time and later the unemployment line. I know he was ejecting his load into his closed apron constantly even snapping off new bolts replaced a few days earlier. Wasting the diffs in the scraper from turning with the diff lock on. Spinning tires When the scraper hand has it out for the cat skinner and trans holds his machine in 2nd, puts it in reverse and makes that guy chase him then "lets him have it" at the last second. Camming over tires around corners Going full out into a bunch of donikers with a paddle scraper Snapping your load out of a backhoe or excavator bucket I'm sure I can come up with a ton more When are old operating tricks not seen but by a few are considered operator abuse? Is it operator abuse when the push cat goes down and one of your 31s spins around and pushes stinger to stinger? How about hanging a blade on a slope and cutting a 1:1 slope? Is it operator abuse to grade in a circle with a blade? How about doubling up on scrapers? 3 pushpulls in a string in nice dirt? Grading in reverse on a blade? Pushing scrapers with a blade? How about intentionally setting up your pushcat to pick up a stinger with a C-dozer and putting the scraper tire up on the windrow to make the can cut toward your edge forcing you to get on a clutch to straighten out? How about kicking your paddle wheel in 8th when 3/4 loaded and topping off in the cut while grabbing gears? How about bailing off the side of mountains cause its the shortest way to the fill? How about running 2+ cats side by side to gain the extra cubes? Rolling huge windrows out of your blade? How about blocking one of the front wheels and hanging one tire in air to get more steering stability on a steep slope you are pulling on a blade? Picking up large donakers with a scraper? Removing manhole rings, lids and risers with your blade? Using the moldboard of the blade to break the beads on your tires so you can fix them in the middle of no where. I am guilty of all of the above and probably a 1,000 more that people might consider "cowboying" your equipment. I don't do anything to someone else's equipment that I would not do to my own. Who writes the proctor for what equipment abuse is and what it isn't? I would say, when you hire on with an outfit, go with the flow, see what they do and try to follow suit. Ask or suggest before you attempt something out of the norm. Every company has their own idea of how a machine should be operated. Teach, train and instill values into your hands like ranchers. Ride for the brand.
I need to learn to do the multi-quote thing, anyway, a few thoughts on your post durtmvr: