This is a serious question not trying to start a brand war looking for practical side by side comparison. I read a lot of stuff about how Caterpillar Equipment is superior when it comes to longevity and reliability. We run multiple different brands I.e. Deere dozers, Cat crawler loaders, Deere/Hitachi hoes, Case skid steers. My father is probably less brand loyal than I am and tends to buy what works and has since he started in 1983. My question is are we missing the boat on machinery liability by running "off" brand stuff not Cat? Dad hasn't had a Cat hoe since he got rid of his 215 and E70B in the 90s. We have run several Hitachi machines since then and the last couple new ones have been Deere(160D and 200D). I read a lot it seems where guys say Cat stuff runs longer and lasts better. It seems like more contractors are running more non-Cat hoes in N.IL and back in the day Cat commanded the market. I do see a lot of 336 machines so I'm assuming that they are good. Our last Hitachi 200 had like 11 or 12K hours on it when we traded it with almost zero problems other than I think swing gear seal. We have had great luck with Hitachi/Deere hoes for example but haven't tried a newer Cat for several years. Are there guys running brands like Komatsu/Hitachi/Deere and Caterpillar stuff that can say side by side the Cat Equipment they run does deliver lower operating cost due to less repair? I'm not being smart this is a serious question if we are missing the boat? Obviously I see Cat stuff commands a premium price in the market and resale value is Better. We do still have 2 963s, a 953 and 955L which have been great machines. Especially the old L.
Cat has a little better support. They carry parts for older models. But they still charge you $700 for a service manual and $1000 for a handful of rubber seals to fix the leaky joystick on your skidsteer. My 20- 25 year old machines are Cat but I doubt they are worth much of a premium over other brands. All manufacturers seem to love the idea of planned-in obsolescence. It seems every brand has more than their share of lemons. If ever a manufacturer cleans up their act I will be loyal to that brand until the next merger, which in todays global economy probably wouldn't be long.
Check in our experience there is definitely truth that it is easy to get parts for older cat stuff. As far as parts on our other stuff we have had pretty good luck. I do feel like resale on older Caterpillar items is good. Go to a RB auction. A D6D dozer will bring more money than a Deere 850C that's 15 years newer and has a cab for example.
Dozers made by Cat in the 60's, 70's and 80's really set the standard for quality and longevity, especially mid to large sized dozers. But I would not say that standard is across the board. My 1992 Cat excavator or my 2001 Cat skid steer are really no better than other Japanese or American brands of skid steers or excavators other than slightly better support and slightly better resale in my opinion.
The big thing that makes the difference for me is cat dealer support is everywhere . One of are local concrete guys loves mustang skid steers swears by them , but even he is quick to point out that stupid part that just gave out aint going to be easy to get . They all break and they all need to be fixed . I like deere hoes pretty solid machines , But i prefer cat and here is why . Operator said he heard a noise that sounded like baseball cards in bicycle spokes . The stabilizer pins fell out very strange problem . Called deere . Well we cant get a tech to you for two days . Why not i ask . We only have 3 service trucks and they are busy . Can you bring it in ? no because its 45 miles off the nearest paved road in the middle of a river . Well you need to get it out of the river to fix it ! Cat has always bent over backwards to fix it where it broke Cause sometimes it cant come out of the hole its in . Don't get me wrong deere makes quality products , but don't have the man power . We just called a local yocal and with no complaining waded out there and did his thing and back to work . In closing I think if you take care of it they all work fine in the end . It's the butt in the seat that beats it to death that gives machinery manufactures the bad name . Cat has had us wait 2 weeks for parts for product lines that they picked up .
Catsparky. Thanks for the reply. I think the dealer thing is relative to your area. West Side Tractor is the Deere dealer in our part of the world. They have taken good care of us as far as parts and service are concerned. Same with our service at our Case skid steer dealer Burris Eq. Dad had some bad experiences with our local Cat dealer in the past. Haven't done anything major other than parts with them in a long while so can't say one way or the other lately. We aren't a big contractor by any means. But I feel like when I text or call our salesman from Deere and have a question on our Equipment he's great about getting back to me timely. We bought an Atlas Copco breaker for our 160 size machines and I had some hydraulic setting questions one day I was texting him with the questions. He took the time to run a copy of the manual print out page out to the job. He didn't have to do that I thought.
The dealer is relative and most important in every geographical area as to which brand machine one considers purchasing. For instance the Cat dealer in my area has the best service and parts availability with Komatsu coming in second. Deere dealer hardly has a presence. Link Belt has just brought back a dealer to our area after being absent for a couple of years. Kobelco and Case dealer is a madhouse on a good day. The Cat dealer in my area treats me like every other customer regardless of size. My dealer has went above and beyond to help me out. I've spoken to other owners in other areas of the country and their Cat dealer only cares about the big guys. A year ago the sales manager and a salesman for the local Komatsu dealer dropped by the job to introduce themselves. After a short conversation I told the salesman to email me a credit app - never got one. It's just human nature and all the intricacies that come along with being human. Some dealers are better than others in a geographical area in how they treat their customers. Some dealers have big clients that pay all the bills and the profit, they are not concerned with the "little guy". Find a dealer that will fill your needs and be there when you need service or parts, regardless of brand.
As a tech who has worked for an Hitachi dealer and a Cat dealer, I would take a Deere/Hitachi excavator over a Cat without a 2nd thought. The Deere/Hitachi is sooooo much more mechanic friendly than the Cat IMO. Skid steers it'd be Cat all the way. The biggest thing about Cat is I swear some of their engineers and designers ate lead paint chips as children. Some of the things they do when they build their machines makes me think "what idiot thought routing this hose/bolting this part here was a good idea?"
I think it comes down to the dealer and sales reps equally. if the dealer doesn't have the parts and service to back up the sales people, they're not going to attract the best sales people. They'll get the slackers that didn't last at the better dealers. The relationship with the sales people and dealer is much more important than the name or color of the machine.
This is a hard one anymore. There are no hard fast rules for manufactures IMHO, they all make good, bad, and down right ugly tractors. And Dealer support is a big consideration. I can tell you as someone who sold and has experience with the newer Deere's I'd skip buying any...even the excavators (Hitachi as well) built in NC. Also, Deere isn't great at supporting older units with parts. Had a die hard Deere mechanic tell me "Well that loader is 14 years old! Of course they don't have parts in stock" Um...I've got a ton of customers with 20-30 year old loaders. Biggest Deere issue is 'rub through' on wiring and there is a ton of 'overhead' on their new tier 4 final engines that is hitting fuel economy hard. Cat used to build some really heavy old iron. Anymore I'd say they're taking advantage of their reputation, the new stuff is pretty much equal or less heavy duty than others. My other gripe with Cat is I can't tell how to price them. The numbers swing so far from one customer to another it's insane. If you're not shopping your Cat dealer you're overpaying. I guarantee it. Which is also why no one should be 100% any mfg. I like any Japanese made excavator. Case / Linkbelt is a very dependable machine, I really like the Sumatoma (who builds them). Komatsu has been a very good machine as well. Case makes a good 2-4 yard loader. I'd skip the larger ones. Kawasaki also has a very good loader, but like Case dealers are sometimes harder to find. Anything Takeuchi actually builds is very good (not the wheel skids or small loaders which they rebrand). Here is the big thing to keep in mind. Resale is going to be more level than ever due to our wonderful emissions policy. None of these machines will hold up well over seas with poor quality diesel and no mechanics capable of fixing all the electronics on these beasts. That and Cat's more disposable build style is going to make resale flatter than it's ever been across manufactures. My biggest advice is this, ask questions, get quotes from at least one other vendor. If you have a sizable fleet own at least a couple brands to keep everyone honest. Demo equipment BEFORE YOU BUY on new purchases. Don't be afraid to demo other brands...they WANT you to try them even if you don't buy. Honestly it may well shock you. I sold several Case dozers to a rental customer at my old company. He also had two new Cats. His line was 'I'll bring you the Cat when it comes in if you don't like the Case'...and he never took one out to swap. Had he not demo'd one he never would have bought any. Don't assume something is still good. Reminds me of a buddy that sold cars back when Chevy sold the Toyota built Chevy Nova. A guy came in and bought a new Nova off the lot without a test drive. My buddy asked him 'you sure you don't want to drive one first?' Nah, I had a Nova back in the 70's and it was the best car I ever owned. : ) I have more in common with a T-Rex than that car had in common with his new one. And a new Cat D6T isn't Grandpa's D6D. And a new Case 621F isn't the old W-14. I'd tell you I'd buy a J series dozer or loader, but I'd especially steer clear of the first 2-3 years of K's. I also wouldn't buy a Case rubber track loader or a wheel machine made before 2015...nor the 'new' Case mini (at least until it proves me wrong). Kobelco makes a great mini (was a Case until this last few months). The bigger Kobelco's made from 2004-2012 are a mess due to a long story when CNH built them. After that I think they're good machines again. Oh...and I wouldn't own a damn thing Mitsubishi builds or had a hand in building. NOT ONE DAMN THING. Which is why I'm also not a fan of Cat excavators. Ignore that one at your won peril. ; )
Good points. Some of our experience differs from yours. We have 2 Case 450CT loaders and have had great luck with them and our 450 wheel machine. They have quite a few hours and have been good machines. We have also had pretty good luck with parts on our Deere and Hitachi excavators honestly. We have a ZX80 and ZX160-3. We also have a Deere 160D and 200D. I think that again goes back to dealer support. Which I totally understand. My biggest question was specifically geared toward the service life I guess out of Cats stuff because Cat people will tell you it is so much better. I know an old D6D or D7G would run a ton of hours with minimal breakdowns, or an old 977L. I was more wondering I guess if the new Caterpillar stuff is still built heavier or they just do a good job of putting that perception in the market place. I will give them credit that Cat used machines command a premium at auctions. I just have not had much experience with newer Caterpillar stuff. Our last Cat dozer was a D5C and like I said the last Cat hoe we had was an E70B (Mitsu) and a early 90s 215.
In the area I'm in, Deere/Hitachi excavators outnumber Cat and Komatsu combined by probably 6:1. From my personal experience working on both Cat and Hitachi as well as talking with operators, I firmly believe Deere/Hitachi is the superior excavator.
Edit: I meant to say ZX160 - 1 sorry.
Correct, the 400's were good machines, especially the 2nd & 3rd series. The Alpha's have not been good, hopefully are getting better. Dealer makes a big difference, no doubt about it regardless of brand. I've seen places where there are tons of a machine that you couldn't give away in our area. : ) See where your machines are built on the Deere/Hitachi. Also the final Tier4's have not been very good. I have a customer that owns a 'substantial' number and they're not buying any more due to endless issues. As for Cat you have to understand that a lot of people are buying Cat machines due to a (I'd argue false) perception of what they're buying. Parts and dealer support are part of it, as people know there are Cat dealers most everywhere in the country...and most of the world. So you're competing for tractors with buyers around the world in these larger auctions. You also have people that know nothing about tractors there, and they are biding on the perception that Cat is the best. If you ask 20 people who've never owned a tractor 'What type of backhoe or dozer should I buy?' 99% will say "A CAT!" Just like if you ask what semi to buy....a Peterbuilt...they're the best. As I've talked about before, I see resale flattening as these new tractors won't work in a lot of the world with sulfur diesel and dirty fuels. You look at the newer Cat numbers they're not much better than older, higher hour machines. One other thing that has perpetuated Cat's resale numbers and following...you can put a lot of money in one (historically) and typically people pay a premium for it. Dump a $25k engine or transmission in an old Cat loader and the price jumps "this one just had a reman engine put in it last year fellas!". Put that same motor in most other brands and no one cares "We expected it to have a running motor". That's made choosing to repair Cats easier for owners. Where other machines they'd just park them or part them out. But don't forget....
Sadly, probably a accountant or a efficiency expert whom has never held a wrench in his or her life.
That's just it old-iron-habit. A number of years ago I had to pull a rear swing gearbox on Cat 375 hoe (or maybe it was a 385?). Had to pull pretty much every freaking steel pipe off the main control valve plus a bunch of other stuff. Hydraulic oil mess and all that aside it was a PITA. The center area of the frame has very little room so you spend a lot of time hanging down in a hole. Now jump onto an equivillent sized Hitachi (like and 850). Jump down and stand between the hump hoses, back to the boom foot. Unhook a couple hoses, unbolt a swing gearbox and yank it out with a crane. Takes about an hour. Same with a Cat skid steer. Whose bright idea was it on the D series to design it in such a way that it is easier to pull the battery out to change the engine oil filter?
Yea, we don't have Peterbilt trucks either so I guess we are really fools Nothing we own is Tier 4 yet. Kind of scared to update anything because of the Tier 4 BS. Thanks or the replies guys.
Like I said in another post, we're loosing all of our people who grew up on equipment. Even manufacturers are having this problem.
In a few short years when the salvage yards are full of what is todays new equipment hopefully some young techie will build a add on box that is smart enough to replace the current equipment's brain box and make them run again.
I hope so but I'm not optimistic. The manufacturers have guarded against it by making so many different models and years with so many interdependent variables it would probably not be worth it for a techie to try to find his way through all that muddy water.
Megasquirt for diesels
Caterpillar is NOT the best equipment brand. Their new equipment leaves an awful lot to be desired. They have lost the reliability and serviceability they once had. Having worked for both Caterpillar and John Deere, I've seen the good and bad of both. Caterpillar does not have the strength, the speed or the overall toughness of John Deere. Caterpillar is very much so over engineered, over assembled, over priced and completely overrated. John Deere on the other hand, while also a bit over priced, at least lives up to the hype and definitely gives you what you pay for. They are far easier to work on and get back to the field and working again. Cat could certainly learn quite a bit from other manufacturers such as John Deere, Komatsu, Hitachi and Terex.
I think sales numbers would disagree with your assessment. Other brands have made Cat step up to the plate though. Japanese excavators comes to mind. I think most people would prefer less electronics, emissions and other crap on new machines no matter what brand they are. Just more to go wrong and more of a pain to fix yourself.
Terex Let's go dig in solid rock for a couple years and you can tell me what machines you want on the job . volcanic soils might change the mindset. not only talking big machines little ones to. There is two manufactures prevalent on this god for saken rock I'm on at the moment . They both yellow . No other manufactures can even come close . The orange ones are strong but they have little to no existence here . Antler stuff ? it can't find food here . You may disagree and all good but when its time to get it done we know who to call !!!!! We buy what we buy for a reason .
Sales numbers in this area indicate that Cat is a very distant third, possibly even fourth. John Deere and Komatsu are neck and neck for first and second. Kobelco has a very strong showing, as well. Cat is not a very common brand around here, but, where you see more of the Cat name is on the sticker with Calvin from Calvin and Hobbs peeing on Cat.
Show some clear proof of your claims instead of just making a statement like it's the gospel. I don't know if sales figures of heavy equipment for specific regions are even available to the public?? Kobelco being close or higher in sales numbers to Cat in Wyoming is laughable.
I've lived here my entire life primarily. I've been a heavy truck and equipment mechanic for nearly 40 years. I was working for John Deere when Deere debuted the D model motor grader and later the G series with cross slopes and a choice of joystick or standard controls. Roughly that same time cat introduced the M with the philosophy that you can have any controls you want as long as it's joystick. That toppled them from the top spot and Deere took over. Cat excavators are not very well thought of around here and whether you choose to believe it or not, Kobelco is more plentiful here. Volvo, Deere, Komatsu, Hitachi all out rank cat around here. I couldn't care less if you don't believe that and as you don't live here, I never will care. Your opinion is just that. I've seen it first hand.
Is D-8 Bob back cause I think he is !!!!
Maybe Bob is back, I don't know? Terex TS32B has made 3 posts in 5 years so not the most active on the forum. Coming on the forum with a bold statement that Cat is a distant 3rd in sales in a US territory without any evidence to support it is all just hearsay. Provide something to back up your claims. Cat being 6th most popular in excavators is especially hard to believe. As far as parts support, especially for older machines no one comes close to Cat! It's a big reason why Cat continues to have the market share. As far as the best machines operationally would be a much more useful discussion.
very true . Different manufacturers make great machines and that's why this forum is so good . Kobelco makes great rigs. Deere makes great machines , Komatsu makes great machines . I love me some old International equipment BUT!!!!