Hi folks, I'm new here, and pretty green to equipment operation for anything bigger than a tractor. Here's my situation, and maybe some of you can offer your thoughts based on experience. I have a 30 acre farm that I'm in the middle of converting from chemical row crop (corn/bean) to organic, or better said "sustainable" pasture (for beef) and market garden farm. My gound is really light, with very low organic matter, so I've started a composting operation. What I do is have leaves delivered from nearby towns and mix them with a reasonable nitrogen source and compost, then spread the following year. It's going to be a long slow haul to get the O.M. up to near where it was originally when my great Grandfather stopped tilling it with horses, and the renters took over 40 years ago. For equipment I use during the composting, I have a couple of late 1960's loader tractors in the 70 hp range, (Moline 670 super gas, and Allis 180 diesel), and of course the compost turner. The compost turner is self propelled, and straddles an 80" windrow. Also have a 1 ton stake body pto dump with 4 foot high sides. I've been doing this for a couple years. Last year, I made about 300 yards of compost, this year it looks like I'll get about 500 yards. I hope to get up to about 2000 yards/year. Basically, the town guys dump the leaves at a location on the farm where they have an easy-in, easy-out and can't get stuck in the sand. Then, I load the leaves into my stake body dump and take them out to the field and dump them into a windrow. I turn and rewet the windrow periodically with the compost turner. The next year, I load the finished compost into a manure spreader and spread it. Moving the leaves and nitrogen source takes a good bit of time, and I'm afraid is asking a lot from old iron, especially if I'm successful at eventually getting up in the 2000 yard/year range. Also, neither of my big (to me) tractors give enough height with the loader all the way up to load my stake dump easily. I have to roll the bucket back to level before I can back out or else I'd tear the sides off the truck body. Building a loading ramp isin't a good solution for now, since I load from different locations on the farm depending on where the fellows dump off the raw materials. The buckets on my tractors are not that large (I'm guessing maybe half a yard), and I'm afraid I'd kill the tractors if I put a bigger bucket on it. There's just not built to be real loaders. I'm considering if I should purchase an old wheel loader to do the moving around with. I know very little other than what I've read here about these beasts. Since my day job is funding this farm thing, I'll be looking at older, cheaper machines. There is an elderly gentleman that lives nearby that has an old Case - maybe a W-7 gas unit that he keeps in good shape, and uses reguarly in his one man stone/sand delivery business. The last time I got some stone from him, I told him I might be interested in his loader if he decided to upgrade or sell out. He said that at 83, he wasn't going to upgrade. He keeps his stuff in good order. Buying something from a good local fellow who just has no need for it anymore always seems to me to be a good deal for the buyer and the seller, as opposed to taking a bigger chance at an auction. While thinking and hopefully learning a bit here, I thought that maybe I might be better served with an older backhoe. In the future, I will have a basement and footings to dig, and I did find a borrowed hoe pretty handy once when I was moving some logs for my sawmill. Also, I'd like to dig a couple small ponds around the farm. As I said before, I have light sandy ground. Clay and much are not an issue, except that some of the nitrogen sources I get to mix with the leaves can get pretty heavy and mucky, but even then, the ground I'm working on is pretty stable sand. I realize for all but the compost operation, I'd probably be money ahead to hire a guy that knows what he's doing to do my work (basement, ponds, etc.), but I'm an adventurous kind of guy, and love to learn a little about doing new things. One of the things that's a real pain when loading with my tractor/FEL is shifting. I used a friends little Kubota with FEL to spread some stone a couple years ago, and the shuttle thing was just great. I think that shuttle and power steering are a couple requirements for me if I'm going to get another piece of equipment to maintain. Although I'm not a mechanic, I was a mechanic on a submarine years ago, and do most of my own maintenance/repairs. Based upon my budget, I don't expect that to change. I'm not scared off by having to rebuild a hydraulic cylinder, or replace a timing chain, etc.. But that loader looks pretty big compared to working on cars, trucks and farm tractors of the size I play with. Little brother is a welder - he comes in handy! Whatever I get, I think I'm going to consider it to be a machine I'll probably have for the next 10 years. So, the availability of parts, and relatively easy repairs is very important. I have a little 40 Hp diesel tractor (AC-160) that although I just love it, it's basically an orphan - Built in France for Allis Chalmers. Parts are tough to find. I won't make that mistake again. Budget is important. I can't reasonably see me getting anything that isin't a pile of junk for under $4,000. However, no matter how nice it is, I can't go over $8,000. Again, I don't mind something 40 years old, as long as it's not junk, and I can maintain it. If this budget is unreasonable, I'll just keep doing it the way I am until I find the deal of a lifetime, or make more money to spend on the farm. So, now that you know where I'm coming from, here are a couple questions. Since most of my use will be for loading, is a backhoe anywhere near a loader? Can a loader dig ponds, a basement etc in light, sandy ground? Would one or the other be easier/cheaper to buy/maintain? Any specific makes/models that you recommend I keep an eye out for? I love equipment that didn't change much over the model years, and is pretty straight forward to fix. I tend to keep stuff for a long time. I'm 46, and still have my first vehicle ('66 ford) - in fact I drove it around the farm a couple weeks ago. That Ford takes the same oil filter as my '67 and 89 fords - Love that! I'll finally shut up now, and listen to what you have to say.
Hi Scottyboy, you sure put alot of effort into that, the least I can do is acknowledge that effort I think you have posted in the right section, a TLB would probably be the better overall purchase for your needs. A loading shovel would be better for dealing with the leaves and loading and would probably dig you pond at a push but a TLB will be more versatile IMHO. As for makes, models and cost, I'll let those with more experience chip in. :drinkup
I'll second the vote for a tlb. There's much more that you can do with a tlb than just loading operations. IMO shuttle shift is a must as is 4wd. To help with your 2000 yard/year goal, start calling the surround horse stables. Chances are they're already paying a dumpster company to haul away manure. Heck, you could even make a side business if you pick up a roll off truck and a few containers.
Thanks for the replies folks. I did go on and on. Sometimes I like talking about the farm! My unexperienced guess is that I'd spend 20 hours loading for every one hour using the hoe. Do you folks still think I'd be better served with a TLB? Yes, I have been in contact with horse stables, and have soime offers to take away the poo for money. However, the farm is under a nutrient management plan, and I can't take on too much phosphorus. I'm real high on Phosphorus now due to years of spreading chicken manure to get the nitrogen without consideration to the phosphorus that was building up. Therefore, I'm using leaves to increase the other nutrients I'm low on for now. Help educate me to why I'd need 4wd. Yes, I'd love to have it, my stake body dump is 4wd, and I've never had to lock them in.
If you ever have to back up a hill with a full bucket, 4wd is your friend. Even on level ground when you're driving into a pile you get much better forward traction as you raise the loaded bucket into the pile (as you're scooping) and transfer the weight onto the front tires. It's much easier to fill the bucket. What you do in 20 hours on a 2wd machine might get done in 15 hrs with a 4wd machine.
I see your buget, and I see your current equipment list and to get what your going to need you might have to do a re-alignment of equipment. Trade your ac 180 & MM 670 in for a used 4x4, shuttle trans loader tractor. Something like a case ih 5120 - 5250, they might cost you 20k, but you might get that out of your 2 tractors plus your 8k. I dunno its going to depend ont he dealer, especially with the mm, prolly arent going to get rich selling that one.
Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, now that you mention it, I remember being amazed at how eager the little toy 4wd kubota I borrowed would push into a stone pile. It would easily push into and lift more than it had the mass to safely carry (with me in the seat, anyway). I'll consider the idea of trading in my old iron, but that would be a total shift in thinking. I like old iron that I can easily work on, and is pretty cheap. I'm not real sure I can fully turn around my thinking on this, but I do appreciate your pointing it out. Not a big fan of old Molines?
Hello Scottyboy, As Rob said, your post #1 was indeed a good read... a very articulate composition... :thumbsup Although I seldom give advice on this forum, other than the fact that I think a JD 750c was one of the best dozers made... And, although a TLB is not one of my most favored machines, I think I would go along with Rob and others again. A decent FWD, Tractor/Loader/Backhoe, with a shuttle shift would probably give you the most all around versatility you could get from just one machine. Just my thoughts too. OCR
Hay Scottyboy, Ya have been givensome good info here. One more , Ya might consider a 3pt hitch backhoe on a nice loader tractor. Not near as good as a mounted backhoe. But in 10 minutes or less the ho is off and you can use the 3 pt lift for any farm equiptment. Just another thought to muddy your waters so to speak. Cheers
Scottyboy, I know exactly where you are coming from, my brother and I have a 45 acre horse farm, we board horses. We have a lot of manure/shavings that we have to dispose of. I have a JD manure spreader ground driven that we hook behind our 52 Ferguson TO30. We have a Kubota 3430 with a Woods 1016 loader attachment. This takes absolutely forever to spread to the point we can't keep up. Now I have a 81 Mack tandem dump truck but the Kubota will not lift high enough to dump in the bed. I did not like the idea of a loading ramp. I was fortunate enough to bring the EX200 home for a couple of years:cool2, and I could load the manure spreader with 2 buckets or load the Mack and haul it off. Work needed the excavator back so I got a deal in a 955K track loader. It does it all, but you can't just drive it all over the farm. Now, where am I going with this? I think a TLB will be one piece of equipment that will satisfy every task you need. You can dig, load, clear, albeit not as fast as a track loader, excavator, etc. And you can drive around, however I strongly recommend a 4-in-1 bucket and that should be the only piece of equipment you need. And by the way we have a 66 Ford truck my Dad bought in '67, and I have an 89 F-250 Diesel.
Thanks again for the thoughtful replies. It sounds like even though I'll mostly use whatever I get for loading, most of you folks are still recommending a TLB. I'll have to weigh your experience pretty heavily. Davidd, I've though about the attachment, but they seem to run nearly as much as an old loader. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've seen them in the 3-5K range, used. I ain't buying nuthin' new (except a new car for my wife every 200K miles) unless I win the lottery, and I don't play. Red Bank, yes, you can feel my pain. BTW, I also have a TO-30 that I inhereted from my dad. Sweet little tractor, but I don't exercise it as often as I should. It's kinda special to me. Something I had considered was to buy an old portable material elevator (gas or pto) and use it to load the dump truck. Might save a lot of time by not having to raise the loader arms so high on each trip. Might not work at all. Suppose I have a pile of 100 cubic yards of compost I want to load onto trucks. How much difference in time would you folks expect the two machines (Loader versus TLB) to take to do this job? Assume all other things are equal. I haven't heard anyone talk about price differences between old loaders and old TLB's. Am I wrong, or are old loaders about 2/3 the price of old TLB's. Yeah, I know it varies, but try to think of a make/model loader and a TLB that you think would be decent repairable machines for my small operation, and use that as a guide. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. From my own field, I realize how difficult it can be to offer advice to wanna-be's. There's so much more knowledge and experience needed that you just can't give someone in a few quick sentences!
Scott, it isnt that I'm not a fan of molines, its just that its been awile since they made one, 40 years maybe, and the parts availability isn't going to get any better. Thats why I said that you might not get alot for it, but then again you might. For all I know it could be in pristine contition.
Thanks for the reply Stumpjumper. Yes, it's been a while since they rolled off the line. Fortunatley, my neighbor was a moline mechanic for years and years, and has a bunch of them himself. He's on speed dial on my cell phone! Yes, it's in good shape with under 3,000 hours, and I'm the second owner. My neighbor has maintained it since it left the dealership.
Scottyboy, I think the reason most are recommending the TLB is actually simple. You mentioned in your original post of the desire to obtain a wheel loader to load your material, which would be an excellent choice and speed up your production considerably. But it is what it is; a "front" bucket loader. A good operator can make one do a number of things, but it's still a front loader. With a TLB, your basically getting the same thing. One's just articulated steer and the other is front axle steer, but they are equally efficient loading the material you describe. But with the TLB and its backhoe, working on and maintaining a farm, digging and cleaning out your ponds, digging an annoying stump out of the ground, improving a water drainage ditch...you get the picture. The TLB will give you a more versatile machine for all around farm use than a wheel loader alone.
Thanks ATCO, You answered my question well when you said "they are equally efficient loading the material you describe". Given that statement, I can see why everyone's on the TLB bandwagon. For some reason (maybe the bucket size?) I was thinking a loader might do a loading job twice as fast as a TLB in the same horse power range. Again, thanks to all who have contributed to my education here.
On top of what ATCO advises, there are far more TLBs in the field than wheel loaders making it much more likely for you to find a TLB in working order at your desired price than a wheel loader. Any wheel loader you would purchase for $8000 is likely to demand a lot of mechanical attention.
OK, Now I'm officially looking for a TLB. The only way I'll take a wheel loader, is if it falls out of the sky, or off a truck while it's riding by. However, even then, it might need a bit of work to get going after a fall. I'm in no hurry, as I realize the importance of doing a good search, especially since this is not my area of knowledge. I notice TLB's come in various horse powers. Any suggestions? I know I like the fuel savings of my 40 Hp diesel tractor. Does a lower HP (like 40-60) have what I would want? Lets talk about age and repairability. In general, is there atime frame when they added computers? If so, am I better off to stay with something that is pre-computer, or don't the computer parts give problems as the macnines age? I watched a few videos (true sign of an amateur), and I already see no need to buy a TLB without a 4-n-1 bucket, shuttle, and maybe a cab. I'll wait or increase my budget before settling. I'm looking for recommendations for models and years. After looking for a while on line at different TLB's, it seems that my budget of 8K max might need an upgrade - there's not a lot out there that looks like it might be a good long term machine for me, so lets try a ceiling of 12K, and see if that brings me a little more chance of getting a nice rig for the farm. Again, I appreciate your help.
I forgot to add 4WD to the list.
Congratulations on making a decision. :thumbsup ( no I wasnt being sarcastic ) You now need to narrow the field a little more. I suggest next that you look at who your nearest dealers are. This will make a big impression on what make of machine you look for. Its not much fun finding a great ******* for a steal then realising having got it home that the nearest source of assistance and spares is 1000mls away. Good luck, keep us informed. :drinkup
Keep in mind that if you´re only doing light duty operations, a lower hp tractor is going to be more fuel efficient. A bigger tractor is more efficient for heavy loading and digging operations. Quite often, you´ll spend more time and burn more fuel if you´re trying to make a smaller machine do the work of a larger machine. Depending on what´s available in your price range, I would seriously consider machines that are 80-100hp. I´m not saying that´s what you MUST have, but IMO having the extra grunt available when you need it sure makes work work more enjoyable.
I've done a little searching, and have found I have a Cat dealer about 15 miles away (and another 4 locations within 50 miles with the same owner), a JD dealer about 35 miles away, and a Case dealer about 20 miles away. Terex is well over 100 miles out. Without knowing beans from bull about these machines, it looks like a cat would be best supported by local dealerships. There are many other places that handle JD, but most of them are farm dealers, not construction dealers. Now, armed with this, what specific models do you folks like for mu situation?
thoughts and ideas? Hello again, Scottyboy. JFYI... A lot of the JD farm dealers handle the construction model parts too. Seems like many of the parts are the same number... and usually cheaper. OCR