I have an old 46 model No. 311 Adams motor grader it has an IH TD-9 motor and Oliver 80 Stranded Transmission with a high/low EOA 35 and because it is all gear driven the mo-board can turn around and around without stopping. Well the peddle breaks are hydraulic but they don't work. Eng s/n TDCBM-3828 engine replaced with UDCBM-7395 has transmission s/n 4328H EOA s/n 69045 Because I can turn my mo-board completely backwards I thought I'd try my hand at bladding backwards. OMG I'm not that good going forward yet but that was other worldly stuff there. I was a gluten for punishment because I was on an incline and it had a dip at the end of the driveway. That can give a guy a headache thinking all backwards. Just wondering if anyone ever got good at bladding backwards?
I commonly back drag short distances. Never tried turning the moldboard around and going backward cutting. A modern articulating grader would be much better at it than your rigid framed machine!!!! An elderly friend of mine that ran a blade for 40 years decided one Spring he would turn the moldboard around and use the back side of the blade going forward. Just wanted to smooth rutted roads. Destroyed the nuts and threads on the cutting edge bolts. Had to remove most of them with a cutting torch. Not such a great idea after all......
I think it was on here a few years ago where a very accomplished operator who worked at Cat explained the blade will turn 360 deg's for a reason. It can be turned around to grade in reverse. Said some ditch cleaning worked better turning the blade around and going in reverse. Talking with equipment operators they generally say the finish grader requires the most skill of all machines. It takes years to get proficient with most machines but a grader can be very intimidating with a multitude of controls staring at you.
I read on an Adams brochure (somewhere) an advertisement showing the ability to rotate the blade all the way around which gave me the idea to blade backwards. Yet, because one can doesn't mean one should; I can see now there is ample room for catastrophic damage to the machine and the project, so I must agree if the operator is not properly qualified bladding backwards is not a very good idea. I would have to go study the way the Mo-board is attached but if memory serves (and that seal is starting to leak too) but I think bladding backwards would put more shear and tension stress on the gear housing that rotates circle side to side - I'm thinking that is not a good thing. The stress should be under tension from the eye-bolt & U-bolt on the nose. Therefore, I think only under extreme conditions should backwards bladding be attempted and by well qualified operator and then only in a light application. Right tools for the right jobs. Thanks for your input everyone it was most insightful and made me rethink my stance on bladding backwards.
Suggest you look in the archives on here for anything from Randy Krieg and/or backwards grading. He is listed as a test pilot/operator at Caterpillars Tuscon proving grounds in Arizona. All Those Teeth Remember guys the circle has teeth 360 degrees. Those back teeth aren’t for looks, they’re made to be used. The practice of finishing a cul-de-sac in reverse or maybe even getting it close (my choice) makes great sense if you’re not running an all wheel drive machine. The forces created by the moldboard angle and laterally moving material over comes the front tires traction coefficient many times. It only takes about 60 seconds to turn it around. I can turn our 16 foot moldboard on our 14H around in about 70 seconds, just over a minute. That time includes the time spent pulling the pin and repositioning the linkbar. I always do it on the right side, I put the pin in the far right hole, swing the drawbar, circle and moldboard up beside the machine with the moldboard facing straight up at the sky, circle the moldboard clockwise and side-shift the left end out over the top of the right front tire completely retracting the cylinder (H Series), then retract the left lift cylinder, extend the right lift cylinder, keep rotating clockwise and retracting the centershift cylinder at the same time. It’s all simultaneous motion. This brings the right end of the moldboard (soon to become the left) under the S bend in the main frame while the left end (soon to become the right) is rolling right down behind and beside the right front tire. As soon as I get the moldboard back under the main frame I reposition the linkage if necessary. If the machine is equipped with grade/slope control then the cable to the rotation sensor has to be specially routed or it will get torn right in half. Every machine I operate I take the time to reroute the cable so that it’s possible to turn the circle and moldboard around. The picture below shows the way I generally park the machine at night; circle and moldboard facing back with the tires off the ground. This position exposes the front circle drive teeth so we can apply grease every day (like the book says). These are the teeth that are being used 99% of the time we’re working. Every couple days I scrap off the old dirty grease using a drywall spatula and every couple weeks I wash the teeth with solvent. This positioning also gets the weight off the tires at night. Don’t want any flat spots in the tires come morning. Many times we get in and have to start finishing to hubs first thing in the morning. In the last training class I taught I made it manditory to graduate. They had to be able to proficiently reposition the linkage, clean the top of the moldboard using the linkage, pull a back slope and park the machine at night with the moldboard facing back. In the other pictures, which are dark, but if you look closely you can see the moldboard is turned around on the 16M. This works great for squeegeeing the water on top of the ice and filling the small holes and accelerating the freeze time. You can rub the ice (snow & water mixture) and not cut into it. Turning the moldboard around on this 16M with a 2 foot extension requires a little more caution and it helps if you run the front tires up on a pile, this makes it easier to swing the moldboard extension under the steps. It would be real easy to tear the steps right off the machine if you don’t know what you’re doing. That applies to any grader not just the 16M. I also turn the moldboard around for finishing away from bridge abutments and will explain this more in detail later. I turn it around and articulate for cleaning some wet ditches also. Like I said they put those teeth there for a reason. I will photograph this entire procedure step by step when I get time and post it. I will also add more to this thread in general, but right now I have to get ready to travel again. This part is for all you younger guys that like adventure; I’m actually on my two weeks R&R from the Chevron project right now, but got a phone call yesterday morning. We were just awarded a hazardous cleanup project off the Northern coast of Alaska. It’s an old “Defense Early Warning” radar site. So I have to go get baseline blood work done today then spend the next 4 days in training, yeap right through the weekend so that we can be ready to fly back to Deadhorse the first of next week. We are going to haul the material 50 miles across the sea ice back to Prudhoe Bay where it will be put in special containment. I look at this as another great adventure, which I get to be a part of and the pay is fantastic (so is the food). They don’t call me to go on these details because they like the way I look or the things I say, they call me for one reason and one reason only; because I can operate a motor grader. My father told me over 30 years ago while I was riding in a grader with him and watching his every move, “Get good on one of these son and you will never have to look for a job”. That statement has rung true so many times in my life that I’ve lost count. It’s a great career! Don’t ever pass up the chance to get on one. Regards, Randy Attached Files: a"> DCP_0007 (Small).JPG File size: 48.1 KB Views: 5,023 DCP_0033 (Small).JPG File size: 55.8 KB Views: 5,022 DCP_0034 (Small).JPG File size: 54.5 KB Views: 5,030 16M Reverse Moldboard (Small).JPG File size: 33.4 KB Views: 5,027 16M Sweegy (Small).JPG File size: 27.2 KB Views: 5,009 Last edited: Mar 4, 2009 Randy Krieg , Mar 4, 2009 Report
Took me long enough But unfortunately I don’t get to spend as much time in a grader anymore. We just started this road realignment project, this section I’m presently working on is just the road to our water pump where we load the water truck, and it’s an old powerline right of way that hasn’t seen a motor grader in a while. Since we’ll be hauling several hundred loads across this over the next couple months I told the owners if I can take water from your lake I’ll rebuild your road. Some of the ditches are wet and some…well; I’ll just let you look at the pictures. This is nearly the same procedure just done for differing reasons. I hate bouncing my tires over boulders and it never fails they find their way under your tandem tires no matter how careful you are and when they do!!! Have you ever seen the guy waving the checkered flag at the end of a Nascar race, :beatsme well that’s about what the end of the moldboard in the ditch looks when one of these rocks maneuvers it’s way under the tandem tires. Not nearly as glorious as the checkered flag, more like Black Flagged. These alluvial materials are very common in this area and trust me it makes great road base it’s just a little tricky to deal with. It’s free draining and non frost susceptible, which is extremely critical in this climate. I’ve been dealing with this stuff for years so I use the grader as a mobile screening plant, processing machine and finishing machine. I start out dry so I can shake out the goodies and comb out the bones, then once I hide the junk I start processing with water. I do one side at a time so I’m not overwhelmed with rocks and brush. I've been having computer/internet problems so I'm amazed I got this up, I'll try to finish with the other shots tonight....... Randy Attached Files: a"> Picture 013 (Small).jpg File size: 75.9 KB Views: 3,462 Picture 015 (Small).jpg File size: 86.7 KB Views: 3,481 Picture 017 (Small).jpg File size: 71.9 KB Views: 3,462 Picture 018 (Small).jpg File size: 81.8 KB Views: 3,449 Picture 012 (Small).jpg File size: 79.2 KB Views: 3,465
The Rest of the Story Okay what I originally promised to put on here is how I turn the moldboard 180 degrees. So here are the pictures and a brief description. I do the vast majority of my backsloping and ditch cleaning on the right side so I always put the sideshift anchor in the left mounting holes. This SS mount position is very important for safely clearing the right front tire during this 180 procedure. To perform this really well there are three important positioning functions which must take place before you ever even ground the moldboard to pull the pin. The first two are vital if you ever plan to do this with the moldboard sitting on new asphalt. That’s why I kept trying to perfect this since I am constantly having to reposition the linkbar for shouldering while sitting on day old pavement. First; tip the moldboard all the way back which brings the board up close to the circle and drawbar, this puts the drawbar at a negative angle when the moldboard is grounded and extends the lift cylinder rods further out of the barrel. This is important or you’ll run out of left lift cylinder travel before the linkbar reaches alignment with the far right pin position. Second; extend the centershift cylinder all the way to the right before grounding the moldboard. Again you’ll be using this cylinder’s retracting travel when you’re repositioning the linkage. (see photos) If you don’t extend it before grounding then you won’t be able to retract it when you’re repositioning the linkage, things get really ugly when you don’t use the centershift simultaneously with the lift cylinders. Better yet you can just leave the lift cylinders in float and just retract the centershift cylinder to reposition the linkage. Third; I sideshift all the way to the right before grounding the moldboard and pulling the pin. This is so I can use centershift to bring the moldboard off the ground and not dig the left corner of the moldboard in to the ground. Remember you don’t have any left lift cylinder travel to speak of once the linkage repositioning is done. So the quickest way to get the moldboard up off the ground is centershift. You just got done retracting the centershift part way during repositioning the pin now you extend again. Extending the centershift cylinder now causes the lift cylinders to swing sideways through an arc. The lift cylinders swinging through an arc lifts the drawbar, circle & moldboard (DCM) up and picks the moldboard right off the ground. As soon as the moldboard clears the ground I start circling clockwise and retracting the right lift cylinder. About the time the centershift becomes fully extended I switch to extending the left lift cylinder while still circling clockwise and retracting the right cylinder. Once the right is fully retracted and the left is fully extended I continue circling clockwise until the right end of the moldboard is nearly touching the ground, at this point I start sideshifting left and slowly cracking the circle clockwise still, this keeps the right end of the moldboard (backside) close to the ground as the left end extends right out over top of the right front tire. Once the moldboard is side shifted left (actually all the way forward in this position) I simultaneously keep circling clockwise retracting the left lift cylinder and extending the right lift cylinder. You have to time your circle rotation with you cylinder extension and retraction perfectly or you’ll dig the moldboard in the ground or worse, get hung up in the step/ladder. Done right you can clear the step, ground and right front tire simultaneously. Done wrong you can take out a headlight, tear off a step, blow a tire and tear up some ground/asphalt!!! As soon as the moldboard is turned 180 and back under the main frame I fully retract the centershift cylinder so I can extend it this time as I reposition the linkage back to center or the second hole. Takes me about 70 seconds to complete this maneuver on a 14G or H with a 16 foot moldboard. As I stated earlier all my students two years ago had to complete this maneuver before they could get their training certificate. :cool2 Attached Files: a"> Picture 026 (Small).jpg File size: 70.2 KB Views: 3,352 Picture 027 (Small).jpg File size: 65.6 KB Views: 3,363 Picture 025 (Small).jpg File size: 80 KB Views: 3,334 Picture 024 (Small).jpg File size: 82.3 KB Views: 3,355 Picture 023 (Small).jpg File size: 80.7 KB Views: 3,449
The Rest of the Story cont. Here's the last two pictures. Watch that headlight! Attached Files: a"> Picture 021 (Small).jpg File size: 76.9 KB Views: 3,339 Picture 022 (Small).jpg File size: 55.5 KB Views: 3,316
Wow! Thanks for the education. Great pictures and very informative post. It looks like you have put an hour or two behind a blade. Again thank you for your expert advice and illuminating narrative. I never ran a grader before but found this one a few years back that had a bad case of the-all-overs. When I went to look at it, it looked to be a big pass. Then I seen a faded unit number "ARC 971" ARC or Alaska Road Commission which was pre DOT, Department of Transportation. With that knowledge I did a little digging and found the 1946 the Adams was purchased by the Territory of Alaska. However, I believe the contracts were drawn up in 1944. The Adams spent most of its formative years between Hope, Seward, Homer and Whittier (a top secret Naval port back then) on the Keni Peninsula. When Alaska became a State in 1959 the Adams was given a title and it was transferred to the State of Alaska. In 1969, the title was transferred into privet hands. It was most likely the Adams was originally sold as military surplus because Alaska's infrastructure was woefully inadequate until the mid 50's. The S/N TDCBM-3828 (TD9) where M (I believe) denotes military I forgot what the CB meant. Adams original color was a lighter yellow than Caterpillar but because this equipment was earmarked for a State, Territory or municipality it was painted this pumpkin vomit orange At first I thought this is just an old tired piece of iron then I thought the history behind this equipment is more important and that's what needs to be preserved so here I am. Last Adams ever made this is a better representation of the Adams Color
Just posting what an experienced operator can do. I've never run a grader.
I've know a lot of dozer drivers who could only run a smooth pass by putting the blade in float, put the machine in reverse and let the engine go to full throttle. Depending on the grader, the pinion gear is on the inside of the circle and pulling in reverse might, if the circle is not adjusted properly, get looser. The other issue with rotating the blade all the way around is that a well used grader will have a well worn ring gear in the area where the blade usually is run at. Turn the blade all the way around and now you have unworn teeth of the ring gear possibly running tight or loose depending on the manufacturer of the grader.
I second what John C said. I'll add that a grader is designed for forward work. Randy stressed keeping the teeth in the circle lubed daily and the circle clean. He had a special case circumstance with ice roads, but still grading forward. Cleaning up cul-de-sacs with a grader IMO is done with helpers and other equipment. I carry a rake, shovel and a multi pronged fork for clean-up purposes. It helps to get out of the machine once in a while, (especially the older ones), and use some different muscles while clearing your head and a walk around machine inspection. That said it dosen't hurt to rotate the blade 360 and observe the condition of the table circle interaction. I would suggest a man on the ground to watch for problems while you do that. Good luck with your find!!!
Working for Cat I think Randy is well aware of what the machines are capable of doing. For some applications turning the blade around and going backwards does the best job. He wasn't talking about using a 40 year old worn out grader. Just showing what a modern well maintained grader can do.
Maybe Randy Kraig can do that. Just how many other grader operators do you think should even try that kind of stuff. Also remember he was working as much for the marketing department as the engineering department. If I saw someone on my spread trying to grade backwards, I'd have to inform him that he was too good for my operation and let him know I'd give him a good recommendation for his next employment.
I'm sure there are other operators that are more than capable of grading backwards. There has to be tens of thousands of grader operators in N. America and even worldwide. I don't think Randy Krieg is suggesting grading miles of ditches going in reverse, just showing some jobs can be done better/easier in reverse. Dismissing Randy Krieg because he worked for Cat would be like dismissing Nige because he worked for Cat. Randy wrote the H series applications guide and was involved in the development of the M series. There are some guys that can do amazing things with excavators too. I don't know why anyone would get rid of an operator that was too good.
I wonder if it might be useful if there is no place to turn around and you would rather be getting work done in both directions than backing to the starting place with the blade lifted.
Back dragging with the blade on float. I was told once that if I was going to do that, the company could have saved a lot of money and got a steel beam to drag around instead of a tractor. In the same breath, I was told that back dragging wears the back of the blade unnecessarily. A little back dragging is OK, but the front of the blade is the business end. That being said, I have tried grading backwards, but seeing how your rear wheels are meant to stabilize your machine, and you need to look ahead to see what you're grading....... I sometimes back drag extra material, but I like going forward not back
For sure, however with the advent of the articulated machine, (which CAT was very late coming around to), turning around is not much of a problem. My grading experience started in the Rocky Mountains west of Denver in 1972. Park County consisted of two terraine types, twisty narrow roads in mountain subdivisions with no standards before county take over and wide open South Park known for straight roads and snow drifts. Austin Western was what I learned on. CAT knuckle busters were favored in the park. I ended up with experience on both, but never bladed backwards. Fast forward 25 yrs and I find myself taking care of roads in Canyon Country. The old tractor and rear blade ain't doing the job, so when I find that then 30 yr. old 570A sitting on the trade in lot I jump on it, probably too fast. So eleven years later that "worn out" machine has paid for itself and my hard earned education. Thank you to the many people on this forum, including Randy Kreig, who have contributed to this education especially when I have I have been discouraged. Concerning Mr Kreig, I often wonder if that job he took at CAT that he couldn't talk about, involved eliminating the operator. I would rather think he helped bring back the H style machine.
Eliminating the operator... There will always be some skill involved, and a lot of common sense. Even with experience, my eyes can't compete with GPS, but you still have to understand grading and road building. Unfortunately the lack of interest in the trade and these so called operator schools pumping out guys and gals that know it all and won't learn from experienced guys. There might not be any operators left in 40 or 50 years
With the speed of new technology now days, I'm thinking less that ten.
So we've come full circle here, (pun intended). Graders can blade backwards and it eliminates turning around which is more efficent if the operator is up for it. So what can I expect to pay these days for a 26 yr. old 570B these days John?,
Average auction is around $21,000, average asking price is around $33,000 so I would expect a decent machine that runs and is fully operational to get between $25 and $29K. Keep in mind that the high low auction spread is from $6K to $45K.
I'm all about technology advancement. I certainly don't want to go back to an A series Deere or G series Cat. With that said. We are a long ways from autonomous (sp?) graders. Good friend of mine is a very large row crop farmer. Kinse makes a Grain Cart without operator station. Totally driven by GPS technology. He wants one real bad. But,,,, he says it doesn't know where that washout is or even where that Electric pole is out in the middle of the field.
I was looking for this picture since this thread began. I believe it is a great example of a time when reverse blading just makes sense.
And what do you suppose happens in the next three feet going backwards? That's not my idea of blading, just using a blade to accomplish a job. I have used a grader to put a culvert in, however a small one. I approached that job perpendicular to the road in ditching mode, then after setting the pipe, may have used a trick like that to cover it before putting more surface over it.
I understand the concept in the pic. Better visibility of the cutting edge when working up against the end of the culvert. I've installed hundreds and hundreds of culverts over the past 30 years. Installed 13 last Summer. I've never reversed my blade to do so. What is happening at the striking end of my cutting edge is as easy to control as my index finger. And that's how I see it in my mind when doing delicate work. Not saying I'm any good at it. Just saying that's how my mind sees it.
I just assumed there was no room to go any further forward (or turn the machine around) so that was the solution
Next people are going to be having a big debate about if angling the blade 42.5 deg's is better than angling it 45 deg's. The question was asked if graders are ever grade in reverse. The answer is yes and for some applications is the best way to do it. The pic. above looks to be a good example of this.
I blade backwards..If the material is light and you take it easy, the grader will do it without any problems. It's a handy trick to have in the repertoire especially when you don't have room to flick the grader around. I've been around graders for 40 years..most of my life, I'm a second generation operator of 26 years..My father was a grader operator for 36 years..he used to do it. The Cat grader demonstrator here in Western Australia would show how to do it too. I've got grader sales brochures, workshop manuals, parts books, operator manuals and grading guides from Adams to Volvo..and in amongst all that, there's tips and instructions on how to blade backwards from Cat, John Deere and Galion just to name a few
To my way of thinking, it should be easier on the machine pulling backwards. It has always impressed me what a sterling job those hand full of bolts that hold the drawbar on the frame do.
Now is a good time to introduce into this conversation the purpose of tandum wheels on a REAL motorgrader. I know that you can show me examples for the next week of single axle rear wheels on old graders and Huber belly blades. I've back dragged with loader buckets and gotten acceptable results. I don't need to explain how tandums wheels contribute to stabilizing the blade to grader operators. For you other guys front wheels handle the rough stuff, blade knocks it down while spreading and setting lateral grade, tandems minimize blade blade disturbance as the machine moves FORWARD over high or low spots which may be or not intensionally left in the road. My grading world is full of this stuff. I'll be watching the front wheels going over and down the crest while the left end of the blade is about to top it , the right side and tandums are still climbing. Now throw a curve in the road where I could use two more arms for grabbing levers to bend that machine around while using my knee to hold the steering wheel. I dream of a joy stick in each hand snaking my way down these roads. Never once have I dreamed of doing this backwards. I understand that there are some mushrooms that might help with that. Needless to say these are not typical roads, but roads they are and I am paid to take care of them and make improvements as funds allow. A articulating tandum wheeled small grader has been the ticket to my success for the last 12 years. My hat is off to all you grader guys who have developed your skills for your particular situations. Thank you for sharing this knowledge. Now back to that front steering cylinder I intend to pull off today. (Shop Talk 570A).
Now is a good time to introduce into this conversation the purpose of tandem wheels on a motorgrader. I know that you can show me examples for the next week of single axle rear wheels on old and new graders as well as belly blades on dump trucks. I don't need to explain how tandems wheels contribute to stabilizing the blade to grader operators. For you other guys front wheels handle the rough stuff, blade knocks it down while spreading and setting lateral grade, tandems minimize blade disturbance as you grade forward. What I would expect to happen in the picture above is the front wheels decending faster than the blade can be lifted, but maybe blade tilt function could help here. Possibly that a ditch is for drainage and will be lined to slow erosion. May be standard operating proceedure for new road construction for all I know. Tandems gently help minimize grade disturbance as you go over crests and dips that are to become part of the finished results. They also help with bringing a road to grade when adding road base or surface by pivoting before and after the rear axle passes over the offending boulder that got pulled up behind the blade exactly in line with your wheel track thereby reducing the blade reaction to the deviation significantly. Think pit mine road and what those graders deal with. I maintain roads where grade will change quickly as I top out over a crest or go over a water bar like feature that we often put in to deal with flash floods when they overwhelming culverts. Throw in a curve now for a little more action and remember to keep that crown and maybe a little super in that corner too with a twelve foot driving surface. Get the picture? If not, it's a little better than a motorcross course as it has ditches for drainage. I exagerate some here. These roads are suitable for passenger cars to home construction equipment. Just one of many situations where a motorgrader can be effective. I can't think of a better tool than a small articulated motorgrader for this job and I have considered and tried other ways. That said, graders are used for all sorts of things such as fire lines and smoothing up road cuts to pushing scrapers and pulling out stuck dump trucks. I find it amazing to see one front wheel in the ditch and the tandems on grade while progressing forward. Can't imagine doing that in reverse however imagination is the limit I would guess. Increditable machines for sure. Now I'm off to Shop Talk to continue my quest to repair a not so increditable leaking front steering cylinder. And that is the other part of the story of owning one of these tools.
Sorry about the double post but you get the idea
This conversation was about using a grader in reverse not about the benefits of tandem wheels or your theories on how graders are engineered to operate. Why do all major grader manufactures make the blade swivel 360 deg's if the blade was never supposed to be turned around? It would be a whole lot simpler to make it only swivel say 120 deg's. It's quite clear you've never turned the blade around but instead of considering it may be beneficial in SOME applications are trying to do everything possible to dismiss its use.
The benefits of tandems are precisely one of the issues. Where do you think that blade is going in relation to the ground when you are in reverse? What rsherril is telling you is that you might pull a little bit of dirt a few yards to perhaps make up for a mistake you made. But you will have to turn the blade all the way around again and make another pass to make it right. In the example photo of trying to set that ditch by putting the grader across it and pulling material back up the slope, you have put the machine in an impossible situation. The tandems have spit the weight and are now pulling up hill. They will spin out and dig trenches. The front of the machine will drop down which will directly drop the blade down, making more weight on the edges and stopping the machine from moving and then the tandems are certain to dig those trenches and more than likely requiring another machine to pull the grader out of a ditch he shouldn't have been in at all. You can turn the circle 360 to make it easy to replace cutting edges and repair the mounting linkages and support brackets. Just because the ability is there, doesn't mean that the machine was meant to be used that way. A grader makes production going forward. I would suggest that before you run on about someone's knowledge and skill, you might look in the mirror and assess your own knowledge and skills.
Apparently Cat disagrees with you and Randy Krieg, Terry 140, the Cat demonstrator in Western Australia, JD, Volvo, Galion and several other manufactures are all wrong? They aren't talking about grading miles of ditches in reverse and it's not like it takes half an hour to turn the blade around. In the example above maybe all the operator wanted to do was pull the material back a few feet so he could finish the ditch down the length of the road going forward. I prefer to listen to experience than be closed minded about what a machine is capable of doing in the right hands. Nobody was questioning the virtues of the tandems or grading going forward. The OP of this thread was asking if a grader could be used in reverse. Graders have evolved in the last 100 years and so have operators.
Ok ladies..... Some people like Coffee, some like tea. I like both. No need for a rumble. I'm sure that when Bernard von grader invented the thing, he didn't want people fighting over it's uses. It's a beauty of a winter's day, and I'm going outside to play with my daughter in the snow. She just got a new sled. Will she go forwards or backwards.... Who knows, whatever works for her. To the OP.... I don't grade backwards. Not saying it's wrong, but I just don't do it.
This has been a very interesting and informative topic. Someone mentioned spinning the blade around for filling holes. I'd like to know if or how feasible this is on wet roads? With this winters weather, I've got lots of holes, but I know I'll turn the road surface to soup if I try to actually grade it. I've been backdragging with the plow truck, just wondering if the blade would do a better job. Any one have any experience doing this? Thanks. John
I thought I would just check my email before going to bed. I've got an interesting conversation going on about a particular butterfly, but there you were and I even thought I took cutting edge's advice and unsubscribed from this thread. You asked a good question deserving a response. I would go with the plow. Think of the mouldboard as a lever and the circle drive as a fulcrum. If you spin that blade when it is in contact with the ground, your putting more pressure on the fulcrum and the circle teeth in contact the pinon gear. Up to you but I've had to reseal that gear box and it's a pain. The drive mechanisum might be even worse, (expensive/ time consuming ). When I'm grading forward, sometimes I want to increase the angle of attack. I have a choice of stopping, articulation, circle shift or spinning the mouldboard. If I chose adjusting the mouldboard with the blade rotation, I will slow down while putting down pressure on the end coming to me to assist in moving the opposite end foreward. Circle shift will do the same, but it results in lifting the mouldboard up which you will need to compensate for, (works well for supers though). Articulation changes the angle of attack w/o changing the blade elevation, but it will effect where the windrow is in relation to your rear wheels. If your rear wheels ride up on the windrow, that will screw up your blade contact with the ground, (difficult to compensate for w/o stopping ). That's what I love about grading. Choices and results. It's up to me. Much of it is feel. Really liked how the old worm drives could give you feedback on down pressure when they were properly adjusted. I operated a Allis Chamers M60 for awhile and other than too small, it was a sweet machine in the feel department. Bench seat helped too. Found a picture of a WABCO 777 I used that was fun, but the leftside blade adjust was a killer. Owner replaced it with a hyd cylinder for comparsion purposes it was good. Never got around to matching the other side. It's still around, but hasn't been worked for years.
Thanks for your quick reply. I talked with a retired operating engineer who started out on a Cat in Viet Nam last night who basically told me I'd be asking for trouble also. This winter has been frustrating. yesterday it was 40, tonight their calling for 6" of wet snow, high of 20 Friday and back in the 40"s next week. No road can take the up and downs No road can take that very long! John
Interesting, I have often turned the mouldboard around as a training exercise for some guy's in the department that are getting the grader course, a lot of them don't realize the blade is turned till they do their pre trips, but the purpose is to get them use to the levers, move the pin, side shifting, rotating the blade and eye to hand coordination, I have never turned the blade to grade or ditch a road, I would be turned around and half way back down the road ditching before you moved the pin side shifted and rotated the blade 360 and re positioned it on the road again only to put it back in the proper position again to fix your mess on the shoulder, not saying it doesn't have a purpose and would like to keep a open mind.
Do you have mean turning the mold board backwards, and then driving forward
I had a stretch of road that had a really nasty wet clay ditch that needed to be pulled. I thought about Randy Kreigs post and decided to try and pull it backwards to keep the drive tires out of the mess and also to see if I could do it. It worked great and wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I haven't found many occasions to turn the moldboard around in 15 years of running grader, mostly just do it to show off to people who don't know much about graders!
Not familiar with Cat graders so bear with me. Can you explain what pin you are moving?
Yes. I was thinking that with the mould board backwards it would not have a tendency to cut and create less mess. I might try it in the yard to see what happens. Right now, between the frost coming out and frequent rain, normal grading will make soup that will need a lot of stone. John
I think he means the high lift pin
you would have to be really careful. The blade is not designed to take a lot of pressure that way. One thing to turn it backwards and back up, or backdrag a bit of lose material. Just don't dig or catch anything hard
Again, excuse my ignorance. What's the high lift pin?
On the picture of your dash, under the park brake light the pinlock symbol so you can ditch or do back slopes
If the blade was never designed to be used backwards in ANY situation why does it? Does it specifically say in the owners manual "Do not to use the blade backwards"? It's not for changing the cutting edges. That's not even how Cat recommends changing cutting edges. If that was the case it would be the most elaborate and expensive provision ever put on a machine to simplify maintenance. I did notice on a small LeeBoy grader the circle ring doesn't have teeth all the way around which definitely limits how far the blade can turn. Just because a lot of operators haven't used or felt the need to use the blade backwards doesn't it can't be done.
For the record Welder Dave how do they recommend changing the edges? We have our own technique but I don’t remember seeing anything in the operators manual. Kind of curious now. Thanks
The pin being talked about is the ring in front of the cab that stands vertically. There are two pins that can be pulled using air pressure and it allows the lift cylinders to index in different places. If you want to bring the blade out from under the strong back of the grader you pull the pins and then push the right side cylinder down while picking the left lift cylinder up. This allows that ring to turn on the circle. You also need to shift the slope cylinder all the way to the right. Once you have the pins aligned in the highest hole for the right side and the lowest hole for the left side you lock them in. Now you can pickup the right side of the blade and rotate it at the same time, taking some skill to not hook the right front drive tire as you extend the left side lift cylinder. You usually have to slide the blade in the carriage at the same time to clear the right front drive and not drop the other end of the blade into the right front steer tire. I've done it hundreds of times as part of the inspection process or for changing cutting edges and repairing the blade carrier. It takes me about five minutes per cycle. I've known about half a dozen individuals that can do it as fast as I can and I've had multiple people do damage trying it without someone to guide them through it the first several times till they understand all the motions. As was stated above, it's far easier to turn around and go the other way. You can't find out from what someone has written in a book everything that can be done and you probably shouldn't be telling professionals what can or can't be done when you have never set foot in something.
This is what I received from an experienced operator who doesn't want to be dragged into this thread. He seems very credible and has nothing to gain. Just stating his opinion. That's right...and his argument gets blown out the window with that when the correct way of changing cutting edges as per operator manuals is to chock blade up on the ground and square to the frame..not that anyone does that..but anyway lol. Randy Kreig is the grader operator's grader operator..He knows his stuff. I have the application guide he did with Don Hess. He also had a role in the development of the H series..He got to bring the first 24H out for show and tell. The only time Randy would loose me is if the Cat marketing spiel was getting too much but that was rare..
Randy can speak for himself. Apparently you can only name drop and spout inanities.
The point I was trying to make in my previous post was, if anything, shouldn’t it be a little easier on the machine with the board turned and the grader pulling in reverse? In normal forward operation the entire draft of the machine is absorbed through those four bolts that hold the drawbar to the frame. In reverse, the frame is pushing the drawbar. Not that I would grade in reverse more than once in every blue moon, but I can’t see it harming the machine at all.
Randy did speak for himself and posted pictures and detailed explanations and apparently you can't except that either. Randy was employed by Caterpillar as a Motor Grader Product Evaluation Engineer along with Don Hess. He also went out with the very first 24H to demonstrate and train operators. Do you really think Cat would send some hack out with their very first 24H worth 1 mil+. He also has patents on graders. There is 90 years of experience alone with just the 3 people listed below who worked on Caterpillar graders. If that's not good enough for you, then sorry I can't help you. Nobody can! Being in denial because you've never done it or don't think it should be done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I don't think you have to be an operator to be able to tell who knows what they are talking about. Next your going to say an excavator bucket can never be turned around for odd applications. Funny you haven't disputed that motorcycles had a 24 hour race when temps. reached below -40C. Yeah, I posted that too. Does that make it false? Quit looking for fault just because I posted something trying to help someone with an inquiry. About The Authors AEGQ0947 For more complete information on Cat products, dealer services, and industry solutions, visit us on the web at www.cat.com © 2011 Caterpillar Inc. All rights reserved Printed in the U.S.A. Materials and specifications are subject to change without notice. Featured machines in photos may include additional equipment. See your Cat dealer for available options. CAT, CATERPILLAR, SAFETY.CAT.COM, their respective logos, “Caterpillar Yellow” and the “Power Edge” trade dress, as well as corporate and product identity used herein, are trademarks of Caterpillar and may not be used without permission. Phil Newberry Phil was in the construction industry for 20 years prior to joining Caterpillar. As a private contractor from 1978 to 1988, his experience covered all phases of construction, from site clearing to laying asphalt. He then worked for a contractor as an Operations Supervisor, overseeing projects from beginning to end, with a focus on motor grader operations. In August 1998 Phil joined Caterpillar as Product Evaluation Engineer, working on the Tier 2 H Series Program, the K Series Program, and the M Series and M Series 2 Motor Grader Programs. He is presently employed as a Motor Grader Market Development Engineer at Caterpillar in Decatur, Illinois. Randy Krieg Randy operated motor graders and heavy equipment for over 20 years and is a member of the International Union of Operating Engineers. In the summer of 1973 he started working at the family business, Krieg Construction Co., as a stake chaser for finish grading work. The following summer his grandfather and father started his operator training on scrapers and motor graders. After graduating from high school in 1976, he spent 6 1⁄2 years operating full-time for the family business. In 1983 he moved to Alaska. There he spent 14 years operating Cat Motor Graders on highway, airport, and erosion control projects for Wilder Construction Co. and Rogers and Bablar Inc. He was employed at Caterpillar in Decatur, Illinois, as a Motor Grader Product Evaluation Engineer until 1997 when he returned to Alaska. Don Hess Don Hess operated heavy equipment for more than 50 years, and motor graders since 1950. Don began his career operating equipment for a number of contractors in the Eastern and Midwestern areas of the United States. He joined Caterpillar in the late 1950’s spending time in sales development and 5 years as a machine applications representative in California. He spent 36 years with the company, retiring May 1, 1995. From 1970 to 1995, Don was a Product Evaluation Engineer. During that time, he was instrumental in helping to develop the Cat G and H Series Motor
Appears Cat recommended graders could grade in reverse in 1938! See paragraph 3. It would seem that other manufactures may want to incorporate this feature in their own graders to compete with Cat. https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news...ecatno12theoriginsofthemodernmotorgrader.html
Well there you have it. Well represented Dave !
Interesting stuff and some good write ups on this subject, well I can't speak for Deere but as for the new Cat's they have a hard time keeping together going forward let alone trying to grade in reverse.
Seems to be a hot topic. I have already given my opinion on the subject.... Never said it's right or wrong, I don't do it, never had need to. Tinnerjohn was talking about turning the blade around and grading with the back of the blade. Don't know about other brands, but my Volvo has expensive plastic bushings that are kept out of the crap because the material is pushed with the face of the blade, regardless of the direction the blade faces. I am guilty of occasionally back dragging a bit of extra material, but would never cut with the back of the cutting edge. I have a mid mount scarifier, the only way I can turn my blade backwards, is to use the high lift. Yes Queenslander, I've often thought that ball and socket is pretty strong, but So far I have never broke one. Like to see how big one is on a 24 Cat. Truth be told is this. 90% of the time, I'm fine grading for asphalt. The tool I use is in front of me, the grades I follow are in front of me. The surface I'm grading is in front of me. I see with my eyes and feel with my ass in the seat. Turning my blade around is not something I would do
Got it. Deere calls that the "Saddle Lock Pin". I thought you had to physically remove a pin. Couldn't figure that one out.
I move my blade into the banking position frequently. Just did it couple days ago to use the moldboard to move drifted snow farther off the shoulder of the road. I change my cutting edges in the bank position. Starting with the nuts up. Remove all but the center one on each cutter. Then step back and remove the last one letting the cutter fall on the ground. Then I swap my blade with the face of the moldboard up, nuts down. This gives me a ledge to lay the cutter on and get the first bolt in. I swap my cutters frequently, maybe a dozen times in a set's life. I can put my blade in that position in one minute or so. Never timed it exactly. Doesn't take very long.
To put this all in perspective, trying to grade in reverse is a waste of time and risks damage to the machine just turning the blade by inexperienced operators. Running in reverse also means you have to reverse your thoughts on operating the controls. Anyone who has run a grader knows it takes time just to learn the controls going forward. So which way do you move the lever to change the angle of attack while moving in reverse. It's not intuitive and you will never do it enough to make it intuitive. Experienced operators don't need to think about turning the blade. They make the right pass the first time. My original statement about someone operating a grader on my site or roads in reverse would get moved to another machine or get sent down the road I would guess it is true of most all operations. Its a waste of production time, fuel and puts the grader at risk of damage that didn't need to happen. Just because someone says it can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea.
That's pretty much how we change edges as well. I also use that position to square them up with the cutting torch. Like I say, if someone wants to grade in reverse, giver. I have no idea who Randy is. I did read the material though.
Ovrszd what size of blades are you using ? On our 160M I’m at 8 by 1 x 8 feet. The best tip I’ve gotten on here is to slice them in half through the center bolt hole to make them manageable. I do bolster the ends so they aren’t really swappable from side to side. The good operator’s wear them straight across. The steering wheel attendants not so much.
Ok, what is this, I see the straight blade but what do you have welded on them and why? also do you have a picture of them on your machine just to get a better idea? never seen this done like the way you have them, interesting. thanks
The end of the blades catch hell on the roll type curbs. I’ll be at the shop later and post some more pictures of some on the machines and what happens when you don't put anything. For now here is a picture of my grader fleet for this current winter. I could spend all summer repairing corners of moldboards lol
Sorry I just keep using the old thin edges to beef up the new ones. I spend maybe an hour on each side but it makes all the difference. Some guys weld pin etc I just have found this works best as there is always old blades about. A picture of our Deere for Ovrszd. I’ll remember to get those shots of the crappy paint quality later as well. My man painted the board here as it was just new to us.
My Moldboard is 14ft. I use 8"x3/4"x7' cutting edges. When they are new and for the first 3-4 swaps, it's a bit of struggle to lift them in place and get that first bolt started. I couldn't handle yours by myself. As to controlling wear, I even run on the wrong side of the road blading once in awhile to distribute the wear. Thanks for the pic of the 770G, looks just like the one we traded last Summer, minus fenders.
One time I've cut a set of edges straight. Was running on frozen roadbeds recovering gravel from the shoulders. Waited too long between swaps. Randy used to post on here a lot. I really enjoyed following his adventures. Especially when he was running the Ice Roads up North.
Yes most of ours our 14 feet as well. I lop a foot of one end and then cut the remainder in half. Much easier to handle. I’m actually thinking of switching to 1 x 10. Theoretically should last longer. There’s a pretty significant savings if I buy a 100 at a time as well. Yes Randy was/is the Cat grader guru. I wonder if any of the other manufacturers have had operators like him on staff ?
i remember 40 years ago Emil Anderson Construction was rebuilding a 2 lane highway. After paving one lane they would move the traffic over and then have to tightblade the other lane. On one stretch there was no room to turn the 14E so the Grader operator did one pass forward, one with the blade reversed, then a final pass forward. This was more than a mile long. the truck drivers joked that he didn't need the third pass he was so good in reverse.
I've been thinking and trying to visualize grading in reverse since this thread started and all I can think is how coordinated you would have to be to maintain a crown, watch the blade and all the other things you need to do while either standing facing the back of the machine or watching the road in the mirrors. My hat is off to all the great "bladehands" who built and maintained roads, especially before hydraulics and electronics to make the operation a little easier. John
It's amazing what good operators and a little ingenuity can do.
When I was a kid our township had one, as well as some neighboring townships. I wish I could reincarnate even one of them. I hope to come close enough to their ability to be remembered like they are! John
I back drag away from bridges or when finishing a new culvert install. Most important thing for me is to use the articulation rather than the steering wheel for lateral correction. Just about the time I think I'm good at it, I'll prove I'm not so much.....
[QUOTE="ovrszd, post: 866221, member: 4745" Just about the time I think I'm good at it, I'll prove I'm not so much.....[/QUOTE] Please don't rock that boat too much ovrszd, I don't swim well! John
That is a nice fleet of graders, you most have lots of headache's, I see now what you have made and what they are for, we have a metal curb protector that bolts to our plows and wings that does the very same thing you have on your mouldboards, our graders are pretty much on the back gravel roads only, our truck plows/salt trucks do in town and highways and some times help with the back roads, we don't need them on our Graders. thanks for the pics
Here's part of an Army manual on grading in reverse and other manuals that includes it. In the last one (a Navy manual) on pg. 17-16 it states that "Reverse grading is only for operators who have developed superb skills in grader operation." https://books.google.ca/books?id=2K8XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=motor+grader+operation+with+blade+reversed+going+backwards&source=bl&ots=NRbwX19lHo&sig=ACfU3U3DgAHJQrYaZKqXFuAN92ZbtrCPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAounh7tfnAhVSLX0KHUsIBPYQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=motor grader operation with blade reversed going backwards&f=false https://books.google.ca/books?id=i8DqGy3vEyMC&pg=SA8-PA11&lpg=SA8-PA11&dq=motor+grader+operation+with+blade+reversed+going+backwards&source=bl&ots=dNgpc1-iis&sig=ACfU3U30dCZC_CVOIQvMY1mhf7jGsgqp7g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAounh7tfnAhVSLX0KHUsIBPYQ6AEwC3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=motor grader operation with blade reversed going backwards&f=false https://navybmr.com/study material/14081a/14081A_ch17.pdf
I learn new techniques all the time. I also think as I age my reaction times and vision change. So I have to alter the way I do things to get the result I expect. Running a Blade is very evolutionary. When an Operator can't adapt he needs to be removed. It's my job to do the best I can to produce the roads my Board of Directors desire. It's their job to remove me when I can no longer do that. I don't want my legacy to be the Operator that stayed too long.
Be a bit chilly on that bike
Not to dig up the past, but I was shouldering a new pave job. There was a long wait for trucks between rounds, so I did the unthinkable, I read the operators manual. It spoke of the blade being built for pushing, not pulling, and that it was ok to move small amounts of lose material, but if it was necessary, the blade is designed to grade in reverse if swung 180 degrees before doing so. Now I have always known it could be positioned that way, but have never really considered using it this configuration. I have, on many occasions, pulled a bit of material back to get rid of it, bot for the small amount of material that I am trying to lose, it wouldn't be worth the time. But the book for Volvo says it's not recomended, but it is doable.
I don't think anybody has ever suggested turning the blade backward for heavy grading or long distances. Just unique applications where it would be desirable to do so.
yes, but I believe it was argued why would you try. I can't ever see the need for it, but it is in the operators manual
@cutting edge A motorgrader is constructed to operate in the foreward "Pulling the Moldboard". That is why the thingy supporting the circle is called the Draft Frame. The front end pulls the moldboard. Once you understand this you will move to the next level. Push frames push, Draw frames pull. Big differences there and it will change your ways of operating a grader.
OMG. Someone who helped develop Cat graders, helped write the manual and has over 3 decades of grader experience, several operating manuals all stating the blade can be used in reverse for some applications and you still want to argue about it. As I said previously no one is suggesting heavy grading in reverse or for long distances. The blade on most graders is made to be turned 360 deg's. and can be used in all those positions unless it specifically says not to. Cutting Edge discovered it says the blade can be used in reverse in his manual. It's not very common but can be done.
When I started in the road business in 1972, we primed our gravel before paving with RT-2 Road Tar -2. It would soak into the gravel 1-2 inches. Once the gravel was complected and to grade, the grader would back blade the gravel to open it up for the prime Almost every operator would spin the blade 180 degrees to back blade in the forward direction. Then the oil companies convinced everyone to switch to an emulsion product, a lighter grade of the refinery column emulsified with water. I can remember my first job - curb and gutter- when we primed with emulsion and it rained shortly later. All the emulsion ponded up in the low spots. Since the curb was on the gravel with 3-4 inch expose on the gutter pan, the emulsion was 3-4 inches deep and any higher went down the storm sewer. RT became hard to get so the prime coat was removed from the plans and specifications. Now days, the gravel gets graded, compacted, and the asphalt placed right on the gravel.
you may have been a great teacher, but reading must have eluded your grasp. I realize that you pull the drawbar. But only in a straight configuration. Any angle of the MB, and you are deflecting the material. Were it possible, I would put my grading knowledge and skills against yours any time. No offence to others, any ******* can grade a road, myself included, only a few can fine grade, me also included. My statement was only to add to the discussion, that while I can't see myself doing it, and here's where the reading part comes in, so pay attention..... It actually says it is possible in the operators manual. Unless you are just foolin, then forget the whole thing.
You can drive a car a hundred miles an hour in a school zone. Do you think it would be worth it to try.
If I felt like it perhaps. No school after hours or on weekends. There's always a way around things. Some of you guys seem really against it. I think I'll try it just for dirt
It's like saying you can't put a bucket on an excavator backwards. It's not common but people have successfully done it for unusual applications.
Putting a bucket on an excavator backwards is a very common thing to do now days with the advent of quick couplers. It's not the same issue at all.
How can you dispute something that says it can be done in the operators manual? It seems to me that the first thing you should do before operating any machine is fully read the operators manual. My Cat has a placard on it saying the exact same thing.
So how many graders have you run, serviced or repaired? How much money have you put into something an operator tore up doing something stupid and knowing that because of it someone on the payroll might not get a check on time?
This is beyond ridiculous. An experienced finish grader operator just confirmed you can blade in reverse according to the operators manual he keeps in the machine. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it stupid. Cat, Volvo and others say it can be done. Since you work on all these machines you must have a boatload of manuals. Show me in a manual where it specifically says not to reverse the blade and grade in reverse. We'll start with Cat since they are the most popular graders on the market. I don't want your opinion, I want a page from a Cat manual specifically stating not to grade in reverse.
You didn't answer my question. What have you ever done with a grader?
I posted they can be used in reverse to answer a query and this was confirmed by experienced operators and in the operating manuals. I never expected to get in an argument about something that says can be done in a manual. I also recently talked to the head grader instructor at the operating engineers training center near my property. They have a new Cat 140 (no letter, which you questioned), a Cat 140M2, a JD 770G and a Cat 140H they are selling. He has been running graders for 37 years and came down to put a 3% slope on my oval track. I asked him if he's ever graded in reverse. He said he's turned the blade backward but hasn't had the need to grade in reverse on jobs he's done but can see where it could be useful. He also knows who Randy Krieg is and reiterated that he is the acknowledged Cat grader expert and wouldn't question anything Randy says can be done with a grader. He did write the manual after all. You don't accept this so show me where it has a specific warning not to grade in reverse in a (Cat) operators manual? That's all, not more questions your personal opinions or attacks on me.
I have seen operators turn the moldboard around and fan out small windrows and material. They were not grading in a true sense of the word. They were both good operators and had been at it for years.
You still haven't answered my question. What have you ever done with a grader?
And don't it make my brown eyes, don't it make my brown eyes, don't it make my brown eyes blue........
Are you a certified grader operator now? Did you write the manual for Cat? I answered your question, more importantly I answered the OP's question and provided credible back up to support it as did others. The OP and other posters accepted it. You hijacked the thread to offer your opinion. At this point that's all it is, your opinion. You're disputing what it says in several operators manuals. Now answer my question. Show me in a manual where is specifically says not to grade in reverse? No more of this back and forth, show me a page from a manual to support your opinion.
So you have never operated, maintained or repaired a grader of any kind. My parent’s generation called that talking through a paper bung hole. You keep trying make yourself look smart by standing on some one else’s shoulders.
Interesting thread to say the least. Grading backwards isn't something I have personally ever seen or would have considered. I can see that it could have its places, and may have been more common before all wheel drive graders existed. However, I don't believe most operators possess the skill to do this, and it is not common practice. With that being said, lets not be taking any personal attacks on anyone. Quote from 160M series 2 operators manual: Intended Use This Motor Grader is an earthmoving machine as described in "ISO 6165:2001" and is classified as a grader. This is a self-propelled wheeled machine which has an adjustable blade positioned between the front and rear axles. This Motor Grader can also be fitted with a front mounted blade or a rear mounted ripper. This Motor Grader is intended for use in grading, sloping, ditching, and scarifying of materials through a forward motion. I have checked my Deere, Case, Cat and Volvo operator manuals, and none of them make any specific mention of grading in reverse (that I could find). Although, Case did make some mention of back dragging and operating angles. Case 885 Tier 3 Manual Using the moldboard to back drag material should be avoided if possible. This can cause heavy wear on the moldboard guides and possibly damage the side shift cylinder piston rod. If back dragging cannot be avoided, make certain material does not contact the positioning piston rod. Although the grader permits the circle turn 360°, most of the grading operations are done with the blade between 15° and 45° in relation to the work direction. TLDR Reverse grading is permitted, but not the main intended operating method.
I figured the name calling was coming. It's a pattern with you. You obviously can't provide anything other than your own opinion so feel the need to resort to name calling and insults. It certainly doesn't make you look smart! I think when you have such a closed mind it makes you lose credibility but people can decide for themselves. Several experienced operators and operating manuals going back to 1938 have confirmed the moldboard can be turned around and used in reverse. You dispute this despite seeing pictures and detailed explanations of it being done. It's right there in front of your eyes but you're more interested in arguing and voicing your personal opinion with nothing to back it up. Sorry but if Randy Krieg who wrote the operating manual for Cat, helped develop the H series, demoed the first 24H and has decades of experience including patents on graders shows definitive proof it can be done that's good enough for me and several others on this forum.
M series are a little different beast. Cutting Edge has already replied that his Volvo manual states it can be done. Now in these manuals you have does it specifically state that the blade should not be turned around and used to grade in reverse? The Case manual almost alludes to it being able to be done. Copying your post another line comes up. Not sure why it doesn't show on your original post but is pretty conclusive. THANKS! TLDR Reverse grading is permitted, but not the main intended operating method.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE] My Volvo is a 2011. Manual is almost identical to the champion in the operating section. Says it is possible but not recomended. Like I said, I back drag small amounts of lose material sometimes when there isn't room to turn, just to feather out. Can't see myself taking the time to swing the MB around for that. I do peatmoss fields every year. The haul roads are only 16 feet wide and some are almost a mile long with no place to turn. It would be more convenient to grade in, rotate MB and grade out, but it is course shale, and even though it says it's possible, I think it would put a lot of pressure on the timing and rotational gears. If it were gravel, I would try it in a heart beat. But for now, grade in, back out, back in, grade out.
It has been done successfully by experienced operators. Even one of the manuals states it is an advanced technique for experienced operators. If you get a chance you should try it and post the results.
I have and sometimes back drag when doing some spot grading but no amount of distance, I have also swung the blade around and pulled material out of the ditch in reverse, but working on a shoulder you may find yourself being pulled into the ditch, I find you lose traction easier pulling material in reverse, but be careful not to shear your gearbox pinion off swinging your mouldboard around, to much back dragging will wear out the back of your holders if you are using stinger blades, so proper pitch on the blade is important, I believe back dragging and reverse grading may not be recommended but is important and useful if done cautiously.
I agree with 20/80. I'm a bit baffled that this has become an argument. It's certainly possible. And in specific situations might be beneficial. As graders have evolved so has their versatility. All operators should be open to that. If not the operator is limiting their own potential. I have received several comments over the years from observers saying they didn't know a grader could do that. Makes me proud to be an operator when I hear that. The cutting edge is a simple extension of my hand.
There’s things every machine can do that aren’t “normal” or accepted operation, but it isn’t a criminal offence to keep them in your arsenal for that once-in-a-while situation where you need to think out of the box. It gets a bit ridiculous when people get personal over a difference of opinion. I have a total of possibly forty hours on graders, but I’ve lost count how many on dozers and it still makes me laugh that I’m going to hell or Portland for dragging the blade backwards for ten feet.
There is times, and circumstances that learning how to back drag material is important. In a municipal setting back dragging away from train tracks, or for feathering out intersections comes in handy. If you are going to back blade, I'd recommend tilting the moldboard completely forward to use the cutting edge, more so then wearing on your bolts and nuts which hold the cutting edge. The other thing to consider in a public setting is safety. Limit the amount of backing up, as it requires a lot of attention. My opinion is use it when you need it, but avoid unnecessary use.
Welcome. The discussion although 3 years old was about rotating your circle so the MB faces you, and grading backwards. If I remember, it caused quite an argument at the time.
A ridiculous argument too, questioning a master operator who worked for Cat and helped develop their graders.
I have very little blade time but I did do one thing backwards. It was on a freeway job in Olympia for PKS. I cut a little groove for a fabric cover over a slope, and then very slowly back bladed the gravel over it after they tucked the fabric in the groove. Then they made strings of sandbags to go down the slope. I suppose that forward would work just fine but this was the suggestion and I went with it. Then I wheel rolled that down tight.
I see this is an older thread. Here is my take on this. I can and do use my grader in reverse. I do fine finish grading for concrete. I am paid to keep grade to within 1/2" or a 1/4" each way. My machine will not turn the blade 180 degrees. The biggest issue I have is getting too much material into the back of the mold board. I don't want gravel or dirt in the hydraulic lines, fittings, or sliding parts. I only back drag lighter winrows. I can finish a job faster by knowing how to grade in reverse. I can fill holes or touch up areas that need addressed without turning the machine around. I do it all the time..
This thread was more about turning the moldboard around and then going in reverse. I think everyone has back bladed some with a grader even if just to smooth off the last little bit that was pushed up.
This an interesting thread, despite the head-butting between John C and Welder Dave. I've owned and operated a few graders - from old knuckle-buster Cat 12's, to hydraulic-over-mechanical 14E, to a full hydraulic 140G. And I've employed more than a few grader operators, some good, some not so good. Plus, I've worked along grader operators who were highly skilled, and who could grade to a match-head thickness with knuckle-busters. Can't say I was ever that good, but I've built a lot of roads and banks that are still in use! But in 30 years of being an earthmoving contractor directly, plus another 28 years of being associated with earthmoving equipment and construction and mining projects, I cannot ever recall - not even once - seeing any grader operator ever reverse the moldboard, and grade backwards with it in that position. I'd imagine it would take a very versatile operator to operate effectively in reverse, and it would need an ability to develop a "reverse-skill set" to function as effectively in reverse, as going forward. Having said that, I just happen to have a copy of the "Caterpillar No. 12 Auto Patrol" sales release brochure from July 1938. In that brochure, Cat clearly state and illustrate the ability of the No. 12 Auto Patrol to blade in reverse. However ... note that the No. 12 from 1938 had a moldboard length and wheel/tyre sizes that allowed for easy 360° rotation of the moldboard, without any fear of hitting a tyre or a step or any other part of the grader structure. This is not the case with many later graders, and one has to exercise extreme care not to clip a tyre or step when rotating the moldboard. I might add, I have never seen a grader operator working in a suit and tie, and wearing a smart fedora hat, either! But I did have one dozer operator - who was a bit of a "character" - purchase a bowler hat and matching double-breasted English suit, from a secondhand clothes shop, and drive my D6C, wearing that outfit! I must say it added some class to my operation, and brought a few laughs from clients! One could also opine that reversing the moldboard was a more attractive option than trying to do a 180° turn, in an early Cat grader that didn't have power steering! My first 12E didn't have any power steering, and I can still l remember the tricks involved in minimising steering effort, when it was time to turn around 180°! And the never-forgotten lesson to keep your thumbs aligned with the steering wheel rim, and out of the spokes!
X2 on the thumbs, Oz, I learned that day one on a Farmall M in the 1970’s. one outfit I worked for in the 90’s had a grader operator on a 12H who in the morning couldn’t hit a cow’s arse with a shovel, let alone hit grade. After 11 when the pub over the way had opened, two quick pints and he could hit grade all day.
You need to let it go WD..
If a guy can be productive turning the blade around and blading in reverse without damaging the machine, why not?
My father do it many times at long and straight works at 1960 with Adams 440 , 666 , cat 12e cat 14d.and I do it now with my cat h series. No problem for the machine. If something was going wrong my father would have tell it to me. The only wrong when you are bored to turn it all around and you move material back with the opposite side of the moldboard the guard of the blade after sometimes becomes carbage
I used to run my AC Fourty five backwards in waterways. Operators manual explains how to do it!
The customer wanted me to scrape the junk off this old logging road as far as I could go. I got about 200 yards past a turnaround before I was stopped by a large vine maple and I wasn't too excited about slowly wiggling my way back out to make the second pass. I figured as long as I'm going slow and easy anyway, may as well turn the blade around and be productive and save that extra trip in and out. It worked great.
nice but when you do that a few times take us a photo of the guard behind the blade
He's not back dragging, he has the moldboard rotated 180 degrees, so the face of the blade is still facing the work. I back drag sometimes, but not enough material to come over the cutting edge. I never do what he is doing cause I'm too lazy to unlock the saddle, change hole position, swing the draw bar out, careful not to hit anything, rotate around, swing back under...... I'm tired just explaining it. What he is doing is safer than back dragging, as the pressure is on the work side of the MB.
And i am too lazy to turn it and i back drag so my guards is off
I'm limited because the moldboard extension is welded on making it too long to turn around.