anybody ever tried retro fitting a head unit from a feller buncher onto an excavator? i know there would have to be auxilary hydraulic lines ran to the head section but could it be done? i have been looking into tree shears but the feller buncher head unit saw blade i think would be much more effective for clearing. Thanks
You can do that, but it requires a lot of reasearch to set the machine up to run the head properly. Several critical items: 1. If you are talking about a disc saw type head such as Koehring, you have to have a dedicated pump large enough to run the saw blade at a high enough speed and pressure to cut right, too little flow at too low pressure will bog the blade and once you do that you loose the flywheel inertia required to go to the next tree, recovery time becomes a problem. The inertia of the heavy disc does most of the work. 2. Set up of the saw drive motor pressures is critical and very touchy. Hose sizes and hydraulic cooling are an issue. 3. Most manufacturers of heads will work with you to set it up right, a home made cobbled up job will make their head look bad. 4. Boom loads will be different from digging, a couple of 80 foot trees in a 20 MPH side wind or driving over rough ground will try to twist your boom in ways it has never seen before. Check with your excavator manufacturer to see if there is a kit to apply to your boom to strengthen it. 5. A Shear type head will have some of the same challenges except for the dedicated pump.
On edit-I see oldseebee beat me to bit about a saw pump, and made quite a few other points i neglected. Feller bunchers take a ton of hydrualic power to run. Most carriers have a dedicated saw pump. They normally run 30+gpm and that doesn't work any other head functions. Considering the flood of forestry equipment for sale in the last year, i gotta ask why not buy a forestry carrier? They are setup to work in the woods-guarding, undercarriage, cooling, ect-, which is a a lot more than you can say for most excavators. I'm curious as to what you will be using the machine for, cutting trees obiviously, but in what kind of conditions? Landclearing, small unit logging, or something else? A tree shear is going to get you up and running for a lot less capital and headaches. If you haven't already, look into dymax timberwolf shears. http://treeshears.com/excavator-attachments/default.htm
I've installed too types of heads. The hot saw turns the blade at all times. The old Risley heads only ran the blade when you went to cut down the tree. If you are using a Japan excavator which means anything built in the last 15 years you will need diverter valves hooked up between the pump and the main valve in most cases. Some machines do have auxiliary valves that will provide two pump flow to the head so you might get by with a newer excavator. Either way though, an expense you cannot forget about is the required guarding for the cab and rest of the house. We always removed the stock sheet metal and built a whole new cover for the house out of 3/16" or heavier plate. It is expensive and time consuming but for falling trees there is no way around this safety requirement. The last one I was associated with was a PC360-5 Komatsu that we installed a Risley head on. The machine as a whole was way too heavy and there were a ton of track problems. I had to chase that machine till the lease ran out and then it was sold and went to Alaska. Last I heard it was at the bottom of some bay up there. The process that you describe is not a real good way to get a cheap feller buncher and as others have said, purpose built machines are way better. Good Luck!
Buying a whole machine will be less of a head ache in the long run. The biggest obstacle will be trying to get enough flow to run the hot saw. Most bunchers have a lot more HP then a similar sized excavator.
If your ok with a dangle head you could try Waratah, a repainted Huldins. Link: http://www.waratah.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=article&id=188&parentid=div2&j=2 Video: YouTube - Hultdins Feller Direcional - Directional Felling Head I like this Valmet head the best, a repainted Timbco. Link: http://www.komatsuforest.ca/default.aspx?id=29956 Video: YouTube - Loewen High Rotation Wrist on Timbco Barsaw
Wow that was the most unproductive 5 minutes I have seen in a while. A 622B Waratah would eat that timbco head for lunch.
here
I've never seen a hot saw head on an excavator stick before. The dangle head is about your option without starting to change the front end of the hoe. I assume that you don't want to do that extensive of a mod? Check with some dismantlers - you may find you could pick up a whole F/B boom/stick combo that will have cylinders and hoses run already. They you add your hot-saw head and change machine configurations at the boom pins when you want to clear land. Don't forget the guarding - an excavator cab is not protected nearly well enough compared to a F/ B cab. Check out the windshields for instance.
I see several folks caught something I missed. I believe that OSHA requires certified FOPS (Falling Object Protection System) on feller bunchers, or for anything working in the woods. When I worked for Bell Equipment, several people hung a Bell saw head on excavators. The Bell head is a dangle head with a 30" Hydraulic chain bar saw. They work quite well except that you just cut and drop. They hang off a rotator so you can turn the head sideways and use swing to get your tree as opposed to driving into each tree
the excavator i have is an 892D-LC its a 35 ton machine so im not too worried about it being able to handle it. It also has a an auxilary hydraulic valve already on the pump. I talked to a few other guys about it and the guy Im thinking of buying this head from said he mounted one on his excavator just like mine and it works fine. It is a hot saw and hes selling it for pretty cheap which is why im thinking this over the shear. The reason for not buying a machine just for this is cause i do some land clearing but not enough to justify a whole machine for it. For the most part I just do excavation. The one thing i am wondering is im guessing i would have to have a separate joystick or set of buttons to operate the saw and grapples right?
I dont think you realize the amount of work that this is going to be for you to make this work. The hot saws require big flow so you will probably need some sort of diverter valve right off the hyd pump. You only have one aux hyd spool in the main control valve which has to run grab arms and head rotate if the head does rotate. To do that you can proabley get away with a load sensing saur danfoss valve stack which will have to be mounted on the back of the boom. Most likely it will need to have 3 sections two for grab arms and one for head rotate. Then because your machine is a excavator which has the most power sticking in not sticking out you will probably end up needing to rearranging the orientation of the stick cylinder. Then you are going to have to put more guarding on the cab. Wouldn't want a widow maker falling threw it. Not exactly a weekend project. If you decide to tackle this please post pictures.
You will have to check the flow required for the head. The 892 just might have enough to run a saw head but I doubt it. I have swapped the stick functions to run the saw table and used the aux valve to run supply for the grab arms and head rotate. You will need to talk to a knowledgeable hydraulic component supplier for the right set up for the valves. You will also have to install a bigger set of tubes up the boom and stick to handle all that flow. As I recall it took a minimum 1" tube that can handle 5,000 PSI working to supply the table and a 1 1/2" low pressure tube to return to tank. You will also need a new control handle to work the arms and rotate. I used to install Waratah heads and it never cost less than $7,500. I wouldn't even think of one now for less than $12,000 for labor and parts. Keep in mind you also have to round up the right size pins and probably modify the bosses on the head to fit your machine.
the hydraulic pump has a flow of 144gpm and someone had posted on here that the saw blade takes only around 30gpm. I know its not an easy job to get this 2 work but i think once i got it to work, it would be good to have. we have a guy that works for us who is an excellent fabricator and knows a lot about hydraulics so i think he can get it to fit on the stick properly and make the hydraulics work. It does not have head rotate but just the arms and saw blade. It may be summer before we get this whole thing accomplished due to the fact that we also are farmers and well be in the fields soon but if we do decided to try this and complete it i will post pictures
Actually I'm kind of pulling for you. America seems to have taken attitude and why we can't do something instead of thinking of ways that it can get done. Post the photos when you get started. Good Luck!
:iagree it s great to get stuck in to a bit of problem solving and heavy fabracation, Good luck with it and do post pictures when it gets going!
Thanks for the support and amen to that. Will do.
I think that we are not trying to tell chuey that it can't be done, more passing on areas of concern gained from experience with feller bunchers. It would be a shame to put the machine together and then have it not work right or be a danger to life and limb. We all stand by to help with this project if asked. It is important to lay out all the requirements and estimated costs, then decide if it is going to be a cost effective project .
Exactly what i was getting at.
Chuey, up here we have all 30 and 40 tonne machines in logging. Many many 892's were put to work here, the D is getting old but should work. Your grapple saw if i may call it that, who makes it? do u have 1 simple pic? If it is just a straight forward grapple with a saw this should be SO simple. If your lucky it may have a diverter valve on the head itself, this would be the easiest. other wise you need one mounted probably on the boom, near the boom foot. FYI: I see old 892e's up here with 24" waratahs up here. trust me your machine can run a grapple saw. now find someone who has installed a hydraulic thumb on any conventional deere or hitachi, a 200, a 330, 220, anything. the exact same set up how ever he did the thumb will run your grapple legs (jaws) open and close, typically a 1" or 1.25" line will be tons, the swivel in the grapple will divert oil to both cylinders, then have him run a identical setup but only 1/2" for the rotate. He will have to double the valve now but this 2nd half at a reduced flow, like only 8-10 gpm. Do depeding where the diverter is, if at the boomfoot, you need to run line from it, if on the grapple you are done, the diverter switchs over, the grapple leg cylinders load locks hold the legs closed and the oil is sent to the saw motor. you still have your rotate seperate. u will need a case drain from the saw motor going back and tee;d into your return oil or to tank if need be. whatever your guy does for a "aux valve" he needs to feed it from the pump or main valve, he needs a pilot valve to signal the aux valve. and he needs 2 joysticks to be cool. one has a rocker for rotate, one has a rocker for open/close and a trigger to run the saw. JD is one of the EASIEST machines to plumb in aux hyd;s, any dealer can look the info up thru dealernet, if you have a good dealer he may hook you up quick and cheap and with quality. You still need to hang it but you have no need to require 2 pump flow, loose your bucket curl function or anything else on the standard excavator. Just rember it is almost just like a hydraulic thumb (clamp). Watch your case drain plumbing, it should run thru the cooler before going to tank. That all said, if you dont have a grapple saw but an actual harvester/dangle head or a fixed feller buncher head, everything i said goes out the window.
PS" Be safe!!!!! chain shot can penetrate 1/2 "lexan" tree's can crush your cab and kill you, get a F.O.P.S. send us a pic of your attachment.
I know its been awhile since ive posted anything else on here about the feller head but we have been pretty busy round here with having a wet spring. But i did wanna let everybody know the project is still on-going. We had a special adapter plate made for the head that allows us to use the normal excavator bucket pins to attach the head unit to the stick. Which also gives us the ability to remove it when we have digging to attend to. The plate works great and Im able to move the head around just as a normal feller buncher. Currently the excavator and feller head are at our local hydraulic shop and they are working on getting the hydraulics lined out. We are having one problem tho that im hoping you all can help me with. The head we bought is actually a protype built based on a quadco head with just a few minor differences due to patenting. The head came with no manual or anything which is one reason we got it pretty cheap but we know it does work cause it was tested by the makers when it was built and its never been used since, long story on why so I wont go into that but just basically finances. We figured out looking at other peoples head units the saw uses 30+ gpm flow but what about pressure? We cant seem to find that anywhere. The disc has 16 teeth on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I would advise stayin away from hotsaw's on a excavator. Our Timbco operator swears by the bar saw setup. easier to maintain and at least 1/4 the weight. With a hotsaw you basically have a HUGE flywheel on the bottom of the head...alot of weight. He can handle big trees easily were the hotsaw setup fails. Plus the Hotsaw....as pointed out earlier take's a dedicated pump and a tremendous amount of Hyd. power....gotta get that big ole' weight spinnin. With the bar saw set up....you can still handle decent sized wood without the extream hydralic demands
Anything can be done with enough money...a hot wrench and welder lol...that's loggin and as wify pointed out..."duct tape and bailin wire"....but i wouldn't advise that.....She's a city girl with a Jippo soul lol
I'm new here so please don't take this the wrong way. The outfit I work for is ALL American...and we do whatever it take's to get it done. there's 7 of us in the loggin crew and we all depend on eachother. Plus we happpen to be the one outfit that is contracted by the land owner to log the most worst, screwed up ground there is.....for example....we currently are in what was designated a yarder block....we're a mechanical side...no yarder in sight. But our CAT skinners and stumpjumper are on the ball!!!..kept me plugged all day...Them big outfit's might have no brains......I'll get into that later...about Robinson Enterprises outta Grass Vally Ca...(avoid them like the plague)...but us small show's will make anything happen....GUARENTEED...LMAO :usa One of my Boss's..."mike".(will use his last name once I get permission)...Is the absolute best CAT skinner i'v ever seen...and I've been in the Woods since I was a kid...not tryin to "toot any horns"....but He'll make anyone pucker just watchin him
Chuey, How did you make out with this? I am currently doing the same thing with my Kobelco, well just beginning to do the same thing, get the hot saw to work off the boom. I would appreciate any info, photos, advice you have. Thanks
in my opinion I doubt that 490 is a conversion. i think it came from deere like that only because of where the hydraulic arms are placed and that I have seen at least 3 other identical machines in my time. but I could be wrong just my own opinion/guess.
this is an old insley excavator converted to a delimber.
It works really great actually. One of these days I would like to get a power pack(extra engine & pump just for the cutter head). It's a little slow at times on excavator functions but for the most part the hydraulics keep up. Mine has 2 sets of grapples & to help with keepin enough hydraulic power i put a valve on the head for the bottom grapple to shut off. No problem having enough engine power. I put a sure grip joystick control that has trigger for the grapple & push button for the disc. I have 2 separate valve blocks to power the head. The first valve is a diverter valve that is mounted between main hydraulic pumps & the excavator valve block. This allows u to use both excavator & cutter functions at the same time. I can also adjust it to give more power to excavator functions or cutter instead of being evenly divided. Once it goes through the diverter valve 1 hose goes to excavator valve block & the other goes to a valve block for the cutter. This valve block is controlled by the joystick controls. I put 2 switches in for the diverter valve. One is inside the rear panel beside the main pumps it requires a key. The 2nd switch I put a toggle in the cab. Reason for this is the 1st one has to be turned on in order to use toggle. A toggle switch is easy to bump in the cab so basically a safety feature. The toggle switch allows me to have full excavator function when I need it basically mainly for tracking. With the cutter on tracking is a little slow. Put safety guards on the hydraulic lines on your boom & stick & be sure to have a cage & screen for your cab. Be amazed how far it throws chips. You can check mine out on YouTube @ Huey excavating. I can get you some pictures if you need just send me a message & I can email them to you.
Ok, well yes you can make an excavator into a feller buncher... but no its not the easiest task and its not going to be up to the production levels of a proper unit. I know of 2 deere conversions in the area, a 190e & a 490e both done by fabteck I think. Issues you wil face are not enough oil flow for the saw, not enough controls for everything, especially a processor or buncher head, and a lack of track power. But anything can be over came with enough money...