Ok, so I've been very methodically batting around the excavator vs backhoe ideas for footing excavation, grading, and normal R&R demo purposes. I've been going over pros and cons for months, and have some solid concepts, and some experience gaps. What I'm aiming for is an all around technical digging machine that uses quick coupler for multiple buckets, eventually a tilt rotator, full trimble system with semi auto, and is capable of grading large areas quickly and accurately, as well as dig footings and trenches in the same fashion. Excavator- -pros Stable Quick repositioning for trenching speed Low tail swing makes for a safer machine Visibility due to swing of cab as well VA boom changes visibility and dynamics Large size range Trimble systems specifically designed for them -cons Metal tracks are damaging to finished surfaces Rubber tracks don't grip on dirt as well Distances are slow Short stick makes for a smaller working area Long sticks make for less power Typically have less available power that backhoes of similar weight? Harder to "jump" trenches and benches Hard to transport(over sized usually, but likely not in my size range) Can't carry multiple buckets(maybe fabricate a rack...) Sub topic Wheeled excavators- -Pros(additive) As fast as a backhoe on the ground Not damaging to finished surfaces Have VA boom options Highly versatile as can tow a trailer Stable digging like a backhoe with stabs and blade support -cons Easily twice as expensive start up cost. Hard to find in the US, so likely have to buy new Not as stable as tracks and possibly backhoes without stabs and blade down, making repositioning speed a middle ground? Short stick issue here as well. Backhoe -pros Industry standard in USA Stable with outriggers Fast ground speed Larger bucket up front makes it a combo small loader/excavator Can carry multiple tools Comes in side shift for digging near walls/closer to dump trucks Longer stick with hydraulic extender Typically more Horsepower by size Can overcome large obstacles easier -cons Slowest repositioning 180 degree work area Hard to see ground in front while excavating Side shift is highly uncommon in USA Trimble is not as commonly used with these? Max out at 25k machine Can not tow a trailer Experience gaps- Unsure which is more fuel efficient, similar weight class excavators or backhoes? I assume excavators as they typically have smaller engines. Reposition time adds to length of job, meaning I am leaning toward excavator. I assume the smaller power is due to shorter stick, but the small excavator experience I had, the boom was super slow and hard to keep up with the sticks short radius. I'm unsure if this is common with all excavators, or just smaller ones, or if VA boom alleviates this issue or makes it worse. Swing boom is an option, however, with a tiltrotator, may be an unnecessary weak point in the hoe? How well does trimble work with backhoes vs excavators? It's hard to find any info on it for backhoes. I also am unsure about the system changing if you are in hard material and dragging the machine around, as well as if using a breaker on it will mess it up? Do you need a beater, and a fine grade trimble machine separate? Lastly, which excavator sizes use a similar stick size to a backhoe? Meaning I can still dig with backhoe buckets, and use a larger loading and hogging bucket or large grading beam. Opinions and experiences appreciated.
Hello mate, you've summed it up well in your analysis. Speaking for myself, it comes down to personal preference. I far prefer sitting using a 360 (with plain old mono boom), bucket is always in full view in front of very comfortable seating position, can dig anywhere around yourself, can easily move position including spinning off to side. I don't find it particularly difficult to "jump" trenches etc. But I think it's just personal preference. I'll take the downside of a 360 rather than the upside of a 180 (backhoe loader) and this includes not doing the jobs where a 180 is the better choice, eg where the road mobility and loader is a plus. So others may much prefer a backhoe/loader for all the reasons you've put down, good operators of a 180 are so good at positioning and dragging it sideways or along using the bucket that they lose a lot of the cons on your list and just make a lot of the pluses. I think on a personal level if you're having to choose one or other, it's what you feel most natural or content to run all day, given the types of work you're involved in. That is my 2c Edit. Somewhere around the 6 ton excavator probably starts,using similar size and shape buckets as a standard backhoe loader?
Agreed. I'm thinking more on the heavier side limits than lighter side limits. I honestly am fascinated by the jcb hydradig. The down side being, jcb out here is a bit unreliable, and the hydradig is new tech. Idk how reliable it would be, but it would cover most of my bases less larger machine grunt. The main draw to it is the 360 visibility as all he machinery is in the undercarriage, while still maintaining a 25k lbs weight with 109 hp.
Anyone have descent trimble experience with excavators? If so, how well would it translate to an E stick?
Jeckyl here's a machine that meets all your pro's, don't know about the GPS part though
Interesting. Seems like a skid steer drive train with a modified boom and bucket attatchment. Would be interesting to run it side by side against a wheeled excavator with a tilt rotator to see how the boom mods he talks about work.
I have seen a video of it with a tilt rotator in Europe.
Very cool. I think that would be a top pick for a mini ex. Future plans maybe. I think I'm currently looking in the weight range of 25k lbs and over that fits on a trailer with no oversized load restrictions. My thought process currently is debating a wheeled ex with tilt rotator and attatched dump trailer vs a backhoe and modifying a trailer to be dragged by it, kind of like an unpowered 4 wheel wagon that can be dumped with the hoe, sit an outrigger on it to hold the front down. I'm leaning toward like a larger cat side shift(444?) which would likely be similar in price to a wheeled ex out here as it would be new. Maybe I'll start with a used 450 and save for a side shift, keep the 450 for a beater on demo projects.
Another wheeled excavator well worth looking at is a Menzie Muck https://www.menzimuck.com/en/product-groups/menzi-muck-walking-excavators/ 12 ton machine with similiar output to a 20 ton machine and not over width. A bloke I know here has one and swears by it. Runs a 140hp JD engine
For sure. Those are really cool. If I ever get business that it makes sense, I'll get one.
For digging footings or trenching it is possible to quickly move the TLB backhoe using the hoe and not having to adjust the loader bucket. It is pretty quickly accomplished. Minor motion to the outriggers tis all. Sure is convenient to haul away the spoils from the footings and is nice to get work moving stockpiles or hauling gravel or grading a driveway or hauling tools etc. Sometimes you can just drive the contrivance to the side job when a neighbor wants a chore accomplished. And that leverage of the machine is a lot of power for hard digging. Extendahoe makes for extra capability and reach. Maybe Hydrema will have a dealer near here and their swing will be a lot more than the 180 of a typical backhoe.... For street work, digging around pipes in small excavations, that excavator ability to creep the undercarriage is quite handy. But the TLB backhoe will place the gravel and raise and lower the trench plates. For the one machine and dont forget the TLB can perform compaction with the front wheels and a full loader bucket .... and also to precisely grade the area under the slab using a 4 or 6 foot squeegee blade, would you consider the TLB backhoe and then maybe rent an excavator when such a device is required?
Ya, not to mention, for the cost of a hydradig, I can buy a cat 450f with enclosed cab and a semi truck for the same price, possibly even a trailer as well.
I've seen a couple of 450F models that the dealer had to buy back. They are big and powerful. They don't live very long.
Why don't they live very long?
They basically scaled up a smaller machine and the hydraulics wouldn't handle it. Both machines had the hydraulic systems trashed out in less than a year.
Hmmm, good to know. 430 it is! Now if I can get a 432f2 to cali.... lol
430 are slow like really slow and under powered a 420 will out perform them in everything but reach once you learn how to run them I am with John c when cat quit making the 446 b there large backhoes went to garbage if your looking in that category get a 710 they hold up well and they are bigger Deere has a side shift machine for sale in north America it's a 315 I have never ran one buts it's a 310 with a side shift As a guy that makes his living off a backhoe it's the only tool to have i wouldn't have any of my commercial work if i had a 16lbs ex with out a skid steer and that's about double the cost of a backhoe i always say if you can't do it with a backhoe you are not creative enough you can do most anything and do it well with a backhoe from digging pools to grading for concrete What you will find is to have a machine suited to that job best you will end up with 15 machines that you only use 3 times a year or you get you 1 machine learn how to operate it better than everyone else and make it do the things it's not thought to be able to do As far as grade control for backhoes there is not a system designed for it so the few systems that will work with it are not what they should be. Unless your dealer sucks I would look at pretty hard at deere in the last 4 years they are making a better machine then cat and with cat bringing out there new series with the amount of electronics on it there is nothing but heartache to come from that for a while