A former business contact/friend has recently passed and the family is looking to downsize equipment. They have this older JLG manlift that did run, (propane) but has electrical "issues". It has set idle in this spot for years. I can't locate any identification tag on the machine but it is supposedly a 60' lift. It is 2WD and the tires are black and round with all holding air but needing replaced. An estimation on weight would be about 12k and they are looking for a decent offer to sale. I'm not looking to sale if acquired as I can use it in my business. I took two loads of scrap across the scales last, and this week receiving $80.00 a ton but I would think this lift would be worth more than scrap value myself, but really have no experience in these type items. It would be a big help if I could identify which model this machine is. I don't know any JLG dealers but there are a couple of rental outfits in the area that have them so plan to research there also. What would be thoughts on a fair value of this machine? Thanks,
Weight against scrap pricing sorry to say. May want to look into parts availability first as much of the old squirt boom equipment is fully obsoleted.
I bought a running/functional JLG 45HA for $5000 this summer. Small hydraulic seep, and junk tires, dual fuel Ford engine. I had to replace a throttle controller in the platform 2 weeks ago, and I can tell I have 2 more on their way out. The 45HA weighs 12,500. I would bet that 60 is over 15,000 pounds. Keep in mind it might have foam filled tires that the scrap yard may dock your rate for. The electrical systems aren't horribly complicated on the older units, and JLG has a lot of the service manuals and parts books available for free in their website.
Less than scrap because you still have to load it and haul it. If you need it to actually work, there are probably nicer newer units like colson04 bought for not much $$$.
Thanks guys. The lift appears to be 60H series and weighs about 11 tons with the optional counterweight which this one does not have so a deduction of 2.250 tons for that. It does have the tires ballasted for additional weight but as Colson04 mentioned is a deduction for scrapping.
Cut to the chase, GENEROUSLY offer a grand and then walk from it.
so $640 at the scrap yard, minus your time and expense to load and haul it, vs the possibility it might be worth fixing?
That is along the lines I'm thinking. The engine supposedly runs very well, (Ford four cylinder gas/propane) but there were problems with the unit's operation. Basically it stranded a guy in the basket up in the air and they used an extension ladder to get him down before they took it out of service. It is all solenoid valves and most likely a corrosion or exposure problem as these things don't really get very good maintenance, or upkeep once in private hands. A lift service tech jumpered the solenoid and the boom let right down and the lift was not worked with after that. I know offering a little more than scrap value will open the door to some other items I'm interested in so don't need to go too cheap and sow a bad seed. Thanks,
1693TA, nothing to do with this thread, but in an older thread I see you mentioned you had 8.25 x 15 Dayton style wheels you may part with. Still have? 8.25 x 15 is tire size. I could use 2-8 if available. Thanks Mark
I'd see if the engine still ran, you say it sat for years.
I still have them on my drop deck. I am going to convert to 17.5 rubber and some of the 8.25-R15 tires look good but are early 2000's in age. I could start using that trailer shortly, (during harvest) so will look into replacement rims. Used are difficult to find, and new are kinda costly.
The engine pulled over easily with the fan blade by hand so not frozen which is positive. I have a fresh 4.236 Perkins which could be installed but I'd like to not go through the hassle of the changeout if not needed. A manual I found online says the engine is a 2.3ltr Ford, but it is not the overhead cam version common to automotive use. Looks to be a tractor engine to me and it seems they said the engine had been replaced. I look at a lot of equipment however and could be mistaken.
FYI - I moved this thread from Tool Carriers over to Other Construction/Demolition Equipment. On topic - what CraneOP said. Scrap value less your time loading and hauling. Personally I would offer to take it off their hands for free then walk away..
Just my .02 cents......as the owner of an IR air compressor with a 2.3l Ford, you couldn't pay me to take something with an industrial Ford in it. Other than the dealer, there is zero parts info/availability. If you have a damn good counterman at the autoparts he can help with some things. Dependent on year, the 2.3l engines had a crap ignition system, every test procedure leads to "check with known good part" Ed
sounds about the same as some IH and JI Case, along with Deere. Not many good countermen around here any longer as even Carquest is owned by Advance and what was previously available seemingly disappeared overnight when that corporation sold out a couple years ago. Same folks whom have been there over 30 years, but no supply chain any longer. This engine seemingly still has points as far as I could tell. Also an updraft carburetor so no tellings to the actual age. It does have an SAE #3 bell on the back so conversion wouldn't be that difficult to diesel which if I did change the engine, that is what would be installed.
weight on that mach. is just over 9 tons. and likely has a lot of life left in it
1693TA, let me know when you want to part with any or all of them. Don’t use this trailer a lot, but find it handy when I do. I don’t think it’s worth changing all of them to 17.5’s. if I can find a few 15’s. Thx. I’d appreciate it.
Will do. I have a used, mismatched, but very good set of 215-R17.5 lowboy tires which were basically given to me when a new set was installed onto a friends trailer. I don't have 17.5X6.75 rims to mount them onto so they set in my corn crib out of the sun. Like you the trailer isn't used much but is the "cat's meow" when needed with the rear hydraulic ramps.
The lift still sits in place. The owners decided they wanted $3500.00, so no value to me. I've seen it listed in a couple local trader type papers, but was by there today and it hasn't moved. Oh well.....
I now own the lift. The real estate property sold and they became reasonable in their expectations/price so bringing it home Thursday after they get the area around it cleaned up.
They finally cleared a path to back up to for loading. Thinking I'll probably want to get the engine running as the wheels are spread wide which makes it just over 10.5ft in width. Judging by the steering linkage, it looks like the wheels can come in about two feet on each side. Engine does pull over by hand pressure on the fan blade and everything is connected. Hopefully a fresh battery will allow it to start fairly easy. Talked to the grandson whom was making attempt to get the lift operational a couple years ago. He tells me the engine runs well on gasoline and the basket controls are the problem. He stated the unit drove and turned easily via the controls, but the boom elevation, extension, and basket turntable were "sketchy" at best. A ground cable was suspect, but they couldn't round up an electrical diagram so quite working with it. I have just about two weeks to get it out of there as the new owners take possession of the property on the 1st of December and there are still a lot of things to decipher about what is what or goes where to have an auction. It is evident the deceased was fond of Allis-Chalmers farm tractors having about a dozen along with an AC loader dozer, (HD-5G). Snaking out in the back is an old Caterpillar D-2 also, but I didn't get a good look at it.
Stopped by last evening with a jumper box in the route truck after delivering a small compact tractor. The engine readily spins with the starter, but there was no ignition spark. The machine did have battery voltage to the coil. Having only a screwdriver and pliers with me for tools, I opened the distributor cap finding the breaker points are opening and closing, but not arcing. I'll pick up a new coil and go from there. Still cannot locate any serial number stamping(s) anyplace on the machine although it looks to be either a 60H, or 70H series by appearance. I do think it is a 70H series given it has the 19.5" tires.
Get a condenser too
I did and thanks. Went ahead and got cap, rotor, points, capacitor/condensor, wires, and spark plugs. I had pulled the coil and ballast resistor last evening and brought it home as didn't have a meter and couldn't "ring", or measure anything. Coil secondary is found open, and the resistor is quite corroded, so going to replace the whole shebang at once. Complete unit holds 70 gallons hydraulic oil and there is seepage evidence under the unit. No tellings since the fluid, or filters were last changed and I don't know if there is enough oil in the system to work anything, so will take a few gallons with me in a pony tank next time.
it's not a 60H, looks like a 60F to me. Are you sure it's a Ford engine? They came with a White GS1600 (Hercules). If they want $3500 for it, they better get it running & operational first.
with the axles extended as those are now, it's a shade over 8 feet wide. Can't legally haul it without sucking the axles in, or getting permits.
and I have schematics for it.
And one more
I can make out the remnants of an "H" in the model number decal but that's about it as the "60", or "70" is gone or painted over heavily. The engine is a Ford as it has the oval with the script cast into the block. The engine is a replacement but the same model and type as the original. I have no history on the changeover. With the wheels as they are now the machine measures just over 10.5ft in width. Centerline of the tires measurement is 103" both front and rear. Being unable to locate a serial number stamping leaves me without definitive assurance of exactly what model it is.
This is what a 60H looks like. https://www.liftstoday.com/listing/auction-results/30870899/jlg-60h-telescopic-boom-lifts This is what a 60F looks like. Not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, just want to help you not waste your time & efforts. Serial number should be on the front of the post the basket is mounted on. Under the basket control box. The plates often got knocked off. Rivets might still be there. Date is somewhere between 1976 and 1982
No worries at all as I have no experience with these things. Looking at the video you referenced the pedestal on mine does resemble the similar on the "F" series but mine is much taller: I have not looked in the basket area for a serial number as it's full of hoses and such needing cleaned out. This lift has several layers of paint on it and I'm sure the decals were replaced at one time or another, but one definitely appears to be an "H" at the end and I swear the number 70 was seen also. Update: I just got off the phone with the grandson of the former owner whom has located the purchase receipt for the lift. It is an "80F" series purchased in March 1992 used from a local and now defunct rental outfit. The serial number is not located on this receipt but it plainly states "80F" as a model number. I looked on JLG's website and finding a manual for this series reveals they look very close except this lift does not have extendable outriggers. It originally was Ford powered, (as is now) and the photos of the original engine from the manual looks identical to the engine currently installed. I think we are unraveling the mystery surrounding this lift and I'm grateful. No time wasted nor am I upside down in it. Thanks kindly and feel free to pitch anything pertinent out there as I really have no experience with man lifts at all.
Ah, an 80F, that explains a lot. They came with a Ford 300 truck engine in them. Also explains why your axles are so wide. 60F's are between 8ft and 9 ft wide. Most 80F's had outriggers, I've never seen one without outriggers in fact, until now. That's a big, heavy brute of a machine. 6 cylinder Perkins diesel was another engine option on them I've seen. Looks like fun.
The engine currently installed is a four cylinder Ford engine. I looked at the service manual and it does not identify the engine at all but looking at a photo it's clear to be a six cylinder. Something is awry here for sure.
The manual reads as if the outriggers were incorporated if extendable axles were not. It also appears to relate the outriggers were not included if extendable axles. It doesn't state the outriggers were an option, but never includes them in the other's description meaning outriggers with extendable axles. Puzzling so far as the grandson tells me they replaced a four cylinder Ford engine with a like engine so apparently this machine has had an engine change from the original 240, or 300 six Ford engine originally built with. The manual does state Ford, Detroit Diesel, (4-53), and Deutz Diesel, (F6L912) were all options. No engine sizes are listed but I'm referencing engines from physical appearance. Nothing listed for Perkins. The Ford engine was "dual fuel" with the others being diesel and the Ford engine was 132hp @ 3600rpm. Having the machine drilled down to the correct series I'll look in other places for placards containing a serial number and be able to research an "as built" print. Thanks,
That lift will certainly be underpowered with the 4 cylinder Ford. My 45HA has the 1.6L Ford, dual fuel and it uses ever pony (46hp ish?) when booming up, and certainly runs out of power when driving. More than once while driving, I have lugged the engine right down to a stall. It has the 3 drive speeds (crawl, regular, high travel) and will not take off on pavement in the high travel mode. I have to get the machine rolling in regular travel and then flip the high travel switch and it will speed up. Not sure if that's normal operation procedure or not though. The 300 six would probably compliment your lift much more appropriately, given your higher machine weight.
My thoughts too on the underpower. I have access to a low horsepower, (160hp) non intercooled B5.9 Cummins diesel from a 1990, or 1991 Dodge truck that runs very well and could be installed if an engine swap is needed. Don't really think I'd elect to stay with a gasoline engine whatever went into it as most of my equipment is diesel powered. It appears from the manuals that an 80FO is the series with outriggers, and model 80F is the extendable axles version. Apparently the 80F version weighs right at 33,000 pounds as seen here from the service manual: Regardless, this is a big lift. A couple of my buddies have offered to grab it for me with their RGN trailers so transport doesn't seem to be a problem running or not. If I cannot get the unit to function, I'll take over my portable hydraulic pumping unit to get the boom up at least high enough to load onto a trailer.
Perfect engine for it. I was thinking the same thing this afternoon. Find a rusted out old 80's Dodge with a mechanical 5.9 Cummins, no turbo. I've seen one of those engines last 22,000 hours with nothing more than a head gasket and one injection pump. Great engine.
I continue to learn through reading the manuals as now have all three downloaded onto my desktop computer. I have a small job to do this morning blasting on a truck I just shortened and then plan to get back over to the lift for some preliminary work; ie tune up to get the engine to fire. Thanks kindly,
The engine runs very well. Started right up with a replacement coil installed. I could only get the hydraulic steering, basket swivel, basket level, and boom telescoping in and out functions to work. Could not get the machine to move, swing, or elevate. Shifting the diverter valve to "axles" rather than steering does attempt to pull the axles in, but I'd bet the machine needs to be rolling for that to happen. I'm thinking there may not be a relay string pulling in but I've not studied a print yet so just guessing at this point. The boom elevation toggle switch in the ground control panel feels lazy and I'm kinda thinking the switch may be bad. If so, the boom switch in the basket is in series with this ground control position so is suspect till proven otherwise. I found a couple of solenoid valves with the wires corroded off but jumpering the coils did make them operate but still couldn't get the boom to react. The electric auxiliary hydraulic pump motor is not operational and I put 12VDC to it directly. The magnetic solenoid which supplies power to this motor closes as it should but the motor doesn't operate. I need to do some more reading to ascertain just what this auxiliary pumping unit is for.
Auxilliary pumping unit gets you back to the ground should your engine shut down and fail to restart. Running out of fuel being usual culprit. It won't lift anything (at least mine won't) but it will get you back to earth. My 45HA only.has controls to activate auxilliary pump from basket.
Thanks, I was thinking along those lines but was not any kind of certain. From the service manual I did find this diagram and the solenoids for the actions I was able to make operate are oriented correctly as shown here: Really didn't think too much of it till now but there are some handwheel valves on the front of the housing. All of these valves are open and one was labled "manual descent rate". Looking through the manual, I see these valves are into many functions and I'd wager they need to be closed for normal operation which at least the one is not. This is the trouble with having no experience with these type things; have to figger it out along the way. The telescoping function would extend about a foot before digging into the pavement and the retraction was very slow. Extension was 10 times as fast as retraction. Again, and as can be seen on the print, these valves are into everything that wasn't working, (it seems) so may have been an oversight on my part. Thursday is my daughter and family date night so was on a compressed schedule and really didn't have time to dwell into the machine much. I was really surprised how easily the engine fired up as it's been setting a full three years. Once I get the unit operational and back to my shop, I'll pull that auxiliary pumping unit and send it in for rebuild. It kind of sounds like it may be important to have. I put 12VDC to it directly with my jumper box and it didn't even attempt to move so may be something simple like brushes/commutator corroded, or simply burned up. Thanks again,
The procedure for retracting the axles, involves taking the weight off the axle being retracted by lifting it off the ground using the boom. and YES, all those manual decent valves need to be closed.
The fact that your telescope functions, tells me that you have flow to that valve section (proportional dump valve is working). If closing the manual decent valves doesn't get the boom & drive working, you can operate them manually by pushing the little pins right on the valve sections while on ground control. Assuming you have Racine proportional valves that is. Not a fix but enough to get the axles in and the old girl loaded on a trailer. There is also a way to unlock the brakes if you can't get drive working.
It does have the little pins protruding from the valve body(s). I couldn't get any action from them with manual depression but if I'm dumping right back to tank with those valves open, it would stand to reason. That was before I knew those hand valves existed. I'll get over there by the weekend and the first thing I'll do is rotate those valves closed, and give it a go again. One thing good is I've not seen any blown hoses and it's not spraying hydraulic oil anyplace.
The little buttons will only work on ground control. The dump valves are directing flow to the valves continuously when on ground. Or on basket, when your foot is on the pedal.
Looks like those manual descent control valves are definitely a player:
Racine proportional valves for certain as they look just like this: I keep learning more, (I feel) as I read into these manuals. Surely getting anxious to try out some new knowledge with the machine. I did find the written procedure for spreading and retracting the axles, along with manually lowering, and retracting the boom via the hand knobs. That auxiliary hydraulic pump should, (according to the manual) be able to lift, swing, and telescope the boom, (albeit slowly) in an emergency or as Colson stated, when the fuel supply is exhausted. The grandson tells me they drove and parked the lift to where it sets now. It was the boom functions they could not rely upon. I think corroded wire terminations are suspect myself.
Finally found this blurb: Appears there are three different "PQ" series controllers used in this thing according to part numbers. Never have been into one but probably very minor differences between the types.
Further reading explains the manual valves and their operations: Auxiliary pump operation: Auxiliary pump purpose: Looks like I may need to venture over that way to reinforce some newfound knowledge. Raining and chilly now but supposed to clear up later today.
Well, some success, and maybe a diagnosis to the boom problem. I picked up a new starting battery on the way over this morning and the engine fired off easily using the electric choke switch in the ground control panel. As the engine was warming I closed the valves for the manual lowering function and attempted to use the ground controls to raise the boom with no success. No fuses blown, nor breakers tripped and depression of any of the pins on the proportional valves garners an immediate response in raising, and swing. I did not try to move the machine as it's settled into the dirt and sporting a flat drive tire. No need to tear something up unnecessarily and will bring a portable compressor with me next visit. I've not studied any prints yet but "massaging" the PQ controller handle(s) in the basket when in basket control will garner some boom action, but it's not linear. Elevation of the boom is very "iffy", so this controller may be defunct, or just oxidized in terminations. Not really having a good selection of tools with me limits troubleshooting ability, but I did pull one PQ joystick controller and it's circuit card assembly to clean up on the bench. Looks promising so far. Those proportional valve are "all, or nothing" when you manually depress the buttons and without delay.....
Am I assuming this "mercury switch" shown in the red box with it's terminations having a red arrow is the switch mounting on the side of the boom that precludes raising above 8' till the wheels are spread and it's wheel spread microswitches are satisfied? I'm not really able to post a good clear print as the original from the .pdf service manual is not that clear. Here is the switch shown in the yellow circle I'm referencing which is mounted horizontal when the boom is raised parallel to the ground: I need to get over there this morning and have a small compressor with me. Once I have that tire inflated I'll get the boom to raise the axles and make plans to get the lift back to my place.
Mercury switches Ugh!! They are their own problem as the mercury arcs across contacts it forms a insulator material on the contacts, at some point they just no longer work and are sealed units. Only way to know if are a problem is to bypass. Good luck on finding a replacement as may end up with something next gen.
I remember the mercury switch being mounted to the inside edge of the cover that attaches to the rear of the boom. The one you show looks like something to do with the telescope function. If your boom raises to horizontal and stops there, won't go any higher, you know you need a mercury switch. (or something more modern to replace it with)
Got some action out of it and ready to transport now. I found a replacement magnetic contactor "crowbarred" over and applying voltage to a coil which allows hydraulic flow to the proportional valves constant. The contactor I mention is probably a Ford starter solenoid that is intermittent duty where the requirement is 100% duty cycle. Regardless, after jumpering this with a test lead after removing the copper strip between the power side and switched side after verifying the trigger wire was called for with ignition "on", the hydraulics came to life with the buttons in the ground control station. I was able to run the boom up, down, and rotate the turntable with the ground control switches. I then telescoped out a bit, set the boom on the ground, lifted the wheels, pulled the pin and sucked the axles in without effort. After rotating the turntable 180 degrees, I did the same to the other axles. Then I discovered I could no longer use the toggle switches to raise the boom although all other functions worked. Manually pushing the button on the proportional valve readily raised it however so probably a relay or as mentioned earlier, the switch feels "lazy". The scenario is duplicated with basket controls where everything that should work does, except boom raising with the toggle switch. I'll try to borrow a truck and trailer to bring it back to the shop this evening but may be a couple of days if busy. Here it is moved and awaiting my next move: Damned portable compressor would only make 15psi for some reason so the tire which was flat, (LR) is still low but given the several cracking, it will be replaced.
Looks like one of two possibilities for the lift function to not be working. Switch in ground control panel: or the relay which controls the function: Given the lift function ceased in both locations, (ground, basket) controls at the same time, I wager the relay has gone bad in it's "up" contacts. In a glace of the relays in the junction box there are three kinds. Stuthers-Dunn, Potter & Brumfield, and Grainger branded. I did not pull, or verify if they are all like kind and voltage. There are also three different types/brands of magnetic switches also. I see Delco, Cole-Hersee, and Ford types so over the years someone has done some troubleshooting and/or shotgunning of parts. I have also found several wiring terminations with "Vaco" type crimp ends which are not environmentally sealed against the elements and corroded. Two were actually broken loose and have been repaired. At some point I will need to pull the lift cylinders out and send them in for rebuild. The main cylinder is leaking at the gland a bit as is the stabilizing cylinder for lack of a better description. I dumped 10 gallons of AW-32 hydraulic oil into the reservoir which was right at the "add" mark on the dipstick. Don't really want to add more as the complete system will be changed including filters before going into service. No massive leaks anyplace, just seepage types except the lift cylinder(s). Wear pads on the boom sections need replaced or rebuilt also. I was surprised how easy it was to raise and retract the axles. Really is just about as fast as outriggers but does take leaving the basket to unpin, operate, and repin the axles and steering linkage into place. I can live with that easy enough. Day started at 4:00am so didn't get the machine home this evening. Will do it tomorrow as the truck and trailer are reserved. I should be able to drive it up onto the trailer under it's own power and I'll grab a photo to post once loaded. Thanks for all the help.
Off, you were correct in the placement of the mercury switch being located at the rear housing of the boom. I cannot tell however as the electrical prints don't drill down enough to allow me to know what this mercury switch actually interrupts, or drops out to preclude further boom elevation till the wheel switches are satisfied. The photo I had posted earlier with the boom raised is with the wheels in so don't know if this mercury switch is bypassed, the wheel switches are bypassed, or if parts are done away with. My jumper across the burnt open contactor would not be considered as if I remove that, all hydraulics to raise/lower the boom, drive the wheels, and turntable are dead. The boom switch I had shown in an earlier photo is a limit switch for boom extension: Mercury switch shown as reference 194: Limit switch shown as reference 162:
Loaded up on the trailer and now back to my shop. The ground control switch is proven bad and I've rounded up another so will replace it tomorrow most likely. Breaking the wire loose and reading across the terminal when cycling the switch through positions yields very erratic operation. Been raining pretty good all morning and low 40's in temp so I'm a bit chilled being in it most of the morning. Here you go as promised: Loaded and chained for transport: Dragged it the 54 miles back to the shop and will work with it later. Thanks again for all the help.
It's not easy being green...... Yes, the system will allow you to raise the boom to horizontal even with the axles retracted. That's normal. This is to allow you to load & unload from a truck/trailer. That switch you highlighted on the side of the boom a few posts ago is to cut out high drive when the boom is extended.
I really don't worry too much about being green; in reality, I usually leave the largest carbon footprint around to ensure future generations understand where I've been, and the dues paid to get there..... Rooting through some of my bench stock tonight I located three Cole-Hersee style magnetic switches, and a couple DPDT 20 momentary contact toggle switches. These are Crouse-Hinds brand and not enviromentally sealed, but they are interior to the enclosure so will probably suffice. The originals are not sealed. These are much higher quality than the chinese knockoffs easily available. I need to ascertain the duty cycle on these magnetic switches but they should be 100%. After the trip home, I noticed a Cole-Hersee magnetic switch on the main frame of the machine. It metered open in the coil and was probably replaced with one of the parts store "Ford" types currently installed and defunct. I suspect it had shaken loose from the ride after being placed someplace in the main enclosure and forgotten about. I'll get a good tune up tomorrow done and go from there along with cleaning the radiator core which is 3/4 plugged. Makes good sense that limit switch on the boom. I'd imagine the ride could be a bit "jerky" with all the slack on the boom when extended. This boom really needs tightened up as it really oscillates back and forth when a man goes from one side of the basket to the other. The wear pads are extremely loose if present at all.
Did notice yesterday some of the vertical tubes which comprise the basket are going to need replaced citing rust and splitting from freeze/thaw cycles. I couldn't latch the gate as the striker plate is gone from being rusted away. I'll probably just separate the expanded metal mesh from the existing tubing and replace it wholesale so the cage can be relied upon. this existing one is kinda marginal at best. Forgot to mention in yesterday's loading post that the machine ran out of gasoline on the ramp incline of the trailer. Being that truck was my only source of transportation and I wasn't going anyplace with the manlift's steering axle just about 1/2 way up the ramp, I elected to disengage the drive hubs and winch it up. After cabling, and chaining to the tiedowns for a secure pull point, I put some slack in the driveline with the winch, removed the hub caps and flipped them around to disengage the planetary drives. Up to the point of running out of fuel, all was going well. At my shop I just grabbed my "yard horse" Mack tractor and pulled it off the trailer where it rests now. It was raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock so I went no further with it other than starting the engine. I'll lift the drive axle and engage the hubs, (by hand) this afternoon when it warms up a bit. Hopefully get a couple of small repairs prior mentioned accomplished also.
Found two of the three magnetic switches I have are grounded case, where the last requires a switched ground such as engine generator systems use in their starting circuits. No worries as needing a quantity of two to facilitate repairs. The switch I'd found on the chassis after transport is open in the coil circuit, and I assume the reason it was replaced. Also made up a "few" pigtail leads to use as ground connections on what I consider marginal grounds citing corrosion. Not really wanting to rewire the machine so will address the switched B+ sides as I see the need unless grossly needing attention. Hope to swap that DPDT momentary toggle switch, (ground control lift) shortly, and call this done.
All good now. Replaced both magnetic switches questioned, a few ground wires and cleaned others, along with the "UP", "Down" toggle switch in the ground control station. Commands from ground, and basket respond appropriately now. Wasn't able to do the engine tuning as it's taken to raining again. Don't have enough free space in my building to get the lift inside, so will wait till morning to work on it further.
I noticed the turntable does not stop immediately, nor feels as if it's firmly anchored in place against rotation when the toggle switch for rotation is released. Looking at the unit when the boom is up, I can see what looks like a bleeder valve on the swing brake assembly shown here as #20 in the diagram: I can't imagine this thing would use automotive brake fluid but am wondering if the cavity this bleeder valve seals could capture and retain air entrainment if the hydraulic pump were to cavitate? If this were the case, the swing brake would not effectively engage to hold anything, (turntable) precluding rotation securely. This is assuming the swing brake is hydraulically applied and spring released. There is a little slack such as bull gear and pinion clearance, which I assume to be normal, but at the basket I can move the boom about 18" in geartrain slack side to side. I would think this should be rather secure and not have any movement allowed.
Spring applied - hydraulically released.
That was my first thought as more conventional. However this swing brake must not be functioning at all as it offer no detectable resistance to rotation. Think something got wet in the recent rains as I went to move it this afternoon and at first it would only drive forward no matter if commanding reverse and then it just died. It is completely unresponsive to basket controls but normal in ground control. More troublshooting tomorrow to figure this one out.
Continuing with the adventure: Retracing my steps this afternoon prior to attempting to move the lift and I had ran the boom all the way up which is the first time for me. I did this to attempt to find the source of a hydraulic oil leak. Turns out the wiper on the main lift cylinder is broken and pushing out of the gland at the end so the seal below is shot. Long story short is the cylinder will need to come out for rebuild. I'll address the swing brake at the same time. As the boom was raising I was watching the cable/hose keeper chain as it was deploying and the hoses, along with the wires are quite rough looking. They have been painted over with that green color and it's all cracked and shabby looking. Up by the basket the cable jacket is wrapped in black electrical tape heavily. I'm questioning what might be under there so will look tomorrow. The latest problem is probably a splice or termination problem given what I've seen all over this lift so far. As mentioned, everything still works well, (seemingly) from the ground control station and it's like the wire run from the basket to the main junction box is compromised. I'll find it tomorrow.
Digging into the new problem this morning is definitely a wiring issue. The 24conductor/16gauge wire bundle is compromised and readily splits it's insulation when moved a bit. Insulation readily disintegrates and falls from the conductor with just rubbing it between a finger and thumb. This bundle of course carries a lot of the control wiring. No fuses or breakers tripped however. I most likely brought it on when extending the boom full stroke yesterday as now do not have the relay energizing with the "basket control" switch in that position which is located in the main junction box. The second relay which energizes with the "ground control" switch position is normal in operation. The basket is completely dead of functions and was fine prior to lifting the boom to maximum stroke and elevation yesterday. Glad to discover these things before placing the lift into service. I never got the full story with the "man stuck in the air" in the basket needing a helper to get him down, but so far I've found plenty of corrosion, broken, or compromised terminations to wire lands, burnt coils on electrical contactors, and some very shoddy repair work from years gone by. The fun continues but I'm not out of my realm yet.
'Bout as complicated as attempting a back-course ILS, if any still exist. Greatly enjoyable reading. Eyes peeled for your next report, and thank you.
There are a few of those still around but are getting fewer and far between. Never really worked on many but ancillary support of the equipment was my staple for a lot of years. Engine generators, battery banks, power conditioning, remote monitoring, and the like I'm quite familiar with. Plenty of Rho-Theta sets still out there and they keep soldiering on, but many of the later ASR's are supplanting, or obsoleting them except in rare cases where GA has prevalence in the local NAS.
Definitely a wiring issue. I didn't snap a photo but where the power cable to the basket runs on the side of the boom and enters the area over the top of the horizontal pivot pin the basket uses for level, the wires are gnarly at best. An abrasion point for certain. They have been taped up with several layers of vinyl electricians tape and after unwrapping some of this, it's plain to see chaffing of the bare wires. Long and short is there is 12VDC leaving the main junction box but not reaching the basket controls. Nothing works in the basket as a result. Prior owner probably never ran this lift anywhere near maximum elevation so never stressed the wires as I did yesterday. The wire in question is 12/4AWG "SO" cord and I'll look around to see if I have some before making a purchase. Black, white, red, and green are very standard issue colors for three way switch installation on single phase power so should be a hardware store item. I'm going to pull a complete new run and be done with it as everything is brittle, painted over, and fragile. I'll have to check on availability of the other 24/16 gauge conductor cable as that is probably a special made item. Hate the thought of making my own but if cost prohibitive, that is exactly what I'll do; BTDT.
About $5 a foot
Yes, I was thinking I'd have about 5 hundred into the wire but that's alright if needed as I'm a long ways from being upside down in the machine I did a quick inventory of hydraulic hose at the shop tonight and have enough -6, and -8 R-17 hose to completely rehose the unit rather than await one to blow out. Looks like there may be a section of -10 on the machine but that's just a hazard of a guess and I have that too. Don't know the style of fittings as haven't broken anything loose yet, but they look like JIC connections at the cylinders. Thanks,
Are you planning on using this machine on the job. Just remember OSHA requires a certified inspection on boom lifts and also a daily inspection form must be filled out and on hand in the machine. I have enjoyed following this post. Good luck.
Thanks kindly. No to open usage on jobsites. It will be for my personal usage only. I'm going to maintain my own building and outbuildings with this so shouldn't require inspections.
Looks like I have at least a couple hundred feet of 12/4 "SOOW" cord at the shop left over from the initial build. We used to install a lot of 30/16 control cable at facilities but the encapsulating jacket was not environmentally resistant as it was designed for raceway installation. I can emulate that but would require some kind of outer jacket small enough to fit into the required spaces to avoid pinching bundles. Non metallic flexible conduit does not hold up well enough long term when it is basically used as a lanyard. Everything, (hydraulic, electrical) runs, or is bound together in the chain/trough which runs up the side of the boom and the gathering points. Not sure why but all the control box interior is spray painted white including the wiring. Don't know if this were done to preclude corrosion, or if a machinery resaler did this when the unit was repainted to that green color it is now, or after a repair. As mentioned there is a plethora of shoddy repairs done as far as wiring and that takes a while to sort out. This coupled with the wires being spray painted doesn't help matters but the point to point diagrams I've been able to obtain have been a great asset in the quest. For the most part they have been correct with a few exceptions which are probably local, or field repairs. Going to attempt to get this unit inside the shop this afternoon so I can be out of the ever changing weather this time of year. The boom does not leak down when setting idle so I'm comfortable having it in the shop, but will still support it with my gantry so I can have things under it. And as if I need another project, I'm going to look at a bulldozer this morning which is mentioned in another thread..... Thanks,
Quick scan on ebay, amazon, and a couple of other online wiring suppliers yields I can rewire this machine complete for about $600.00 in material costs, and a lot of time, (obviously). This is the route I'll go once the machine is proven.
Well, I got power back to the basket but things aren't as they should be. I did find a feed wire pulled apart in the questioned bundle and once scab repaired, the basket livened back up. However I only have forward on the controller no matter if selecting forward or reverse. Don't know what is going on there yet. For some reason I have also lost the ability to elevate, or lower the boom whether pushing the buttons, or electrically with the solenoids. I can still rotate the turntable, and drive the machine via the push buttons on the proportional valves, but cannot lift the boom which is down. The dump valves for both solenoid, and proportional valves are working, but I have completely lost the ability to raise, or lower the boom. It is almost like there is no hydraulic pressure behind those valves and the effort to manually push them in has changed greatly. The response earlier in the day with them was immediate and now once again, nothing. I've tried with basket, and ground position in control. Again the rotation, and driving the machine are normal with the manual pushbuttons so there has to be flow through the proportional valves. Also in basket control, I could not get the boom to raise, or rotate the turntable.
Having nothing in print of theory or operating principle of this machine leaves me in uncharted territory as far as wiring. I'm making progress however and sorting through all kinds of "hodge podge" repairs to the wiring system. Many of the replacement terminations are either corroded, or readily pull apart with little pressure applied to them citing poor crimping technique. Regardless, very little integrity to many of the landings and terminations in wiring. I'm beginning to believe this machine has been reworked extensively in it's lifetime. Speaking with the deceased prior owner's grandson, he thinks he remembers this lift "burning up", (electrically) many years ago and it going someplace local for repairs. This may stand to reason why the print for an 80F series, (which I believe this lift is) has discrepancies from what I'm actually seeing. Kind of a dead giveaway as the 80F series shows five relays in the main junction box, and the 60F series from the print provided by "Off" shows only four relays. This machine has four relays and no room on the interior string for a fifth within the enclosure. Sure wish I'd find a serial number to ascertain certainty, or possibly changes? Also wondering via my desktop troubleshooting if the hydraulic reservoir has depleted and the level is below the suction port of the hydraulic pump for the boom elevation? IIRC there are three or four suction ports from the main tank through it's sidewall feeding this pump which is three section. Though I have no way of knowing how much the boom lift cylinder leaks, I have raised the boom several times and it's known to leak around the packing. The valve definitely feels like there is no hydraulic pressure behind it and this is new. If the reservoir level is below the suction port of this pump section there would be no flow through the valve, but I don't have a hydraulic diagram of the machine so just guessing. More as I know it..... Thanks,
I believe the 5th relay dealt with the outriggers. There were two set of contacts, one set for "out" and another set for "down". Yours and a 60F would only have "out"
Thanks kindly and I agree. I was able to get a few things addressed and sorted over a couple of hours this morning. I did get the basket completely operational by cleaning some ground connections, and figuring out this unit needs solenoid coils on the proportioning valves. After verfying the command voltage was being applied correctly, I took after it drilling down to finding one of the leads broke at the coil itself and hanging in free space. These have been monkeyed with in the past as there is barely any encapsulation material on the magnet wire these are wound with at the entry point of the housing. There is absolutely no strain relief anyplace supporting the wire harness to the proportioning valves and this coupled with very brittle wiring makes for the issues I'm finding. Another issue I found was the latching relay plugged into the incorrect socket. It should have been on the left but was second from left. Only that left socket is wired for the reset command on pin 5 where the others are not. I'm going to investigate all six replacement coils and get that lift cylinder into a rebuild shop this next week. It really has taken to puking when raising or lowering the boom. Far too much to let it go. So far electrically it appears to be falling into line with expectations. I'll stay with it as want it to be right and do have a bit of room to spend getting it "up to snuf". You wouldn't have any other pertinent information on these either electrically, or mechanically would you? I continue to learn, but don't want to reinvent the wheel. Thanks,
I don't have an 80F manual, but it sounds like you have that already. Not sure what I have for schematics and build sheets, I'll have to look. One thing I do have that I always found invaluable when working on 80F's is a sort of internal schematic of all the different latching Potter/Broomfield relays they used. Also, somewhere under the boom, on top of the hydraulic swivel, is a set of electrical slip rings and carbon brushes. They were usually a source of trouble involving the lock out system.
Hi and thanks for your help. It IS appreciated as I really don't have any experience with these things. I have rented/contracted/used literally dozens of them over the years. Now retired I wanted a good one for my personal use and knew the former owner quite well. I always thought he maintained his older stuff pretty well but I'm starting to question..... Yes these things are loaded with P&B style relays. Usually a very reliable and stable platform to build from. When I was installing back up power systems my designs always called for them, Struthers-Dunn, and many times Allen-Bradley switchgear. That is until national contracts were awarded to OEM suppliers whom vendored the complete shebang..... It did turn out the hydraulic tank level was too low for the middle section of the hydraulic pump, (responsible for boom elevation) to pick up fluid. There is a distributor box on the side of the hydraulic tank with four suction lines for each section of the main hydraulic pump, and auxiliary hydraulic pump. This center section of the hydraulic pump's suction hose is in one of the two top suction ports of the distributor box which is gravity fed from the main tank. Trusting in the hydraulic level dipstick, I was mislead as the level was below the suction port. After dumping in anther 5 gallon bucket of AW-32, the boom came right back to life with manual, and electric controls. However this is when I discovered the fragility of the interconnecting wiring. I went to relocate one ground wire from the "boom down" coil and it broke free of it's mounting. After removing the retention face plate of the solenoid valves, I could see the hot melt glue which is support for the 30ga magnet wire the coils are supported with was missing. Not only was it missing on this coil, but four more of the original six also. Only one magnet coil was intact as it should be. This is what I was alluding to when speaking of the leads hanging in "free space", and unsupported. I don't know if there were originally cable restraints incorporated anyplace, but I know zip ties weren't so much in fashion when the machine was originally built. There are gobs of electrical tape, wire nuts, and crimp connectors aplenty under the enclosure and within the main junction, ground control, and basket control boxes which are loaded with these "repairs". Neither of the terminal strips in the basket control box are mounted and are just kinda laying in there. These are just some examples of the hill I've yet to surmount. I'm going to get the machine inside the shop and pull all the proportional solenoids and attempt to repot the loose wiring. If not successful, I'll either have these rewound, or purchase new. They are 21ohm which is common for Racine valves if they are still around. I got an email back from the hydraulic shop and they can do my cylinders anytime as the Covid thing has really got them reduced in workload. I do have the three manuals for an 80F series lift. JLG had them online but I actually prefer the prints you provided early on as they are better interpreted by a novice. The analogy is the same between the units meaning terminations, nomenclature, colors, etc. I had seen in the prints a slip ring assembly but didn't know where it is physically located. Crocus cloth, or heavy canvas sheet does a good job cleaning those up when used with a good contact cleaner. They can be troublesome for sure and I've been to a lot of sites not passing signals because of brushes worn out, corrosion, or cross contamination from lack of maintenance on them. How's that for a book????? Hope someone else is learning through this ordeal as I am. Working on things keeps me from going "stir crazy" with no meaningful employment any longer. Thanks,
Yesterday when I had the one proportional valve solenoid coil apart and in my hand, I made a mental note there were three "O" rings which keep the oil in the valve with this assembly. Given there are six valves in total with this assembly I, (up early always) ordered up a generic sealing ring kit shown here to cover the spectrum: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GSKKHQM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1R5RH6SRZN4Q4&psc=1 These should cover the bases of whatever I get into over the rehab of this machine. Years ago we used to wind coils and motors for repair needs, but that was in another life before everything seemingly was being contracted out. I still have a coil winder, (someplace) but don't know if it will adapt to this style which is kind of like a bobbin for a sewing machine. Looking through old charts it looks like there is about 367ft of wire on these coils to attain the roughly 21ohm measurement. Of course this is just sideline guessing as I've not really delved into actual measurements with precision unless one considers standing beside something with a cheap multimeter and alligator clips precision..... Going to check with a supplier for JLG parts today, and a place we used to contract for sublet work to ascertain whether this is even justifiable to tool up for. It may be beneficial to purchase replacement parts and be done.....
Not beneficial to replace wholesale if the existing can be repaired locally. $134.00 each is a bit steep in my book. Never was one with more money than brains, (albeit hardheaded) so I'll see about repairing the existing units before moving further. Stay tuned and thanks,
This single coil with the leads pulled out will be the only one needing real addressing. The others should clean up relatively easy as all are saturated in hydraulic oil from leaking/seeping "O" ring seals. All ohm out very closely to one another. I am only going to show the one coil which is in the "boom down" position but the others are in the same condition although they retain their respective leads. Here is a shot of the valve prior to pulling from the body and just after the retaining face plate is removed. As you can see there is no support to the leads which exit the housing/coil assembly. The bottom valve is the "boom down" coil which has it's leads broken off: This is the valve assembly pulled from the machine. Looking closely you can see the two 28AWG wire leads protruding from the case: As can be seen there is nothing supporting the 16AWG wire leads which were soldered to these much smaller leads. This is the coil internal to the valve assembly with the insulating wrap mostly removed. Hydraulic oil had disintegrated the adhesive bond of this white insulating wrap: Here is another view of the coil which closely resembles a sewing machine "bobbin" showing the parted leads: All the coils ohm out very close to one another meaning 21.226ohms @ 70 degrees Fahrenheit. This should equate to 319.81 feet but who's counting? Once that "O" ring kit comes in I'll get these addressed and cleaned up. I still have insulating coil wrap and varnish, so this shouldn't be too painful to accomplish and get things back reliable. I do need to order fresh solvent to clean up the coils as it doesn't last that long evaporating quickly once opened.
Here's that P/B relay stuff
How about a Racine Valve manual?
Thanks a bunch. Both of those will be great assets to have in the arsenal to maintaining this thing. I've never been one to throw in the towel easily and certainly don't intend to with this machine, but want to maintain it to the best of my ability. I'm not one that likes to view schematics on a computer screen but rather have the print in front of me with both a shop copy, and an office copy. Paperwork heavy I know but don't have to worry about getting something dirty. Thanks kindly,
Located an adequate length of 16/30 "SOOW" cable for restringing the boom assembly. The extra conductors will allow for mounting of platform, and worklights in/on the basket which will be LED types to stay within the lower ampacity confines of the smaller wiring.
having a few spare wires in the bundle never hurt either. Down the road when one breaks, you switch to a new, unused wire.
Yes, they can be a "godsend" in a time of crisis if they are correctly identified or isolated on the prints so other's know they are there and purpose. Many times this isn't done and it's a headache ringing wires to find non continuity ends, or terminations.
I really put the "hurts" to the existing wiring when I raised the boom full stroke. I didn't photo it but many conductors, (wires) are broken or pulled apart at the cable anchors where the boom hinges from the main frame to the actual boom. This of course is where the cable flexes as the boom is elevated or lowered. The original soft and supple EPDM jacket of the cable isn't so soft any longer and the boom operation has taken it's toll..... I ordered a couple rolls of "Kapton" tape in 1/2", and 1" width today as mine is getting some age on so time for fresh.
I found out just how heavy this SOB is today by parking where I shouldn't have..... On a slight downward incline with the steering axle and couterweight over it. It only sunk about four inches into the ground setting overnight given the rains of late. It wouldn't pull itself out, (one wheel wonder) so had to cable up with my 12K cable winch into the receiver hitch on my Durango for some tugging. This only served to pull the Durango backwards under the pull, so I chained to a tree in the yard and that gave the anchorage needed. If I'd have had someone standing on the service brakes it would have been fine I'm sure, but I was alone so used the next best option. Anyway the lift walked right out of the divots and I put everything away without further adieu. I would have thought however both drive wheels would have been pulling unless there is a weak link someplace in that chain; (flow divider)? Regardless I've got wiring issues to address/rectify first and not going any further than this first. Did learn another lesson with quality of late too: On Saturday I did a full tuning of the engine with Motorcraft spark plugs. One of them went near 45min of run time before ceasing to fire on #3 cylinder. Finding this a bit odd, I replaced with the original Motorcraft spark plug that had resided there to restore normal running. Another hour and a half or so, #1 cylinder ceases to fire? I called "********" with this one, pulled the plugs, and replaced them with Champion. I used the locally owned "Carquest" store for a vendor so I'll get them credited back to my account. I think the engine actually runs better now than it did with the fresh Motorcraft plugs installed. Regardless, plugs, points, condensor, (capacitor) wires, cap, rotor are all new along with the ignition coil and ballast resistor. It should be running right with a good tuning..... Can't find a timing mark anyplace and it's probably on the bottom of the flywheel but I've not looked.
Sorry to say good luck with the Champoons, I stopped using them for the same due causes twenty years ago switched up to NGK as Champoons and Motorcraps are now as bad as each other or worse than Prestolite Ign Products decades ago. AC Delco was another trusted name yet it also has bad reviews now.
Don't I know it. I asked for Bosch, or NGK but they didn't have them and the engine was running very sick. It's underpowered as is but with only hitting on three, was very bad. To the tune of not wanting to start. Yup, once Federal-Mogul got their hands into anything, the brands usually went to pot. Bosch seems to be doing the same just as Stanley did, Black and Decker did, etc..... All about the $$$ with complete disregard to retaining quality. Even Carquest has sold out to Advance Auto Parts. Walk in and try to get a mechanical fuel pump, (not one in the store) intake gasket set for a 70's SBC, Ford, or Chrysler, (warehouse has it and be here in the morning) sealed beam headlight bulbs, etc. Corporate structure is only interested in fast moving items with disregard to what got them where they are. Once the assets are stripped, the entity is done away with. Sustainability does not seem to be a factor.
My first choice on plugs is nippondenso, if you can find them for that application.
May as well update this thread a bit. I soldered new leads onto the broken actuator coils after degreasing them in an electronics cleaning bath. All went well and operation is now normal for both "up", and "down" functions of the boom. I haven't yet received the ordered "O" ring sealing kits, but in the interim I robbed the stock at a local implement dealer. After cleaning the coils the new wire leads soldered easily and I then "potted" the assembly with a hot melt insulating adhesive marketed for the purpose. Don't really think they'll go anyplace in the short term although there will be strain reliefs added to ensure they don't "flop around" from the vibration they must endure. The engine starts very easily in the high 20's temperature we've been experiencing of late. Just a few revolutions of the fan and she roars to life. I need to feather the electric solenoid choke for about five seconds till the engine stabilizes and then no further interaction is required. I did find an intermittent circuit breaker in the basket which is inline for the 12VDC to the controls. This thing is very unreliable so is going to be replaced as will all the others. The amperage stamps on their respective faces are far gone and only reading the stencil impressions on their sides is indicative of their respective current ratings. God only knows if they would actually work..... Given the amount of corrosion in this machine's electrical systems, I'm going to replace, (or have for ready spares) all four P&B style relays, their respective sockets, circuit breakers, and most likely a couple of other toggle switches in the basket which are "sloppy" in feel". The fun never ends......
Bit of a setback today as I've once again lost ability to raise the boom. Neither electric control, nor manual use of the proportional valves have any effect. I may have blown the seals in the lift cylinder bore as all other functions of the proportional valve bank operate normally, as do the solenoid actuated valve functions. It is only the boom raising that is inoperable with both turntable swing, and driving wheels sharing that same oil supply and operating normally. This lift cylinder needs rebuilt regardless citing external leakage and the schedule may be hastened. At first I thought a blown hose, but no streaming oil anyplace when attempting to raise the boom, and a substantially decreased load on the engine when commanding either up, or down action of the boom. Basically that section is not building hydraulic pressure and hopefully I'll get into it tomorrow.
Ooops
"It's always something" as Gilda Radner used to say, but I'm looking to force failures of this equipment prior to placing it back into service. Better to fail here than out someplace else remote. I do hope it's just packings and seals which have been expended rather than something major. This cylinder is heavy as will getting the boom raised and blocked so it can be extracted. Just another chapter of the fun never ends I guess.....
Appears to be the socket the selector relay plugs into citing corrosion. I can make the boom lift but not consistently. The coil connections are corroded in this particular socket and replacements are on order so very well may be an easy repair with a replacement. I did order the four relays, and four sockets along with wire terminations as I don't like landing bare stripped ends. Should see this stuff soon. Now being able to raise the boom hydraulically, it will be much easier and faster to fabricate a weldment to support it elevated while I remove the cylinder for rebuild.
You certainly found a way to keep busy when you bought this lift. I have some winter maintanence work to do on my lift as well. Tires will be my first point to address, followed by a dripping valve body in the hydraulics case. Then a general cleaning and degreasing. I am fairly fortunate that my wiring looks to be in pretty much original condition and nobody has been tampering with it. I do have to rebuild one of the steering cylinder pins as previous owner never greased it and it's sloppy. Keep up the good work. I've enjoyed following your progress.
You'll never be bored with an 80F sitting in the yard.
Appreciate the feedback. Haven't been bored with it as of yet..... Most times on the internet one only reads success stories leaving out the particulars of direction, and what achieved the success. Seldom are true gains and setbacks posted. I would rather involve the audience and give them a chance to participate if they wish. Cheap entertainment if nothing else for the reader. It's been an enjoyable exercise for me to work with this lift. Having no experience in this type equipment opens up a new chapter to learn something, and I'll be able to make use of the finished product. Once this lift is back to dependable status, I'll address some badly needed maintenance issues also. It appears to have been a stranger to a grease gun for a long time as several pivot point bushings are worn. I have a line boring setup and bore welder and if this service is required to true things back up, I can cover that "in house"; but a return to reliable operation is first. Thanks,
Looks like the relays and sockets have shipped, so should see them yet this week. Expecting to see the control cable(s) yet this week also. Talked to a gent out west whom rebuilds industrial joysticks and I'm going to pull them during the rewire, send them off for testing/evaluation, and given any attention they may require. These actually work, but the drive is "notchy" in feel and operation. I'm electing to replace all the toggle switches in the basket citing age, exposure, and compromised rubber sealing surfaces also. Talked to the hydraulic shop yesterday whom has researched the kit to rebuild the lift cylinder(s), and rotary coupler as it's a known potential leak point. Will save some time if they order the rebuild kit(s) as these kits are all inclusive and the hydraulic shop doesn't carry every seal needed in their inventory. I don't actually know if the rotary coupler is leaking or not, but will look when removing the lift cylinder after the boom is supported. The area is such a wet mess from cylinder gland leakage, it will require clean up prior to going any further. Also spent some time on the phone talking with a tube bender friend. He is willing to bend a new cage to use for the platform so looks like I'll just cut the existing one free from it's base and replace complete. I've found two vertical tubes rusted through and a couple more crushed/bent so electing to go the best route and replace. Many will look at this as a lot of work for an old lift I'm sure. But, for what I'm into it for, and the use I'll obtain from the finished product, it's worth the effort/expense to me. I really don't care to erect scaffolding any longer either..... Thanks,
"Off"; Figured I'd go ahead and add this to your original drawing and maybe it'll help someone else down the road: Part numbers on the photo are P&B numbers and current. These part numbers are for 12VDC coils only. There are also 24VDC coils available, along with several other variances.
Didn't really work with the lift yesterday at all. Still awaiting the relays, sockets, and a couple sections of SOOW cord/cable. I was able to find a set of test sockets and cables I formerly tested for contact "bounce" with these type relays as dirty or pitted contacts readily show up with an oscilloscope. Test equipment can be your friend when used properly for diagnosis. I'm quite certain all four of these relays will be better off retired from service citing physical appearance. You don't dare "file" or clean up the contact points in these things as the service life is exponentially shortened when you do if they're used at near capacity..... Also ordered, (via ebay) 1000 pieces of 4:1 adhesive lined shrink tube in black of 5/16", and 3/8" diameter size. This along with a couple boxes of bare fork type terminals to fit both 12AWG, and 16AWG wiring. These will environmentally protect and support my wire terminations at their respective lands which are either terminal strips, or direct mechanical fastners. Far too many years behind me chasing broken wires and faulty/corroded bare terminations to not follow this simple rule. More to follow. Thanks,
Lost all up and down hydraulic functions to the boom yesterday. Everything else in the unit works. Cannot get the boom to elevate, nor descend either electrically, nor manually via the push buttons on the proportional control valves. It is as if I've lost pilot pressure within this individual valve section as even the effort required to depress the buttons is less than it was. Other functions such as drive, swing, telescope are all normal. It is only this lift section acting up. Here is a hydraulic diagram of the lift circuit: To attempt isolation of this area of the valve, I opened the manual descent valves and am able to jack the boom up with a floor jack, close the valves and the boom remains in position. I cannot however drive it back down with the proportional valves so obviously no oil is flowing. I have rebuilt and checked all the solenoid coils and renewed all sealing rings upon reassembly of the mating parts. I suppose I could have cut or nicked a sealing ring someplace putting these two assemblies back together, and the assumption would be they do work in unison, but the challenge continues. The proportional valves look to be serial flow and with sections fore and aft of the lift valve section working correctly, leads me to suspect only this lift valve section is problematic. Due to packaging I cannot gain access to the spool to manually actuate it but I suspect it is not moving from the centered position due to pilot pressure lacking. That is just an assumption however. It would be nice if the proportional valve bank did have a way for manual operation from external input and I suppose they do with the pushbuttons, but a simple lever or manual plunger directly acting on the valve spool would be useful in this scenario. Kinda/Sorta like a tractor loader valve acts directly upon the spool.
I'm wondering if the high pressure oil filter used in this hydraulic system is a "full flow", or "bypass" system? I installed new "O" rings onto the solenoid poppet valves controlling the elevate and descend functions but they are still not operational. Shown in this hydraulic flow diagram I cannot tell the answer to the question I pose: Starting to wonder if I have have a stuck spool in the main valve, or internal leakage in the "Force Amplifier" section of the valve precluding the main spool from shifting? Drilling down through information provided I'm able to generate a test scheme to break out individual sections and will follow that scenario after ruling out the easier tasks. Regardless, the drive, swing, and telescope functions work fine but the boom refuses to lift either through solenoid control, or manual operation of the poppet valves. All the working functions share the same 24gpm rating section of the main hydraulic pump so I'm thinking the problem is isolated to the boom lift valve. Don't know how parts availability will be for this thing yet as the JLG vendor is closed for the holidays and Racine was sold to Bosch back in 1997, and many valves/parts obsoleted. Parked the lift outside for a good cold soak and fires right up at 10 degrees Fahrenheit with little effort. Hold the electric choke toggle down, push the start button and engine cranks to life, release choke toggle about 5 seconds later and the engine smooths out nicely.
In the Racine valve manual I attached to post #88, figure #8, at the bottom of the valve section is a label "null adjustment". Find this on your lift valve section. Loosen off the lock nut (1/2" wrench) and screw in the Allen head screw all the way. The function should start to move in one direction. screwing out should start the function moving in the other direction. You can hear a function start long before you can see it move. On a properly working valve, this adjustment should be left at the center point between the starting point of each function. Usually about 3 turns from one to the other. If you get no response at all while doing this, you have a broken spring in the flow control part of the pilot section. See figure 9, for the circled part marked "Pressure Compensator" its just a little spring.
Thanks and exactly where I was moving to. I changed the sealing rings the other day with no response from the valve at all. Given the problem did not reveal itself till a wire broke free from a solenoid coil and I removed it to facilitate repairs, I was remaining in this area till proven otherwise. The function worked well prior to this happening. I've read the null adjust procedure several times but did not want to go there quite yet. When I depress one of the manual operator buttons I can hear a function attempting to operate whether it's up, or down of the boom command. Not a lot, but it is detectable in the engine tone, or note. This is where I was going with internal valve leakage in the "Force Amplifier" section as I don't think there is enough pressure to displace the sliding piston causing action of the push pin to upset the balance of the spool valve causing it to shift position. Looks like the bottom section of the valve drops off and just a few "O" rings needed to reseal if that spring needs replaced. Is there enough mechanical pressure available through the compression springs to mechanically shift that spool by cranking or loosening the "null" point? Is that push pin which bears upon the spool mechanically attached to anything, or is it hydraulically shifted? Thanks for jumping in. Experience is always a great teacher.
The null adjustment seems to work on pilot pressure, not mechanical force. If the null adjusting gets zero response, that spring is broken.
Thanks a bunch!! Wanted to verify my suspicion(s) before getting off on a wayward path. I'll be out there later today and will give it a try and report back.
Don't rightly know quite what to think. Adjusted the null off center and the boom raised immediately. Adjusted the other extreme and boom readily descended. Recentered adjustment for null position to where it is not loading the engine at rest, and now the push buttons work as there are supposed to. Going to rewire, then see if it works electrically also. Almost suspect I had a frozen Spool in the main valve. I have not changed the hydraulic oil, and have no history other than setting for a long time of the original. Simple fix so far.
a piece of dirt got in the wrong place when you resealed it. The null adjustment worked it out. You have to work real clean on those valves.
Huh????? You aren't insinuating that a workspace consisting of a pulverized into dirt gravel parking lot with a stiff 15mph breeze crossing over a heavily traveled state highway isn't "sterile" in cleanliness are you????? Not having immediate access to "CapPlugs", I went the trouble to stuff a cotton shop towel in the spaces vacated by the solenoid assemblies while I used non clorinated circuit board cleaner to degrease the "bobbins", followed by an isopropyl bath to remove any residue. LOL. Most everything on this machine is a dirty, greasy, and gritty SOB from lack on any kind of maintenance as it's cheaper to dump oil in it than repair the leaks, ( I suppose). There are two hydraulic hoses from the top of the proportial valves leaking at their respective crimp(s) retaining their ends and the oil stream is right down the face and behind the solenoid valve retaining plates saturating the solenoid coils which are open at their front. This will require hose replacement(s) which I have but need to order additional ends for quantity required. Here again is a photo of the solenoid coils in the boom lift section: These have now been properly repaired and operate well. I did not seal them and do not know if they originally were? With exception of the auxiliary hydraulic pump, flashing beacon lamp, and back up horn, all functions appear to be operational. I have a plethora of jumper wires installed to complete circuit runs for broken, or compromised wire runs, and several wraps of friction tape to insulate formerly bare copper strands where the insulation has deteriorated, and broken/fallen away. Now comfortable with the machine's operational status, and foreseeable future/tenure, I'll get it a good douche bath with the steam cleaner next week to make things more conducive to a nice working atmosphere. Couple of neighborhood kids need a job so going to have them remove the sheet metal enclosing the engine, and radiator surround, then sandblast the machine clean and get it painted. Hopefully with the boom elevation problem solved, I can extract the cylinder and have it rebuilt this next week too: I need this lift to reinstall a panel taken off my building, (in the upper right of the photo) due to recent high winds. You can see the gantry I'll use to support the boom while I lift the cylinder out with my skid steer: At the ready once the machine is cleaned and painted I have enough SOOW wire in quantity to rewire the machine complete. Also have all new P&B relays, sockets, circuit breakers, main disconnect switch, and several toggle switches to replace originals. So much of the original hardware is fragile from exposure over the years so better to rebuild this way and know what I've got in the end. Really appreciate the assist "Off". Thanks,
You weren't able to ascertain whether the hydraulic filtration routed through the high pressure filter is full flow or bypass type have you?
Started removing the former owner's decals. The deceased owned the local "Overhead Door Co." franchise for many years: Heat gun and sharpened scraper do pretty well but the coating is very thick with the decal underneath the paint. Steel substrate appears to be pretty straight too.
lol, sometimes there's a fine line between honesty and cruelty. But I meant to be honest, not cruel. The thank you is much appreciated. The HP filter I believe is full flow. They never gave any trouble at all btw. The coils were not sealed originally. Just wound, coated wire with a piece of white electrical tape wrapped around the outside to hold it all in. I always mounted a terminal strip right beside the valve body to make wiring easier. I did that to every F, G, & H series I worked on. There's a little hole in the valve face when you take off a pilot section that just keeps pissing oil, for ever. A pencil fits that hole, works perfectly.
I like the terminal strip idea as there is a lot of strain from wires hanging in free space coupled with vibration of the machine in the original design. Surprises me it got out of engineering, let alone production that way. I addressed each of those coils and the white wrap tape just fell off of each as the oil saturation did away with the adhesive bond long ago. After swishing them around in a vat of board cleaner, then 91% isopropyl and allowing to dry, I then installed small shrink tube over the magnet wire to 16AWG wire connection and shrunk it down. This of course offers great rigidity and integrity to the connection. The one coil with broken wires was the sole one needing resoldered of the leads back onto, but only after ensuring it's resistance reading was very close to the other coils at their respective solder joints which is 21.29 ohms at the then current ambient temperature. A slender bead of non conductive adhesive was then placed across the coil winding to keep it from having possibility of becoming loose finally wrapping the coil with silicone adhesive xfmr wrapping tape in a double wrap. I did order a spool of 28AWG magnet wire to rewind any of these should they present problems in the future. Never have worked with piloted hydraulics in the past, but know the theory well and found your guidance most beneficial. It was in no way looked down upon as too elementary. No worries about talking straight with me. I built a career being neither politically correct, nor giving a rats ass whom liked, or didn't like me. Not meaning arrogance but I was good at what I did, (as I think you are) and always told it the way it was without exception being sometimes quite blunt with azzwipes whom were management. It can be difficult walking into a problem you've been assigned to repair and have to work with stumped normal maintaining technicians whom are simply at a standstill when you don't know what they've been through. Wanting to do something they've already done nearly always garners or brings out a disrepectful attitude, but this I attribute to frustration, or disappointment in oneself. Sometimes you can change the dynamic, the atmosphere, or the conditions, but one always has to work with what they've got whether positive, or negative. The goal is the same; get something operational that is not, and returned to service. I've always entertained fresh, or new ideas as a new perspective is sometimes quite a useful tool in the arsenal. You've been a true asset in getting this lift to where it is now; and it is appreciated. I plan to rebuild this until it is reliable as it will be very useful to me in the future and I have the equipment to move it when needed. Those diagrams you had attached have given me both an elementary, and thorough understanding of how the controls and wire terminations work which is enough to attain my goal. Up to you but feel free to PM your email address and I'll put my appreciation into direct compensation for your input. I will continue to update this thread as I procede along the path and with this boom raising issue sorted, it should pick up the pace. Thanks,
I'm not looking for compensation. A thank you is more than what's required or expected. I haven't laid my hands on an "F" series JLG in over 22 years. It feels good to use that knowledge once in a while. Thank you. & good luck with your machine.
Forgot to mention that I did notice a couple of quick coupler connections with one being on the high pressure filter head, and the other on the boom lift cylinder. Both were under painted over rubber dust caps. These appear to be 1/4" size and I didn't look close enough to ascertain if "A", or "B" series but I have both female style couplers. I only noticed these two, but they will be an asset to easily set system pressures with once I get to that point. Not about to stab a test gauge onto that test port directly in the well the boom descends into without being supported overhead. Not going to trust unproven safety's at this point. I do not see these shown in the parts diagram for the machine either, so maybe a customer spec item?
Every cylinder (except steer & axle retract) is protected by a lock valve that makes accidental movement pretty much impossible. Hydraulic pressure is required to release a function before it will move, so don't worry too much about plugging in a gauge. There should be 3 or 4 of those test ports on your machine. A 2500 PSI gauge will do ya. Highest you'll see is about 2100 PSI.
Thanks for the clarification. I had seen the valve shown in the red circle to which I assumed was a piloted check valve requiring pressure to lift the check from it's seat to allow oil flow. This check valve is actually located within the engine compartment by the solenoid valves bank. The check valve shown in the orange circle disallows oil flow should a hydraulic hose rupture and is located in the steel piping prior to the flexible hose connections at the cylinder base: Very interesting the amount of safety's incorporated into this system, but it very well makes sense. Also interesting the role the "Manual Descent Circuit" plays too. With the boom now up, I can also see that rotary slip ring assembly for access. I will be addressing that shortly to ensure it is conducting adequately. I need to put an order together for hydraulic hose fittings to get that part moving along also. I have ample stock of 100R17 hose, (3000 psi) but not sure on end types and quantities. I'll have to dig for that as my fittings are in plastic tubs and not cabinets. Hydraulic shop has all the seals and such for rebuilding the cylinders I haul in; just have to get them extracted from the machine.
Looked all over the machine today and only find the two test ports and they are both 1/4" "A" series quick connects. The boom however is still in the air and another port may be well above my head level. Figures everything I have is "B" series but no problem to get some coming. Found a 3K, two 5K, and a 10K liquid filled gauges removed from equipments over the years so will use them after ensuring accuracy, along with needle valves for isolation and loading. I also have a test set for automotive power steering and another for setting pressures in truck mounted equipments such as dump bodies, spreaders, etc. so can probably come up with something. I don't rob one test setup to shore up another but rather order parts to have a dedicated and complete setup at the ready when needed.
Picked up two 1/4" "A" series quick couplers but only had to pay for a single. They had one that had been physically scratched up a bit so couldn't be sold at retail; hence donated for my cause. Picked up a few other items while there to convert from BSPP to NPT on another project I'm working also. Snowing and icing right now so may not get much, (if anything) done tonight....
No joy today as the boom lift portion ceased working again. I can still raise and lower it via adjusting the "null", but no reaction from the pushbuttons, or joystick, or toggle switch. I took the solenoids apart again this morning and replaced the "O" rings again, but seen nothing wrong with the former. Deciding to get the oil warm, I then ran the boom all the way down lifting the drive wheels without effort via adjusting the "null" to force the hydraulics to spill over the relief valve with the boom against it's decent stop, and the engine heavily loaded. When the valve bodies reached 125F I backed off the null and tried the pushbutton to raise the boom. There was attempt at operation as it dropped the wheels and took up the slack in the boom sections but wasn't strong enough to raise the boom. I then adjusted the null manually and the boom raised right up. Getting tired of screwing with this I removed the end plug, (#4 in diagram) to access the main spool. I can depress this spool with virtually no pressure against it's centering spring in the other end. The spool immediately returns to center position as it should. I'm assuming I still have a pilot pressure problem. Looking at this breakout: "O" rings denoted in figures 27, 37, 33, and 32, have all been renewed, twice. These are the only sealing rings which have been disturbed and/or replaced. Again the originals did not present a problem until the coil wire in the lower solenoid broke free from it's interconnection to the coil itself. I did not physically watch to see if the main spool moves with adjustment of the "null", but will with the engine not running. I will need to have the end cap removed, (#4 in diagram) to see this action. Can't run the machine with cap removed due to oil flow through the pilot section. #24 in the diagram is a plug right in the pilot pressure passage it appears and I could gauge into it and check for pressure there. Getting close I know but sure is trying on patience; however I am learning a lot as never have been into one of these before so not so bad. We'll all have a good laugh when it's all said and done reflecting on how simple the problem was.
Tapped into the boom raise port and this is what I've found: Little bit of progress after delving deeper: Finally getting somewhere: I've discovered the mercury switch is operational also. It probably needs adjusted but I can get the boom to about 14' above the shop floor before it ceases raising. Thanks,
Great read! I'm starting my own journey on a 40HT, mostly functional with a few exceptions. The electric controls I can figure out, but the valve blocks are new to me. Luckily everything is obsolete on mine as well! Regardless, your story has given me the motivation to dig in and fix it rather than push it into my yard and set it on fire. Cheers!
The lift continues to start easily in the coldest of weather and everything is working. Been too busy to work with it much further but I do want to "tidy" up a few loose ends. When and if you get into troubleshooting those proportional valves a 9VDC battery, VOM, and test leads can be your friend independent upon panel control(s). Many times separation and isolation is a good thing.....
instead of the 9v, I was using one of those amazon jump starter batteries that outputs 12v for boost, just to be sure I was getting right volts to saturate the coil. maybe I am overthinking it
You can certainly do that but I would put an inline circuit protection, (fuse) in the circuit you've created. You get a shorted coil with all the amperage a jump starter pack provides and things could not go so well once the smoke stops coming out. A small 9VDC battery doesn't have the "dead short", or "locked rotor" current capacity a starter pack does. A separate power supply for testing coils is always a very good idea.
There is quite a bit of power available in a fresh 9VDC cell and saturating of a coil works wonders to instill motivation such as shown here:
Well you got my stew simmering again on the lift. I went ahead and found a nickle plated brass marine terminal strip and ordered up 800' of type SXL 16ga stranded wire, (several colors) along with adhesive lined heat shrink ring terminals to rewire this engine compartment housing which is a botched mess. I really don't like strung and unrestrained wire hanging in free space.
Went to move this lift yesterday as needed the space to park a truck inside anticipating the colder temperatures approaching and for some reason I noticed a faint stamping under layers of paint I'd not seen before on the machine frame. Turns out it is the serial number of the machine which up to this point I've not known as the tag is not discernible. Armed with this information I can get correct parts without guessing as the servicing dealer around here is not too happy needing to research for possibilities. He is going to allow me to take a copy of a point to point wiring diagram of the machine so that should save some effort as it's been a real PIA reinventing the wheel with this lift so far with "OFF" being a great assist. Wire spools have shipped with the exception of one spool with tracer color. That one will ship next week. Ring terminations have all shipped but the butt splices will on the 24th. That is fine as I have bare splices and adhesive lined shrink tube already. The ready made items are just faster to use.
Nice find! When you have a serial number, your JLG dealer can go back to JLG with it and get you all kinda of good information.
How does JLG dealer service work? when I search on their site, it only shows me Sunbelt and United Rental and the like. Mine is a 1986 40HT and I just figured there was no hope in getting real parts support. Thanks!
Well, I would start by going to JLG.com, there is a place where you can download manuals for your 40HT. Once on JLG.com, look for a heading: JLG® Service, Operator and Parts Manuals Available Online then look for: "Explore the following online manuals today" then pick "JLG" out of the choices then pick "boom lifts" and that will give you list. Find 40HT, and click on it. Once you have a parts manual, and find the part number of what you need, Google that part number. It may be available from an "aftermarket" supplier at a greatly reduced price. And yes, the major equipment rental companies are all going to be JLG dealers, and their parts people can help you. They will like you much better when you have part numbers. Edit: I see your other post now, looks like you found the manuals. The dealers also have mechanics who can help you with repairs if needed. They can tap into a "tech line" and get help directly from JLG.
Today I received the ring terminations, (#6, #8 in red, and blue) "A" series M&F coupler with dust seals to build a hydraulic test set for for this machine, and several quality environmental sealed toggle switches for the basket which are exposed to weather. Still awaiting the butt splices in both red, and blue. The 16ga wiring, and three different widths of friction tape, (I'm old school) should arrive next week. I have rolls of convoluted loom, (conduit) both split and solid in three different sizes also, but need to order ends and clamps for this now thinking about it.
-8 degrees this morning and this lift fired up just as if it were 30 degrees although the engine cranks a bit slower. It has a new group "31" Interstate battery installed and kept on a maintainer so plenty of starting power. Hydraulics groaned a bit which is expected but I didn't cycle anything. Just wanted to see if the lift would start.
Wire has shipped. No word on the friction and self vulcanizing tape(s) yet. Also ordered a couple cans of electrical encapsulating/conformal coating/compound today to seal/protect the wiring terminations in the man basket interconnection/junction box. Only going to do this once.
Wire arrived today and is much nicer, (quality) being automotive engine compartment grade than standard THHN, or MTW. Jacket is very soft and supple with ambient temperatue being 7 degrees F outdoors and the wire outside on the open front porch. Project t is coming together.
Having the serial number for the machine allowed ordering of the correct and needed cylinder resealing kits. I asked if they had any manuals for this machine and they did not. However the parts guy asked JLG direct for soft copies which they provided and were then forwarded to me. I now have the parts, maintenance, and owner's manuals within the serial number range of the lift so better than before. Forecast is for warmer weather this next week so I'd like to entertain getting a bit more wrapped up.
Cancelled the order for the cylinder seal kits from JLG. Found the same kits in the aftermarket for $212.72 less expensive so going that way. Should have them on Monday. If the snow continues to melt off I'll prop the boom up into a large tree out back and extract the cylinders to get them into the shop for teardown.
It was really nice today and I was bored so installed a new toggle switch in the man basket for ignition to eliminate the intermittent original, and built up a new test gauge set to use for the hydraulics on this machine. I can now snap the correct coupler onto the test ports without looking for, or building up something to use for the task. Also found a scratchy swing pot so going to remove it and attempt to clean/lube with contact cleaner and order another if it doesn't perform satisfactorily. As of now it attempts to work 100%, but sometimes takes a bit of "jiggling" to make it operate. When working it is very smooth and linear as are all functions.
Found the compromised wire which was the source of the intermittent operation of the "swing" control from the basket. The wiring running into the flexible chain trough beside the boom was severed and vibration would both part the wires, and bring them together citing bundle tension. No worries as all of this will be addressed with the new 16/24 control cable replacement. I now have all installed electrical functions operating normally and reliably. There are the remnants of the rotary beacon lamp on the rear of the boom which will be replaced, but I have yet to order one. The wire supplying power to this is operational through the toggle switch in the basket. Think I'll say "thanks" for the help and wish the best to all as I bid adieu.
I've enjoyed following your posts here @1693TA . I've never gotten into as big of a project as you are taking on with your lift, but I have been taking notes as you discover different issues and how you correct them. I have an old JLG as well and just knowing how to diagnose things, or where to start looking is highly valuable information. Thank you for sharing your experiences with resurrecting your old machine. I'm glad it went to someone like you and not off to a scrap yard.
Had another little problem with this lift which was minor but annoying. It being only 2wd and very heavy, it was having a difficult time climbing the slightest of incline. One drive wheel would stall out consistently and the other occasionally. Got tired real quick of winching this big ole sumbitch around too. Yapping with a buddy whom formerly worked at a JLG dealer in the Chicago area, he sent me service/training manuals on the "F" series hydraulics in both Racine, and Eaton. With this information, I was able to accurately set system pressures which were all over the board, locate a defective check valve in the main pump discharge line, balance the drive wheels counterbalance valves correctly, and generally get the machine to perform as designed. It worked very well on flat terrain but again, wouldn't climb the slightest of inclines easily. Armed with this information pertinent to the machine and having the testing equipment to isolate and troubleshoot I took after it. I plumbed in two flow meters, restriction valves, and gauges to measure things. Ultimately I discovered with both wheels locked via ratchet straps to timbers the tires were resting upon precluding rotation, the left rear, (looking from the rear) was stalling easily. Both drive wheels were equal in pull till the hydraulic drive pressure was increased to 1250psi indicated at which the left rear tire would cease pulling. Obviously this wheel motor was slipping or bypassing fluid internally as the flow was still there. Removing this drive wheel from the system through isolation, I was able to apply 2000 psi to the other wheel easily with minimal internal leakage. Isolating the right drive wheel the system again would only achieve 1250 psi again. Looking at the flow meters, I was running about 6gpm through the system and this left rear drive motor was bypassing almost four gpm internally while the motor was stalled. Rebuild kits, or replacement motors are NLA so I go online and found a pair of drive motors .1ci larger in size and ordered them. With the replacement motors installed, actions and reactions are smooth and predictable and the wheel slip is gone. While the machine is still very heavy, the very same inclines it would not climb are easily surmounted. All good I suppose. I've not converted to diesel as of yet but that is in the future as this gasoline engine is tired and very underpowered for the unit. Manual sent me: Motors out. Yellow one is bad. Apparently black one has been rebuilt, or replaced at some point: Defective motor replaced: Counterbalance valve(s) to adjust drive wheel actions. Yellow circle are hydraulic lines directly from the spool valve section driving the machine: Looks a bit better after everything was pressure washed clean. Lot of dirt and oil of course was removed.
Have you tried to drive this lift onto a deck over trailer before or after your drive motor repair? After reading your post about the inability to mount a hill, I'm wondering if I have a similar problem with my lift. I can't drive up onto a standard deck over trailer, like a deck over gooseneck, or deck over tag equipment trailer. Because of loading issues, I ended up buying a low deck equipment trailer to haul my lift on, and somedays, I have issues getting up those ramps. Now you have me thinking I might have bigger issues related to either flow, or a motor bypassing. Just one more thing to add to the list.
I have not as of yet. This thing is so heavy it is much easier to climb any incline with the engine end over the drive wheels. If rotated the opposite way, it's a bit light on the drive wheels. The winch for my semi trailer is remote controlled so if it won't climb the ramps to the deck, I'll winch it up. Don't know if it would be a voluntary effort or not by it's own power. If you have two or more drive wheels stalling, and you know your system pressure is within specifications, it could be either a counterbalance valve, or drive motors as your drive wheels should not operate independent of each other. If you have only one, or possibly two drive wheels stalling, (4X4) but stalling together, I'd certainly look at the counterbalance valves. Only plumbing in pressure gauges and flow meters will tell for certain. However, system relief pressure is the starting point and that has to be correct.
I'll have to look up my manual and see what it says. Machine is currently down and waiting for a replacement Accesory Valve to be made. The factory one is aluminum and cracked, causing a massive leak while engine is running. Contacted JLG, part can be ordered, but no ETA available on when one could arrive. My valve body is at a local machine shop, waiting on them to machine a new one from steel. We already tried welding the aluminum and re-machining it, but it cracked again in the repair.
What model? Seems like an 40H? Is that two, or four wheel drive? Eaton hydraulic controls? I think the Racine valves were gone by the time the "H" series was in place but I'm not an authority on it.
I have a 45 HA. Nice machine, has done well for me, but wasn't cared for very well in its previous life. Eaton/Vickers valves. The current part broken has Eaton stamped on it with a model number that just leads to more dead ends.
What does the valve control? Where is it mounted? I found a parts breakdown for the machine and need serial # also.
Got a question before I get off path going down a possible rabbit hole. All functions work with the controls responding with high linearity when commanded to do so from both the basket, or ground control. However a seemingly strange phenomena to me; the engine idle speed is faster in the "platform control" selection, than the "ground control" selection. There are no electronics involved with the engine governor which is a belt driven "Pierce" from the looks of it. The choke, and fast idle solenoids work as they should when commanded, as does high flow for faster ground speed travel. It is almost as if a dump valve opens/relieves when the controls are switched to basket control having seemingly less parasitic draw/drag on engine power. The valves on this machine are "open center" so I'm not really certain why it uses dump valves either unless they are electrically activated to relieve pressure in a circuit? There has been a lot of rewiring on this machine over the years and the original wiring diagrams do not match 100% of what is actually installed I don't feel. However, when I step on the pedal in the basket, all functions come to life but the engine rpm does not slow. If "Hi Engine Speed" is selected via toggle, the engine accelerates which would be considered normal. I've neither proven, nor disproved anything yet, but am wondering if this is normal operation before I spend much time on it. As mentioned everything seems to work well in function, but there is about 200 engine rpm difference between "Platform" and "Ground" control selections. Maybe "Off" can shed some light and once again, everything seems to work normally except this engine speed thing which could be normal?
My JLG 45HA (1994 vintage) is the opposite. When control is set to ground, engine runs at a fast idle and stays there throught functions. When switched to platform, engine speed drops to low idle, and then kicks up to fast idle when I step on the foot peddle. This machine is dual fuel, carburetor, Ford 4 cylinder gas engine. I have rented several other lifts that that respond the same way. Fast idle only while in ground control, low idle while in platform until peddle is stopped on to engage high idle.
Do you have a switch for high idle other than ground or platform control? This one does in the platform. Guess I should say high idle selection runs the engine at 1800 rpm where low idle in ground control is about 750 rpm and platform selection is just over 1000 rpm.
What you describe sounds perfectly normal for a "F" series JLG. Here's why. On ground control, the hydraulics are loaded and ready to function - the dump valve is closed - meaning it is not dumping On basket control, the hydraulics are NOT loaded. The dump valve is open and dumping back to the tank. When in basket control, the dump valve only closes when you step on the foot pedal. This is a safety feature. Should one of the valves malfunction and start moving a function on their own, it can be stopped by lifting your foot off the pedal. Later machines had a double safety. You needed a foot on the pedal and a switch/controller activated before the dump valve came on.
Thanks kindly. I've been out recreating scenarios this morning and have found exactly as you describe. The dump valves are functioning as they should. I think this non original engine is tired. It doesn't seem to use much oil but will push the oil level dipstick out of it's tube there is so much crankcase pressure, (blowby). I've been leaving the oil fill cap on the rocker cover loose and it dances around pretty good from the pressure but doesn't come off. Lot less oil mist in the compartment that way too. You load the hydraulics up and it almost bogs. Not close to dying out, but really labors. I have a mechanical 5.9ltr Cummins I'm going to replace it with once I find an SAE #3 flywheel housing so I don't have to do a lot of cobbling to get it in there. Measurements look as though it will fit fine with mount modifications.
That 4 cylinder is a little light on power for an 80F, even if it was in good condition. I've seen them with a 300 cu in industrial (6 cyl) and even they laboured at times. Speaking on labouring, when you want a JLG to warm up, leave it on ground control. That's what warms the oil.
Yes, it usually gets about five minutes or a bit longer to warm before it moves. I keep it inside and first start this engine, then start the truck to allow air to build, follow up with the skid steer, then finally start the tractor if it's in the normal place so everything warms a bit before being placed into service. The 100' length of my building is getting too short.....
A 5.9 Cummins would make a nice powerplant in your 80F. The 4 cylinder Ford does well in mine, until I want to load onto my trailer. Then it struggles to pull itself up the ramps.
By the book this thing originally had a 300 Ford six cylinder and the former owner replaced with a four cylinder Ford engine which I believe is very tired. There is a rebuilt by "Universal Remanufacturing" tag affixed to the block, but I don't know the date(s) any work was performed. The prior owner is deceased so no way to backtrack for any information. The family is uncooperative to work with. Regardless, she's a "pooch" in most operations concerning travel, but the functions all work well. I've not tried to climb up onto a trailer again as when I picked it up the engine stalled about 1/2 way up the ramp from being off level. I had to bridle it up with the winch, disconnect the hubs, and winch it onto the bed. Up till it stalled, I think it would have loaded itself as the drive tires were about 1/2 up the ramp when the engine quit and it wasn't lacking power. I need to rebuild the carburetor is the reason it stalled from flooding: The Cummins engine is in a 1989, or 1990 Dodge pickup and not intercooled, so not a lot of plumbing to attach. It however has a Chrysler automatic transmission behind so I need to find an SAE #3 flywheel housing and I'd be set. Welding, and adaption isn't a large hill to climb for fitment. With the warmer weather in the future, plans are to reengage with several of my projects as I'm looking to exit with the implement dealer to focus more on personal life and interest(s).
A diesel engine is the best thing that could ever happen to any gasoline powered manlift/AWP. (IMHO) Those old Cummins 5.9's were rock solid. We had one go 26,000 hrs without ever touching the short block. A couple head gaskets, a couple turbos, one injection pump. Still running when we sold it. Another advantage to a diesel engine manlift is using one tank of fuel per week, instead of 1 tank per day.
Decided to ascertain why the emergency hydraulic pump motor wouldn't run. After removal from the machine and having to use a torch on the rear bearing support/cover, kinda thinking the problem may be revealed: Rear bearing frozen to armature shaft, and commutator segments: Front housing and frozen roller support bearing: Housing interior. Everything was very crusty and I had to pry the armature from the pole shoes and brushes were firmly anchored in their holders: Another of the commutator: Strange but after freeing the brushes in their holders, and cleaning up the commutator with silicone carbide paper, everything checks out electrically. I'm going to bead blast everything clean tomorrow and see if I can get a new bearing locally. I suspect it will run as there are no open segments, nor poles, and the rear bearing cleaned up nicely fitting well on the shaft. A replacement motor is readily available should it not work but I don't want to spend a hundred if not needed.
You think there was water dripping onto it/into it from somewhere? Pretty nasty.
It has always been an outside unit and the side covers are present. Hard to say just years of condensation but I cannot see how water would have been directly dripping onto it. I had to use heat to remove the rear cover, and pry the assembly out of the body it was rusted so badly.
I keep forgetting how old these machines are now. It's not 1980 anymore
In many ways that is a good thing too.....
Holy smokes. I'm glad mine was functional when I got it. I have had to use it twice. Once, I forgot to check my fuel level before starting my day, and ran out while booming up. The second time, my fuel line cracked and proceeded to dump my tank while I was working at height. Both times the auxiliary pump worked flawlessly to get me down.
This one has never worked in my tenure. However the machine is short from being placed into service and I don't want to get stuck up high either. My wife is going to be operating it and I really could do without listening to her if stuck up in the air although I would consider fully extending the boom and running it all the way up as she is deathly afraid of heights. Kind of a common motor on lift gates, and forklift masts I've ascertained through research and easy to obtain replacement if needed.
For single bearings: $18.99 at O'reilly auto parts for tomorrow pickup in store, $38.99 at Advance Auto parts in stock, and $6.12 a pair from ebay with a three day turnaround. Not a hard decision given the lift is serviceable now if needed with nothing pressing.
I was able to break free/loosen the front bearing, but it doesn't roll very easily. I'm going to pry one of the shields out, pack some grease into the cavity, reassemble, and give the motor a bench test to prove it's worth working with further. No need to reinstall into the machine till the new bearing arrives but I can get a jump on the time if a replacement motor is needed. It takes all of five minutes to reassemble everything.
Pretty rough old girl and probably not one to start my cottage industry of bearing recycling with..... Starting to peel the shield: Shield removed: Kinda crusty in there: I can force it to rotate but after seeing this I really don't want to chance galling the shaft so will await the replacement bearing before moving along.
Forgot to include these just after removing the end bell and before I started prying the armature from the poles which were bridged with rust: A thing of beauty no? All parts have cleaned up acceptably well with glass beads and silicone carbide paper so when the bearing comes in, (shipped today) it should go right back together and work fine. I do not have a pole shoe screw remover so didn't remove them but was able to clean right up to their perimeter with the blast gun after insulating the windings with "Gorilla" tape to keep the blast from removing the electrical insulating varnish. So far I have about an hour and a half into this project. Should wrap up with just over 2-1/4 manhours and save myself a few hundred in parts and labor costs.
Installed a new end bearing and put everything back together. Works alright now reinstalled onto the machine but sure is slow in dropping the basket as it doesn't move a lot of oil. Test run of the motor here:
I'd say it's been a while since that motor ran. Good Job on the resto. That bearing was really something special.
I think if I was planning on using that lift I would after getting the pump motor working make it a habit of operating it for a short time say once a week. Nothing worse for a emergency system to sit unused for months at a time. You know it will fail to work the first time you actually need it!
Good advice and I plan to follow with it. Just a push of a button for a few seconds from the ground station so an easy prestart check for sure.
Thanks. More of a challenge than anything else for me. Many would simply give up and get a replacement but far too much was proving good via test equipment to chitcan the whole. Though I didn't photo it five minutes in the tumble blast cabinet made the brush holder and brushes look new. The commutator segments all rang good and the poles all were even in resistance. I don't have a "growler" but do have a micro ohm meter and it's quite accurate. All poles were within .03 ohms of each other which is quite close for such a less than precise application. I have no idea how long that lift had been out of service but he purchased a new one several years ago and had another leased unit. Last I seen this one work on a job was in the early 2000's.
I have a "growler" that I haven't used in about a hundred years. You want it?
If you have no use I would make good use of it. Let me know postage so I can reimburse. Thanks!
I'll weigh it. Haven't used it for so long, I forget how heavy it is. Seems like a dream now but there was a time it was common to repair starters, alternators and generators.
I've rewound lots in years gone by. Never have been much of a modern "box swapper" so probably good that I'm older as I'm not going to fit in.
I dug the growler out today, it's all there. I was worried I had "purged" it already. Too bad I wasn't thinking at the time and took a picture of it.
Hey Off, we've lost touch but I'd still like to have that growler. Got another question on my 80F now that I'm thinking of it. I've looked all over for the 4X4 enabling circuit pouring over the electrical prints and mechanical hardware extensively. Keep in mind my head is as hard and thick as the steel this lift is produced from so I don't give up easily, but I'm stuck, (or was until yesterday). You see, I ventured off into the back yard to pull the axles in and the lift literally sunk into the turf almost to the main frame. It took EVERYTHING my 12K electric winch had along with the two drive wheels spinning together to get it out. Here are a couple photos to show the dilemma I was trapped within: And my grand daughter giving me instructions on how to operate the machine last fall. Guess I should have listened better as I was cautioned about the "ruts", (more like impressions to me) in the front yard: These are more like "ruts" to me but I've got to get these fixed before my wife sees them. Now back to how do I engage the four wheel drive?????
Yes, I've still got the growler and you can still have it. I'm crossing the boarder in May, I'll bring it with me and send it from there. Those 80F are heavy! I've seen a 4wd 60F, but no 80's. How about running tracks on it and modifying the drive system to let you steer by powering either one side or the other?
In a picture you posted of your lift, only one axle has planetaries. So I'm going to guess that the other axle isn't driven, and you don't have 4x4.
Hi and thanks. I was being facetious with the 4X4 comments as these are only 2WD and physically very heavy in construction. They readily sink in soft turf and are terrible on anything that is not firm, level, and dry. Without suspension they really lack performance in less than ideal conditions. Now to the "Meat" of the post: "Off" has forgotten much more than I'll ever know on these and has been instrumental in helping get this thing from a hopefully useful scrap acquisition, to something that is very reliable, and usable. The post is kind of a "tongue in cheek" way of publicly telling him "thanks" once again and maybe share some humor of my ignorance, or ineptitude. I was laughing when it sunk, and was again finding humor in the extraction. "**** Happens" as they say, and we go on. I'll speak a little further of the lift. "Off" provided wiring diagrams, hydraulic diagrams, and technical knowledge along with professional, and practical guidance to make the lift operational. I've never worked on one of these prior. He even explained how to spread the axels as the unit does not have outriggers for stability. I did have to install new hydraulic drive motors, and counterbalance valves to make the drive axle perform as designed. The prior owner had one counterbalance valve backed all the way off so it was the sole motive force as the other motor was worn out. Basically it was a "one wheel wonder" and wouldn't even pull itself on a gravel parking lot unless the counterweight was over this drive wheel. The original 5.95ci TRW/Ross hydraulic motors are long obsolete with no direct replacement available so went with a pair of new Char-Lynn 6.05 ci motors. I plumbed into the system adjusting the Racine proportional valve bank relief cartridge to the correct value, and this is how I found the counterbalance valves maladjusted when measuring flow/pressure to the drive motors. Being unable to adjust both equally I took them apart finding one with a broken spring from being forcefully adjusted. Ordered two new Sun Hydraulics units rated at system pressure and they work very well allowing both drive wheels to pull evenly, yet allow differential action through turning. If I would have selected a higher relief, or differential operating pressure, the wheels would act more as a "spool" rather than a differential, but I operate a lot in finished turf so didn't want to scrub more than necessary. These work very well in the application. The wiring was/is a mess, and the hydraulic hoses are aged out from use and exposure. I have all functions working now and am going to rewire, and rehose the machine total after a good blasting and repaint. It is not new and modern, but does not have to be for me. Reliable, it must be and seemingly is now. It will start when zero degrees Fahrenheit with little trouble, and is ready to go with a few minutes warming up. Apologies if I mislead anyone as that was not the intent, nor point. I know this lift is not 4X4 as no drive assemblies in the steer axle, and I've had the front wheels apart to repack the bearings and install new grease seals. Again, I was being facetious in the post referencing 4X4. Going to smash on this one again as I couldn't have begun to fathom what it would take to make this lift operational had it not been for "Off" stepping up to the plate offering help. If you got this far in the lengthy post your attention span is greater than mine, or you found it interesting? Don't forget it's about three minutes of your life you won't get back. Thanks,
Go figure. I lost pilot pressure for the swing motor circuit in the Racine controls today. Manual, direct acting push buttons have nothing behind them just as if the engine and hydraulic pump were shut off. Drive, and elevation functions still work well and all three of these valves are a stacked affair sharing the same pilot oil supply. They work in parallel also meaning you can drive, elevate, and swing all at the same time. Good pilot pressure on the inlet and jumps right up to operating pressure when raising the boom so got some investigation to do. Strange, very strange.
Well, if I remember correctly......when one valve section stopped responding completely while the other sections still worked.....it was a broken spring. A little tiny spring. I circled it in this picture. labeled "pressure compensator"
I used to have a bag of them. Hopefully I didn't put them somewhere for "safe keeping". If I did, they are hopelessly lost.
Talk about karma. Was drilling down to the same area and that spring is right in the pilot oil path: Know what you mean about "safe keeping". I've had to repurchase things because I can't find what I know I have..... This came on suddenly. worked fine yesterday, and today, dead circuit.
Looks like #57 on the diagram called a "Pressure Compensator Spring: Does anything like to fall apart when you pull the bottom section free to replace this spring? Should the valve bank be removed from the machine and this repaired on a bench? Looks to be some standard "O" rings for seals and four socket head capscrews for access. Hate to get into those solenoid wires again.....
First thing I did whenever working an F series for first time, was to attach a terminal strip in a location close to the proportional valve bank, and run all the solenoid coil wires to it. Ring connectors on both ends. Made future repairs much easier. I always removed the whole pilot section before working on it too. The thought of you doing what you need to do while you and it are upside down, is giving me anxiety.
That is kinda like I was looking at it too. The art of contortion it looks to me. I need to rehose the machine so may just pull the valve bank complete and do it on the bench. I remember us conversing about the pressure compensation apparatus a while back and I think I'll do all three springs at the same time and keep spares. I'll get over to the JLG dealer tomorrow and see if they still have access to these as the Racine manual you gave me lists the part numbers. I rewound all six of those solenoid coil bobbins at the kitchen table with a cordless drill using a micro ohm meter to measure length. Think I got the magnet wire and kapton tape from Digi-Key, or another online supplier but they all work well now. Thought I had the infant mortality of this lift in my tenure behind me, but forward we go..... Wife doesn't like the lift in the yard as she seen the ruts so going to have to get something lighter to paint my two story bay window on the front of the house when the weather finally warms. This will allow me to get onto this lift for refurbishment and repairs and not be pulled off of it.