I'm trying to find a solution: Fiat Allis 10 C's transmission oil being transferred to backend. I've tried by replacing o-rings and the seal from the transmission to the backend. I've been looking at the system and I can't see any leakage at all, so I believe is located somewhere else and can't figure out where, but it is pumping over. I see the oil lowering in the transmission and increasing in the backend. Help on this will be valuable. Thanks.
Not sure about the 10, but the 14 has two pumps doubled up. One for transmission and the other for the steering clutch/brake circuit. The seal between the two pumps can fail, transferring oil one way or the other.
Hello Bravo Harris and Queenslander, I have a Fiat-Allis 10-C about 1980 model. As far the hydraulic pump configuration goes, this is what I understand from looking at the manuals and my 10-C. It may not be any help to the problem, but for what it's worth, here goes... There are a total of 3 independent hydraulic pumps, all located at the rear of (either) the master clutch or torque converter housing. 1. The big pump directly under your left foot as you sit in the operator's seat is the equipment pump, servicing the blade and ripper hydraulics. It is the largest of the three. 2. The pump directly under your right foot as you sit in the operator's seat is a twin section pump, both sections contained in one pump housing. The "front" section (closest to the front of the machine) is for the transmission charging pump, and the "rear" section is a scavenging pump, which picks up oil from the bottom of the torque converter or master clutch housing and puts it into the transmission sump. 3. The pump sitting more or less between the above two, but also more or less under the equipment pump and thus also indirectly under your left foot is the steering brake and clutch pump..
G’Day Dugandan, I realise that it is probably pointless comparing two different machines, but just as a matter of interest, the 14 (with power shift and TC), actually has two double pumps. The steering clutch pump is coupled with the scavenge pump. We once had the same problem that the OP has and ended up replacing the pump as we were fitting a reconditioned transmission at the same time.
Hello again Bravo Harris and Queenslander, Bravo Harris, if yours is the torque converter model then just disregard my previous ramblings. The pump set up information in my previous post for the master clutch model. If it is the torque converter model it will have the two twin section pumps as Queenslander has said. Hope you find your problem, please follow Queenslander's guidance. Here is a diagram from the manual.
Don’t worry, I’ve been down the same track myself. My book shows two different schematics for the TC/ gearbox hydraulic system. Your diagram looks to be identical to the 14.
Thanks guys. The tandem pump is brand new.We have had this problem for two years and four mechanics later.Transmission was removed and rear seal changed.
We have removed the armour plate under the transmission. It takes two hours of pushing work to empty the transmission and find the oil level in the back end well over the maximum mark.Sitting in the Tractor below your left foot is the large Hydraulic pump and just below and to the right is the two part new Tandem pump. Your thoughts
That is the correct pump. That’s a lot of oil to be loosing, and as far as I can work out, the pump is the only place that the two systems link hydraulically. Did the seal look ok on the old one? Our tractor wasn’t leaking anything like that but I still found a small crack in the seal. Where do you source your parts? On the 14 there are two voids in the casting in the back end, one on either side, each with a bung, the book says to drain them now and then. Could be worth investigating to see what is happening there.
We source our parts in the us,Canada and Italy.also have a FL 14 B Track Loader.I wonder if we drain the oil in back end and start the machine with middle back end cover plate with filter open if we will see the oil leaking into the back end.?
That should work, just remove the cover over the return filter to start with. With the amount of oil involved it should be easy enough to pick up.
Thanks for the help.We are now cleaning up the area and repairing minor leaks and checking hoses before opening up the back end.There is third pump below your right foot.
Thanks Dugandan. Kindly send scanned pdf of the schematic oil flow from the steering and brake pump. Thanks in advance.
The pumps on the right are both for the torque converter and transmission, the upper pair on Dugundan’s diagram.
Hello Bravo-Harris and Queenslander, Schematic of 10-C Steering Brake and Clutch Hydraulics.
I would be seriously digging for screens in the sumps or a blocked line or even a collapsed(Internally blistered) line not allowing return oil to move. The scavenge side of most Allis even the FA models pulled off the finals and another section off the trans case back to a common sump for suction of supply pump to systems.
Yes, I was going to suggest that while bravo-harris has the oil out of the back end, that he thoroughly check the suction lines and screen of the steering clutch pump. What I know about about the principles of hydraulic theory could be carved into the back of a postage stamp with a pick axe.... but if there was a total blockage of the sc pump suction side, would it be possible for the pump to draw oil through the seal between the two pumps? Pf is sc pump, Pr is scavenge pump.
One other item just rang up, Vents on housings, one sump develops pressure above the other it will force feed to that one. ALL the vents blocked up and strainers debris loaded as well two lines on my 7G were hosed up. My little unit draws from left side bevel gear housing and from the bottom of the Trans housing sends that oil to a secondary sump with its own strainer where the Tandem pump draws suction on the other half feeds it to Trans control and the Steering pump takes suction from there as well. Steering clutch housing areas drain back to main reservoir, trans and steering Open Center dumps are back to Bevel and trans housings. My bevel housing would pressurize to force the oil into the clutch areas and slowly begin to starve the tandem trans pump. Is also a cooler on this unit it as well could be low pressure dumping back to res. where cannot control that flow.
Hello Bravo-Harris, Queenslander & DMiller, Not sure how you are going Bravo Harris, but hope the attached is of some help. I stumbled on a troubleshooting list in the Fiat Allis 10-C Service Manual (see attached, Fault number 12) which pretty much lines up with your description of the problem. The suggested causes are bang on the advice from Queenslander and DMiller. As the Scavenge Pump Inlet filter (Fr) is not easy to find, I crawled under my 10-C and took a photo (red arrow points to 24mm bolt to undo) in case you have not located it yet. There are 5 screens/filters in total, 3 on the Transmission / Torque Converter circuit, and two on the Steering Brake and Clutch circuit. Coincidentally, my machine also has had a blocked oil line, again as pointed out as a possibility by Q & DM. The blocked line supplied the engine oil pressure gauge on the dash. Luke, the mechanic who is helping me, suggested we try cleaning the line out with compressed air, it solved the problem in spectacular fashion. Hope you can solve your problem, admittedly a bit more serious than mine, as easily.
Thanks.Planning to work on the machine tomorrow and will advise.Also looking for a pair of second hand Tracks for a Fiat Allis FL14B Track Loader-badly worn track bushings.
Now it is getting more complex.I have cleaned both screens steering and transmission on the left and right side.
I think if I was going to do the test that you mentioned, I’ld do it before disturbing anything else. If the sc pump is still pumping oil to the backend you should see it at the port that No.27 covers. This is off a 14, but I assume that the 10 is similar.
Hello Bravo-Harris, Queenslander and DMiller, Looking at my machine and the manuals I have made a list which may help (1 page PDF attached). Also not sure if you have parts catalogue. I have it in PDF but can't send on this forum as it is too large. Let me know if you need it, there may be another way.
Got to digging thru some of my old Allis stuff. Rails on the 14 will be 7.484 pitch, Deere 750C Cat D5H 7NC or 8RC s/n prefix should also be these dimensions as a close enough match, the Deere LGP will be taller links(119mm) where standard rails were 110mm both 64mm bushing OD, 14 B&C will be 115mm height, 60mm bushing where any sprocket wear 14D could have 116mm height and 65mm bushing should be able to use the Deere rails. If have access to South American suppliers the may still have access for the FA rails or supply from Italy or Korean sellers.
Can you help to locate the other two screen filters on the torque converter and the two on the steering/brake/clutch circuit.These have never been cleaned.
I have a parts manual.
Got a quote from Italy and China.
Berco was generally what came on these, some had Simmel.
Been over 25 years since under one of these. Some screens as IIRC remember appeared as Banjo style fittings for lines on the Trans case and torque housing. the 'Bolt' was removed from the line head and strainer attached at the end, similar to depicted fitting earlier post.
Dugandan’s list, in post 23, gives an excellent description of the appearance and location of all five filters. The carrier that I posted the photo of is on the rear centre cover and holds the return filter. Not related to your problem, but the tiny vent in that cover, No 29 and 30, is the only breather for the rear compartment.
Found the location drawing that you sent. thanks!
thanks for sending location info for screen/filters!
You are welcome. I understand you are grappling with things at the moment, it can be hard.
Hi guys. We located and cleaned all 5 filters. None were that bad, the worst being the horizontal filter on the torque converter. We removed the scavenger pipe and used air pressure to ensure no blockage. We also removed the in and out transmission pipe going into the cooler and also applied air pressure to ensure no blockage. At the rear vertical filter, we noticed that the base of the oil bath container had a small machined hole about 1/16" which we bronzed to prevent oil escaping into back end. We ran the machine without armour plate for 2 hours and transmission oil continues to transfer to back end. We also replaced 2 missing O rings on the internal oil pipelines inside the back end. Please help.
I would be tempted to run it briefly without oil in the backend. If oil still comes out of one of the lines where you replaced the o rings you will know that it is entering via the double pump. The hole that you brazed up would be to allow the filter canister to drain when the machine is not running. All the oil that passes through that filter ends up in the back end after lubricating the bevel gear, brakes and clutches.
By running it briefly, I mean standing still at a slow to medium idle for a minute or two.
Hi guys. In doing our filter cleaning exercise, we pulled the large nut on top of the torque converter (between feet from operators seat) which is a hydraulic pressure relief valve and noticed that the shims were missing and not holding the pressure. In other words, the machine is running with the pressure relief valve open. Kindly send the diagram from the manual and how to set the right pressure release. Thanks in advance!
Hello Bravo-Harris, I trust the attached 2 files will be a start. The manuals have diagrams and references to both the "Transmission Clutch" and the "Torque Converter" models all mixed up. The correct diagrams and text (Torque Converter for you) are both section "b" in the attached. Section a in both cases refers to the "Transmission Clutch" model, so just ignore those sections. Refer to Section b on Page 3.14 of the Service Specification Manual which shows three pressure adjustment washers, I think this is what you have found are missing??? Refer also to section b on Page 36 and 37 of the Service Manual Transmission which states briefly the way to vary the pressure. I hope this is helpful.
Hello Queenslander, Wondering if you can help with a query. Could you tell me what these disc things are on the attachment on post 22 please? Do they have a function? (I assume you have had a close-up look at them.) They look like a plug of some sort. On mine, all I can see on the outside is some cement type substance, apparently to seal the hole, but with a central hole, looks like a small allen key might go in there. I do not see two shiny metal discs as in the drawing/photo you posted. Thanks.
The photo I posted is from a 14, the same as your loader, and could be a little different from your dozer. Iam certain that the discs are plugs from the casting/machining process. When we installed a rebuilt converter and transmission, the only adjustment that we attended to was the transmission pressure regulating valve.
Hi guys,so far the problem remains. It takes two hours of work to empty the Transmission with the oil being transferred to the back end.I plan tomorrow to drain the back end remove the rear filter cover plate,filter and the canister.start the engine and with flashlight look for an oil leak.Any other ideas.
Not too many I'm afraid. I haven't been near our tractor since we started this conversation, but I'll be working it tomorrow, so that might trigger some more. Flexible suction line to steering clutch pump OK?...needs to be reinforced suction tube. Do you know what pressure your transmission is running at?... ie. dash mounted trans. pressure guage. Can you post some photos of your dozer and what you are doing?... might trigger something else. Does it have, or would it ever have had a winch?
Hello Bravo - Harris and Queenslander, I 100% agree with your approach of draining the back end, taking off the filter carrier, etc., and looking for oil entering the back end, if Queenslander thinks this is the way to go, but would urge caution if this means running the gear pump "dry", as gear pumps should be operated with a full supply of oil in them. This is pointed out clearly in the manuals I have. If this proposed test does not lead anywhere, and I know this is going over old ground, but honestly, despite everything that has gone before, I would suggest the combined steering brake and clutch / scavenge pump is the next thing to eliminate as a suspect. I know you have told us the pump is new, however, the following are the facts as I see them. 1. Queenslander has had a similar fault (oil draining from transmission and raising level in steering brake and clutch / bevel gear housing). In his case the transmission oil was entering the steering brake and clutch circuit through the pump. His pump configuration is the same as yours. 2. The exact symptoms are identified in the Fiat Allis 10-C troubleshooting guide (page 42 item 12 as attached). The suggested causes are: (a) clogged transmission screen (this has been addressed by your screen cleaning exercise) (b) defective scavenge pump 3. New parts do not always work correctly. You have to be unlucky to cop this, but unfortunately I speak from experience, having been on the wrong side of the pachinko ball of life in that regard. 4. No disrespect to anyone, but the installation process of new parts has been known to be the source of the problem. Again, it has happened to me. My reading of the facts may not be applicable to your situation in the end, but eliminating possible suspects will enable you to get one step closer to solving the problem. All the best.