I would like to get something in the size of a 450 JD to play on my property,use on building homes for my 2 kids on the property and my wood road maintenance.My wood road goes along a swamp and I have about 8 acres only accessible in the winter when it freezes over.There are some nice firewood trees I would like to pull over during the winter and was wondering other than buying a dozer with winch already can one be fitted to the back ?
Usually cheaper and better to buy the machine with the winch on, but yes it's usually no problem installing one, once you find the right winch, PTO shaft, and controls to work with the make and model of dozer you buy.
I've been exploring this question. Dozers first bought new as logging machines live a hard life. Small dozers with winches are tired by the time I can afford them. I bought a Dresser TD7G, a 70HP, 14600 LB all angle blade in condition that pleased me. Now I want a winch. Winches that could fit are easy to find. What isn't easy to find is the PTO, and mounting parts. Looking at the parts book, there are about a hundred little and big parts needed to adapt a winch to a specific tractor. For my tractor at least, these parts used are like chicken teeth. Here in VT the John Deere logging tractors are plentiful. Less so with Dresser. A number of people here part out Deere crawlers. One man explained that most buyers of old crawlers are reluctant to pay $3000 extra to get a tractor with winch, so he often has winches to sell. The 450, 450B, and 450C were a particularly rich source of winches. He explained that many break the cast iron transmission housing. These become parts tractors. I then wonder if I want a tractor model prone to broken transmission housings. I've explored the feasibility of a Warn, or other brand hydraulic winch. If I could work out the plumbing of interrupting the hydraulic return between the angle valve, and the tank, or a selector valve to repurpose the angle function, I could fabricate a mount,& arch with fairlead. I think an arrangement like the Farmi three point winches might be used. Willie
The Deere 450's through the "C" model at least, had issues with the transmission housings where the side frames bolted to them, though usually if the bolts were kept tight the side frames would break first, I changed many of them. There were several updates to the side frames and the front crossbar. The winches tended to have a bit more snoose than a machine that size should have so yes, they could hurt themselves. Especially if the operator chained the blade to a large stump before engaging the drum, lol. The Gearmatic winches that were popular out this way took constant fiddling to keep them working well. I recall more than one logger telling me that first thing in the morning they would hook the line to something and run the dozer forward in freespool out to about half of the bottom layer, then winch themselves back to spool in the line. Then you could pull the line out by hand if you were choker logging.
Is it impractical to tap hydraulic power to run an aftermarket winch? Have you any advice? Mine is a Dresser TD7G with all angle blade. It has been suggested I could install a selector valve to reroute blade angle hoses to a winch. Would the winch require constant hydraulic flow, & be controlled by its own integral controls, or would it be controlled by a manual valve as the blade angle is now?
There are plenty of things to go wrong with the proper winch installed with all the proper shafts controls pumps... I can't imagine the trouble you would go through trying to make something "work". I would suggest that if you don't have the money to do it right that you buy some snatch blocks some wire rope a tail chain and some Crosby clamps.
I disagree, hooking up a hydraulic winch is more straightforward and inherently safe than a PTO winch. The impractical part is the much lower power available from the hydraulics than from PTO. Are you logging everyday or getting unstuck couple times a year? There's lots of ways to tie into hydraulics, you can make it work just about any way you want it to.
I make no pretense that this is the cheap solution. I have an early Power Wagon with two PTO winches. They are the ideal choice. The Power Wagon without power steering lacks the maneuverability of a crawler. Should I manage to stick the crawler in muck, I deserve a Darwin Award. Then I'd use the Power Wagon. I would like to indulge my dreams, and drag a few logs. Perhaps I could meet my needs with an electric winch. I envision backing to the tree after it has been felled, and winching one end off the ground to drag. The OEM winches on these tractors are hydraulic. They use a constant running PTO to drive an integral pump, then a hydraulic motor to turn a worm drive. The PTO apparatus is hard to come by for a Dresser. I have no doubt there is a cadaver in a salvage yard somewhere in the nation with just the parts I need. Finding those parts is the first challenge. The second challenge is the holder of them knowing how much I want them will likely price them by gold standards. They will leak, and new seals won't fix them because shafts are scored. New parts are going to be as scarce as the initial components were. This isn't about price, it's about a solution. Willie
Here is a start http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/components/acsearch.aspx?catid=104&manu=CARCO&mdltxt=30B
For occasional use on a smaller machine I might even look at 12 volt models . Wow ! didn't realize they had so many units over 12,000 LB .:cool2 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...red-winches+12-000-lb.-capacity-above-winches Be handy in allot of ways with remote control cord , easy installation . Could even fabricate a pin on mount so it could be used on different vehicles & situations . Possibilities are endless .
For occasional use I would go electric, it's SO much easier to install and hook up. Dozer hydraulics are usually pretty low flow, they just don't need much to move the blade around, but sure if you wanted to you could. Most hydraulic winches could easily be run off the existing valving by adding a six port diverter valve.
This one is kind of cool with the wireless remote feature . http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200183424_200183424 What the hell . Go with the Trewhella Wallaby winch . http://www.trewhella.co.uk/monkey-winches.php It kept Scrub out of trouble . HeavyEquipmentForums
The pin on, or receiver mount would be a great idea except for borrowers. I have a couple great come alongs used for rolling disabled vehicles onto trailers, or that's what I use them for. Four young men around here like to repurpose them. several weeks ago a search ensued for one as it was needed. The culprit denied having it. Weeks after the need passed, it reappeared. I do have a little electric winch used for pulling cable through conduit. It is set up for receivers. I haven't seen it in some time. I don't have problems with thieves, more like packrats.
That would be a Model 19 Gearmatic that pulled out hard in the morning. The old Model 9 was fine and the later Model 20 was fine. Never arm wrestle with a man that logged with a Model 19.
I used a 9 and a 19 back in the day. I was mean and angry at 7am but all was well by 9am. I got out of the logging business and am much happier now.
A local was in the logging business. He went bankrupt. Working hanging sheetrock after, the group were discussing what they'd do if they won big in the lottery. Mike stated "If I won big, I'd go back to logging.........at least until the money ran out".
That sounds like a relationship problem, and I think we're barred from that sort of thing. Nonetheless, you have their phone numbers right? the next time you're sitting stuck somewhere call them all up "come pull me out, I can't find my winch" and mean it. There's nothing at all wrong with an electric winch. The cheap chinese version of a 12k winch is $300, add a snatch block or two and you're good enough.
An electric winch works great for occasional use. They will not hold up for pulling trees as the original poster commented he wanted to occasionally do. First time you caught a stump with the tree butt when traveling along if only the cable snaps you will be lucky. A few folks have tried it for firewood but it was iffy ay best. I put a wanted add on Craigs List a number of years ago for a winch for my 455D John Deere and got three replies within days. I ended up buying one for $1,800.00. I helped take it off so I got all the misc parts and an education for mounting it. My machine already had the rear control spool that worked on either ripper or winch so it was a easy mount job.
Electric is easy, and cost effective. I'm a little worried it won't be up to its rating pulling occasionally long pull. I think I can have hooks on the arch for each choker should I pull more than one tree. This puts no strain on the winch dragging the log. Mostly I think I'll back close to the stump, and pull the log a few feet to lift one end off the ground, transfer choker to a hook, release tension from the winch cable, then drag.
My guess is the LB rating of an electric winch is twice what it's actually good for . Like this Superwinch Talon 18,000 LB . Rated for 9 tons ? Might lift 4.5 tons . That's how I look at it . Have a few small Superwinch units and that was my experience with them . Good product & held up over the years . Just overrated on capacity . Still pretty impressive . Has 1/2 " cable on it . http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200474433_200474433 https://www.superwinch.com/products/superwinch-talon-series Talon pulling a tree . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHv550vEQLg Like others have mentioned this aint a logging winch :nono. Best case is to find correct model rear mount that bolts up to the dozer for the rough stuff . But if you just need it once in awhile for whatever the electric might be the way to go with cost & ease of installation .
In the fine print it probably says the rating is not line pull, it's load at stall, WITH a snatch block, lol.
Willie B, if your TD7G is like the ones I ran it has a selector valve on the blade angle circuit to run a ripper. If I remember right it was a small lever with the end bent 90 degrees that was between the seat and blade control lever. Pull it up for blade angle and push it down for ripper. If that valve was there it wouldn't be hard to plumb a hydraulic winch like are commonly used on fishing boats. I believe Gearmatic is a popular brand, just wouldn't have freespool unless you find the right one. I have no idea if the hydraulic requirements would be any where close.
That is what I think I would rather do is go 12 volt instead of the pto or hydro
I haven't been to it since your post. I'm sure there is no selector lever. I don't think it had a ripper, or any other accessories. I believe it was bought new by a gentleman who worked alone, it was a finish grader around house sites.
Yeah , I was surprised to see the 15,000 to 18,000 LB 12V models . Price was not bad either . I just have smaller 12V winches , 1,000 & 2,500 LB rating . I'm curious how the bigger units perform . I imagine with few snatch blocks & some rigging could get a smaller machine out of a jam . Keep us posted , I really enjoy building & fabricating winch attachments & setups on equipment & trucks that make life go a little smoother on simple tasks & jobsites . Hang on a second ......... Spotted this JD 350 with winch for sale in your neck of the woods . Might be worth a drive to take a look at it . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11387597/deere-350
I'd buy a cheap little timber jack and be done with it. Purpose built machine
What's a timber jack?
Orange articulated noisemaker equipped with winch & blade . http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...arder/manufacturer/timberjack/model-group/225 Those guys are pretty proud of those 225's with the asking price . Good looking machines . I thought about a skidder , but sounds like milkie62 wants to do some grade work as well .
A: I'm married B: I'm not a full time logger. C: it is tempting. Don't they all use Detroit engines? Mufflers don't help those pigs. They can be heard 10 miles away.
Newer ones had a Cummins option. John Deere bought them up a number of years ago.