Hello all! Sammy here with Fly-By-Night Hauling (Est. Yesterday) Sometime 4 or 5 weeks no calls and I think I made a big mistake, other weeks its one call/job after another it is really weird, does this happen to any of yous guys? Quick question for you please. I know what my advertising costs are. And gas, Ins, tax, dump fees. etc. What Im not sure how to figure is maintanence on my truck (78 gmc half ton full time 4x4 ugh) Of course it will take time to get back the 3 grand I have into the purchase and fixing up of it. But is there a way to figure how much to charge to maintain it? I havent had to do anything (other than put in lots and LOTS of gas) so far so I was just curious if there is some standard way of doing this. This is all still very new to me as I am reminded almost every day by my own bad decisions. It is a very very fine line (here anyway) between people saying "oof" or them saying "go for it" as far as my bids go. There is no professional competiton here so I was not able to find out what they charge, there IS no "they". It has been a struggle. I usually know when they jump on my bid that Im going to end up working for free, or worse paying for the job. But it seems like when I do a bid that figures in a little profit for me, its too high, not always, but far too often. Today for example Im hauling off an old 200 lb tv for a lady. I told her $35. Now out of that comes $2.66 for tax, $5 for high school help, $5 dump fee, $10 gas. And maint. probably should start coming from somewhere. I dont blame her for not wanting to pay say $50 just to get rid of an old tv but its puttin the hurt on me. Any info or ideas would be greatly appreciated! I have racked my brains trying to figure how and where to cut costs, Im just missing something. Thanks Sam
Hi Sammy, I'm just trying to get started in business my self so what I have to say is not from experience its just my thoughts on it. Hope you don't take offence by this because its not nebt to offend. I think you may have choose a bad name. A fly by night outfit usually refers to a company that does shotty work, takes the money and runs.... What's you target market? Will it be mostly small stuff? If so maybe you got to much truck? Would it be possible to trade it for a smaller one? Or even a half ton with a V6. That will cut your fuel maintenance bill drasticly. To figure out what your cost would be a good strart maybe to figure out what your truck burns per mile, how much does it cost to service (oil changes, transmission, tcase diffs air filters and anything else you can think of). Then How often does it need to be done. How many miles between services. Break those cost down to what each mile you drive costs you. Then use that as a starting point to figure your bids out. Add at least 10% to set aside in case of a breakdown? One good thing about your truck is parts are cheap and easy to find. Then add the cost of your help if you need it (plus atleast 10% and don't forget the deductions for him). And anything else you may need for a job like the cost to rent a trailer (plus at least 10%) if the job calls for it. Then take all those figures, put them together and bid the jobs per mile plus a load and unload cost if you think its necessary and add what you want for profit. Remember that's just my thoughts. Not from experience so take that for what its worth. There are lots of guys in here that I'm sure will pop in and give you really good first hand knowledge. I just wanted to take a shot at it so feel free to tell me I'm way off on this guys I won't be offended
It's either feast or famine with work. It takes a while to get used to it, but you'll have to if you want to make it in this business. Figuring out the cost of maintenance is tough. Figure the mileage on how good a oil change is and divide that by the cost of the oil change. Same for tires, and general maintenance, but I would add a 10% +/- factor so if you blow a tire or something else happens you can cover yourself. What type of business are you trying to get started in? I started off ripping stumps out, sweeping parking lots with a walk behind sweeper and doing driveways.
You guys may not have been here when Sammy discussed his business plan earlier, including the merits of the catchy name. That discussion is here.
Thanks Digger. I followed the link and read it from start to finish. really good thread. Sammy, I admire you ambition :thumbsup right on!
Thanks guys! Im sorry about not stating what my new business is. Also thank you for putting up the link. Hauling garbage away for people that either can't or simply dont want to. It IS interesting that ALL my jobs except one has owned a truck, they just didnt want to take the time to haul it away themselves. Most times the stuff is too heavy and/or too much so their usually happy to pay me anywhere from $70 to $300 to take it to the landfill for them. I am working closley with Habitat for humanity and when I get stuff that is usable (beds, appliances, furniture,etc) I give it to them, which they appreciate and so do I as it cuts my dump fees. When you first start up, its all guess work, and I have guessed wrong on a few things. Mainly I was hoping to get a lot of simple small jobs as I could only afford a half ton flat bed to start. I THOUGHT I would be getting a lot of "could my haul my hot water heater away?" or " how much to get rid of this old sofa?" As this is primarly a retirment area.....lotsa old people. That ain happinin. The calls I am getting (when I get any lol) are basements FULL, sheds full, yards full, lots of cars, scrap metal, which I realy cant do anything with as the nearest recyler is 100 miles away and I just cant put enough on my little ol truck to even pay my gas. I have worked with another guy that DOES scrap metal and hulk cars, so I can still usually help out my client one way or another! The other mistake I made when I dreamt up this whole thing was I thought it was cool as I could do it myself. Wrong. I have had to hire a highschool kid to help with all but one job. Which really cuts into my profit. Most times he makes as much or even more than I do, and I dont pay him much at all. But Im afraid If I tell people it will cost anymore than It already is, I will lose them. Now I have had to PAY to do a couple I screwed up on, and I would rather err on the side of too high and not get the job, than to do that very often. Of course my ultimate goal is to get the jobs by bidding them where I can make a little money (I know it wont be much now, I am thinking long term) I can afford to pay a helper, because I cannot lift most of this stuff by myself, and have a happy client/customer. Whats funny is, I have had several people say "OOOF" when I tell them its going to be $130 say, to take a full load, that covers gas, dump, tax everything. But MOST of those same people have given me anywhere from a $10 to $50 tip telling me it was well worth it and they really liked my work! I wish I could figure out a way to get them to think that way when I give them the bid, because EVERY ONE has been exceptionally pleased with my work, but Im afraid Im losing some because I never get the chance to do the job. I HATE telling people its going to be (im just pulling numbers here) $100 to take a pile of stuff to the dump, it is the worst part of my job I think. But I know its going to cost me $10 per dump trip for gas, $7.60 tax, $40 for help, and $20 at the dump for their fees. Which leaves me what? something like $22 for 2 or 3 hours heavy work. And you know out of the 22 bucks comes my advertising costs, & insurance. Please be aware I am not whining, or if I am I dont mean to sound that way lol. Im just still trying to figure out how to be fair, and make a little money. I know it will cost for a while. I didnt plan on being able to live on this (my wife has a decent job thank God) I know all you that run your own business probably has thought at one time or another that you would make more money doing something else. I could to work at Mcdonalds for minumum and do just great! But where would I be 10 years from now as compaired to figuring out how to stick it out with my own business. The name. Probably about half the people or a little more have laughed when they call me and ask how I came up with it, think its "a gas" funny etc. The other half never mention it, It could be called sams hauling, makes no diff to them. I suppose I never get a few calls from people that dont like it, theres no way to know If they never call. One thing IS for sure, people remember Fly-By-Night.................and that is exactly what I wanted. Thanks again for all your input and help, this is my only source other that "guessing" and we know where some of that has gotten me hahaha. Sam
Many of you may disagree with me, but I think when it comes to doing jobs like cleaning out a garage or a shed you may be better off to set an hourly wage, and just charge by the hour. When you have to haul away an old appliance and you know you can do that job in an hour then tell them a price that you will do the job for. There are too many variables in cleaning out a garage,basement or whatever to give a set price, I would be willing to bet you will always lose your *** doing a job like that for a price. As for figuring out what your operating costs are, you need to take a look at your overhead, and see what kind of money you need to make in order to turn a profit, and charge at least enough to cover that. GOOD LUCK!!!
I started out trying to do it by the hour but the two problems that kept coming up were, 1, I was charging $40 an hour (which covered everything) and everyone said no way. Even the very best paid professionals here could take time off work and do it themselves. Even half of that will not go over here, and I can load a lot of stuff in a hour, but I didnt even get close to getting one job doing that. And the other problem is I can tell the customer that I charge by the hour, (just cant tell them how much) and they still want to know the bottom line. This has been brought up to me before when Iv'e said that Im not sure about bidding on bigger jobs. But no matter how I want to charge they always want to know what the total will be if they have me do the job, and I caint say as I blame them. I dont know if other people actually just tell their customers "its so much an hour and when Im done Im done" but I have tried and I cant seem to make it work. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. Sammy
Hey Sammy I have thought about your name a lot. And the more I think about it and the input others have given you on it. The more I like it. So what if you miss a few jobs because of it. The ones that can't see the humor in it, you probably don't want to work for anyways. They will likely be the ones that try and lowball you on your prices the most and won't be that good to work for. The path you are taking now, I can easy see you years from now with several employees and a fleet of trucks. And the same name that everyone will still laugh at but remember and call on because there will be a solid history of good honest service behind the name. One day you will reflect back on these hard times and chuckle at the hard knocks you took as you were learning. Please keep posting your progress as you go. Your story is a good one that anyone starting out in any business can learn from.
Sam, you need to determine your operating expenses as you are doing here and set your prices accordingly with your head held high or you will be out of business before you know it. I have a lawn route and I have determined I can not stop the truck for less than $40 to cut a lawn no matter how small it is. You'll find that you'll need to determine a minimum fee for your service to make your time worthwhile and stick to it. If you can afford to do charity work, by all means do so, but look at it as just such.
Sammy, one of my ventures years ago was in the excavation business, amidst a flooded market already. I used a little marketing niche that I picked up on from someone else, as I had always been fairly observant when it comes to successful people and how they went about things. I had really neat biz cards printed up, a little more expensive than normal, but they were the "fold over" style. A logo of my actual excavator on the front, and inside the phrase, "Over Insured & Underpaid". The lady that owned the printing shop was trying to lend me her "past experience advice", and tried to get me to leave that out in fear of "sending the message that you're not serious about your business"... I thanked her for her input, but was adiment about keeping that little hook in there, with the attitude that "if they don't like it, then I probably didn't need to do business with that customer anyways..." I got more comments with a smile on that stupid little trick than anything else I did in marketing my work. Another really cheap, cheezy way to get your name out there is this, another tried and true method I used recently to start another business. I sat down in front of this computer, (long before I got introduced to HEF, and was actually productive while sitting here, ) and made up a pin-up flyer of what I was doing on 8 1/2" X 11" normal paper, but lengthwise. I put my co. name and phone number along the bottom the 11" long way, and made tear strips so people could rip one off where they were hanging, like you see people advertising at the laundramat, etc. for yard work, baby sitters, etc. I cut the lines between the numbers with scissors, made up about 30 of these things, and me and my son jumped in the pickup and rode around in a 30 mile radius and stuck one up at EVERY bulletin board that would accept it. Even took a couple of the competitor's down to make room for ours, but that's another thread...:cool2 Used our own thumbtacks so as not to disrupt anybody's board, and within 2 weeks the phone was ringing off the hook. First question we asked was, "How did you hear about us?" They'd say, "at the laundramat, on the bulletin board, at the general store on the porch, at the supermarket, on and on it went. The total cost was something like 30 bucks for this marketing strategy, including the gas to make the rounds that Saturday. It really showed me and taught me a lesson that you don't have to be the first one in the phone book to get noticed, just willing to get creative. Then you get serious about your business, like Orville Redenbocker, the popcorn magnet once said, "Do one thing,...and do it better than everybody else...":wink2 I wish you the best of luck at it...Go get 'em. :scool
Sammy, a couple words of advice. I started out much like you. Took any job that came along. I had a 3/4 ton flatbed truck and a trailer. I hauled wood, moved brush, hauled cars, anything people needed done. Eventually I bought a Kubota tractor with a rototiller and bushhog and took off from there. A couple things I have found: The customers want a call back (not a problem when you have no work). Coutesy and politness goes a long way. And doing anything they need done is a huge bonus. Who cares if you don't rake lawns or change faucet washers. Give them a price and build your business until you have a customer base that you can pick from and be more selective. If folks know that you can either do it or get someone there who will, and all they have to do is call you, it doesn't matter what business you are in, it will grow. People are lazy, they want someone dependable that will get everything done with one call. Good luck, hang in there.
This is a little off topic and hope noone minds...but anyways. Hats off to all you who frequent HEF. I dicovered HEF at the same time as a couple other forums and I barley bother with them anymore. The people in here are the friendliest and offer up the best advice with very little criticism. And the criticism there is, is usually the good constructive type. lol lowboy I'm on HEF way more then I should be too. And having access to it on my phone makes it even worse. Is to easy to pull my phone out of my pocket when I have a minute and check out the now posts. Think it shows me as being online 24/7 lol But I have learned lots and really enjoy having a place to to carry on a conversation with people I have something in common with.
PLEASE don't tell me how to access HEF on my phone...It'll be grounds for therapy if that happens...I have a problem.:spaz
One thing that might help with finding out your true costs is break it down to the smallest denominator possible. Try to figure you fixed ( car payment, advertising, cell phone etc, fuel to go look at jobs, I would use a cheaper means than your truck) costs by the month, then the week and then the day. Add up all your expenses for the last three months and divide by three, then divide by 4 weeks in the month, then by the day. This will help to figure out what you need to take in every day to cover your expenses. Don't add in the cost of the doing a particular job (labor, fuel, tipping fees etc) , just the fixed expenses you have. Then after you have a handle on that number try and figure what it cost you to do the work over and above your fixed costs. Add those together and you have what you need to charge to cover your expenses.
I think it's really difficult to come up with a good figure to use for the expense of a truck that old. Your initial investement is small, but the uncertainty factor is huge. You could easily spend half the value of the whole truck if your transmission went bad. It could go bad tomorrow, or never. How can you figure for that?
Sir Digger, what's his options? I still think he needs to have some idea what it costs week to week.
Beats the heck outta me. :beatsme For just the truck, I don't think it would be unreasonable to find out what it would cost to lease a similar truck, new, from a dealer. They have the cost/month, and mile figured out. You get a truck, and drive it for a couple of years, and turn it back in, hopefully without it needing anything other than it's periodic maintanence. Whatever the cost of those major repair items is, down the road, they've calculated in, so they can offer it for lease at a price where they make money. Sort of similar to what the equipment manufacturers do with their guaranteed cost per hour programs. Use that amount of dollars as your basis for figuring your costs. I'm sure there'd be some difference in the actual dollars and cents, but I imagine the costs would be relatively the same, if you figured the lower purchase price in with the higher maintenance costs. Sammy may find out he's giving the truck time away for free. Disclaimer: I ain't no expert!
:laugh
If you had no idea where to start and no-one chimes in with a better estimate, I could offer an estimate as to what should be saved for an older road truck as a starting point, and then adjust it as time goes on and you get a better feel for the vehicles dependability. $0.12/mile or $6hr for maintanance and repairs. Obviously a pickup should cost less/mile or hr, but it's someplace to start atleast. Maybe adjust it down abit, right off the bat.:beatsme
Maybe another approach to try is to give your prospective customers a price the local container company would charge to drop and pick up a container that they themselves would have to fill. If your able to beat that price labor included, they would pretty much have no choice, short of doing nothing. It could'nt hurt.
This may work. Of course I can adjust to fit actual costs when I know them. With everything else, say the dump fees, they are set at $45 a ton, easy enough to figure but with the truck not having cost me anything yet as far as maintenance go's I was just curious if there was a general industry formula. Well I am charging .50 a mile now for maintanence and gas. Truck gets 10 miles to the gal and gas here is about $3 a gal, so by my figgerin Im getting .20 a mile over my gas costs now. I was recently thinking "hey, I should be putting away a little something for when the trans does go gunny bags on me" which it will my mech. told me to take it easy on it till I can afford a rebuilt. I paid $500 for the truck and barely limped it the 2 blocks home. But had new front and rear diffs. installed along with ALL new brakes only thing original is the pedal! Seals, u-joints,etc, man I had two and a half pages of stuff done to it that my mech said it needed till my money was used up. I had $3000 from tax return for a truck so I had $1500 for the fixup. Mech. has been a good friend for years not a hack so I trust him, plus I have built mazillons of hot rods over the years so Im not easly fooled when it comes to such things (I am over lots of other things tho lol) I had a point......oh yeah, the truck is old, but it looks decent, not a beater and Im not afraid to take it anywhere with the exception of pulling long hills in this 107 heat with a big load, it really puts the hurt on my trans, but whats a mother to do? Sammy
Waste managment does have a couple of large bins, there is one just down the street at a place that is getting a new roof right now. But thats all they will do here is rent to a very few contractors. When I use to buy and rehab houses I bet I called them 4 or 5 times and they NEVER had one available, never. Some of my customers have tried to get one before they called me but I have only heard of one that got one for a short while, so short in fact that the same guy got ahold of me to haul the 20 or so truck loads still on the property away. I dont know what it takes to get a bin, have to know the secret hand shake I guess. The bad thing here is there are no other pro debris removal services so I can't call or find out what or how they charge. The good thing here is there are no other pro debris removal services so who they gonna call? Lol This is a very small area (pop 5000) and everybody and his uncle Bubba has a truck. I know a few people who will work half the day diggin something out of the back field and haul it away for a case of cheep beer. So I am also targeting the Realtors and contractors for new construction/rental clean up, as Im hoping they want someone that is licensed and insured and sober (and Bubba aint). Thanks all for the help I do appreciate it. Sammy
I had a hard time when I started out too, figuring what cost might actually be. As long as you're putting $$ away for any "unknowns" now, it will still slowly build up(unless you need it right away ) and you can adjust it as you know more later. Having some savings already around before you start out helps take away the jitters about the "what if's", but I didn't have that luxury when I started, and suspect I'm not alone. I started out with a truck and $5000 to my name, and not knowing alot about being an O/O. I made it, but if my tranny or engine would've went out at the beginning I would've been in hurtsville. But they didn't and I was able to make a go of it. You try and understand as best you can about the(any) business, and do the best you can at it, and if luck is on your side, it works out. Good luck with your business Coolride!:yup
Id figure anywhere between .35 and .50 "maintenace costs" per miles
As digger had mentioned you will definitely want to figure in the replacement cost on your truck. Even if your plan is to go into a similar vehicle with similar costs that's definitely something you need to figure into your math. Eventually if you ever get a friend who can help out with accounting or book keeping you can get into depreciation of assetts, etc. But basically if you have 3000 in the truck and you could probably get 500 out of it at the end of its life (maybe). You could get into a larger vehicle for 15,000 in 5 years you would want to consider about $1.43 per hour in replacement costs (just as an example).
Welcome to HEF ILMChris! :drinkup