So, I have a new project to work on soon. Picked up a Gallion 503G grader, and a pile of parts that a mechanic said came out from between the engine and transmission. Have yet to bring it home Apparently it has been re-powered at some point in time to a 4-53 and the engine didnt line up with the transmission properly or the adapter built was vibrating too much or something. Long story short the mechanic pulled it apart and called the customer to let him know. Customer didnt want to spend anymore money on this grader. Made a deal on it the way it is. Mechanic said the 4-53 runs good, and it came with new tires on it. So I guess I'm looking for any information on what would of been there from factory, pictures of the clutch assembly to compare, any tips and tricks that could help me out, part numbers etc. Especially any info from someone whos re-powerd one of these. Even just some pictures of other peoples 503's would be good too. Might keep a smile on my face while pulling out my hair. Thanks in advance
I know that they came with the International diesel engine, don't recall the model. Also came with a Continental F226 gas engine.
I have no idea what it had in it originally. Grader is SN 5131 This is the spacer someone had between the tranny and the block And apparently this is what they built to bolt onto the 4-53 flywheel and extend the clutch out. hydraulic pump appears to be driven of the crank of the motor at the back of the grader. Kindof like a cement truck would be off the front. Probably wont have the grader home for another week or so. Got to find a way to pick up the blade and load it up over the beavertail first.
That is some creative rigging right there ! Good luck with this project and post lots of pictures please.
A Deere 4045 or a 4039 with a SAE 4 flywheel housing and a flat face flywheel is the hot ticket. It came with a F-226 Continental from the factory.
So would this save a lot of work or would I still have to build a lot of adapters and spacers to make the clutch work? I think the way it was there wasn't even a pilot bearing being used It looked like the last install was about 9.5 to 10" of space between the sae3 on the 4-53 and the sae4 on the tranny. However the engine couldn't be moved towards the tranny much farther due to the oilpan clearance. Have you ever repowered a 503? would the deere fit forward with the pan? It seems like you know quite a bit from some other posts i ran across. What would a guy find those deeres in? Do you have any more info that would help out? It might try checking into finding one of these deere's up here. I was hoping to use the 4-53 just due to cost savings but....
If you get a SAE 4 flywheel housing for the Detroit, along with a flat face flywheel, it’ll go in, if it’s a front sump. The Deere’s are pretty easy to find, look for trashed air compressors or street sweepers or such. I’ve done 4 so far, an A with a 4045 Deere, a L with a 4039 Deere, a G with a SD-33T Nissan surplussed by IH for the Scouts, and a 4.236 T Perkins in a AC D with a Galion G transaxle.
The Perkins was a SAE 3 and it fit, but was a pain to get together. We had a SAE 3-4 adapter ring made and the only way to get it together was install the pressure plate and disc loose on the input shaft, bolt up the engine and put the pressure plate on the flywheel through the hand hole.
Mine (503L)has a Waukesha vrd60 I think
I can't say that is the most screwed up "A-dapta Kit" I have ever seen, but it's sure as hell a contender. I cannot imagine the vibration if you ever actually assembled that and lit it off.
i thought it looked pretty good the first time. I hadn't waited long enough to see the crankshaft extension pic
Yeah, it doesn't look like they put much effort into making sure those two bell housings mated flat and centered?
It seemed to me to be a broken crankshaft waiting to happen. Someone really over (or under) thought the repower process.
So. After a day of calling around, I've turned up a possible deere. In a pelican street sweeper. Thinks its a 4039T. Wants $4000.00 Cad. Its a 4.5 hr drive away (got to take the whole sweeper so i would have all accessories) And has no idea on what sae bolt pattern it is. If the deere is not a sae 4 is it hard to convert and are parts readily avalible? Is it to much for the tranny / axles of the grader? Being that it drives a hydraulic pump on the sweeper I would still need to find a flywheel? and obviously a clutch. Would either of the SAE 3 to 4 adapters by hayes work to mate the 4-53 sae 3 to the sae 4 transmission ( one is 1 inch or so thick). or would it be a PITA to mate a clutch setup to? would I be able to use a sae 3 flywheel still and make a clutch fit it. From what i saw on the 4-53 i would need to change out the back plate of the motor to go to a sae 4 properly. Also i cannot source one up here. Not new to working on equipment and rebuilding diesels but never had to rework anything like this. Everything else has been take apart, repair with part numbers and re-assemble. Parts are in a pile for this machine so i didnt even get to take it apart to see how it was. Dont want to waste alot of money doing it wrong. Thanks for the info so far.
I have some scrap Deere engines out of Pelicans. I could measure the housing if you like.
The #3 on the Detroit can be made to work. You will have to do some very careful measuring of the input shaft on the transaxle and size the thickness of the adapter ring accordingly. Most machine shops can turn out an adapter on a lathe without much drama. The oil pan is the next problem, a front sump or a cut and weld sump is next. A automotive flat face flywheel is needed. Lastly ditch the through shaft hydraulic drive and run a larger GPM pump off the front of the motor, maybe a double pump to run a full hydrostatic steering setup. To plug the hollow input shaft use a USA nickel as a soft plug to keep the oil in. We always used the current year to know when it was done.
If you could it would be apreciated. Also if you could take a pic of the flywheel and oilpan so i can guess a bit better.
The oilpan is a front sump and it already has the hydraulics running off the crank on the front of the motor currently. It still has the shaft in the tranny though but didnt seem to connect to anything engine side. Love the nickle idea. However trying to get a usa 2021 nickle up in canada right now just aint gonna fly. Been missing my trips down to Montana and Idaho. Oh well. Used to order a Ton of project parts to a friends house in montana and pick them up with the wife and kids ($800 duty exemption each) and what i saved on duty and shipping would pay for a 10 day holiday down there. Swaying more towards the deere right now.
Hope this helps. Let me know what you’re going to do with the sweeper after. I may be interested. Thanks
So according to your measurements I think I would have to call it a SAE 3. It also looks like I would need to get a different flywheel to accept a pressure plate. and find a way to go from SAE 3 to SAE 4 still. Either by an adapter plate or by changing the bellhousing on the deere if it is possible to do. I wonder if a good machine shop could drill the flywheel to accept a pressure plate? Thanks for the pics. If i go this way im not shure what i will do with the rest of the parts by I'll keep you in mind when im done with everything (been wanting to build a hydraulic log mill so there might be some more goodies disappearing), lol
That’s just a flex plate bolted on the back of the flywheel. I’ll get one of my guys to zip it off to see what’s underneath.
A SAE 4 housing is pretty common on Deere’s. @DB2 has a good looking motor there, a little looking will net you a housing. The last one I did, I bought a used flywheel out of a farm tractor and turned the OD, the face in .625, and bored the center for a pilot bearing. It was a lot of work.
Likely a stepped flywheel for an over-center clutch.
Just so we’re clear that motor is staying put. Lol I’m just trying to help with the options that are on the Pelican engine he may be getting. Personally I would look for a 4045 but you have to work with what’s available. I’ll get that other picture later on this afternoon. Thanks
The 4039D I put in the L was out of a LeRoi compressor and it was plenty of power. The 4045D has a little more low end torque, but the 4039D did well. The Perkins I used was a monster and I had the CAV pump set to the low side of the range when it was rebuilt. There wasn’t a hill anywhere here that it wouldn’t pull in 4th gear, just chug to the top. Honestly anything over 75HP is more engine than there is traction. The real advantage of big power is when you couple it with a 13 or so GPM hyd pump so you can grade at just off idle with good blade response and have reserve power galore. Before you do ANY grading see some of my posts about drop arm re-enforcement, and trunnion ball lube mods, it’s IMPORTANT.
Sorry she is a burn victim and the hub won’t relax it’s grip on the pilot. The flywheel is flat though. I know some Pelicans came with Cummins 4BT3.9’s as well if that helps your search.
DB2 thank you for looking at that. A couple of questions for you as it sounds like you know street sweepers well. 1. How heavy are they? Could I haul one back on a tandem dually gooseneck (2 x 10,000lbs axles) with a f450? Plates and insurance is off the T800 till frost is out of the ground. 2. If so it looks like they have the rear wheels centered? Got to find a way to get it up on the trailer as the 2 beavertails are on the outside. Any suggestions on the rear axle weight of the sweeper to come up with a plan for a ramp? 3. Are they easiest to load forwards or backwards? RepowerGuy So with knowing what we know now. Will the 4039T work with the flywheel in my application if it is the same as in the picture above? Would a SAE 3 to 4 adapter work instead of finding a SAE 4 bellhousing. I am assuming if I change the bellhousing I would need a smaller flywheel, different starter etc. If adapter will work, will clutch and flywheel for a SAE3 still work? Or do i need the SAE 4 bellhousing to clear the crossmember by the transmission? That 4039T will fit in place without issues with the oil pan clearances? Clutch and pressure plate should be available at a john deere dealer? presumably off of a tractor model? Also im not understanding why you needed to turn the flywheel face down .625 in post #22 The pilot bearing.... I didn't have one to look at when i looked at the grader. I assume it must ride on the main shaft as the pump shaft will be removed. I believe the end of the main shaft is damaged from the previous conglomeration of parts and is wore thin (see through) on one side. Is it hard to pull out to repair that shaft. was thinking machine down and press in some solid stock. Effectivly pulgging the hollow and making a new machinable surface for a pilot bearing? Do you have a better idea? Want to make sure I know what all I need before I start buying parts, sweeper, etc. Just want to make sure everything will work out without dumping a load of money into this 60 year old grader. Might be used on a few small jobs but mainly bought for doing a 1300' laneway thats got a 23% slope near the one end (top of a hill). But if it works out great you never know how often it will be used. (Have been contacted already about possible upkeep on goat trails to tower sites) Apparently they figure its the perfect size. Also I spent a few hours searching for your recommendations on drop arm re-enforcement, and trunnion ball lube mods. Not sure why but the search function is showing no results. Would you be able to post a link? I do ALOT of fab work so I'm sure the benefits will outweigh the time and materials spent. Once I get it home, running, fully functioning and leak free, then I will be cleaning up the welds on it and going over it, giving it some of my own mods, give it a new coat of paint. etc. As Always I appreciate the help!
RepowerGuy, Found the thread HeavyEquipmentForums Couldnt find it with the search bar in the fourm but google pulled it up.
Empty weight around 15000 pounds. Sorry I’m old and still deal with both metric and standard variations. Could be much heavier if there is any material left over in the hopper which is centered between the front wheels. Pop open the front door for a look. The guide wheels are about 24 inches apart and I would allow at least 7000 pounds for their weight. We always load dead ones by picking up the rear and pushing on a trailer with a 3 yd. loader. The hydraulically linked steering will operate via the steering wheel without the engine running providing there is still oil in the system. If you choose to winch it on in reverse I would bolster your ramps accordingly. Again check what’s in the hopper and proceed accordingly. If not frozen it could be shoveled out. With this I’m assuming the engine won’t start. If it’s in a running state just use the lever and dump it out.
As always, measure, measure, measure! The SAE 3 was on a Perkins and it “fit” but was a pain to get in. If I remember correctly, we had to grind some off the bottom of the housing to clear the hump in the transaxle. We used a shallow SAE 3 so we didn’t have a issue with the added thickness from the adapter ring. The flywheel I machined was out of a tractor and it fit in the SAE 4 housing after I trimmed some off the OD and it was also super thick, so that’s why I cut the face down .625”. If you want to do a road trip, I have a complete UD-236 out of a L series. It ran but I later found out the injectors and pre-cups were installed upside down after it was rebuilt. I had plans for it but I’ve too much to do and I’ll sell it for a reasonable price. Shoot me a PM if you are interested.
Update. Well Its been a while. The street sweeper was sold before i could pick it up. Dam! Kijiji and FCFS pickups. So Ive been hunting for other possible choices. Everything Ive found in Gensets and air compressors either went for the moon or was an SAE 3. However Ive stumbled upon an SD33 Nissan in a SAE 4. Going to try to fire it up once the starter is rebuilt. I see that Repowerguy has used a SD33T in another one and was wondering if he could shed some insight on the oil pan. It looks like it will hit the differrential as it is a rear sump. From what I can tell ( from pictures on the net) the oil pan can not be flipped around due to bolt holes not lining up. It appears from online pictures the oil pickup is in the middle of the block. The Engine was attached to a twin disk clutch im guessing to run a centerfuge for drilling mud based on the colors. Being the engine was sitting for a while I pulled the glow plugs that were never hooked up and squirted diesel in the cylinders and left it overnight. Went to crank it over by hand and the cylinders were still full of diesel so Im thinking compression is good. Also pulled the valve cover to make sure valve train was moving and it was probably the cleanest ive seen underneath. Signs are looking good. Repowerguy - Do you remember... 1. How the SD33 was in the grader? it appears it is 78HP in the NA version 2. How the oil pan lined up or what you did to make it happen? 3. Clutch and flywheel info if possible? SD33 flywheel is dished - also it seems Im misisng some parts originally on the graders clutch..... like most of a throwout bearing and who knows what else. never worked on this kind of stuff where i couldn't take in my original clutch plate and have it measured up or relined. or bought by application Pictures.....
Well HA, it’s been close to 30 years since I did the swap so as @lantraxco says, YMMV. The SD33T we used was surplused from IH for the Scouts that they were going to build, but bankruptcy or whatever halted that. I THINK we cut off the sump and moved if forward and filled the hole with the cutout. The pickup, for the life of me I can’t remember how we repositioned it. Likely cut and fit. The flywheel was a flat face automotive style ready to go, I think the holes lined up for the pressure plate without having to redrill them. A company called JESCO in Texas I think bought all of the engines shortly after we got ours. If they are still around, they may have a flywheel laying around still. The turbo version was more than adequate at 101hp but wasn’t a torque monster off idle like the Perkins or the Deeres. The high idle was something like 3200 rpm so the G it was in had a top speed of 50 mph for “safe” highway travel.