Little early to be headed south for the winter? eh. or............ Is the Canada dollar really that bad that this is your new travel trailer. Seriously, I like the old Pettibones.
Hahahahahaha! Very good. Not headed south yet! Just moving the FARMiture around!! I think there is a warmth to running old iron. Its like living history.
Oh Nooooo! I broke my Pettibone! Nearly dropped the hoe right off it. Snapped the bottom bracket clean. Whattaya think fellas? Is it salvageable? Any other old iron nuts have any ideas? I would just hate to scrap her.
V the crack in the boom, weld it, and fishplate it on the sides with diamond shaped 1/2" plates with rounded ends. Best not to cut them to a point and make a stress point. Used properly it should be fine. It looks to be fitted up reasonably well. The bottom bracket will weld up also. I gotta ask. How did you bust it that badly? Move a barn instead of just a shed?
Well...... kind of. I had a load of logs pre-slung on a trailer. I lifted the load (heavy) crowded up close, plan was to just swing it 90 degrees and land it. Unfortunately in my attempt to catch the swing, I was not paying close enough attention to the stops, and BANG, SNAP, creeeeeaaaaaaaak, she laid down sideways about 20 degrees. I was able to stand it up with the hydraulics and get her secured with chains and cinches. THEN, true to Pettibone standards, I FINISHED THE JOB (6 more loads) using the front end loader instead!
And thank you Old Iron Habit for the tip. I had the V the crack part of the process figured but had not considered the fish plate. I will do that for sure. (After California!)
Preheat to 300-400 deg's would be beneficial. Make sure to get 100% penetration. I had similar repairs on my backhoe but welded it up with 7018 and all is well.
Thank you Welder Dave. If I could pick your brain some more..... The bottom bracket is about 4" thick and 7" across. How does one V that? Presumably horizontally but to go down 4" to 0 width at the bottom, how wide should my opening 4" up at the top be?? And how, die grinder? Angle grinder? Any suggestions are appreciated. I am hoping to weld it while the hoe is still attached so as to keep the alignment of the brackets to the hoe.
First thing is make sure it isn't cast iron. I don't think it is but good to verify with a grinder or see if a corner will cut with a cutting torch. I'd guess cast steel which is readily weldable. Need some better pics. and not real close up to better see exactly how it's broken. Bevel needs to wide enough you can get a welding rod down to the bottom. Angle isn't too critical but 100% penetration is. The process of welding it is more important and may need to be beveled from both sides. I think the hoe will have to be taken off to do a proper repair and have enough room. Might be able to tack some temporary braces on it to hold it in position to get the hoe off. My repair was a little different. I ripped the top swing mount right off and bent the bottom 1-1/2" thick swing mount. Although the bottom mount wasn't cracked, I v'd it out so I could straighten it but didn't push it completely straight as that would have added stress. I allowed for the weld to pull it back somewhat on cooling. Had a friend come out with a rosebud for final alignment. I took the replaceable bushings for the swing out and had a piece of heavy wall pipe the same size (3" OD) so I could align the top and bottom swing pivots. For the final fitting I put the replaceable bushings back in and had a piece of heavy wall 2-1/2" tubing turned for .005" clearance. When welding up the V I ground into the weld from the other side to be sure there were no slag inclusions or other flaws. That way I could insure 100% penetration. When welding top mount on that was only 1" thick, I ground a bevel on both sides of the plate to give more penetration and weld reinforcement on the weld in bushing. It was only welded with 1 pass around the top and bottom from the factory. I bought a used welder ($1300) to do the repair because I figured it would have cost a few thousand to hire the job out. Welder has paid for itself several times over with other projects. If I wasn't an experienced welder I wouldn't have attempted it. In hindsight I should have taken pics. of how I repaired it.
Thank you Welder Dave. That is excellent and very helpful advice. I love the idea of a heavy wall pipe to insert through the holes to ensure alignment. Didn't even cross my mind but that is a great simple solution to my rather complex problem. I am concerned that because the top mount yielded sideways after the bottom mount snapped that they are no longer turning on the same axis so the pipe plan will resolve that as well. I am convinced it is cast steel. Grinder sparks pop like fireworks. I have laid a lot of stick over the years but I am by no means a professional. I am still using my old Hobart AC buzzbox that was an antique when I was a kid! It will burn 7014 all day no problem but it is not happy with 7018. Flat horizontal I can do ok. Vertical......maybe c+. Overhead....F I understand what you say about inclusions. Also I have been told about a melt crayon that can be used to be sure the piece isnt getting too hot or too cold while welding the casting up. I think I want to give this a try. Hiring someone just doesn't make economic sense for this old beast. 7014 rod...... is ok you think?
NO on the 7014! It is not designed for dynamic loading. It is for static loading applications. Dynamic basically means under stress. A static load would be like a table designed to hold 1000lbs. sitting on it. A dynamic load would be like dropping 1000lbs. from 4' on the table. Tempilsticks are the best way to get correct temperature. If you did most of the prep work and got everything apart might not be too expensive to have a welder do the welding. If the rest of the machine is in good shape it's worth fixing properly.
Ahhhhhh. Saved from MYSELF again!! Thanks so much Welder Dave. Probably better now to spend the money hiring a pro than buying a welder that will handle 7018. I think you're right. If I do the prep work.....
Have a welder take a look at it first and he can tell you how he wants it prepped and or braced before it comes apart. Then you can take it apart, prep it and have all the line up pins/pipe ready for him. Take measurements for spacing so it will fit back together. Might not be a bad idea to have more than 1 welder look at it if the 1st one isn't sure. Preferably someone who has worked on heavy equipment and/or structural welding. I've seen some fantastic pipeline welders who were out of their element welding structural. You should be able to get a good feeling after they look at what needs done.
If you had a more capable welder, I would recommend you get a carbon arc gouging lead and a box of rods to bevel out the cracks. If your time is worth much, that would be the way to go. As far as going vertical with 7018, if you had a friend to guide a little, that would be a good place to get comfortable with it. Once you get the first few passes in and you able to have enough room to weave a little you should pick up the uphill pretty quickly. That was some 1/2” I cut out on Thursday in the frame of dirt bucket. That took all of about 6 minutes once the leads were pulled out. It would be very interesting to see some larger pictures of the cracked area. It was a little hard to follow exactly how they were oriented. The guys around here that move portable sheds and outbuilding use trucks and hydraulic trailers. They do not have near as much style as your operation there! Bravo!
By “more capable welder” in that other post, I should have stated that more clearly. What I meant to say was you need a little more capable welding machine. No belittlement toward your talents intended.
I agree with this, but likely that swing tower is a fairly rare part. It may be cheaper in the long run to have it done right the first time.
You need a good DC welder for gouging along with about a 30 CFM compressor. Gouging is almost a direct short and hard on a welding machine. The other thing that's real important when gouging is that everything has to be ground to remove any traces of carbon. Having a carbon deposit is similar to having a slag inclusion. For the repair to last I agree with RZucker. The welding needs to be done by someone with enough experience. If the welder had a gouger and air compressor set up could speed things up but proper gouging also requires experience and blows hot metal and sparks at high velocity. You don't want to accidently hit the wrong part when gouging or burn something else up.
You guys rock. I really appreciate the input. Its a tough call you know. I have been seriously considering buying a new welder for this job and giving it a go. Then at least I have a good welder at the end of this ordeal. And Blocker, thanks for your concern. No offense was taken. I know that my old Hobart buzzbox and I are a good fit for each other! We BOTH SUCK at welding!!! Hahahah. But as you say, with a more capable welder, I may be a better welder which in itself would be a win. So thanks again everyone for your inputs. So much to think about.
A better machine makes it easier to weld but doesn't instantly make you a better welder. Sorry but if you want the repair to last it needs to be done by someone with the required experience. If it was a crack in the bucket or a new bushing needed to be welded in, then go for it. That's a big powerful machine. If it comes apart again may not be repairable.
OK! SO! THIS happened....... while I was grinding the cracks down to the roots, I SET MY CROTCH ON FIRE!!! The heat from the flames didn't hurt as much as the smacking myself in the balls to put the fire out!!
AFTER changing my pants and putting some coveralls on, I straightened her out using the stabilizer "hydraulic hoe straightener" and finished the grinding..
Then it was time to lay some 7018 DCEP on her AFTER spark and drill tests confirmed I was welding cast STEEL.
THEN LET HER COOL NICE AND SLOW
AND THEN POLISH IT ALL UP SO NOBODY CAN SEE WHAT A LOUSY WELDER I AM!!!
That stabilized the top yoke so I could now focus on the completely SNAPPED bottom yoke
So I rigged a sling from the front bucket above the cab to the elbow on the hoe so that when I lower the front bucket it pivots the hoe up on the top pin of the yoke, allowing me access to remove the bottom pin, and broken yoke and to bevel the broken faces to make room for more 7018
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW. Any further advice and or criticism at this point is both welcomed and appreciated. Encouragement gives me confidence to move forward. Warnings and criticism cause me to do so very carefully. Thanks again all for both.
Generally when doing welding related tasks you finish what you're doing before putting out clothing fires. The exception is when your crotch is on fire! Either that or now we know why you call yourself Pettiboner. Did you have an experienced welder look at it and did you preheat it before welding? Did you buy a new DC welder? Did you grind everything to clean steel with no slag between passes? It's really important. The little area that didn't quite get enough weld near the edge at the top should be preheated and filled up with weld or it could lead to a crack. You could this just before you put the fish plate on. A flap disc would smooth it better and radius the corners on the edges. Need to put an oval shaped fish plate about 3/4" less width than the repaired area on it and run about a 5/16"-3/8" fillet weld around it. I'd make the fish plate out of 3/8" or 1/2" plate if there's enough room when it swings. Might want to take out the bushing for the pin on the bottom. The bottom will need a bunch of preheat and make sure there is enough room to get to the bottom of the bevel with the electrode. The pivot bore may not stay round but preheating around the entire hole will help. You really need to make sure to get a sound weld on the bottom and it should have some oval fish plates on either side.
Hi Dave! Yes on all 3 counts, Welder buddy helped me test the steel. He said its good quality steel and that I could weld just like anything else. He said forget the word "cast" and carry on like it was steel EXCEPT....pre-heat to at least 150 and wrap in insulation to cool (which was easy). Also told me to lay vertical "stringers" instead of stitch welding to prevent localized heat build up. I was METICULOUS about slag. Even sharpened my slag hammer to a fine point. When my needle nose slag hammer and wire wheel could not get the junk out (about 3 times) I ground it out and laid more stick to it. And YES, I bought a new welder from Harbour Freight Tools in Oregon on my snowbird return migration. $450 USD. What a difference laying it in on DC! On the bottom I am thinking to leave 1/2" margin intact for realignment. Plan is to put the pin back in the hole and set the weight of the hoe back on the joint before welding her back up. This should keep the hole round yes?? After welding it back in, I will go in from the bottom for the last 1/2" Thoughts on that?
Also, When bottom is done, I will swing the hoe to the side to be sure a fishplate will not interfere. Then will go with your advice on both the fishplate and the clean up on top. Thanks for that too.
I would have used more preheat due the pieces being so thick and to ensure better fusion on the sides of the groove. Bevel could have had more angle. Not sure what you mean by stitch welds but your heat looked a little cold. Weave or stringer beads would work on the vertical welds. Just want to have multiple passes instead of a couple great big ones and make sure to twist your wrist to the sides. There's going to be a lot of expansion and contraction from welding the bottom. Having the pin in for the whole process could limit this and cause internal stresses from being too restrained. Not sure what the heat will do to the bushing. Maybe just keep checking if the pin fits during the welding process. Might want to keep an eye how hot it gets and take a break every couple of passes so it doesn't get super hot. After I welded up the groove I would grind the ends out and run vertical welds to ensure complete fusion at the start and stop of the horizontal groove weld.
Brilliant plan on the end welds. I will absolutely do that. Excellent advice! Thank you again!!! I bought an infrared thermometer to keep an eye on the inter pass temps. That bottom one will be a LOT of rod and I plan to weld it HOT so yes, I will definitely watch for the heat build up. I hear you about the preheat up top and I talked to my guy about that too. The thinking is two fold to stay cooler, 1- it is a HUGE casting (~400lbs) and getting the whole thing heated up would be impossible without disassembling the hoe and removing the hoses so as not to set them ablaze, and 2, running stringers instead of weave (stitching is something else I was reading for cast iron) will prevent localized heat build up. He told me you gotta go hot or you gotta stay cool, one or the other but... you gotta first drive off any moisture so....minimal preheat on the top casting since it was only cracked and not snapped.
So much to know
Yes, lots to know. How come your welder friend didn't weld it? Cast steel needs preheat especially if it's 400lbs. Cast iron is a totally different animal as to being hot or cold for specific repairs. The best cast iron repairs require heating the entire piece over 1000 deg's. and then slow cooling. Keeping it cooler because you didn't want to take the hoses off, really? Cracked or snapped still needs a proper repair. Not enough heat input into large pieces can result in a quenching effect that can lead to failure. You have to think the original casting took a lot of force to break and that same force is still there after it's repaired. The best repair would have been to tack or brace it in place and then take it apart. Lots of work but the best chance for success. The fish plates should help though as long as the repair behind them is mostly sound. Good luck.
Thanks Dave, My buddy the welder is not my friend the welder. Thats why I am doing it! Advice is way less expensive than labour. Inter pass temps were measured throughout and remained near 300F after the first couple stringers were laid in. Exactly as you say, thinking about the forces that cracked the top yoke, was the hoe laying over sideways loaded with a load of logs hanging off it when the bottom yoke snapped after me allowing the boom to slam against the stop full force. Confidence is high that force will never be repeated! It will hold under regular usage, especially with the fish plate added. Re and re the hoe is just not worth the time on this old girl. She was 3 wheels into the scrap yard with this failure. Appreciate your excellent advice. Seriously do. Are you still in the welding business?
How are you going to hold alignment so the pins align when done. Are yo going to reinstall the pin and weld in place? EDIT: I reread the post and did see where you are having the hoe setting on it. I think I would have the pin in the hole or it will probably pull enough to make the pin install difficult if not impossible. It may be a bit snug when done but a couple turns back and forth and some grease added it should work well for your use.
Duplicate post to below, not sure why. See if you can find a pipe the same size as the bottom pin. That way you don't compromise the pin if it gets stuck or something. I'm not sure what the pressed in hardened bushing will do with all the heat though. I'd prefer to take that bushing out and use a pipe the same size to keep the alignment. If you have a torch put some heat on the finished weldment to really slow cool it and help take some stress out. Peening all the passes with a dull chipping hammer is a good idea too.
The site has been acting weird tonight. It showed duplicate posts of mine and OIH so I made a note and it deleted the other ones too. Might be my internet, it's been acting up today. "Advice is way less expensive than labor."... You haven't got my bill yet. Just do my own stuff now. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be. I welded in a bunch of different industries and worked with some phenomenal welders. Being in Alberta also had excellent training. I try to pass on what I've learned over the years and there's still a lot more to learn. Knowing the basics is a good start though as is learning how to make accurate cuts with a torch. It sure beats grinding. I always try to make repairs and projects look professional instead of scabbing stuff together. A little OCD maybe but your work is your signature. Should have taken pics. of some the things I've worked on, especially repairing my backhoe swing mounts. That was one of my proudest repairs when it fit back together after all that work. Was a little room for error but not much. I'm a firm believer in doing the best job you can the first time.
Tried to post this last night but the internet shut down. Was thinking about this more. If there's nothing on the bottom in the way make a fish plate (concave on end and convex on the other) and tack or weld it in place. It will hold the parts in alignment and then you can widen the groove at the bottom and weld right into the fish plate. This will insure 100% penetration in the groove and be easier than welding the groove overhead. Welds around the fish plate aren't as critical as the groove as they are for reinforcement. If there isn't room for a fish plate tack a flat bar (backing bar) on the bottom to fill up the groove and then grind it off. A bunch of grinding but still easier than overhead welding the groove.
THAT is a million dollar plan right there. THANK YOU! I am going with that for sure. Welder Dave, Pettiboner's FAVE!
You need my address for the cheque? Not often but every once in awhile I have a good idea.
It lives, IT LIVES!!! A huge THANK YOU to all (espe ially you Dave) for all the advice and encouragement. Pettiboner lives to dig another day.
Thanks for the update! Looks pretty good. It always nice to see how a repair turns out. If the welds are sound (no slag, lack of fusion or porosity) it should be good. The vertical welds would have been better to do up hand but as long as they have some penetration should be fine. I'd imagine it was pretty hot. I'd grind them a little smoother myself and round off the bottom edge because all the weld craters are there and that's where cracks can start.
Yah that bottom one was a bit tricky. No clearance for fishplates as the hoe swings around pretty tight. So I took your earlier advice and ground out the sides, filled them up with horizontal beads and then overlaid vertically. There's a lot of screwing around in there!!! I also ended up grinding up from the bottom to get to the other side of the weld that I did from up top. Got a chance to practice my overhead....... There was a lot of air chisel work to peen those beads and clean it all up as I came back out. I will make you a deal Dave. If it never breaks, I send you that chegue!!
Hopefully for you I don't live long enough for that to happen. You can call it your Art Deco repair.
Welder Dave!! You still out there?? I was thinking of you the other day!! I could feel your consternation while I was testing the strength of that weld!!!!
You did a good job welding.