I was checking out in$=^€=× and somebody had posted a pic of a 651b. They stated that they werent a fan of the old stuff but appreciated the work that had been done and the fact the machine was still running. The other people that commented on his post,some were for the old and i was surprised how many were for the newer stuff.Most for the new stuff didnt like the idea of the open cab and reckoned the old 51 would be rough to operate.Well ive been on 51bs and 51es and the b was actually abit smoother than the e.I pointed out to them that the biggest contractors in the states like Sukut,Indies and a few others still have big fleets of 51bs for mainly two reasons,they can just keep on rebuilding them and the main reason being theres no quicker way to move dirt than with 51s and dozers pushing them.Cat dont make 51s anymore but it could safely be said if they did make a 51g or k that the chances of it lasting as long as a 51b would be nil.As far as a g or k being smoother to operate than a 51b that too would be a nil.Cat seem to have forgotten about weight to power ratio,making for instance the 57g around 5 ton lighter and a fair bit more H.P than a 57E so much more rougher to operate i couldnt believe it.Yes they have a much fancier cab inside and thats all.Seen the 37ks and they have a fair amount of plastic on them plus you can bet the metal on them is thin as and the H.P is probably more again than a 37g and who knows how much lighter so they will more than likely be absolute pigs when the going gets rough.Another noteable machine that Cats stuffed up on are the big dozers,an old mate of mine has been on the big tractors for 40 years now and he told me if theres a D10 or 11 T,R or N he will go straight past the T,he reckons too light too rough too much H.P for the weight and weight is probably the most important thing when your working in rock. Be interested to hear what anyone else thinks about the old vs the new and the people from the states any news on a 657K and when it may be released.I read somewhere the last 57g was built so it must be soon.
Like Member Scrub puller used to say .. " Machines change with time but the dirt don't " . I like an open station machine for visibility & spiting tobacco . HeavyEquipmentForums My take is the Yellow Iron performance peaked around 1975 for the most part . They had the horse power & gears to back it up . Look at a Cat D7G dozer from that era ….. Will a 2018 model dozer same size produce anymore today ? The mid 1970's D7G don't stop for trouble codes out of a wiring harness to a computer . If it shuts down there's really something wrong .
Up until recently California Department of Forestry was still running some 1960s oval track 6 or 7 size machine(s), with full glass and air conditioning of course but when they get good maintenance and not too much work they run forever....
Old machines needed air and fuel . New machines need computer ,sensors ,def ,re gen mode, collage education to work on ,computer to diagnose and calibrate
What happens when your fighting those big fire and your machine goes into re'gen mode "could cost you your life" my little kobota m7060 has a button its to be pushed in if its not it eventually goes into re'gen mode when least expected so you have to wait for it to clear the exhaust out.
I'm only 41, been dirt moving since I was 5, productively since i was 17. I came up on late 70's and early 80's machines. I've run the new stuff as well. I'd take the old iron any day of the week.
I'm kind of in between on the new versus old arguments now days. I've worked on D8s from 13A up to D8T. I don't think anyone wants to go back to direct drive 13A model machines. Many are a little conflicted of the D8T machines as well but for operators and owners there is no decision to make on that proposal. So many would propose the argument of a D8H against the D8T? The high horsepower 8H was a great machine that lugged and chugged through most any type of project. It was predictable in how long it would last and what it would cost to run it. It was easy to run and fairly comfortable for the operators of the time frame. Run the same comparison with operators and owners and again you get the same answer. The 8T would still be the selection. Even with all the electronics and issues that input into the cost equations, the 8T still is cheaper to run per material moved. An 8H was only good for around 8,000 hours before some major component failure. I've seen plenty of 8Ts up around 15,000 hours without a major rebuild. It's nice to reminisce about running or working on the older stuff or whine and complain about the cost or fixing problems on the new. But you really don't want to think about going backwards.
Its not only the breakdowns mainly electrical stuff but the newer gear does not seem as solid as the old and with the scrapers and big dozers beat the operators up more.Ive got off a G model scraper and felt like i had been hit by a truck after a12 hr day and the next day been on a E for 12hrs and finished a lot better than the day before.Dont like how it doesnt take much of a fault to either make them go to an idle or shut them down.A lot of the time theres nothing wrong at all just the computer and censors all confused.
Aren't there any studies detailing amount of material moved by a newer more efficient machine that also includes the time lost to breakdowns? Or studies of repair cost vs operating hours or better yet vs yard of material moved? Or downtime vs the same?
Somebody has a signature on one of the forums that says " We are stuck with technology what we really want is stuff that works" so true.
Hey John , what do you think about comparing a mid 70'S Cat D7G up against a Cat D6T ? Machines are very close to horsepower & weight . Production output would be pretty close on those two dozers . http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specifi...ctor&make=Caterpillar&model=D7G&modelid=90768 http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specification?category=Crawler Tractor&make=CATERPILLAR&model=d6t xl&modelid=90520 I'm just a small time operator still trying to figure this all out . Seen the threads where the " high drive " undercarriage & pivot shaft had to be replaced . Looked like big bucks ! Wonder what the cost difference would be rebuilding an old D7G verses a D6T ? Could be engine , undercarriage or whole tractor . I'm guessing you could rebuild two D7G's for the same cost of rebuilding one D6T today ? Random thoughts .
I'll play devils advocate somewhat. I like the air suspension seats, A/C and radios in the newer machines (I'm in Alabama we don't need no stinkin' heat ). Yeah we've had issues with our newer equipment (2004 YR MDL +) but the production and operator comfort far outweighs those issues. The newer machines have been very productive with a good operator environment for what we do and I for one don't want to go backwards. Just put this auto laser blade to work on the 279 last week. Bench the blade to the grade and hit auto - no grade checker and no blue tops. We put down 500 tons of dense grade base today with a D5G, 279D pictured and a smooth drum roller with 2 operators. Not one hub nor blue top was needed and the stone was within 1/2" of spec. If I don't embrace and use this technology my competition will... Just my $.02 and it's worth everything you paid for it.
The Old Man said I should have went strait to the patent office with the gage wheels on the box blade . To late now ! LOL Nice work CM ! Rolling in # 73 stone ? That packs great with the fines in it .
Youse guys will think me bat guano crazy, but I loved the late 60's Euclid/Terex TS-24's with the 12V-71 up front and the 6-71 in the rear. Simple to keep running and could run the wheels off a 637. Ask me how I know. I figured it up around 2001 and could buy 40 TS-24s for the price of a "CAT Certified" 637 rebuild.
I like those old green meanies as well but you would get the price of that one rebuild back in spades compared to keeping 40 TS24s running. How many people know how to set up the transmission shift points in those things any more.
I suppose the simplest way to compare two models of two different time periods is by using the Cat Performance manuals. I have a few of them and might even still have a DVD of one a couple of years old. I'll look around tomorrow.
The funny part is, in 2002 I got to run that old Euclid against that 637 rebuild when the CAT dealer wanted some test time on our job. Damp sandy loam with no pusher I could get dirt over the draft arms, the 37 couldn't come close. They kept plugging in the laptop and playing with tire pressure, the final excuse was " It's meant to be a push-pull machine, by itself it's helpless". They did let me run it... what a dog.
Thanks TD. That's ALDOT dense grade base. It goes through a pug mill, mostly 3/4 crush with #4's and slurry. DGB is the spec for base under paving.
OK I did a quick and dirty comparison between the D6T Tier 4 final machine that is current and a D7G. The D7 model line was built between 1975 and 2003 so I figured the middle of that range (1989) for an age. I used the 25th anniversary Performance Handbook for the D7G and I down loaded book #47 from Warren Cat for the D6T Tier 4 final. I configured the D6T with a PAT blade, differential steer, C9.3 engine @ 202 horsepower, 22" track shoes, 109 gallon fuel tank plus 4.5 gallon DEF tank. Machine weight in this configuration shows 52,167 pounds. The drawbar pulls are approximate from a graph. First gear 85,000, second gear 50,000 and third gear 27,000. This model machine has a 54 gallon per minute hydraulic system with high relief of 3,125 PSI. Average calculated fuel consumption is 6 gallons per hour. Undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $8.40 per hour. The D7G is configured with a SU blade, standard steering, 3306 @ 200 horsepower, 20" track shoes, 115 gallon fuel tank. Machine weight in this configuration shows 45,560 pounds. The drawbar pulls again are approximate from a graph. First gear 75,000, second gear 42,000, third gear 25,000. The D7 hydraulic system is 58.5 gallons per minute with a relief valve setting at 2,250 PSI. Average calculated fuel consumption is 7.75 gallons per hour and the undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $14.73 per hour. The D6T Tier 4 generally in these calculations is the hands down winner in horsepower, drawbar pull, fuel usage, hydraulic function, fuel usage and undercarriage costs. There is a lot more to ownership costs than what I have stated here but these for the most part show a trend. Now throw in the the D7 generally came with an open cab, brake and clutch steering and standard power shift transmission with no auto shift functions plus the added bonus of needing a one hundred ton press anytime you had to repair final drives and to an owner it doesn't look like the best use of capital.
Cm1995.... keep an eye on those crazy wheel bearings, they problably will be the first thing that'll give you trouble,,, I've repaced my bearings at 800 hrs on mine.
Thanks for the comparison run down on the two machines John . That's interesting looking at the data & options then crunching the $ numbers on the two tractors . We lived pretty close to the Nebraska Tractor test track back in the early 1970's Was a treat to walk over with the Old Man & watch them running a tractor though the test facility . https://tractortestlab.unl.edu/ They used to test dozers back in the day when the track was dirt . Would have been an interesting place to work . Test on a Cat D7 from 1956 . http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2101&context=tractormuseumlit
We worked a job years ago where the paving contractor was hauling in " Pug Mill " stone . Got to talking to him & the way he described it was like mixing concrete with exact proportions of stone & fines along with water % in it . Trucks would spread it out & contractor could rock & roll with the grader & roller . Most of our jobs go with # 53's for stone drive ways & roads . They are not as consistent as the " Pug Mill " . Some loads will have a lot of fines & others more coarse aggregate . Some are dry & dusty others are damp depending on conditions at the quarry . End result have to run over it with an orange 4 cylinder " Chug Mill " . That last batch was wet with a lot of fines . It set up pretty tight .
Well those are some compelling numbers. Now we need to somehow put a dollar value on engine repairs and unscheduled downtime including waiting for a qualified mechanic to show up to do something specialized with tier 4 or some of the fancy electronics. I imagine this is highly variable depending on distance from a major city.
Customer had a bad experience with a 2015 model JD 4066M utility tractor . They bought it new in 2015 . They shelled out $ 32,000 for it . https://www.tractorhouse.com/listin...-to-99-hp/manufacturer/john-deere/model/4066m Smoked the engine last year on it . Now this was operator error all the way ! Feller was bush hogging & somehow busted a water hose & ran it to meltdown . JD dealer said cost to replace engine is $ 28,000 Hang on a second …. The whole little pizz ant tractor cost $ 32,000 to begin with . That Dog Don't Hunt ! You cant make this stuff up .
Birken...Good points. I used what a sales rep would throw at a potential customer. So far though, from my experience with the local Cat dealer, in the first 5,000 hours the warranty occurrences on dozers hasn't changed a whole lot between now and 1989. Once you get over 5,000 I haven't seen any numbers compiled that would give an indication either way. I know that since Product Link was required of the dealer network that they are now being compiled. The owners and potential buyers will never be able to see a number that can be trusted. Last I saw from Cat was that it was still cost effective to rebuild a dozer between 10,000 and 12,000 hours. I have had a D7F in a fleet years ago and not it would never go that many hours without at least an engine rebuild at around 8,000 with good maintenance. The jury is still out on the C9.3 with the furnace and chemical factory bolted to the top of the engine.
Theres a major contractor here in western australia who runs both 57Es and Gs and talking to one of their operators one day he told me the company werent too impressed with the Gs as no one wanted to operate them when on clay as they were alot rougher than the E and the other was because they are a 6 cylinder and not a large one,to get the H.P out of them the fuel is fair shot threw them and this apparently wears things out quicker and the company had already rebuilt a couple of motors with not that many hours done.
Any thoughts on this Cat D7E John C ? https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/26906499/cat-d7 If that rig checked out it would pay for itself in one oil change .
Pretty clean machine for 10K. I ran an old 9D with the cable dozer, drop the blade, pull it back up 2" and leave it alone and you got a perfect push for grading.
Looked like it had a new turbo on it . One of you HEF cat's better buy that D7E or I will . That's a nice tractor for the money !
That's a great point RZ ! The cutting is done off the sharp edge of the blade . Forgot how many times fellers would say " A cable blade aint got no down pressure " for cutting dirt . LOL ! If ya have to shove down on the blade your cutting edge is dull .
Looks like the undercarriage has sealed tracks and there is something funny going on with the chains. Sprocket teeth show some wear but not to the extent of where the idlers are. The idlers are nearly at the end of travel and the track adjuster cylinders are almost all the way out. It might have had some used chains installed. The rollers need to be looked at if possible. It's a scraper puller and someone should check the serial number and see what is in the final drives for gears. I remember something about these units having different gearing for pulling purposes. Power shift transmission could have lots of issues. The machine looks good in the photos for what it is. Machinery Trader shows average auction at about $14,500 with plenty of asking prices at about $34,400. Dealer trade in offer depending on what you were buying and if they would consider it might be $9,500 to $10,000. It is likely to be a toy so most wouldn't offer more that $5,000 to $7,500.
That's interesting about different final drive ratio options . The tractor # was 48A3773 . Wonder if the funky wear on the rear sprockets is from ripping in reverse ? It has the blade rippers .
57G PP per Cat's spec's is 118lbs lighter, has the same front-to-rear weight ratio 51%-49%! The 'fancier cab inside', yep with single joystick control that makes operating the machine less fatiguing and seat that rotates so the operator doesn't have to twist his/her back to operate the controls. 2 of the last 4 57Gs... 57G Cab
So i done some double checking and 2 different sites had 2 different weights,lengths etc so who do you believe there.I must admit i was very surprised at the so called 5 ton difference.Whats not surprising is the H.P difference.Both sites i checked had the same,front motor for the G 564-600 rear 410-451.The front for the E 550 and the rear 400.A fitter where i worked once operating a E did tell me that he could put a laptop on the machines computer and open it up to nearly 100 h.p more. As far as the controls on the Gs go as soon as they get a bit of dust around them or after some long term bouncing they play up to the point of 3 of our machines on the last job had to have complete new sticks put in them. Another classic with the Gs was the park brake wouldnt release sometimes and the first time it happened to me i was told to lift the bail up and down 3 times and i thought they were taking the p$%@ but it worked.I agree the cabs are alot better and the seat is the best thing i think that has ever happened to scrapers.As with all new machines nowdays and actually going back to the days when electric over hydraulic first came in there are going to be big problems because electricity doesnt like dust or being jarred by working in rock or bouncing around the place on a scraper. We had 5 Ģs and 5 Es on a job and the Gs used to just stop sometimes in the middle of the job parkbrake would come on and either go to idle or shutoff completely because something was coming up as a fault and after awhile the fitters would finally find out it was something else. The Es would blow a o ring or hose every now and then plus they were smoother to operate and didnt flog the haulroads out.
NET POWER : E_model gears 3-8 = 605 tractor / 451 scraper G_model gears 3-8 = 600 tractor / 451 scraper Big difference is: E_model rated @ 1900 rpm versus G_model rated @ 1800 rpm and 12 cylinders combined (both engines) versus 20 cylinders combines (both engines). The C18/C15 combo definitely burns less fuel to accomplish the same productivity-work. 657K: additional electronics (complexity) and more fault code gremlins. EXHAUST EMISSIONS AFTERTREATMENT Emissions aftertreatment = increased engine maintenance and repairs regardless of OEM brand. Link Cat's 29th edition 'Performance Handbook' / scrapers page 369 http://nheri.ucsd.edu/facilities/docs/Performance_Handbook_416C.pdf
Any news on when the 657K will be born?
NO Steel Tariffs could interrupt the supply chain of Cat's sub manufactures. Already a bottle neck before the tariffs. Before release for general sales the 57K will be given to a couple contractors during the 'pilot phase'. Those Ks are outfitted with Comm 2 box that transmitted data back to Cat engineering.
So im guessing maybe Sukut,Peeds and Indies would be in the running to trial the 57K.Do you think tariffs could make that much of a impact.Thats serious s^€$ if thats the case.Cant wait to check a K out,be interesting to see what changes from the G ,there were lots from the E to the G and although im not a big fan of the newest im still interested to see whats going on.
I am guessing 57K will follow 620_630 Ks integrated electronics (Product-Link) features. Article about Scraper development https://www.equipmentworld.com/insi...ing-grounds-to-see-how-machines-come-to-life/ Article about Cat's supply chain bottleneck and Cat's downsizing https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-keep-up-with-a-boom-in-demand-idUSKCN1IO0FW OEMs have a back log approximately 9 months for new equipment delivers, off highway and on highway. Trump Tax Cut (good for 5 year) allows 100% deprecation write offs for new and used equipment. Steel Tariffs are affecting prices and supply resources for everything; nails, screws, tin cans etc. Maybe follow southerncalearthmovers U-tube channel, Kenny (Peed's Operations Manager) will know when the 57K is going to a contractor for trails.
Thanks for the articles,very interesting.
Thought about this thread today while moving # 3 Grove crane to a couple job sites . 1973 model rig . Detroit 6 - 71 noise all the way Set some light poles at a waste water treatment plant in the morning and a grain auger at the end of the day for a farmer . Still takin care of business … Bachman Turner Overdrive 1973 . LOL
Looks like you had a De-rate on that last hill... Did you fill your DEF tank before the trip?
That's the auto shift function on the hill . Pretty complex system . Uses a " Grey Matter " computer chip . I just set in the seat & let the machine do it's thing . Is that DEF some kind of fancy beer ? https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/43244/298227/
Having the same ECM controlling the engine and trans is a good idea.
How true is that "uses grey matter for the computer ".All this crap of having computers controling everything,let the greatest computer of all control the machine the operators brain if they are good operators and know machines is all that is needed.I remember when electric over hydraulic first came to Australia i was working for a great company called Roche Bros the family stilled owened them and they had the biggest fleet of Cat 245s in the southern hemisphere and we had the oldest one and the newest one and being the new bloke i got the oldest and i cant remember how many hours it had done but it had done alot of hardrock work and it actually didnt go too bad a bit slow but it could still break out rock and you could feel what was goin on.One day the bloke on the new one asked me if i wanted a drive and naturally i did,well i went to pull the dipper in and fill the bucket and because of the lack of feeling in the sticks the dipper stop dead because it was hard going and the digger shot foward until about half of my tracks were hanging over the face so after recovering from that i gently pushed myself back onto the bench and tried filling the bucket which the old girl done alot easier than the new one. After talking to the Cat fitter who was there for the first few days with the new 245,he basically said the new electric ******** was to save abit of fuel. I was checking out stats for the 637K trying to get some idea what the 57K may be like and its got settings for loading and dumping so basically all the operators have to do is steer and how much can go wrong with that much **** on them is unbelievable. Its getting out of control very fast with all this fancy "do the operators work for them" ******** and if you want to put a full day in and not breakdown put up with being a little uncomfortable maybe then your always going to grab an old B or D or E . ,
I forgot to say about the new operators coming through.They will know how to operate the new stuff no doubt,but what happens if like Sukut,Indys and a few others who still run alot of the older stuff they break down and are asked to jump on another machine and it happens to be one you have to load yourself and unload yourself. The only way around this is the companies are goin to have to teach people how to operate both and no doubt the good smart ones will but there will no doubt be others that wont. I can fully understand having load settings for doing cuts that are getting close to finish that may be handy but then again we used to have the dozer and grader ops sought that out.The main thing of course is its stopping operators from learning the skills of knowing how to cut properly and dump a layer at the required height.Of course if this stuff can all be turned off and only used if you want then thats great but i couldnt find anything saying that and its probably a case of thats how the machine comes so you have to put up with it.I know it may sound like im just sooking about progress but scrapers are my fav machine and i really think besides a few good things as far as operator comfort goes,they can keep the rest im still trying to get over no more V12s or V8s but i accept that it was a pollution law for the states and naturally Cat aint going to build one for home and another for the rest of the world.
Good points Mate ! What's up with the new vehicles on the road ? There used to be a time where ya could spot a Mopar , Chevy or Ford from a distance . They all look the same to me now up close . " probably an aging thing " I'm gonna ride it out old school with ignition points & carburetor's .
Once upon a time you liked the look of your car it was different from others and had character.If your car breaks down now a "Technician"with a laptop comes along,if you tried to find out yourself you would be there allday and still not find it.I know that the new stuff can be very good when its all running right,but if it goes pear shaped....
Just been watching some serious scraper action on Socal earthmovers and beside the fact that Sukut Indys Peed Coburn and a few others own more 57s in just their own companies than id say what there is in just about all of Australia,Piacentini is the biggest scraper fleet down here and theyve probably got 40 or so now,they had alot more but got rid of alot of their old Bs which is what gets me about the above mentioned USA companies they still have alot of 57bs and 51bs earning them money and keeping blokes in jobs.I know theyve all got new motors because of the pollution laws but if that doesnt show you how good the old stuff still is to still be going around after how many years.I ve read comments about comfort and seriously the older ones ride smoother i reckon and theres the open cab bit and ive always been surprised about how many open cab scrapers and dozers there are over there.I was very surprised years ago when i saw my first vid from over there,open cab 9ns and rs pushing scoops.I know its California but it must get on the cool side sometimes and the dust would s^$€ you to ne man who has a really good fleet of 57Bs and 51Bs is John Mitzel (hope thats spelt right)he has some beauties and can anyone tell me what happened to his uncle or grandfather Ralph he had a big fleet of 51bs 57bs and 660s amongst everything else.Was he one of the guys who couldnt afford to change to the new motors and just sold out or shut down.An absolute shame if that was the case.
Saw this baby going down the road on my way home the other day. sorry about the reflections, was shooting through the windscreen.
Operator can shut off the auto features and most grade control features are optional when spec-ing the machine @ purchase. Cat Grade Control Coburn has, 44 57Es for rentals. Mitzel, John does not want to scratch the paint off his 51Bs and wanted circa 2014 $5.00 per hour less than the going rate for 57E, Gs plus better tire wear deal! 660s restored; D346, D343 powered means they can't be used in Calif and soon most US states. ACI (Altfillisch est: 1946) was an early engine updater using DDA 60series engine with Jake brake to repowered 22 660s. ACi has moved over 500,000,000 cubic yards in 25 years. Independent-TGI purchased a few 657Gs recently. Sukut 51Bs? Will require up Tiered engines to continue Calif usage (ditto all outfits with Tier 3 engines). Each machine repowered with gov grant funds is a separate contract with the state of Calif and must be used in the state for 7 years @ 2,000hrs per year or be fined. Sukut, Peed, are bidding jobs in other US states. Sure 51-57Bs with electronic engines, open ROPS are simple, easy to keep in the dirt. Customer got largest job (35million plus) close to my home base. 51Bs with DDA engines, single push with D10s and bunch of TS24B Terex push-pulls. Operators and open ROPS,if they want to work fine, in not F-them! As my dad would tell them, 'if you ass dose not fit the seat, someone else's will'! Winters not a big deal, summer @ 40C that is not fun!
Thanks for that Stan.I seen the clip of the 660s coming of the hill with the detriots and jakes they sounded excellent.So Suket has some money to spend if they want to keep their 51Bs goin.Theyve got one or two of them as well.I didnt realise just how hard it is for Contractors over there its not as easy as just getting rid of the old motors they are only allowed to put certain motors back in and its huge $$$$.Any idea what happened to old Ralph Mitzel Stan,didnt want to play the game maybe?22 660s is awesome for moving big dirt over a distance and ACIs are the only ones with them now.Your Dad was right somebody out there that doesnt mind and wants a job.Seen that article on the 37K that you can turn all that technical stuff off and thats a great thing.The Articles i read didnt mention that.One thing id like you to explain if its not to much trouble is these tier motors never heard of them down here they arent the acert motors are they.
I had not heard of any other state doing this same nonsense, which states are coming next?
Some areas of Texas require Tier1 or newer. Dallas-Houston area they just shut off using the equipment until working out a program, circa 2010?. I don't remember the exact date; had to research emission regulations before shipping equipment to mid Texas in 2013. Fed, State contracts in Oklahoma Tiered engines. Other states have repower programs via grants similar to Calif. Calif has 35 air quality management districts, you could end up with job in two different districts. Ralph's 660s sat @ my buddies storage area for 4 years. Then went to this job in Nevada. Fast forward to 4:30. 660s @ just under 45mph. I assume Ralph's fun bag is full and basically he's retired, his equipment yard is full of equipment about 10km from my place. ACI yard is in the opposite direction about 6km, they've sold the property for housing development. Scraped equipment for 10 years.
What is wrong with the people of Texas that they allow the importation of these nonsensical regulations. I was going to use Texas as an example of a place that would never happen. And Oklahoma, isn't that already a poor state? Why would they choose to slow their economy even more? They need to work on repealing these dumb standards. Not making them even more entrenched and widespread.
You live in a great area Stan i would be real pleased if it was me just to be able to see them in the yard i guess uz blokes over there just get used of it especially the big 6 wheelers.
What other states? All 50 per EPA and receiving federal highway funds. Texas is similar to Calif. https://www.tceq.texas.gov/assets/public/.../FY18_NonRoad_Stationary_TechSupp.pdf
Are these 660s going to be allowed to be sold, or are they going to be cut up because the CA taxpayers will be paying them huge dividends to destroy them. A friend had to pay her employer $7,000.00 over value to save a one of a kind JD high crop tractor from the scrap heap, This was due to tax incentives from the state that the rest of the taxpayers needs to make up.
The 660s (or B model scrapers) don't have to be sold or cut up. Keeping the fleet average requirement 1) by adding Tier 4 equipment (example new dozers) 2) repowering with Tier 4 intermin/final engines. Example: Sukut's nephew is using Tier 3 repowered 51Bs and new D10Ts to meet a fleet average of Tier4 intermin. ACI cut up Euclid-Terex 6 wheel scrapers and older non tier Cat equip etc to gain fleet credits. Calif-ARB has backed off (flexible) the 2000 hour per year usage requirement on repowered equipment working with owners they have partnered with. Calif dirt work is cut-throat competitive; contractors are 'buying' jobs by under bidding the job engineers' estimates. Example Sukut underbid the next phase of the Bowerman landfill job (Irvine, Calif county job) by 50% ($7million).
Honestly, I would love to try out one of those 660's for a day or two, just to see if I still have it. Biggest I've been on was a 657B and at those speeds they beat you up.
You mean to say that Fed DOT is somehow requiring Montana to scrap D8Ks for highway funds? Or is Texas doing this of their own volition? I mean, it is not going to hurt air pollution if some old hillbilly is still running old gear, everything gets phased out by attrition eventually but these clowns seem overly concerned if there is even 1 old machine left running in the state.
Agree Birken . I like that attrition idea . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare We have a lot of attrition
NO: Montana does not have to give up a D8K to receive US DOT Federal Highway Administration funding. You can use Tier 0 machines in Montana. Montana does not have have any ozone nonattainment or maintenance areas. All states receive a share of US Dot funding based upon population density. YES: Texas decided to implement their own Air Quality Regulations. Any state can implement stricter AQR’s; sixteen states and DC have using California’s CARB regulations, e.g. known as CARB states. CARB allows 'old hillbilly machines' to be used 200 hours annually including Tier 0. AG usage machines including dozers-scrapers, do not require off road registration numbers or have hours usage limits including Tier 0 equipment.
Well it makes me very happy to know that the great white father in Washington DC has given Montana permission to keep their old machines until they wear out.
Had a pretty funny encounter today with a customer . Ran in to him at the gas station . Guy was kind of uptight as I reached over to shake his hand . " Man I've been trying to get ahold of you for the past two days TD ! " I'm like … Cool Man ! I aint hard to find , how was ya trying to reach me ? " I sent you 5 text messages ! " Ohhh , well no wonder . Just call the cell phone and if I don't answer leave a voice message at the tone bro & I will get back to ya . If your waiting for a text message back it could be 25 to 30 years .
That's sure gonna make me & the kinfolk happy !
I actually like text... to be able to send pics to clueless parts people, or a list of part numbers.
That would be handy at times to send a picture of the part . I aint evolved that far yet . Plant two or three " flip phones " on job sites each year . No smart phone for td . Hang on … where's my phone ? LOL !
I have killed so many phones that now they stay in the cab of whatever I drove to the job. Tied down a 330 case excavator, phone ended up under the lowboy tire... crunch, Drowned one in a pond doing some pipe repair, Then there is bouncing them off the passenger door panel in the pickup. Or tossing one at an idiot... Yes did that once.
It's pretty depressing when your phone breaks your windshield and it's a 20 mile drive back to the shop nothing like a temper on top of a temper
I dropped a pager down a wall in a hospital remodel in Fremont, CA in about 1997. A year or so ago an old workmate friend texted me and said he found my pager when he tore that suite down for remodel. Said he needed my address so he could send it back to me. He also mentioned that the batteries were dead.
Talking to a bloke who is high up the ladder with Cat in Sydney Stan and he reckons the 57K and get this the 51K are in the proving grounds now and are well on their way along the chain of events they must follow.I was pleasantly surprised to hear a 51K,the big boys like Peeds Sukuts Indies etc must have told Cat there would be a market for them as i believe the original line for discontinuing them was they wouldnt sell.The plot thickens,i guess when we see them then we will know for sure.
My guess April 2019 for 657K Brief bio from 1 lead engineer: January 2015 – December 2016 2 years Managed project timelines, budgets, and resource allocation for New Product Introduction programs and maintained continuous improvement on 3-Wheel Tractor Scraper platforms. Lead 630K and 657K Tier IV emissions updates. - Key contributor in the redesign of the 630K platform, which removed drum brakes and replaced with wet disc front and dry caliper rear, resulting in improved slope holding and braking performance, elimination of the maintenance costs associated with drum brake adjustments every 250 hours, and cost savings of $1K per machine. - Drove research and development efforts serving as Tech Lead and managed team resources, created design concepts, and sourced supplier quotes for 657K program. R.E. Monks run 631Ks; they've had rear axle housing failure on 1 machine, cracked about 4 inches (100mm) inside of the wheel. C18 Tier4 with engine compression brake (Jake brake) to help prevent engine over speeds by automatically applying brakes and engine brakes via electronics. That is a PLUS, scraper engine over speeds have been historically the number engine failure cause, broken crankshafts and drop valves. 4 fatalities in 18 months; safety nazis are really enforcing brakes on scrapers. 631K proving ground to contractor testing
The jake brake is definetly a top idea considering how much they are used in steep country.What do you think of the suggestion of a 51k.I hopefully am starting work with Piacentini and son,doing lifts on tailings dam walls,dont know if youve seen the post on here about the 6 or so 651s that they put elevators in making them 653s basically.They have the biggest scraper fleet in Australia and are very good at making machines to suit jobs.Hopefully there will be some on the job im talking about and i can have a drive.Should be interesting although i seriously think they should have used 57s instead the old 51s and 31s have a hard time dragging themselves up hills empty never mind loaded.
31s, 51s...actually 37s, 57s without rear engines are called tail draggers, extra weight hanging on the *** end. 31D,Es under powered; had to widen the haul roads so 51Es were not slowed down returning to the cut. 633s loaded can't make money on up grades. Skip to 4:50, ***** steep. Prime contractors' vice pres couldn't understand why 'can't they use brakes and retarders to slow down'; X-mas day 2013 conversation when 57s were burning off router bits in 2 hours. Primary contractor Wood Bros bid the job knowing they're 31Ds wouldn't work. Used 31s for 5 days and called Indy's 57Es; Indy's crew blew up engines and transmissions like they were free! Interesting show.
Dragging the bowls must have really pleased the GET salesman to no end. Probably made a years worth of payments on the condo in Hawaii just on this job.
I have worked on pan spreads here. 31's and 37's were the biggest they had. Unfortunately all the big dirt work is gone here these days. But the thing I noticed the most over the years is finding operators that had any clue how to make the machines efficient in the past few years. All the scrapers are gone now and they have reverted to 740's and a hoe to load them. But with the right crew you could see a road built in a matter of days. That help is long gone!
Yes seen this one it was taking 31s nearly an hour to do a lap coz like u said hopeless goin back up the mountain empty and the 57s apparently were coming down in top gear dragging bowls to slow them down and top gear so they didnt over rev.I think they eventually used diggers and belly dumpers if this is the same one.Fancy useing 31s they are the most gutless thing around.All right on short flat hauls.
Sorry wrong vid clip.The one i was thinking off was Peeds 57s i think and it wasnt as filthy steep as your clip Stan it was a long way though and getting up there,there were a couple of switchbacks it was unbelievable and the 31s were at walking pace and taking nearly an hour to go round.Makes you wonder whos idea it was to use them.The poor operators wouldve had to get their seats jimmy barred out of their rears.Unfair to put operators in that situation.It wouldve been highway to hell coming down in a 31.
You're not mistaken . Same landfill job @ Bowerman a.k.a Bee Canyon in Irvine, Calif. Wood Bros Inc. out of Lemoore, Calif (farming country central Calif) low bid the job by underbidding the engineer's estimate. WB knew 31s wouldn't do the job @ the get go; they just didn't have any experience to guesstimate the time required per round. WB hires my buddy (master mech-independent sub) to call the shots for anything related to mechanical/mechanics on their S.Cal jobs. My buddy asked if I'd work the job strait time 12hr minimum /7s and $4,800 travel pay per month, plus $10 per hour for welding consumables for 18 months. WB's plans changed weekly; work days 6am to when ever, start @ 12pm to 6am, 6pm to 6am. WB has two mechanics on their payroll; they got 8hrs per day and no Sat, Sunday, e.g. no overtime pay. WB's mechanics were only on that job for a few months, then went back north to another job. My buddy worked full time for a competitor, but still calling the shots. Another buddy and myself could flex-in and still work for other clients while the excavators and semi-bottom dumpers were working. Excavators and semi-bottom dumpers 'kicked scrapers' ***'. The round to other side of the landfill is 5 miles. $85 per hour for the semi-bottom dumpers and they paid for their fuel, tires etc. The only problem Orange county didn't want road trucks doing the job! And truck drivers with CB radios, well 1 driver got stuck in the fill, got out of his rig trying to move a rock...16G operator was told it's okay to push, ops! Flattened truck driver, LOL Back to 31s taking over 1 hour per round. WB got another bid award. The operators were instructed to use 8th gear on the down ramp. They over speed and blow up engines; even blew a 140H engine coming down the ramp. Independent was the prime contractor @ Bee Canyon a couple of times and sub-ed in on different phases. Their 57s had been sitting 4-5 years; still hadn't recuperated from the 2008 recession. Cat dealer has a equipment yard onsite, 3-4 service trucks always there...landfills are super big money makers! Work @ landfills; you can really understand our' 'throw away societies'. 651Ks, I don't think that is going to happen. 51Bs won't die; locals make replacement hoods, steel hydraulic lines, wiring looms etc. 51Bs repowered with Tier 3 C18 Acert or other engines can be used forever! The guys wrenching on 51Bs since 1968 or 51Es since 1983; like putting on your boots, no big surprises.
What the heck is the guy upset about in the front D10 pushing? Hes talking and waving all the time!
#1 push dozer operator 'directs the cut'. He's trying get the scraper operators to feather the can sooner, e.g. lift the can out of the cut to decrease cycle time. Effect load is taking 18 seconds from C-dozer tag up and an additional 10 to 14 seconds until the scraper can is raised to leave the cut. 660s are a bit slower to raise the can up out of the cut compared to 651s. C-dozer operator's 'waving'? He's motioning lift by raising both of his arms and end cut by crossing his arms. Scraper operator being pushed cannot see his' show from the operator's seat position.
Do they ever run Deere tractors with pull pans or the newer ADT modified scrapers down there on those big jobs? I'm just asking because I don't see much scraper action around here. Mostly excavators direct filling dump trucks. The last scraper action I saw was a Deere pulling a pan to excavate the lagoon at my grandpa's farm.
In the southwest pull pans and scrapers are not a thing that's very common you see them down in areas were the ground is lighter and there is not any rock bigger than 3 inch minus Around here half the jobs will be on or around a hill and there can be a lot of big rocks
Least he,s letting them know to pull out. When i was learning on a 31 the old boy on the 10 wouldnt tell us anything he would just throw it into reverse and leave you there.We were in soft ground too so sometimes you would be stuck and have to wait for him to push all the others and then he would whinge about having to come back to you.Many a bad word spoken and not nice when your learning.Now im one of those old boys and i tell anyone that asks or is learning as much as i can coz i know what its like.
I see. I'm used to worked around guys that know when to bail out and quit running dirt over the side of the bowl. Most of them know where to cut next but still a few that jump out of line and you have to chase them. Never pushed with two tractors before....looks fun!!
Calif has lots of dirt work where ADTs can be used.
At about 1:10 that push Cat sure picks the scraper up nice. Good operators slide right in with no bump at all. I miss the black smoke of old though. How do you tell if they are both working?
I haven't posted here in some time, been very busy, computer died, etc. After years of running mainly 627B and 621B model scrapers, this winter after layoff I was sidelined with hip joint surgery. Running stuff with questionable maintenance and poorly working seats got me to decide I wanted to try and find something better. I'm happy to report I am now Employed by McArdle Grading out of Elkhorn, Nebraska. Now I get to play on 627F and 637G scrapers. Requires a bit of adjustment but having working AC/heat, properly functioning seats, low effort controls, a much quieter cab, wipers and so forth sure make it a lot easier on an old fart like me! I just don't take getting beaten and barbequed like I used to and the hip likes it a whole lot better. I hope I never have to go back. Glad to be back on the forum, will try to visit more frequently like I used to and post some pics once I get a properly working cell phone again. Got a big hole to dig myself out of, so I hope mom nature knocks it off with the rain for awhile. Take care everybody! Alan627, no more B!
It's about time you re-joined us and looking forward to some action photos.
Looks like that scraper has a roller block on the tail too during that same clip you mentioned. Smooth!
Old mate of mine used to push us,been doing it for years,he used to come in on the exact right angle in 2 gear full noise and know exactly when to slew on to us and away we would go with just a gentle little bump.He was a master at it and seen other guys try and do it and there would be corner tips threw tyres and upset buggie ops from being knocked around.One thing ive never seen in Australia and dont know why is the blades yous guys use to push scrapers. You would have a hard time putting one of them through a tyre and if you did id say you wouldnt be pushing anymore.
Dont think theres many of them down here,not in western australia anyway.Wouldnt mind ago on one i gather they are good for long hauls but i read somewhere your roads cut and fill have to be smooth as because theyre rough as otherwise,and im talking worse than scrapers.
Yep, Gavin84W has been to the US a few times for Con-AG in Vegas, and in this area visiting Mitzel's yards. Gav has tied to convince Aussie contractors to use C-dozers in his former position @ WesTac scrapers sales NSW? I mailed Gav D9L, D10s manufacturing shop prints for cushion dozer and push cushion obtained from Cat-Balderson Work Tools, Wamego Kansas about 5 years ago. Drew up CAD files didn't need the paper shop prints. Sukut Equipment Rental (rental and construction are separate org's) has a bunch of C-dozers forsale; they scrape equipment to sale parts. Takes 1-1.5hrs to switch over from full dozer to C-dozer. C-dozer is bit more productive and LOTS easier to use! 1 tire @ $18-22thou would pay over half the cost for a new C-dozer. Be safe, take care squid.
Good info thanks Stan.Dont know why they dont use them doesnt make sense.If Gav couldnt convince people to try them then never happen.
We use to hang a truck tire on the back of the pan. It helps s little. Poor man's pushin cushion.
Sorry, but I'm for air-conditioned cabs. It gets hot out here in the summer!
Heater for cold winters? Calif Mexican air-conditioning; layered clothing
Great to watch a pack of 51s and D10s moving dirt fast and always makes me laugh how the 51 operators are wearing hard hats on their machines,would make people watching think scrapers are "really" rough.
51-57Bs with those swinging steeps; you need 'shin-bone' protectors! B models require more climbing around to check fluid levels compared to E,Gs. I like the relocated fuel filter and primer; don't have to climb across the nose to crank the engine after R&I.
Damn rain. These 22 hour work weeks are killers. LOL! Maybe cat will lend us one of those new submersible scrapers..... Rain for the next 2-3 days, 2-6" expected. oh joy. Later, folks!
I'm just across the river from you so I feel your pain!!! Most of my work comes from local area farmers so I have to wait for the crops to come out first. So another 2"-6" of rain is not going to help matters any!!! LOL
A couple of old paddlers.We have 4 and another 4 coming plus a couple of 39s.
Ha, all the safety bars on those Dmodels; look like rolling jails. 39s work okay in sandy soils. Not any 39s in Calif or probably the US, most are down under.
Yes lots of 39s down here Stan,most over here in the west.The rails on machines are common practice now,few people have gone over the side while doing prestarts so if it saves lives and stops injuries its a good thing.Hardly notice it anymore when ur operating its part of it.
Safety nazis get carried away, IMO On D,E,Gs prestarts; checking engine oil level and coolant level! Trans-diff levels via sight glass are checked from the ground. NO reason to be on top of the hood or right side hydraulic tank-fender. Easier servicing was a big upgrade compared to C models that requires climbing around the hitch to check trans-diff levels. With the safety rails servicing air cleaner and fuel filters restricts the mechanics access! Typically standing on a stool working from ground level. I angle the service truck so the bumper-workbench allows stepping back and forth onto the scraper tractor; try to never step off while doing engine (or relate component) work. One modification we do in this area; replace the right rear motor mount with a aluminum bushing-pad. OEM rubber mounts don't hold up. Saves labor to strip off the exhaust box-muffler to gain access to R&I.
This company im working for have the biggest scraper fleet in the country,about 80 or so 57s 37s 39s 33s 51s etc but there all working so theres no spares and we needed another at least 4 33s so the boss has gone down the back to the graveyard a couple of months ago and picked out the 4 best looking condition wise 33s and their in the shop striped to the chassis being completely rebuilt so i cant wait to see what their like.Knowing this company they will probably be like new.They dont muck around with their gear its usually top notch and you can bet they will have some new 3408s to go in them too.
squid, Calif 633s have almost vanished; reason good scraper dirt jobs are seldom, elevating scrapers don't like rocks. I bought 633C 66M699 @ RB auction in 2002 for $18thou for a 4 week job. The job didn't happen until 2008 due to building permit delays; county gov wanted $4.3million, then environmental impact study, K-rat fees, school fees etc. Finally agreed to $1.2; 33 has been sitting since August 08. Under $10thou to get the 33 back to performance spec's; total hydraulic system rebuild, cylinders, pumps, motor, valves, tank etc. D343 engine; swapped 57B injection pump (up hp), new transfer pump, water pump, rod out radiator etc. Video of original 633; even a front window was an option. D343, 9-speed torque converter trans. With 9 speed going downhill the trans auto shifts into higher gears, opposite from a 8 speed. Video shows WHY emission engines are req'd; easy to see haze-smog in the background. **** poor conditions to operate scrapers; no haul road maintenance.
These 33 rebuilds that are going on down here could be alot more than yours or anyone elses in the states Stan, your new parts should be alot cheaper as there in the same country and the availability should be high,no shipping fees to pay etc.If you go second hand the cost will be alot cheaper you would hope.Knowing Piacentini,s they will probably get as much new stuff as they can and these scrapers will go well hopefully and last for a lot more years.I remember seeing a near new 33c in the 70s at a mine in the southwest and it came with no cab or rops and it gets cold down there so the bloke operating it was about twice his normal size due to all the extra clothing he had to wear.They eventually put a rops on it which considering the height of some of the walls it ran on was a good idea.I dont know what the motor was probably same as you mentioned Stan but i remember it was quick.
If Placentini is close to Perth, Hofmann sell lots of parts; like hitch pins and bearings. They also rebuild pins and probably have exchanges. Cat was sourcing pins (mid 90s early 2000s) from Capstone, so freight charges from Australia were in the prices. D-Model parts that are interchangeable with E or Gs won't have a obsolescent price premium; Cat does mark up prices for out-of-production goodies. Our local Cat dealers have to pay inventory tax; so a D-mod trans cover gasket is no longer in stock and has to come out of the warehouse. That means tomorrow morning, LOL. I needed new radiator frames for a D8L (2010), one came from Australia and the other from Belgium two day air freight. D-Model Hitches are beefed up compared to Cs; longer service hours to repairs. C-Model inline 6 engine is easier to work on. You can in-frame overhaul if the main bearing caps' interference fit into the block saddle is still alright. C-model hydraulic pumps are harder to work on, driven off the rear of the engine: 1 @ rear left side and 2 bell housing mounted underneath. D-model pumps are simple trans driven. Cool Placentini takes pride in their equipment. Post up a few photos of the 33 rebuilds. What happened to ABI group? They used have a large scraper fleet in Australia.
Will post photos of the rebuilds Stan.Abi group was taken over by Lendlease who are more into building office blocks bridges and that sort of construction more so than earthmoving.They seem to have kept the earthmoving side of it going along alright though over on the eastcoast dont hear of them over this side since they finished a fair sized road job up north a couple of years ago. There is some very large road jobs goin on over east and Lendlease who im fairly sure still have a good sized fleet of 51s and 57s are right in amongst these big road jobs. From what ive been able to check out over the last few years from websites etc Piacentini still have the most even though they sold alot of 57bs they have alot of 57 Es and Gs to replace them. From what ive read and heard Lendlease unless theyve bought up large just recently for these road jobs are still the same or maybe abit less in fleetsize (30 to maybe 40)compared to Piacentini 60 plus maybe even around the 80 mark. Fairly sure some of Lendleases mineral sands mining jobs have finished and the scraper fleet was parked up for awhile until work came up.Heard some may have been sold and not replaced but cant be certain as east coast is along way from here and rumours rule.
Number 639 is a 639.
Stan ive heard conflicting stories on how many 639s were built.Ive heard around 50 up to 500.I reckon if anyone could find out theres a good chance you could. In Western Australia anyone who has them usually only has one or two except for the Thomas family who have 5 between Dad,who once owened them all before selling one to one son and 3 to the other son and keeping one himself.He has had 9 tru blu 39s over the years plus turned a couple of 33s or 37s into 39s.The word is Piacentinis have 11 39s one is parts and the other 10 are moving sand.Im not so sure about this yet but given they are the experts at moving mineral sands it is possibly true.Be interested to see what you can find out.
squid, No google search? Production 1979 to 1984, total manufactured under 300. Reference source: https://contractormag.co.nz/classic-machines/caterpillar-639d/ Roading 637Cs Jpaydirt IMO, good video. Using 2nd gear loading (torque convertor) with hitch locked down (if you don't you can't put down pressure on the cutting edges), diff-lock and shift-hold pedals. Look like NO seat-belt, big fine in Calif...Flat land Big Sky Country
Like the old 37s Stan good clip.So i seen that Newzealand contractors mag article according to a few people over here who have had a bit to do with them some are saying around 50 or so admitting they dont know for sure but none reckon 300 were made.I googled and just got rubbish.See if there is some info segment you can get into on a Cat site that might be able to tell me something.
According to my serial number book it shows to prefixes 88X and 99X both starting at Sn. 674 and ending at 711. First year is 1980 and last year is 1985. That would indicate a total of 74 but Cat skips serial numbers all the time so the actual total is most likely less. My book also states the serial numbers with 75 following the three digit prefix is a Cat certified rebuild. For example a serial of 88X75000 would be a rebuild.
88X is a scraper prefix and 99X is a wheel tractor prefix so a 639D would be have both a 88X and 99X serial number. So your numbers show 37 units Bob
Counting 639s on HEF HeavyEquipmentForums E.L. Yeager had 8 maybe 10 639s, sold and shipped to Australia early 90s (93-95?). Those 639s worked at local open pit sand mining operation Cisco, Corona Calif for few months. Yeager's 639s were the only ones I've seen in action. Replaced by Willy Rasmussen's (Pacific Tractor) 657E augers and 631Cs-D9s One 639 (was in) Canada, operated by Kidco or Prairie Road Builders
Im in touch with Gavin 84W who works for Cat in Sydney.He looked up the prefix list and came up with 39 639s built and at least 20 or so are in western australia and Piacentinis have 11 of them.
Contacted NZ mag with the correct numbers manufactured @ 39
As a mechanic working on the equipment, In my opinion, the older stuff is tougher and on the whole, more reliable. Shiny paint and a fancy cab is nice but it doesn’t move dirt... it’s a shame that “image” counts for so much in some places. I sure prefer older iron.
O Agree,who ever designed the cabs on the K model scraper for instance and im talking about the outside ,needs to be sent packing.It is the ugliest,wierdest looking thing and then theres the plastic look of the whole thing.Far too much electrics so that basically the operator just sits and steers the thing.Had a 37G just shut itself down on a haulroad that had 8 37s going fullnoise on and had to stop the job while the poor fitters tried to find out why.In the end about an hour later after the laptop said nothing was wrong they found a dodgy censor for something that was they think through vibration the culprit.As far as ive found out through operating both the old and newer gear,the newer gear is absolute garbage, rough as guts because they bounce around too much and mung the haulroads up real quick.The inside of the cab is wasted because you cant enjoy the comforts because of the bouncing all over the place.The best scraper ive been on for power,smoothness and reliability is a 57E and i know a G isnt even close,might be smicker inside the cab and thats it.The 57K is going to be even more out there the way Cat are going now days.The operators have to put up with this crap all day and then theres the poor old fitters etc who have to work on them.Cat just seem to be interested in making machines look flash and be overloaded with technology that if you can operate the old way you dont need most of whats there.Seems theyve lost the old values that Cat had of you were getting the best there is.
Early adopters 637Ks Crack problem on R.E. Monks 637Ks
Whats goin on there Stan,those 37ks look alot different and alot better to look at than 27ks.
Ops, my &^* 637Gs and 637K sorry, trying to eat and post at the same time. Monks 637 with cracking rear axle housing 'heads up' posted in Independent Mechanic Group. 637K-627Ks share the same Cab and maybe 657K will also, we'll see next year. Same cab, same simulator for training the 'new' generation of computer geek-ie basement dwellers; no strength to operate manual control levers Aussie 637Ks Ezyquip Au / http://ezyquip.com.au/Careers.aspx Pu$$y boys, razed by feminist mommies, 'the machines ride so rough', we're in those cabs ALL DAY...Safety bars, safety bars, safety bars...next up from CAT, pink finished interiors.
Ha ha well said mate,no strength in arms only enough to operate keyboards on laptops etc and maybe get the scraper door open and it will probably be light enough with all the plastic in it.Dont worry about the pink interiors,by the looks of the K cab and other things Cats designers are looking like they may be trying to take the hard tough look of earthmoving gear away and probably will start offering a new colour every year because yellow has become so drab and boring and is not the in colour anymore.I cant believe they have used plastic on the scrapers.Alright in the cab but mudguards and fueltanks and by the looks of the K the front of the machine. Only time will tell i suppose.
squid, Old Iron for U Shortage of large scrapers in S.Cal; 2 Coburn 651Bs with bail hooks. D9L with worn ripper shank pockets. T-shirt operators
Thanks for that Stan.Ive been on 631s and all between up to 657Es im on a 39D at the moment and i know ive done well but really wish there had been alot more 660s and 666s in Australia.From what ive read Thiess contractors bought 6 660s in for coal mines in Queensland back in the late 70s and some bloke bought a couple of them and their still going but other than that we missed out big time.Havent heard of any Euclid or international or any other 6 wheelers over here so you blokes are very lucky.At least i can still watch Socal earthmovers.
Here,s some big buggies that just about all would not have seen before.Piacentini,s believe if Cat havent made it well they,ll make it themselves.These two big paddlers were made to shift mineral sands here in West Oz.The first is what they called a Wabcat.A 57B front with a large Wabco backend minus the motor.They have big 6cyl cummins motors and the truth is they have some still working with over 70,000hrs on them.The man standing along side this one is the man who started it all back in the late 40,s Albert Piacentini,who sadly passed on a few years ago.The other creation is a 651 with the own made elevator in it.They have about 4 of these ive been told.They are the masters of everything scrapers over here and still have a huge fleet of big buggies .
squid, Go check those 653 Wabcats out and make a movie. Cummins K19 600Hp w/Jake Brake was installed in one S. Cal 666 tractor. Brain Yeager has a 630 2-axle converted to pull a taper powered with a K19 @ 500Hp; Cummins made the flywheel adapter gear (standard part number) to mate up to Cat's 9 speed torque converter transmission. K19 morphed into QSK19 Tier3 final is being installed in 140Ton Aussie Road-Trains @ 750Hp. I am a K-series fan boy https://www.cummins.com/engines/qsk19-tier-3 Thanks for posting the photos, very unique self loading scrapers.
Thanks Stan,glad you like them. Apparently Piacentini,s used to put cummins motors with allison transmissions (i,m sure thats the tranny i was told)in all their 57B,s and they had alot of them in fact i seen a ad for 14 of them that were being sold a few years ago and they were listed with the cummins motors.Obvisously they are,nt big fans of at least that particular cat v8.Ive always been a cummins fan myself,always thought they had alot more grunt than cat motors.I drove a Euclid dumper for awhile many years ago and that had a V12 cummins in it.We were in very steep country and all the other dumpers would down in first gear going up hill loaded,the 2 euc,s could pass them,most times in 2nd or 3rd.
squid, I 99.9% sure they didn't use Allison trans in the 57Bs; Cat's 8 speed is not a problem child and the Cat pump drive-to-engine bellhousing is easy to adapt different brands of engines... D346 V8 60deg does not like overreving; causes crankshafts to crack or break and valves to hit the pistons. The guys in this area refer to D346s as 'hand grenade engines', but we've made lots of money rebuilding. Enjoy your day / cheers
Roger that Stan,thought i heard somewhere thats what Piacentini,s done.We just got one that they brought out of retirement from the graveyard.Running short on 33s so they picked the best looking old ones that had been down the back and completly stripped them to chassis and started again.Done a bloody great job on the first one anyway its like a new one would be.(just about).One thing about this company they know about scrapers and an intereresting thing i was told also is they were asked a few years ago to come over to the states and show the contractor the best way to mine mineral sands with scrapers and also how to set up a dozer push.For many years over here thats all Piacentini,s done was mineral sands.Since the man who started it all,Albert is sadly no longer with us,the last ten years or so his son Colin and his two sons have doubled their work including hard rock opencut mining and civil jobs like building mine haulroads and dams etc.They have over 800 people working for them now and are getting more and more work,this is why there,s a shortage of 33,s.It is a true story that they have 11 39,s one,s been wrecked for some reason but the other 10 are goin flat out,we have 2 on our job.They also like to put double augers in 657E,s for moving sand.Will post some more photo,s when i can.
squid, There was lot mineral sands mined in this area. Owens-Illinois in Corona for 40yrs, two uncles worked there, one spent his entire working career @ that plant as assistant superintendent. Owens leased from Pete Wiesel, Wiesel mined with blasting and 'steam shovel', labors with pick-shovel and Cat RD6; also invented magnetic separator (I think). Later mining was with D9G and Cat90 pull scraper and 633C running two shifts per day. Interstate 15 cut off the rear of the pit, so operations were stopped. Pete Jr's kids sold the property for Industrial-Housing development. Abandoned plant was our almost free source for material, all machinery, bagging, hoppers, dyers etc and water for 25yrs. Owens material was a waste product used to prevent shrinkage while firing clay sewer pipe, bricks and roof tiles. Ditto 3M's waste from down the canyon; paid to haul off and resale for very fine base material. McKnight experimented with Euclid-Terex augers scrapers for years. S.Cal former website had a bunch of photos. Unfortunately Kenny didn't archive the thousands of posts and information. Dave Peed offer to pay for Ken's videos, so Ken's freebies morphed and he hooked up with Awesome Earthmovers. Peed hired Ken for operations manager. Little scraper action. Indy trying to set a record for blowing up engines and transmission on the down ramp. Ramp was over 2Km so engine overspeeds was wiping out engines and trans; per memory 32 engines and 26-ish trans in the 1st 3 weeks. 3408-3412s break easier versus C18-C15 combo repowered. Most of Indy's 57Es brought on-site had been sitting for 4-5yrs due to the 08 recession. You can see 'can down dragging' to slow speed in the mid section of the video. Typical work all night, 'hey can work today, you can sleep when die'...
Seen this one Stan,its awesome for two reasons,the whole haul route and the ammount of gear they munged up.
You got the whole clip Stan?That one only shows a minute or so of a few buggies going up.Ive been trying to get the helmet cam one where he takes off from the parkup and goes all the way up and then their coming down in top gear dragging their bowls all the way.At the start you can see a heap of 31s parked up and the bloke with the helmet cam explains how they started with 31s but because of the long steep climb it was taking them around an hour to do a load.I think it,s the same one where they finish up useing diggers and seml,s with bellydumpers to finish it coz it,s cheaper.I messaged Kenny ages ago to see if he still had the clip but got no answer.I had a look on Socal site but its not there.It,s a shame coz thats one of the best clip,s you will ever see.
dirtmanjones68 // www.youtube.com/channel/UC2nqkX9R1roQL49ocH_PUtQ All links, add https in front of // www ... Yep, Wood Bros used 31s for 5 days and on Friday, 'a big decision has to be made'. The decision was renting 57s. Excavator Show, Trucks Mass X, typical WB; 9R out of service with HEUI pump issue. Dozer sits for 2 weeks and then they haul the machine back to their shop. Hauler Coaster / Road Truck Drive The job was not finished with Truck and Bottom Dumps. One of the drivers got stuck and miss communication; grader operator pushed his rig over him. County stopped the truck usage. So WB used their 31Ds to finish that phase of the job and won another phase using the 31Ds. Sukut underbid the next phase by 50% under the engineer's estimate and is still on-site currently.
Good Oil Iron versus New Stuff and Iron versus Mexico
Wow, how many safety violations can we count in this video?
As far as the hauler coaster goes Stan,going down there in a semi would be hairy too. You can only use your jake for so long and you have to give it abit of a rest and you cant use your brakes very much at all or you would need a new set by the time you get to the bottom. You may or may not remember Stan Gavin84W posted on the forum that shut down a few years ago a few photo,s of the very few 666,s that are down here.One photo showed Gav standing next to a very sad looking and decaying 666 with bits missing ,tyres missing or hanging off it.Well as you know people who have earthmoving and earthmoving gear in their blood cant let any machine really just sit there and rot but when it is a rare legend like a 666 well no way people are going to let that go on and Gav informs me he is helping another man who has bought it and is moving it north i think to fix it up to its former self and will not be used but be displayed somewhere the public can see what a 666 is.I think they need to be congradulated for doing this because it was a terrible waste and a sad sight seeing that machine just sitting there rotting.I dont know how it ever got to that but it should never of happened in the first place but luckily a man who can afford to fix it has come along and a man who knows how to fix it is helping.
We spent a month preparing the downramp for trucks by taking out the stepper grades. One truck rolled on it's side because the driver missed a shift and the Jake killed the engine before the driver could get back into gear...Doesn't hurt to use Jakes all the way down. Foundation air brakes part are cheap typically costing bit over $100 for all new replacement parts. Short Video: Truck prep grading. You can see D9L widening out the haul road. ACI was the 2nd low job bidder, planning to use the 660s. I remember Gavin's 666 relic find. Restored for history, okay and scrap steel prices are at rock bottom... Aussie AG drag scraper; WB has over 25 from their AG division. All of the G.E.T wears off including the mounting brackets every 3 days. WB finally switched to using BG drag scrappers after realizing the constant short life of the G.E.T. wasn't economically sustainable.
I'd think you'd want to force a regen on the way up to the fire and I totally agree, it should have a 'battle short' option being its fire equipment and not spreading loam at some condo complex.
I dont think there was ever an issue of the 666 going to scrap no matter how high the price was Stan,would,nt happen.Been talking to Gav on messenger since,the front motor is still a goer but the backs knackered.They put some tyres on it and drove it down the track.
Tire prices could have played a part with the mass scraping in this area. Recession 91-92, 9/11, 2007-8 and emissions regulations. We'll see how much longer ACI's 660s continue moving dirt. Their equipment yard was cleaned out and I assume sold. The old ranch had some cool features like underground rifle range. Cheers
Stan, any chance i could have a private chat with you,i want to know a few things about the business of moving dirt in the states and im sure you could give me the answer,s.I,ve tried to do it on this forum but no go.Wont bother you too much mate.
squid, for your collection. 3axles from Sukut and Drag wagons from McCoy
I like the pic of the Euclid scraper, Looks to be an SS 32? Or an SS-33... they had a few different names for them.
Probably SS32 Do Facebook? 12V-71 https://www.facebook.com/groups/677074749042618/permalink/1375820669168019/
Oh, sure... get me hooked on another website. I do like some 12V71. Actually looking at that Euclid scraper again, I think that was an SS-40 going by the length of the bowl and the hoist banana. it does have power apron cylinders on the sides.
Good pictures and videos, in my place Western Balkans-Europe scrapers are not being used anymore.
djordje1, How did IHC scrapers get to Bos-Her? After 1991 wars of independence? SS-40s, lots of those green creatures were around in the 70s. ACI used them until CARB reg's parked them. Wipe out 15 inch tubed rubber on the low beds during loading for transport. Bitch changing out inner-inner tires. I like old, bit of newer; repowered Tier1-2 machines. Just one ECM and very simple wiring for the high-low engine speed control switch. Truck drive operator; notice the dozer bumpy divots. Took him a few days to learn how to pick up a dozer load. Old Mexican operator couldn't read grade stakes, so I put him on a different job ripping.
I did a bit of research, the above machine was an SS-33, the SS-40 was the same machine with sideboards. The only machines I saw with the dual tires were the Western Contracting TTSS 40's. The big twin bowl monsters, But didn't a couple of those tractors end up with ACI? The bumpy dozer guy looks like me the first time on a high track D9, It was really hard to get a new perspective from up high after being on old D9G's.
Okay SS-33s...ACI has SS-40s still in use pulling BeeGee drag scrapers maintaining haul roads...60 series repowers. Typical ACI nothing fancy or extras, just stick in the repower engine and make money. Two on this job even have hoods. @ 10:30 you can see the Bee Canyon landfill job at left side. I-5 South corridor, Irvine Cal...20 mile radius with 300-350 machines running Another SS-40 different hood with extra fancy patch I'll have to call a buddy who kept better track of equip models...McCoy had a bunch of SS-40s pulling drag wagons. I'm thinking those were dual tire tractors? Healthy Tacos, keeps the immune system primed
So we know nothing lasts forever,and it seem,s the company i work for stockpile of Cat D series scraper spare parts is very low,alot of the parts lately have been used to basically rebuild 3 633D,s to as close to new as you will get.They have been checking thing,s out as far as part,s go and apparently there,s not alot around so they figure and rightly so we best update the best we can,so they,ve bought about 6 ive been told 631G primemovers and are putting D arse ends on them.They are even going to make a 39G with a 39 trailer they have spare apparently.I,m not a fan at all of the G,s,rough as guts but if any of these turn up at our site i will have a drive and if their still rough as it will only be one drive,on the other hand if their alright i will be the the first to admit it and on this great forum as well. Anyway here,s a few pic,s of some very good old paddler,s that i enjoy daily.
D models are getting are bid old, so are we. Ks, with all the electronics fancy stuff, um????????? We'll see, 657 with fold down steps and rubberized fenders
This is the thing Stan,i have no doubt the electrickery on the front will stop the back from working.When i was told the bloke who told me was,nt sure if they were going to be.G,s or E,s and.i was hoping like hell they would.be E,s coz i,ve been on a couple of really good 37E,s,but no they,ve gone with the G,s so we,ll see what happen,s.If anyone can make them go alright,it,s these guy,s.
Y You,ve seen the 57K Stan?
Not yet, and per Peed's guys all Ks have the cab. Just popped up Operator here prefer G model 57s
All K,s have the cab what Stan?
So Cat's simulator training is common, controls, steering etc all K series scrapers 621,627,631,637 and 657 will have the same cab. Per Peed's equipment manager JA. Cat claims 1 week of simulator training is adequate to put a operator in the seat, on the job moving dirt. Outfits like Peed, doing jobs in multiple states (Calif,Florida, Idaho, Texas, Utah New Mexico, Alabama / Canada-Mexico) have a hassle finding qualified operators (and mechanic-techs a bit). The future (already happening by early adopters) is AI, telemetry, GPS, drones (jobsite control/grading topo-eyes in the sky) and simulator training (machine optimized movements, safety etc). Older model scrapers in good enough condition for update-rebuilds are difficult to find. Peed recently purchased 657s from Europe, shipped to Calif for updating, total rebuild. They repowered 777F with Tier4, 1st in the industry. Cry and wine about Tier4; just do it or lose the business, LOL Scraper work in S. Cal is 'very' busy, S. Cal's latest video ACI (previous 660s video) > Indy, Newhall Ranch (6 Flags Magic Mountain tower in background) 77 millions yards for residential phase 1 of 257 million yard developement. Never know, blow and go work can end if the economy tanks like 91/92, 2008, typical 8-10yr cycles. Ya'll take care, be safe
For the training factor, I see advantages in using Articulated Dump Trucks pulling pull-pan Scrapers as an advantage over K Series scrapers. Can use the same Artic Drivers and in their same comfortable cab, and convert them into scraper operators.
Dont know about that,ive heard they are only good on well established haulroads,if you try and take them where K series go they are very rough,more so than scrapers and go arse up easily.One,s a truck pulling a big bowl the other is the real thing that the contractors want and use.As for "converting"artic drivers into scraper operator,s good luck with that one.
Riiight… I worked on a job that the artic dump drivers had no clue where to dump, let alone have a idea about grade. No way in h$ll you would make scraper guys out of that bunch. And they tipped at least one per day on it's side... got to love the Moxy artic joint, but it would tie up an excavator picking them up.
Thing is alot of people say scraper operator,s are brain dead, and im not tarring everyone with the same brush but i,m sitting on a digger today loading artic,s with gravel and the 9,s been in and gone to the caprock and heaped the gravel and these truckies would have bounced all day on the rock,not one of them called up the boss,loader,grader etc to do something about it and after 3 hrs of watching this,coz it was also taking time to get to the digger nevermind the units steering Knocking themselves around in the cab i had enough and called in the 980.Scraper op,s would fix it b4 starting or call someone so i would,nt like to be anywhere near artic,s towing box,s,be worth filming.
Cat tracking finds 'sleeping' operators
Wait till they get the engine idling specs.
Can,t get away with anything which is good for stopping machine abuse.I know if i owned a machine i would,nt have it being over reved or idleing for to long,brakes being used all the time etc.In saying that the old gear could handle being abused alot more than the new by what ive seen and it could,nt dob on the operator which is not such a good thing if your the owner.
Stan would Peed,s have purchased 57 or 51E,s or maybe both?Seen a few Peed,s clips with new 57G,s in them but maybe they are like alot of contractors around the world they dont like them.One owner of a good size 57 fleet over here,not the company i work for but a family company with more 57E,s than G,s where very disapointed apparently with the fairly low hours they got before they had to rebuild the G,s motors.Apparently these motor,s bang the fuel through fast to help get the H.P and this wear,s thing,s out pretty quick.The other thing a few contractors have found out,not alot of operators want to spend time on the G,s due to the fact they are so much more rougher than an E at it,s worst.Doubt if there will be a buggy as smooth as a 57E,the new K,s will be the biggest surprise ever if they are.
57Ks will look like 37Ks with larger rubber
Each to their own but i cant stand the look of the K,s and i know it doesnt matter how they look its how they go,but they used to look so mean,now?
Be interesting to see how long all the plastic lasts with just some normal scraper work.Be picking mudguards and bits of grill etc up on the way back to the cut.
Single Turbo
Check out CJ Moyna and Sons of Elkcater, Iowa, Mobile Track Solutions. They make a few different scrapers with Articulated Trucks and also special built tractors. 56 yard scrapers if I remember right. They are some impressive machines.
Its interesting that the scraper manufacturer has an earthmoving division too. Would seem tricky to sell scrapers to customers who you are bidding against for earthmoving projects.
Actually they are a multi generation contractor that started modifying machines for there own use. With world wide sales wither you sell to another local contractor or not is probably immaterial. John also has an Antique Cat collection that is out of this world. ACMOCs 2021 National show is going to be held there.
Hey, I would sell stuff to a competitor if he was underbidding... I would make money either way.
I’m not liking this new stuff that includes everything from backhoe excavators blades dozer and scrapers too much plastic. I don’t like that cat switched to plastic fuel tanks on the f series backhoes I’m waiting for someone to punch a hole in it. With that being said I learned on the old stuff no cabs of course the biggest scraper I ran was a 623 they are rough but you don’t have to worry about computers and stuff they are reliable I loved running a scraper I never have ran anything bigger than a 623 I would love to run a 57 and just hog dirt
You ain't kidding about the plastic fuel tanks I have seen more than one break on the f series backhoes Biggest I ever ran was a 633 and that thing ran like rapped ape when it got an engine rebuild great machine for rebuilding farm roads in sand
I would have to say this would be about as close to a new 33D as you could get.They stripped it to the chassis,sandblasted it,put a new floor in the bowl,new bonnet,mudguards all new hoses,greaselines,new tranny,diff,all new interior in the cab etc seat steering wheel,gauges,padding on roof and walls and no new 3408,a big arse K19 Cummins 6 cyl instead,it goes very well indeed.There,s another rebuilt one on the way,that will make 3 that we,re retrieved from the grave yard and given a new life.Congratulations to all who were involved,you,se get 10 outa 10.
Here,s some more.
***, old cutting edges on the side of bowl. Agreed, cheap wear plates but looks like ****, IMO> squid, follow your employer on Facebook so you'll know what is going, LOL
As soon as you said K19 Cummins, I knew this was a Piacentini machine. Got to spend a Day or so with Kim a few years back, talking about the Wabcats and a few other machines.
No more rebuilds,from now on apparently the old 33D bowls get a G primemover put on them,even Piacentini,s are running out of 33D parts.Be interesting to see how they go,there,s been a few companies over here that have done it before.My only concern is how much rougher will they be to operate,i,m not a big fan of G,s for this reason?Pity they did,nt rebuild a E and try that first,but they know what they,re doing,Piacentini,s know about scraper,s they,ve made their own e.g 51E Elevator and the famous.Wabcat,a 51B primemover with a Wabco 333 r send,both are still going with the Wabcat,s having big hours on them.Loved Scraper,s from the first time i set eyes on one at about 8 yrs old,so there,s no one better for me to work for that,s for sure.Talking to a fitter who works out of the main yard in Picton and he told me they have mainly 57E,s and are building up on 57G,s,all the old 57B,s are gone,they have 10 working 39,s,a few 37,s 33,s 51,s and a few smaller one,s,but rough estimate is well over 80 making them the biggest privately owned fleet not only in Oz but the southern hemisphere.I know Lendlease like to brag that they are the largest fleet down here,but its not true. .
Dont know why it got a K19,but it goes hard.The first rebuild got a 3408,maybe they found the last one they had and thought this was a good chance to use it.Next one,s arriving in the next few week,s so we,ll, see what that,s got in it.Would love to spend a day at Picton with Colin or Brad Kim or the 3 of them talking Scraper,s,would be the best day.
Dont usually look at that Stan,but i,ll check it and see what you mean mate.
I would love to come down your way and hang out with them for a few days, I know riding with an Aussie in a US rental car is not always a good idea. Maybe I can do better in Aus.
Haha us Aussie,s can take abit and it would be a excellent day i,d say visiting the Piacentini,s.
Had a look Stan,best you tell me what you seen coz i could,nt find much but i,m new to this so i was probably looking in the wrong place mate.
THIS
Yes Stan i knew what you meant about the side of the bowl and i know it might,nt look the best,but it,s fairly abrasive sand they are in and i guess their thinking more about that than looks. I was talking about what you had spied on their facebook site.I had a look and like i said i,m knew to it and may not have checked it all out.How about telling me what i,m looking for and i,ll have another go.
Are you talking about the big float they,ve built Stan?Seem,s they have the capability to build just about anything.They have picked up a few jobs in the ironore mines up in the Pilbara for Rio tinto and BHP,so no doubt they would have more than likely already brought or are thinking about buying a float or two.Someone told me a overseas company had brought a few,but Piacentini,s dont say who and how many,they dont say anything over here anyway.
I understand using the old edges but at least try and make it look like something.
Only thing i can think of is they were on there long ago before she hit the graveyard and they,ve forgot to remove them,but i dont really give a toss about them to be honest,im more impressed by how it goes,very good indeed,how much work they put into it,a huge amount and how comfortable i am sitting in the cab operating a machine that,s like new.Won,t even think about that part of the bowl.
True enough they’re going to wear off anyway. Truly a fine rebuild in all other areas.
Anybody else notice the crawler rails being used as elevator chain? As far as the "wear plates" that doesn't bother me. As long as the "up front" part is up to snuff. Seen a few Cat dealer Rebuilds... and some of that stuff got missed.
D4 chains,they use them on the 51elevators too.Must be stronger and last longer i guess.
Sealed and lubed pins will last longer, saw the results of D-3 rails used as elevator chain years ago, unfortunately the links wanted to spread out and leak. They may have been a bit light for a 333 Wabco.
So there,s a guy on In@&+÷#( now spruiking about what a fantastic job he,s just done training some guy,s who have never been on a scraper before into fully fledged operator,s now coz he taught them how to operate a 37K.As i pointed out to him they should be reasonable the scraper does everything they just steer.He say,s its great they will get full bowls everytime and wont stuff the fill up.They should learn to do these things themselves .He say,s it,s good the companies end up with trained operators after a day or two.They end up with bored,half asleep steering wheel attendants who arent fully alert and not switched on after awhile coz theyve got nothing to do.I hope im wrong but i think i know where this is all heading and its not good.
Well incase you,se havent seen it yet,here is the 657K.This was posted by Kenny of SoCal earthmover,s and apparently someone told me he,s a big boy at Peed,s so a guess would be Peed,s are testing it.Correct me if im wrong.Cant wait to hear what the operators say about it,s ride.
I will correct myself,just found out this is Sukut,s site,a dam construction with a funny name.
Is it lake Isabella I know their is a huge dam project going on up there and if I remember right a buddy is an engineer up there I think he said sukut is doing the job that’s about 45 min east of me
Trampas canyon dam i think.
Sukut gets 1st 657K to test out @ Trampas Canyon Dam and Reservoir project in South Orange County???? April introduction?
Tier4 C18-C15: 657K went back to local dealer @ the get go, wrong pistons? or something? Ran a few days and video pulled, LOL
Yeah, just noticed that.
Well that,s not a good start,but it sort of show,s whats going on at Cat really.Never heard of wrong pistons before.Feeling this thing is only going to be good for so many thousand hours (hope its thousands)and then it will either need major things replaced or on the float to the dump.Not alot of faith in Cat anymore,making light weight disposable crap the last 10 or more years
660s get a new Cummins Tier4 life
Who,s are they Stan.I watched them on youtube yesterday,sound good.
G'day squid, ACI removed Detroit 60s because of CARB regulations and updated to Cummins Teir4 emissions engine with after-burner ****.
You know i reckon if Cat were to make a 100 new 660,s they would sell them all world wide as long as the price wasnt too out there.You can see lots of dirt getting shifted by the minute almost with these huge buggies.Around alot of the Cities in Australia now its getting like California built up from the coast to the hills so theres big hills to move to expand the suburbs,industrial areas etc,the 660 is perfect.
Ah, Cat would stick electronic B$ on them, then they'd be plagued with fault code ghosts like all new stuff. From the video, looks like a bit more wheel spin going on. Cummins maybe develops a more torque at lower revs.
Your probably right Stan and i noticed the wheel spin,any idea what cummins they put in them and what H.P. Looks like theyve got plenty anyway.
Hey squid, 15 liter QSX15 Tier4 Final/Stage lV 450-675Hp / 336-503kW 1650-2050lb ft / 2237-2779Nm I'll guess 550Hp rating same as D346 V8 Cat originally installed. https://www.cummins.com/engines/qsx15-tier-4-finalstage-iv If Cat manufactured new 660s, transmission would be electronically-hydraulically shifted via ECM talking to the engine's ECM. Advantageous to lower torque-Hp gears 1-2 to help prevent wheel spin. B-model 8 speed's flyweight hydraulic governor is dependent on travel speed-pressure, i.e. operates independent from the engine. Simple, but the operators have to have a very light foot loading and leaving the cut. Take care
To keep things totally fair... Can we get some new old style Euclids with 44 yard bowls and 16V71's too?
Im thinking 660 would spin wheels easier than the newer ones like a 57? Having never had the pleasure of operating one i dont know. I do know those big 6 cyl cummins have got some grunt even the older ones like the k19 i think it was that Piacentini,s put it one of the 33s they rebuilt.That thing was full on from go to whoa.
Forgot to say i agree RZucker some new big twin bowl 3 engined Euclids would be good.It surprises me that those big beauties in Murls Video which im guessing late 50s early 60s arent produced today there would be plenty of projects for them. Scrapers have gotten smaller over the years they were huge mothers back then.
Here,s some photo,s of Piacentini,s yard courtesy of another man who i wont name but thankyou anyway. Can see 51B and 51Es with elevators as well as just plain normal 51Es.Few auger jobs which are real good in the sand.I know they have 57s with twin augers in them. The 31G is one of 6 i believe they got from Queensland and are going to put the front bit on a couple 39s and maybe some 33s. The arseends you can see i think are bits that were no good when they fully rebuilt the 3 that ive mentioned and shown pics of not long ago.I will get this pic downloading right one day too,dont know how they turned out like this.If you want a close up look use 2 fingers to spread the photo.
Just WRONG Hearing a Cummins in a 660!!!
Just zoomed in on the Push Tractors, they too are marked REPOWER, what are they using, similar Cummins?
I think the two machines in the foreground of the second pic down are the Wabcats they built in house, 651 tractor with a heavily modified 353 Wabco bowl. The elevator frames, rolling floor, and rear fenders with steps look pretty familiar to me. Spent quite a bit of time on the rear fender of 353's with that grab bar digging into my ribs.
Quite the yard. Would be easy to mix and match components as needed. I'd love to have the ability to do that with our equipment. We've finally realized it's good to have a spare dozer and excavator on hand with all the trouble code and sensor issues. Had the JD 9510R tractor on a 2112E pan today blow out the pipe connecting the two turbos at the stainless steel bellows. Go figure! Simplicity at its finest.
Whats wrong with Cummins?
Nothing from any other engines Just shocked to see them going into so many prime movers as repowers. Allis used Cummins in the later years effectively Basically the Komatsu line were outdated Cummins designs Would have thought Cats staying with a Cat line but the Tier 4 is a different Breed Still a 660 that is Cummins powered just sounds wrong!!
Cost is everything. What is the difference in price between the Cummins and comparable Cat. I know on whole goods Cat carries a minimum 10% over the rest mostly on name. So is a Cat motor going to provide 10% or more life and production than the Cummins. I doubt it.
I reckon Cats are gutless compared to Cummins.The only Cat that ive come across in along time that had some guts was the 3412 in the 57E i was on. The 37G i was on for a little while had abit and then i found a 37E they bought in from another site that could keep up with the Gs and actually give them a shove up the rse goin up the ramp back into the pit.
Upgrading any of these old critters to a Tier4 Fly by wire would be an expense, Cummins or Cat. Would drop back to serviceable and or servicing supplier proximity being that optimal sales factor.
The QSX still has no vulnerable HUEI system either. But they are very dirt sensitive, constant inspection of the intake system can save some big bucks. Seen that on earlier IH Quad track tractors where the operators thought that beating that Donaldson air filter on the track would clean it out.
You know guys, lately my new customers for some reasons are shipyards and other marine facilities! And it is amazing how much really old iron they still use! Detroit two stroke screamers are everywhere, probably because there’s still a lot of them still used in the vessels! From 3 to 12 cylinders! Sometimes they change rotation to adapt them to machines! Like the manager of Resolve Marine ( not my customers but the man I know ) once said: we go 12 miles off shore and smoke up the sky!!! Other engines I see all the time at these places are BT4-BT6 and Detroit 6.5s and Deutz air cooled. Whole bunch of old American Cranes, Pettybone cherry pickers and even Bycirus Erie!
Dont know anything about these badboys except they were made for the U.S army as far as i know. Maybe Stan and a few of the knowledgable gents can tell us more.Tried to upload a clip of them working but it wasnt allowed for some reason. I like the look of these machines alot.
Thats the clip i tried to upload.Thanks mate well done.I bet if Cat still made these, say in this size and a large one and maybe twin powered they would still sell well.We seem to have gone backwards on scrapers,at least in the size. When you watch the socal vids with all those 57s tearing down the mountains you have to wonder how some 666s or big twin bowled Euclids,(if they still made them and what a shame they dont coz they would eat those huge hills)would go.Im sure a 57 with another bowl and motor would work well. The 666 and 660 and one of the 830s in a bigger size with their 4 wheel tractors would be alot more stable on the steep stuff.
Funny part is, in the Video those are Letourneau Westinghouse scraper bowls, not Cat built. Let-Westinghouse (Wabco) built most of them, Cat built a few, and Euclid built some of them. All were interchangeable. If you look at the Hitch, it was all built with the Letourneau pattern with 4 bolted plugs to connect to the hitch. The 4 wheel tractor was a necessity to connect to the scraper after being dropped by parachute separately from a C-141.
Dont know if i was just hearing things but as the bowl went past the camera i "thought" i heard some air being used for opening or closing something.?
The machines I worked with had the Michigan tractors, I don't recall air being used for anything other than brakes.
Do not think they had Pan brakes either, wonder if someone plumbed something else in?
They did have brakes on the rear axle, I think they were the LeT-Westinghouse air disc type. I could be wrong, we never worried too much about the brakes.
Somewhere here I have a Wabco brochure from the late 60's with a 4 wheel tractor and a 32 yard electric controlled bowl and a 1710 Cummins (YUK) engine that could be run as a double or even triple bowl machine. I'll look for it and try to put up a pic or 2.
Corona Clay Co has a 830M with dozer, Cat 29 cable unit. Used in the 80s to pull Cat 60 cable scraper and Southwest cable ripper. POS ride with that combo! No lack of power @ 430HP. Basically 824 with operater and controls facing engine. Don't remember 834 trans-drop box. Steel clutch piston rings instead of teflon type. Steering valve off scraper? Air brakes on 830M. Collectors, make an offer > scrape iron price.
Where is it at? Might be able to find it a permanent home at Santa Margarita.
Corona Calif, Temescal Valley next to the landfill. Owner: Gerald Deleo (951) 277-2667 <office
Gday Stan ,do you know what years they made these and were they made only for the army.Pity they didnt make a big one mate they look like they went o.k.
Some more shots from Piacentini,s yard.A couple of old 51Bs with elevators.4 old 37Ds with augers and a couple of 39s that may be getting G primemovers put on them.
I have a question re: Augers... what is their application? I have worked around cans a fair amount but never have ran one except to load them.
squid, Military Spec only, years of production Vietnam Era mid60s to mid70s. The 2 in the video are very late production with later D343 non-waste gated turbos and small body forged fuel pump, could have spacer plates block also.
Augers are very good for loading sand especially dry sand,throws it into the bowl real good.Piacentini,s do alot of mineral sands mining so try different ways of loading quicker and easier.
631Gs with 633E back ends.Apparently there were 7 made somewhere in N.S.W.These are owned by Ertech from Western Australia.
Thanks for that! I just have never known.
Are those MEGA produced 633E sliding floor elevating scrapers? With G model tractors? 1st MEGA models were plagued with cracking goosenecks and draftframes per the ex assembly mechanic-employee.
Dont know Stan if their Mega produced.Didnt Cat produce a few 33Es?
Nope, Cat's last 633 was D model and 639 twin powered. Early sliding floor 633s were MEGA manufactured. Licensed Cat deal, using new 631E tractors. Note: 657K SCEM videos were purchased by Cat. If you have downloaded copies, they'll be collector items, because no 657 (K-model) will be released.
What happened Stan?I know you said they put the wrong pistons in the one that was being tested but obvisouly something large has come about to can it altogether.Are they just going to keep remodelling the G maybe?
Looks like a return to the old style floor which although ive never operated a sliding floor,ive not heard anyone ever say they liked them.Another motor on the back would top it off,i dont like single power i know it will do the job but after being on 39s for awhile the extra power just makes everything alot easier.
Sorry squid, nothing that dramatic. To be released for purchase as 657 >without< model letter destination on Sept 17th. 1962 to 2019 = 57yrs for Cat's 657 twin engine scraper series.
Gday Stan,found this while exploring.Says Cat,i know a company here in Western Australia that has 2 33 E series ll s.[
Yep, looks like Cat product, 633E Series 2 sliding floor scrapers. Push-Pull Bails only available for Series 2. MESA (no longer exist) had 2, one C18 repowered, both forsale in Vista Calif.
G'day Stan,what's the go on the launch of the new big one.
squid, last PM from Gav Sept 19th, No, not in Cat system either although i have a price list i got from Decatur, 2.2M aussie dollars // Gav will give a heads up when Cat has the 657s in the dealer system. TBH, who would buy new 657 Tier4 powered scrapers? Calif contractors are re-powering 657Es with Tier4 engines if required for fleet compliance-regulations.
Repowering 57E,s is not only alot cheaper than buying the new model but I think they would be keeping a much better machine,less electric,s to cause problem,s,a more solid machine,plastic and lightweight steel on new one,and the E would be smoother to operate as I believe they are the best ,Cat have ever made.My own opinion of course,alot may disagree.
Seen Ralph Metzel,s gear all up for auction,40 something 51B,s and around a dozen 660,s apparently plus lot,s of pushing tractor,s,all in good condition as from what ive seen over a few year,s is how Ralph was known to do it.He is having a well earned rest as he is in his 80,s now.I just hope that his gear is picked up by people who will continue to look after it and there,s some serious earthmoving that can be done with that or some of that gear,just not in California.
Cheap buys. Non repowered 51s probably going to Mexico to die. Mexicans will run into the ground with the D346 engines. Service truck with 14K crane sold for $7,000.00. So Ralph and John are out of the Cal dirt moving **** show now
What auction is it? Or has it passed?
Auction is over. RB L.A (Perris, Calif) I assume, I didn't ask. My buddy called @ noon today and was just throwing prices for what the scrapers sold for and the Pete service truck.
John too Stan.Is because he has alot of gear and just cant afford the repowering?That,s a shame,John,s got some good old gear too.
I assume John reached a point he could say f---k this game and quit, about two years ago. John's repowered 51s sold for okay amount. Ralph's repowered 51s sold for mid $50s, Tier0 51s between $22-30thou and 660s, I don't know. Ralph's equipment yard in Corona, Calif will sell for okay money, located in a industrial area with easy short distance access to major freeways. Take care mate, sorry about all of the wild fires in Aussie-land
Thankyou Stan,things are real bad with these fires.Mainly eastcoast but that,s were most of the people are and weather is getting hotter,people are dying,another young fire fighter today his wife is pregnant with ababy.You guy,s are over here helping us as are Canadian,s.It is something else when people from the other side of the world come and help i tell you it restores some faith in mankind.Hope you had a merry xmas mate and i hope you have a good newyear Stan.
Prayers from here for the fighters there and for you all as well Squid.
Thankyou mate,seems its going to get worse before it gets better.Big one,s in Victoria now and they due to the layout of the land i think have bad one,s like probably some of worst in our history have been in Victoria.Worry were running out of people to fight these fires,some have been at it for months.
Sukut's 1st of 6 new 657 Tier 4 scrapers
Thanks for that Stan,and i hope you and all the other contributors are all ok with this filthy virus. Would love a drive just to see what their like but dont like my chances. Will go and check the spec,s out now. Stay save all.
I've run a mix of the 631's. One job where I was burning the brush on a freeway job, they had 6 -Bs to run 4 with a 9n pushing. Same company had 4 -Ds not far away sitting idle, but they wanted to keep working the old -Bs. One morning I showed up to run my excavator, and 4 of them were in some stage of disassembly and repair, and the scraper crew were going back home. They only had two going. That's more of a testament of going cheap on the service though.