Please Tell me what/why/how you personally would spend your saved up cash on what pre-def machine. This machine will primarily be a "county/borough" contractor secondary road maintenance machine. Summer maintenance, Winter plowing, Winging, Scraping ice and will have a Ripper, Front plow, side wing, and snow gate. I have several older machines but newest is 95 Champ 740A series 3. @26k hours on it. I have a 726A same year at @6500 hrs. It's only got @800 hrs on motor, but lost the main 6wd hose in the gooseneck and starting to lose rest of the hoses. My 73 & 76 Cat 12G's are both tired and ready for back up machine status. All good machines but repairs and downtime are telling me time to upgrade to a pre-tier 4 machine. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
I don't have any real answers but I've been contemplating the same thing. Based on your zip, you're in Alaska? Who has the best product support where you are? Seems to me Cat and Deere are getting to be the only 2 real options in graders and from what I've seen, you can't beat Cat when it comes to long term product support. I'm not in the position to spend this kind of coin on a machine at the moment, but this represents, in my minds eye a machine that's got value. Its likely going to bring 100k, but its going to have product support forever, its low hours, and pre-emissions. https://www.minnbid.org/Mobile/AuctionLot/45292 100K for a blade is a chunk of coin for maintenance blading in my world though, I've been pondering the same thing as far as machine upgrades go. Local options are C and D series Deere's for $50-60k (c series) but they make me nervous as I've heard of several needing 30k transmissions by 7k hrs. Finding a C Series thats had a new trans and didn't have ridiculous hours would be interesting but I haven't come across any. Makes me seriously contemplate hording Champion parts and stick with the series 3 and 4 generation of machine and just keep rebuilding them, but I don't know that that's really a tenable option either. I've been meaning to research ex military machines a little bit, but haven't gotten down that rabbit hole yet
Yeah I’m in Alaska. NC Cat is an 8 hour round trip in a car. Deere is across town. So there’s that. But Here’s the deal with old machinery. Cough up some money now, and count on costs of your regular maintenance and maybe an oops here or there to fix something dumb. Or set on the money and face weekly broke downtime that turns into all night long in the shop, night after night waiting on parts that you cannot hardly find anymore, plus costs of lost work time (pay someone else to complete my work by deadline at 220-250/hr, or pay out Mechanic time at bottom near $120/hr for a private wrench or +\- $200/hr at any major shop - offsets every piece of profit I can make with the old paid off machine. Doesn’t take long to pile up a fortune of labor in old tired machines. I can’t do it all myself anymore like I used to and the operator has to get some rest between shifts. It’s a tough call but I’m ready for some run time.
I’m pretty old school myself, I wish I had the time to go thru each of these machines and fix all the problems. I was raised up working in the shop between jobs we rebuilt and repaired and fixed everything. In frames, trans, finals, welding whatever.. But truth is the G models are near 50 years old. That’s testament for sure. Cats are tough and reliable. Work horses. I just sent their predecessor 13k/12F to the scrap yard with broken final housings. I’ve in-framed twice and done the clutch twice, and this was second time into the finals and we found they were not assembled properly last time. Busted out several bolt holes in the spool between bull gear housing and the chain box. I learned basics of plowing snow in a pony motor 12 on the bench seat next to my dad, that made that 13k/12F look like a caddy. There’s a time when you gotta let go. On top of all that, The real operators that could run that 12F with a wing for 18 hours and be happy to start at 6 am the next day are gone too. If you want to attract good help it is paramount to have reliable equipment and they will usually work to keep it that way. Anyway I’m interested what is the good and bad of the newer machines. I read quite a bit here but hate to clog up other peoples threads with my jib jab. Thanks!
A 95 Champion should be a series 5. If you wanted to look at lower hour and/or newer Champions or Volvo's you could call Jade Equipment in Edmonton and ask them about parts availability going forward. Generally Champion and Volvo sell for quite a bit less money than comparable Cat or JD graders. Just from reading on here, the last of the Champion machines had fewer problems than when they went to Volvo. There several newer Volvo's for sale on the net with less than 10,000 hours.
Just so that you know, You get what you pay for, I can tell you from personal experience the 140H is a very good machine and no regen or DEF systems, I had a 2007 140H, just over 14000 hrs on engine 3176 series before rebuild, very reliable lots of power, good fuel economy and has done everything you said you need one for, if you could find one you should consider it, don't buy junk thinking you got a great deal, if your old school and want reliability, this would be my go to machine hands down. good luck
Jade is my only parts source. The Volvo shop 8 hours away has some misc stuff left over but mostly buying from Jade and marking it up. I was thinking that series 5 wasn’t till 97. I’m going to have to gather up serial numbers now and double check my years. I’m probably screwed up. These Champs are pretty solid. Just put circle sections in the 740, and now it’s having a clutch issue. I’m looking forward at needing to take them down one at a time and re-hose them and repack cylinders etc. I don’t have a lot of help and can’t leave my contract unattended. But yeah they are a great machine.
I definitely agree, and have been looking at 140/160 and 143/163 H models. 6wd isn’t critical but really helps with these neighborhoods that are packed into short steep hill country.
Let us know what you get, with pics if its not to much trouble.
Have the Deere GP series been upgraded transmission wise? Have same sort of life? I have seen some decently priced D model deeres. Tempting. I have 3 champions now. Just brought this 720 home to stand in for my broken 12G to be the winging mule. But I gotta replace the alternator and several hoses are wasted.
That's a clean looking grader. 140H is a good machine but a low hour unit will command big money.
That old girl looks pretty clean, If thats a series 4, I've got a twin to it, love those old girls. I haven't run across any of the G serries with that many hours on it. We have a 770G at work thats probably the nicest machine I've run, its been good but its got less than 2k hrs on it. Most of my grading has been as a side gig with my old Champions. We primarily use graders for misc snow activities and shouldering projects. I'm really curious to see what the guys in the newer Deeres and Cats have to say about the machines they've been running. I've got a buddy thats really spent time in newer blades the last few years. M series cat doing construction, 770G deere doing county work, then he came to work for us and got put in a 2012 ish Volvo to go wing shoulders. He said he felt like he'd been down graded to a Yugo, I've run that machine and I can say I agree.
According to the head grader instructor at the operating engineers training center, the new JD graders are real nice to operate.
DOT here has a fleet of aging 720As.. One of the contractors here bought one at auction, and everything had been done over. Even had 6 new winter tires. Volvo is just a newer Champion. I run a Volvo now, but the only thing I find is that if you fart, it throws a code, and parts are super expensive. A company here that looks after woods roads for logging companies, has a fleet of 12 cat machines that they bought new in the 80s. He keeps them in really good shape. They have a new M, but he doesn't figure it will be a good a machine as the Gs
Not to hijack the thread, but 12 machines to do logging roads should be an entirely new thread on its own.
I just mean he has had great luck with older Cats and keeps them up.
We have a few Gs in our fleet, good machines, just way under powered, the newer 140Hs are a big upgrade, the older M series can be alot of trouble but when they are working good they are good, they are heavier then a G, can't beat them for iceblading, quick steering for recovery and plowing, newer Ms are much better for sure, the problem with operators that are used to the rack is the joystick takes some time getting used to them first, the steering will be there biggest complaint while roading with wing and plow on.
From reading on here there were lots of steering issues with the early M series. So would have to make sure all updates were done.
It seems the updates for the M series never ends, some do them some ignore them till there's a major problem it seems.
Had a 120 M at a place I use to work at. Cat had to come multiple times to change software and yes new operators found it very hard with the joysticks. Just off warranty and had to replace left joystick for big dollars. Plus it had to be recalibrated by ET. Had a 14H Cat at a place I worked at. It was extremely Heavy Duty built. Probably worth the money in the long run. Simon C
I have a soft spot in my heart for Cat products but I see a major benefit to retaining the steering wheel like Deere has. I lost a great operator this season to a job with an M series. I have one of my best operators that has essential tremors which affects his ability to accurately control fine motor function. He does fine with a rack, and can run a Hoe like mad, but all the micro switches and joystick/switch only steering could be an issue. Likewise what’s a guy supposed to do in a Cat M with arthritis? Some of us have old people problems at younger ages than the rest. I’m leaning away from the M series as much as I’d like to have one. They really are high tech gamers paradise. The H series are bringing more money with high time on the clock than some M’s are ! And Deeres GP are competitive. I see a big jump in tech. Dollar for dollar though, Cat H vs Deere D/G/ GP I think the Deere has more power, more function and more comfort. But I’ve personally never run anything newer than the 90’s Champion. Tough decision.
When I worked for NC they kept getting into bidding wars with the dealer in Montana over graders. The state would lease 20 machines at a time with guaranteed buyback programs. At one time there were about 40 used graders in their used machine stock. I don't know what is going on with them now but you could check out their web site. New graders are huge money now. Used 140H models when I was chasing them never sold for less than $90,000. We took in Deeres of the same size that sold for close to the same. The Deeres then were joy stick steering and then had a small steering wheel in addition to the joy sticks. All of them were nice to run. I didn't like that electronic pad up on the right side of the cab that controlled all the auxiliary stuff plus it had push button start there. All in all though, the H model Cats I think were the best I've ever been in both for the operator and the guys keeping them running.
The first time I got in our 770g at work the shop manager gave me a key and told me where it was parked……. Neglected to mention the key only worked on the door. Spent a solid 20 minutes and 2-3 phone calls before I figured out it was strictly push button start……….. Really mentally cussed out the supervisor that sent 3 foreman that would never run it to the dealer training instead of the guys who would be.
Would you guys be scared of a 2008 160M with 15,000 hrs? For sale from a Cat dealer.
My question would be, did it come from Montana and how long has the dealer had it in their rental fleet? All those government returns ended up being rented to get some kind of return on the obscene trade values given to keep Deere out of that state.
Does it come with the service history? At 15K hours the big components are gonna start to need rebuilding if they haven’t already been attended to.
You would have to give a little more info on the machine, like same engine, did Cat do all the servicing, kinda thing
We have a couple units in our fleet a '13 772GP, and a '14 140M2 both with 13000hrs and I can attest to the major components needing upgrading when your hours get up in this range. I personally would stay away from anything with 10K or more hours on it. Does anyone have any experience with Komatsu Graders? We are looking at bringing in a brand new unit and this is $100K cheaper and we can see it in 6 months if we order in Jan. compared to JD who is saying 8-12 months min.
There’s no maintenance history in the report so I’ll have to inquire. The root of my question stems from the Cat maintenance schedules, but from my own experience there’s machines that far outlive the schedule and just running jobs as a road maintenance machine is light duty and easy on parts compared to construction jobs. Seems like by 15k it would have been through the overhaul shop already.
Around here government run graders get some of the hardest use in the shortest period of time. They also become the graders that the contractors end up with when cycled out of the fleets. Depends a lot on which counties they are in. East of the Cascade range they get 2,000 or more hours a year doing snow in the winter and gravel roads in the summer. On the west side they basically just sit and the control joints just lock up from the junk that falls out of the evergreen trees. Most of the contractor stuff never gets more than 500 hours a year. Parking lots aren't too hard on things.
If you're not doing any fine grading, it doesn't have to be super tight. A little slack won't hurt, so I guess hydraulics, drive train and electrical would be more important. A machine from a smaller township like Oversized runs would be a great find, but how often do they trade up?
nice to know that, I would say you have a good point. Market is different then here for sure. Thanks!
My oldest 74 Cat 12G was just that, purchased from the city with about 10k hours on it. It’s been the workhorse of the company for near 30 years. @26k hours now. Transmission is finally worn out. She only goes in 1,2,3. Can’t complain.
My rival has a pair of 655’s and they seem like a pretty good machine. Between the 772 and the 140 what would you say are the good and bad? Which machine would you personally take and why?
Both good machines, the 140 is a M or a H series? what are the hours on both and service history and what year are they, also what type of work did they both do, ex, working on a construction site or working for the county, all plays a role in your choice, if you need parts which brand would be the easiest to get help and what dealer would be better to deal with in your location, also price and do you get any warranty with any of these machines, even 30 days means something.
I would totally agree with your points there for sure. Biggest piece of that being local dealer service quality. In his reply he has both a 140m2 and 772gp. That’s what I was asking about.
When the hours climb up on the M series from experience lots of gremlins start happening especially the older ones, and can be both frustrating and expensive, while I am running a new Cat 150AWD and has been mostly trouble free for the last year I would not want to own one personally after the warranty run out, I only can say that because we have a older 140M that has been alot of trouble from day one and had a lot down time, also our sister shops have had lots of troubles and down time with the M series also, we have a few JD's in the fleet and have been good machines for the most part, we haven't had the GP series of John Deere's only the rack systems, a Cat 140H would be my go to grader if buying used, that's my honest opinion, hope this helps.
I spent 20 years in the county equipment shop. The last 3 as supervisor. Retired in 2020. We ran plus or minus 2 dozen graders. When I started, they still had a few 140G. Most were H mosheens, with at least 6 143 AWD rigs. There were still 3 JD graders left in the fleet, but they were not memorable. Towards the end of my career, we got 6 140M1 graders. In my very last years there, the M3s were starting to get rotated in. I would strongly recommend the H.
I finally got an update from the Dealer, Finning CAT. Its been in around Prince George BC most of its life, maintaining roads. Comes with new chains, Snow tires are 70%, Full inspection repairs and service completed. Full differential and finals were rebuilt, Strong runner, work ready. Comes with a ripper, mastless wing and a front lift group and 4 way dozer plow. This is the kind of feedback Im looking for. I really want a solid machine that doesnt have issues. I already have five of them in my yard. I hear you about the H series machines. I have been hunting a lower time H series 143/163. They are super hard to find. I'm putting a newer balderson wing and rigging a front plow on my remaining 12G now for a backup machine until I get my champion problems sorted out. When you say "gremlins" in the M series, what sort of issues are you having? I heard there's some ECM issues, etc.
Thanks, I really do like the H series. Just not a lot of guys excited to run them anymore.
Yeah some have ECM issues, well as for gremlins on our M series, I Am not a big Fan of the Huie pump engines, ex, C7 Acert engines, we have replaced the pump 3 times now at 5 grand a pop, plus Cat has to clean the head so your looking at 9 grand per pump, so common rail are better, we are on our third engine in our 140M and so are the other older 140Ms at our sister shops and a 12M 2 lost a engine also, our last engine From Cat was a new reman and burns about 14liters of oil on a 12hr shift, was burning oil right from day one which Cat said was normal, but has got worst now, wiring harnesses on the Ms are a working part also so if you get a broken wire good luck finding it, the harness is about 6" round and we had to replace it, not cheap, I could go on and on, I have a older thread called 140M down, you may find it interesting, Find a H series, they are out there, all depends on what you want to pay, best of luck to you
I’ll def agree that doesn’t sound like a good time or track record.
Talked to the operator of this 16M today. 45080 hrs on the clock. Since day 1 in the arctic. No major repairs just a few electronic issues and maintenance since 2010. So they are out there.
Wow, over 45000 hrs on original engine, sorry, I would be suspicious, he may not be telling you everything, I could be wrong though.
I work for the same company, (my real job) and I'm not surprised at all. I'll have to chat with the heavy shop supervisor. But From September to May these machines rarely ever shut off unless they are in for maintenance. Every day and night shift of the year theres 3 of these 16M's manned around the clock. He said they still have a 16H for backup.
They must have done some work on the engine in the off season. It would have to be a magical engine to go that long in a grader application.
I totally understand the disbelief. I was shocked when I saw the hour meter reading. For perspective, my new work pickup 2500HD, was bought in August /21 and it has 3100 hrs on the engine already. 25k miles. The 16M is a 2012 model was showing 35k miles traveled in reverse. So I’m betting over 100k in forward gears. There’s a lot of truth that the hardest thing on an engine is the cold start and I’m not going to be surprised when they say nothing has been replaced except maybe injectors or pump. We’ll see. ♂️
Thinking its the C13 Acert engine in that 16M, they had a few issues, some had timing chain problems, pumps, injectors, Cat had a law suit against them from Log trucks owners with the C15 and C13s engines in them, as a result Cat does not build truck engines anymore, a local business in this area bought 20 new Western Stars for hauling wood with the C13 engine, he ended up suing Cat, had major problems with the engines and with Cats regen system, The new trucks were in for repairs all the time or sitting on the side of the road, 45080 hrs on original C13 engine would be a great promotion for reliability for Cats C13 for sure.
I might have just found a 143H with @2700 hrs on it.
I don't think it's inconceivable there's a problem with the hour meter. I've had hour meters run on after the machine was shut off. Reading above about major problems with C13's it would appear the engine is magical if the hours are correct.
Hope you get it
Well folks, I got a chance to get up with a drag racing buddy that works for the Deere dealers here in AK, and they had a machine they were supposed to have out on contract for a year with Alaska Railroad that was released early. After talking almost an hour with a mother guy that has operated the machine on several occasions since it was brand new I got an offer to buy it that I could not refuse. So I’m proud new owner of a 2007 872D. 14’ mb and combo ripper scar like I wanted. Front and rear aux hydraulics. They are going over the whole machine to make sure the service intervals were up to date and delivering it to my shop 250 mile round trip. I have to say, after I got in the cab and made some laps around their property pushing snow in rows and circles, even without snow tires on it, I have to say it’s light years ahead of anything in my fleet. It’s not new but super clean and tight for 12k hours and comes with full copies of all the records and dealership service intervals are good for peace of mind. I think I found a wing already and have a line on a front plow.
Congrates on your purchase, looks to be in great shape, Deere is a good machine, best of luck, keep us posted on how it works for you, thanks for sharing.