Is there a way to identify gray market machines by serial number? Im looking at a Cat 312 and Hitachi EX120-2. The Cat ID plate says its a 312 but the sticker on the machine is 315.
Some unsavory contractors have been known to re-badge their machines in order to bill them at a higher rate on hourly jobs. That's what the 315 sticker is about. Call the dealership and run the serial #'s. They'll be able to tell you where the machine was built and if they can get parts and manuals for it.
why would someone be able to charge more for a grey market machine then a domestic machine, what is the difference as far as the work that the machine can do? I could see when trying to sell it because of parts, but as far as hourly rate to run the machine I would say that is a stretch, at least around here.
It's not that a grey market machine is more productive than a local one. It's that a 315 is a bigger digger than a 312 and it'll dig faster than a 312, so it would be worth more per hour than a 312. Some shoddy contractors rebadge their machines to make them appear to be bigger than they are (e.g. labelling a 312 as a 315) so they can charge more per hour for a smaller machine.
Don't know about the 312/315, a call to Cat dealer would confirm. The EX120-2 is grey market, but Deere can get parts for that machine, never had a real problem with the -2 Hitachi. Cat, not so much. If it's grey market, you'll have difficulty getting parts from local Cat store.
Got a call from the dealer selling the Cat. They said that the id plate in fact says 312 and that the 315 stickers were added. My concern, if someone is going to paint their machine and put the wrong stickers on, what kind of maintanence did they perform. Also, by the looks of the bucket, they rounded off the tooth shanks so much so that a couple would have to be cut off and re-welded to get new teeth put on.
heck we are planning to put smaller model number stickers on equipment so the loadbed driver thinks hes legal!
we had a 312 that was grey market... the easiest way to tell is if it still has a factory radio.... the fm only goes to about 89 in a grey market machine... instead of up to 107+ or whatever...if it is a USA machine... Oh be prepared to wait for parts.... we had one set for about 2 weeks waiting for idler wheel.... i think they had to make the part as long as it took to get the part
Grey market Cat machines can sometimes be a problem, but not always. A lot of the horror stories are due to the intransigence of some dealer parts personnel who will put the serial number into the 'pooter and if that serial wasn't delivered in their territory they say you can't get parts. And that's that, buddy. However, if you get an experienced parts guy/gal who is willing to put in a little extra effort, you can usually get a good result. Think about it. Cat are a global company. They're not going to go to the trouble of designing a totally new machine just for delivery to, for example, Japan. One of the good things about Cat machinery is (almost) every part is stamped with it's part number. For example, if you need a seal kit for a cylinder, look for a part number on the cylinder. Take it to the dealer and they can enter it into a database to find out which parts make up the cylinder. Piece of plastic trim? Take it off and look at the back. Chances are it'll have it's part number moulded in. All hydraulic lines leave the factory with their part number on a metal tag. Easy. If you can only get a part number off a related component, it can usually lead in the right direction. It just takes a little effort, that's all.......
Thats a good tip
I have seen many machines with the wrong decals probably to make them seem newer or otherwise worth more. I bought a CAT 215c LC a few years ago; when it was repainted it had decals that just said 215 which actually would have put it in the 70's but someone had taken a hand stamper to the serial number plates and changed the C to a D, which would have made it newer. The 4HG serial # made it a c model. On a Cat you can tell a lot about the machine by the first few letters of the serial number. Interestingly, this machine was made in Cat's plant in belgium as all 215's were and all the safety stickers are in german. The cat dealer says the machine was made for the US market and all other labeling is in english, just the safety stickers are in german. I just bought a Galion grader and it was sold to the previous owner as a 1980 model. As soon as I saw it I thought it was late 50's/early 60's by the styling, but it was decaled a 118C which would have been made between '71 and '74 when the 118 was discontinued. I ordered a parts book for a 118C and immediately knew that was not it. The sheet metal and cab were totally different, as were other things. The serial number plate had been removed but with a lot more research I decided it was a 118a from the mid 60's. I later found what I believe to be the serial number stamped into the top of the frame at the very front which would be for a '64 and a tag put on the frame by the original dealer that said the one year warranty would expire 4/18/65. Good luck, mitch
Your absolutely right Cmark, it's more about the dealer than it is anything. I have talked to a Cat dealer in Washington state that has no problems looking up parts for grey Cats. On the other hand, my local Cat dealer won't have nothing to do with them. I've even asked the service manager "what if you have a customer bring in a 307SSR for service/repairs?" He said "we tell them we don't work on grey iron". I'm probably the only person in my area that has the parts manual for one, local Cat dealer doesn't. And yes, Cat is very good at putting part numbers on their parts. But as in the case of the Rega 307SSR excavator, many of the parts are mitsubishi numbers. The parts guy will say, "that's not a Cat number, I can't do anything with that". You have to tell them, yes, get in your system, look in Cat Branded Products, look in Mitsubishi, basically have to tell them how to cross over from mitsu to cat numbers. :Banghead It's not so much a question if they can "get" grey parts, it's more a question "will" they look up the parts. Frustrating. On the other hand, my local Deere dealer doesn't have a problem looking up grey Hitachi machines. Even if they don't have the parts pages in their system, they contact corporate Deere and they provide the parts pages so you can look up the parts you need. Actually rather painless.
in australia there is no problem getting parts for imports, the machines are pretty much the same everywhere. One thing thats stands out though is some chinesse machines have a mitsubishi engine which can be a problem for parts(This was for a 312b)
It's not the part's availability that concerns me the most. It's the un approved ROPS and safety devices, having hired hands and OSHA on most jobsites there is no way as an owner I am going to throw a un-safe machine out there for one my hands. EDIT:I just re-read my post and it sounded as if I was completely un concerned about parts availability and that is deffinatly NOT the case. Pj
The case on the Cat grays is that the Cat parts system will not give you any information on anything built within the last five of so years. You plug in the serial number and you will get something to the affect of "Not Supported". Sometimes older equipment gets covered later on in it life. What you can do is find a serial number of a machine built in or for the US and look up the numbers through that. This doesn't mean that it's guaranteed you will get the right part but in most cases you will. You may have problems getting parts for cabs as they are different for models built for the Asian markets. As ATCOEQUIP says, it all depends on the dealer and the particular parts dog on how much help the local dealer will give you. For Komatsu and Hitachi machines you can get any part that you can get a number for. Most of those grays I worked on came with a parts book written in an Asian language but the numbers and graphics are all you need. The old gray Kobelco and Yutani machines are going to be a real problem unless you know an old dealer who wants to cover those lines.
hear hear, John C...couldn't have said it better.
Its always been interesting to me how when I tell the cat guy I'm ordering parts for a Cat 110b I get the "Oh its a grey market machine, I don't know if we can get that" But if I just call them up and say heres a part number they don't seem to be able to tell its grey market. So far we haven't had a part yet that we couldn't get in a few days, including idlers and misc stuff. The guy we bought the machine from was importing them from where ever and getting them shipped to MI, and had about a 20 machine rental fleet and sold quite a few. Anyway he seemed to know alot about them and claimed that the 311's and 312's shared all the same components (at that time) as the old 110's and 120's. Things like the motor was still the mitsubishi motor but rebranded Cat. Does anyone know if thats true?
That was most likely NC Machinery. The have excellent grey market support. They will even order you parts books straight from Japan. I got one for our 312and one for our 311. They're little hard to read but once you figure out how to order components instead of whole groups , then it's not bad.
Are your guy's parts books really in Japanese? Our parts and maintenance book for the 110b was printed in Japan in english.
Yup. Even the part descriptions. When I order a part, I always ask the parts guy what the number comes up as. They have the English descriptions on their end.
Hey guys I read through this thread a little bit and have read a few "horror" stories if you wanna call them that. I've thought about in the past of buying one of these gray market excavators especially when I saw the prices. I recall seeing some dealers in the Vancouver area in the heavy equipment trader selling some mini-excavators for as low as $25000 and I think that was with a thumb, mechanical quick change, and two different buckets. Maybe I've got some of my facts mixed up but what can you tell about some of these gray market machines that I should know about before I make a trip to the bank in a couple years? Here's one of the dealerships I'm talking about; http://www.tractorhill-equipment.com/
Whatever you buy make sure the supporting brand dealer is good or at least tolerable, and not too far away. Generally there seem to be a few more hoops to jump through while hunting part numbers and sources than "native" (non-grey) machines- at least in the wilds of Maine with an older Tak. Thanks goodness for atgreene and his Tak postings turning us on to suppliers/parts here in Maine! :notworthy
Get it inspected, like anything else I suppose. We were looking at a Hitachi X60URG at a dealer in Washington one time had a guy go inspect it and it turned out to be a total basket case. That dealership was getting them in bulk of the boat, painting one up, advertising the painted one cheap, but really you were getting the POS that hadn't had an enamel over hall and was worn out mechanically. Basic bait and switch tactics. Watch out for those guys. We bought our gray line 110b from a guy in MI that another guy we knew had bought from before. Great guy, came off the lowboy ready to work and no problems.Literally saved about 15-20 grand over an equivalent machine with 2x more hours locally.
I met the Tractorhill salesman at the Ritchie Bros sale a year and a half ago. He was checking out all yhe machines at the auction. Their machines are mostly straight off the boat.
Be aware and research before you buy. To me the gray machines have a few factors you want to keep in mind. Primarily safety is a key issue as safety standards are different the world over. All of the posters on this forum seem vary aware of the safety efforts required at all times. A gray machine may not and typically do not have the same safety features or even emission levels and standards you would see on a machine built for the US. Both can be trouble for the owner of the machine as well as the person that gets hurt. And if someone does get hurt the owner is the one getting the flak for having a machine with deficient safety features. 1) IF you know it is a gray machine you can be cautious in your parts buying and service to make sure all goes well. This extra effort is the offset to the hopefully lower price paid for the machine. 2) Dealers may not support warranty on gray machines and may even charge more for servicing these as current flat rates and service manuals may not apply. Keep in mind if you have a gray machine it was brought into the US around the OEM and OEM Dealer and impacts their sales negatively. 3)IF you DO NOT know you have a gray market machine the “Stuff” could hit the fan when you get to the parts counter. Both in identification as well as availability. I have worked at an Loader and Excavator attachment manufacturer for 28 years and I can tell you OEM’s, including Cat, do make some machines different depending on the market it is destined for. I have first hand seen this include pin sizes, controls, Hyd cylinder components, hydraulic fitting types, hose ratings, filters and fasteners differ. In fact when we build attachments for machines I provide the machine serial number to the OEM Engineering staff to get the exact data on the machine and one OEM will refuse to supply that data if it is gray market and should not be in the US. In summary be aware and verify with the OEM Dealer to make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. Some gray machines will be no hassle and some will be never ending problems. Mr.Mel
The company I am working for bought a Komatsu PC 50 US. ( Cheap I hope) After a few days of trench digging and back filling, the operator noticed not only fresh paint coming off the bucket and blade but there was also a layer of bondo underneath. Blade and bucket looked brand new until the bondo started to wear off. Buyer beware!
cat 215 serial number 57y1466
cat 215 what would sprocket and chain no be serial no in last post
Sprocket is 6A-7539. To get the correct Part Number, how many links do your tracks have..? When you say "chain" are you referring to a complete track assembly with shoes or just the Link Group which has no shoes..?
57y1466 thanks
What part of these two questions are not clear..? Answers to these questions will lead to correct Part Numbers.......... You mentioned the Serial Number in your first post.
they just got back to me 51 links thanks, ps with out pads
Without track shoes means you are looking for what's called the "Link Assembly". Part Number is 5C-0949 (OEM) or 290-3452 if you want to purchase a Cat Classic Link Gp. In fact it appears as though 290-3452 is the only option available at this time. About $2300 each. You will require two pieces, one for each side of the machine. Try Offroad Equipment - www.offroadeq.com/
nige is their another part no of a sprocket that fit this machine or sprockets thanks
Not that I'm aware of.
thanks