Been out of stock on a 3/8" drive battery impact I wanna buy for weeks. Guy says they MIGHT get a truck in a week, and it might be on there. Got me thinking about this Chinese virus business. I really hate them bastids now, and I'll willingly pay a fair amount more for tools made in the USA. I bet I'm not alone. The guy who runs HF is no dummy. He responded personally to an email I sent him a few months ago about a diversity hire manager-ess who was clearly in way over her head. I hope HF has a plan to start selling stuff made in USA. I spend a lot there.
I really don't think HF will be changing to US made items any time soon. Even most products today that have what one might consider American brands are 90% or more composed of imported parts even if the final assembly steps are done in the Western Hemisphere. We as consumers have pushed the companies to go cheaper and cheaper and the managers of those companies are more or less forced to outsource as much as possible to keep the shareholders happy.
I won't accept that anymore. These communist dictators are trying to kill us. If we go back to China now, we'll get what we deserve.
The HF's around here have always carried a small assortment of local/USA made stuff... it's just not their main thing.. and if they can't make money from people buying the disposable junk how would they stay in business... Drove by one of the HF's in lakewood the other day - parking lot was full!!! no lines - so store was full as usual.
Many moons ago HF sold USA made tools, SK, Milwaukee etc. Damn good prices too. Then the founder died, kids took over and they went all china crap. Ed
Borrowed from another forum. You will want to sit down for this.... ALL electric drills, and for that matter battery operated tools from DeWalt, Milwaukee, Porter Cable , Ryobi, Black & Decker, Makita, and pretty much everybody else except a handful of European made tools are MADE IN CHINA . DeWalt will market like hell "Made in" and "Assembled in USA" but really its a small fraction of the overall product that is. Bite the bullet and buy what you think is best.
China tools BAD
Yeah, was surprised to find my Milwaukee Fuel, 18v was chinee. But, must admit it is a decent impact. Biggest problem for American companies is getting the price down, workers cannot live on Chinese wages.
That is exactly the problem. We all say we support American/Canadian manufacturing but at the end of the day, money talks. The only way we're going to get the manufacturing costs down low enough to be competitive is if we replace workers with robots. I can't speak for anyone but myself but when it comes right down to it, I'm not made of money. I can't afford to pay 2x as much for an item just because it was made here.
A big part of getting the price down is having a big enough production run. If you don't build in huge quantities it's almost like hand crafting and we know what that costs. d.d.
I needed a starter for my ford 555 a few years back and looked for a " made in USA" starter for any price...it did NOT exist..even the rebuilders use china parts..so I had to buy a made in china starter..so far it works fine, the original starter to my surprise was made in england and lasted almost 40 years....I doubt the made in china one will last that long, I have a bunch of sears craftsman power tools over 30 years old still going strong...I would gladly pay double for true " made in the USA" if they had the old fashioned quality...but im afraid anything made now has a short life span built into it as " planned obsolescence" plays a big part in the profit of most companies...
Companies can be greedy too. When they moved production to China with much lower labor costs they sure didn't pass the savings on to their customers. Prices pretty much stayed the same.
But what would the price be if it wasn't made there ? d.d.
They must have made a profit before production went to China. Look at Vice Grips, the China made ones aren't as good, they're still OK but shouldn't be the premium price they were when made in the US. Don't know how they can claim original on the package. So many companies are part of a big conglomerate now that it's all about keeping the shareholders happy. A lot of times the shareholders have no clue. I worked for a large industrial supplier. They're so stuck on getting the highest margins they're dropping customers and products because they can't get the 70% margins the shareholders want. They're not selling near as much product either and losing millions in the process. 50% margin is better than no margin. They stopped special orders on a lot of products and they don't even have stores where you can just walk in and buy stuff. Not everybody wants to order online. They are too dumb to realize how much they are losing with their new strategy of trying to compete with Amazon. Why not have stores too like your competition does?
Holding companies are active investors in many of these businesses and their activity is to maximize their share value. A public company has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to return value. 20 or 30 years ago investors had more of a long term view of business investments, now the focus is on quarterly performance. Good companies treat their employees as a valuable resource unfortunately it is my belief there aren't many of those good companies left. As one person I am doing my part to buy made in the USA wherever possible. After coming to the realization how dangerous China is to the free world, I really don't want to set foot in a Harbor Freight any longer. End of rambling...
Nephew is a store manager for them, will call and see what's up, if he is also having issues or not.
I think the milwaukee tools aren't too bad... they are definitely overpriced for made in china stuff... their quality is better than the HF chinese stuff however... the makita made in japan stuff is also better quality than most of the milwaukee tools for near same pricing. I don't have a lot of the makita stuff but you can certainly tell the difference between it being made in japan and anything chinese... just something about the look and feel of it
Consumer throw away society harbor freight started out buying out tools in overstock then resaling them they then went to making tools and they were Chinese garbage that you went and got because the price reflected one time use So many things in modern society are consumable compared to 40 years ago my dad has a black and decker grinder he bought in 1980 it's ac dc so the pipeline doesnt kill it he paid 80 bucks for it at that time he was doing backhoe work by the hour for 35 bucks that was market rate that grnder has never let us down a grinder today can be bought for 100 bucks if your looking cheap possibly less I charge 110 an hour for a backhoe Most of my tools wont last long enough to pass onto my son let alone my grandson I still have drills and socket sets from a retired mechanic that my dad and grandpa bought out in 68. People will not pay a price for a tool that will last 40 years dependably in this day and age so we buy consumable junk so cheaper is better
Tools---The big box, that's just a place to hang badges of old trucks and trailers and fronts are now totally full of badges, I only keep some specialty tools in those boxes plus some junk. I work out of this cheap *** cart, filled with Snappy, some Matco but I haven't bought any of those brands in years. I buy Napa Carlyle wrench's. That cart has just about everything in it to take care of what ever I need. I don't need or want anymore iron than I have.
Problem as I see is the upside down view of labor and who is entitled to what share of the profit on something. I see CEOs making 3,000 times what skilled labor makes in building an asset, screws the company up big time and gets canned with a golden parachute of millions of dollars. All the people who built the asset get is a pink slip and a bunch of news media and politicians saying labor did it to themselves. And who says that there is a fiduciary duty to share holders? They are not banks and are not insured in any way on their investments. Their spot on the bankruptcy recoupment is last. This crap about the officers of the company running it to maximize profits for the benefit of the shareholders is just propaganda used to pad their own pockets.
Well, just to show you how bad my OCD can really be...........that air hose on the floor in the second pic is driving me insane! LOL
When I am looking to purchase a tool that will be used for a job and I can't have more than one I will always buy quality.. even if it costs 10x more even with the cheap stuff I like things that don't break the first time you try to use them... very seldom anymore do I buy stuff at HF for work or even home use unless it really doesn't matter when I want to get the task done and even then there are a large amount of things I just won't buy there because it is exactly like putting money in the toilet and pushing the lever... I talk to a lot of guys that say... well if it breaks I can return it and get another.... well that's all good and great if your time isn't worth 0.10c/hr.... and you don't have any kind of deadline of schedule to keep!!! but if we're working in a trench 10 feet down out in the road and you got several pieces of machinery and guys all waiting on the guy working on the 24 inch pipe and he breaks the only 1-1/8th socket because it's made in china!!! now you have a several thousand dollar an hour job sitting there doing nothing!!! yes I know we have more than 1 socket that size... but that isn't the point
Yeh... the hose does need to be tidied up!!! but the mallet handle overhanging the bottom of the cart is just insane!!!!!!
That's a snare for salesman.
I dont know what would happen in the big picture but they way most people treat there tools and other stuff it wouldnt hurt this country if we couldnt buy cheap low equilty stuff maybe if people had to pay more they would learn to take care of were their money was going. I bet 75% or higher good and cheap tools end up lost or tossed. I have way more than i need because they are so cheap used.
>Bite the bullet and buy what you think is best. I'm going to bite the bullet and hold off on any unnecessary tool purchases until somebody brings out a Made in USA line The demand is there. I'm mad and China and it's not going away. I'm not alone.
Automation. We can do that. When the ammo industry rebuilt in Eastern Europe, they build new factories that eclipsed Western European factories. All the ammo I bought for IPSC comp while living in Europe was made in Eastern Europe. A friend works for Manurhin, formerly a reknowned French arms maker. Now they make no more guns, just .... ammo machines for Eastern Europe!
But if we don't, our wages will keep going down and manufacturing layoffs continue. Then in the future we'll be poorer than if we spent 2x more on tools. And China has shown that it's ruthless. They'll come at us again. Harder next time. No country can continue if it outsources key products. We're outsourcing medicine to China! It's insane.
There are about 10 big investment/insurance funds that own 80% of the name brands we see. They are risk averse and intermeshed in ownership, with directors for one sitting on the board for others. It's incestuous crapitalism, and unfortunately it can only be fixed by revolution or a debt cancellation. Because all new money really comes from debt (usury), and Trump knows that, and he took control of the Fed recently, we may be headed for usury reset (usury is not just high interest, look it up). This would avoid the bloodshed of a revolution. But there would be very difficult years. I know, this is deep stuff for a heavy equipment forum. Trust me, this is a real possibility. Amen bro on not wanting to go into HF anymore. Or Walmart, I call it Hellmart now.
There are lots of workers who make a decent wage but very few CEOs in the world. I've worked with a few. I used to be in that world. They are the most "on" people you'll ever meet, constantly alert, driven, impatient, workaholic, first one in the building last one out, and only ONE of them that I worked with was a good father to his kids. I don't begrudge them that huge salary. They work like nuts, miss their kids' childhood, die of stress. The big investment/insurance firms are, imho, the real boogeymen in this situation. And they thrive only because of cronyism, debt, and the fractional reserve banking system.
Minimum wage has almost doubled here. From $8 to $15.
I can remember min. wage at 95.cents hr.wasn't in the work force then but heard the same gripes as today
I worked at shop with a guy who was a manager for a large steel supplier who's head office was in the UK. He quit because the general manager wanted to purchase a larger $750K plasma table. They already had a plasma table but the GM wanted a bigger one. The problem was they had just laid off about 20 workers because things were slow. His conscience wouldn't allow him to continue working there and he was making close to 6 figures. The industrial supplier I was working at came right out and said they weren't making enough margin so were dropping a lot of customers and suppliers. They did more to lose sales than they ever did to gain sales but most of the decisions came from the US parent company. Somebody wanted to order a specific Lincoln wire that the company website said was discontinued and could no longer be ordered. I called Lincoln and not only was it available but they had lots of stock at the Calgary warehouse. I inquired with the "new" welding product manager and was told it can't be ordered and Lincoln is being discontinued because they don't offer the same discount as Miller or Esab. I asked if he meant all Lincoln and he said no. Then I asked what if someone wanted to buy something from Lincoln that wasn't in stock and he said that was possible. Then he said Lincoln is a vendor and everything they offer is available. ***? If everything is available why can't the customer order the wire they require? He totally contradicted what he had said 2 minutes ago. They had got rid of all the knowledgeable product managers and replaced them with people who had no clue what-so-ever. Good way to lose customers when they can no longer order items they've purchased before. The customer was one of the oilsands producers in Ft. Mac. Some people and/or engineers often specify that only a specific filler metal can be used.
My own retirement providing Previous employer fits the bills all listed above. CEO and CFO get prime Stock shares as a 'Bonus' every year, the employees get drippings, the same people find ways to 'Trim the Excesses' meaning cutting benefits and supplies to the daily user employees to show a tidier profit level to share holders(Primarily Company Execs) then as shares flatten again go into Cost Savings programs to limit New employees as more old ones retire than are replaced adding workload to existing with no additional pay or benefit increases. Currently they are not drawing the ex-USN personnel they "Knew" would be beating a path to their doors, they are not receiving any new line crew people from the local Trades schools either as the surrounding utilities(REA's) pay better with better benefits and conditions. The power stations are hurting as the air to erase the carbon footprint accelerates on the Dirt Burners and nuke is just playing out until it makes a retirement age, CTGs are not dependable for long duration usage. Not sure where the nation is going to get all its electrical power from in around fifteen to twenty years as baseload plants will be so worn slick as unable to remain viable and the tradesmen that built/maintained them are disappearing faster than ever.
That sounds---------------Nasty!
Everybody is going to own a cheap generator they bought from Harbor Freight...
My first job was at a garage and I made $3.65/hour. I remember buying crappy salty food at the roach coach the first week and realizing it would eat up a big portion of my wages. So I started brown bagging, saved up enough to buy a 68 Mustang GT convertible when I was only 16. Brown bagged most of my life, saved boatloads of money. Part of our problem in consuming Chinese goods is a loss of frugality that you need to have in order to have some wealth accumulation by the time you're middle aged. People save a few bucks on Chinese crap then blow big bucks on useless services and luxuries. I see young folks paying $8 for a fancy coffee at ShariaBucks and just shake my head. They do that every work day, which is $40/weekly, and will never get ahead in life with that stupid consumerism.
Generators are no answer when the power goes out. Those little noise makers will eat up all your cash just keeping the gas tanks from running out. If you are keeping the freezer running and some kind of heat going for the house they are worth it. If you are running the TV, lights and computers, you will eat up a whole lot of money feeding the little monsters.
Several years before built this house looked at Stand Alone Wind or Solar systems as a backup power source, those people are NUTS!! Solar was the worst with a 2200 WATT generation array at $14,000, then the grid tie auto switch at another $4600, add in the rectifier charger and batteries for 240v at $5500, then the building to house the batteries and equipment. A Wind Turbine required same switching and battery/charger sets but the turbine was only $9600. Sat down and did the math, could NOT justify that level of expense for a iffy system. Sales associate quoted a twenty year warranty on either EXCEPT there was a maintenance program to get that honored, as a sales company they would do all repairs and maintenance FOR A TIDY FEE to keep the system we would buy at optimum function, of only $150/month. Pretty well a NO Brainer maximum NO!
Maybe they should make more 12 or 24 volt appliances so solar could be a more viable option? Some RVer's are happily off the grid. Any big power requirements you'd need a generator though. A rural machine shop up here runs the shop off a big diesel generator instead of the power grid. Probably too costly and/or unable to get 3 phase power.
Yeah, not seeing it ever being viable for us. Too much electronic stuff to deal with or high end use components like my two stage Compressor or the welders.
$150 a month for maintenance after you had to spend over $24,100? And assume you had the building just sitting there unused for the batteries and assorted equipment! My monthly electric bill average for the last 12 months was just $130.55 and this is, other than the woodstove, for heating is a 100% electric house and as due to my health we have depended more on using the electric baseboard heat than we have in the past. So going with that system I would be loosing $20 a month even if they gave me the system for free and only charged the maintenance fees!
How big of a boat? If you got boat loads laying around well that should pay down the national debt. California is the land milk and honey-you got any boat loads of milk and honey?
Pretty much my own thoughts. The big lie was selling all that excess power Back to the utilities to net a savings, could not ever get that math to add up.
I always like listening to people around here that get talked into installing a solar gridtie system... they always tell me how it is paying for itself in only 6-8 years and they're selling all this extra power back to the grid.... Ok... whatever... but I've lived in this part of the state for over 40....50 years now and I have put pv panels on my shops here n there... and tracked how much power I actually got out of panels... with our climate you'd be 'lucky' to get even 50 percent of what a california average install gets per sqft of pv's on a yearly basis... so most of the 'systems' that people get suckered into around here are 8-10 KW's of pv's no batts and a 6-8 KW GT inverter... also most of the money they think they are getting is from the taxpayer funded subsidies of you selling excess power at 3-5X the going rate back into the system... plus most of these systems require you go on a 'net meter' setup... ie... you pay more for power at peak times.
No China for me if at all possible.
I still wonder why the supply ship was never shown for that show
I have read many posts on here about CEOs inflated salaries, wages being to high, and other reasons for manufactures to go to China. I agree with inflated CEO wages. After WW2 the top CEOs averaged 10 times more than the trained workforce. Workforces for the most part were union shops. The workforce made a decent living and because their true wage was documented the government (all parties are equally guilty) got there fair share of taxes. The workforce had money in their pocket and never complained about the "temporary" federal income tax that was imposed during WW2 staying in place. There was money to build the interstate highway system, the entire nation profited in general. Then several things happened. The government kept raising taxes on businesses. The businesses with the help of the government broke the unions and wages went down. People became pissed and many became more independent and formed small businesses. Historically proven small businesses can more easily hide income and the real tax that was paid went down. The government continued to become more inefficient and many in the nation wanted something from the government for nothing. The government in their greed had already started taxing business at a higher rate. They kept pushing for more. By the time it hit 90% federal corporate income tax for profit over $1,000,000 dollars the larger corporations had been pushed enough. They moved out, and made their money overseas. They did not have to deal with frivolous lawsuits, they did not have to fight in courts for years to be able to break ground to build a new plant, they built and hired cheap labor whom was only to happy to have a job. Meanwhile the products quality and our home workforce declined. Now it has gotten to the point where a one person fishing lure manufacturer has them made in China. We did it to ourselves and now we are selling our country off at the rate of $800,000,000,000.00 (billion) a year. We are in a sad mess and have got a major job ahead to get it back! I wish us the best of luck.
Good one O-I-H, very true, but people just hate hearing the truth.
Oh... come on TS, I can't believe that...
I agree for the most part but I think gov't has more to blame than any other player. Politicians have sold over the last 20 years have sold our country out for their own self interest - $$$. Up until NAFTA Alexander City Alabama was home to Russell Mills that made Russell Athletic clothing. Before NAFTA the small city was bustling with warehouses full of sewing machines, looms and so forth. Now all those warehouses sit empty and the Russell line is made in Central America. Just look what it takes to build a house - sewer impact fee, water impact fee, storm water fee, school fee, plan review fee, permit, etc. Here to build a $300,000 house it could cost you $10-20K in those fees before you break ground and we have a cheap cost of living. Then we have the EPA, OSHA, MSHA, DOL, etc. plus all the state and local agencies that have volumes of laws and regulations that we break on a daily basis without even knowing we broke a "law". If the government wants to nail your ass they have a "law" to use as a nail. Nothing I hate worse than a power hungry bureaucrat with a title and a little authority. Rant over.
On the solar panels- I was blown away 2-3 years ago, when I worked next to a house that had just put them on. The retired guy that owned the house told me he spent over $50,000. Said he calculated out a 25 year payback. He was probably 70-80 years old. I'll give him this much, was a optimist. He did mumble- "my kids won't have to pay for electricity". I would just as soon not prepay for my next 10-20 years of electricity.
It was my understanding that most solar systems are leased and not directly owned by the home owner. It was a problem many times for appraisers because the property did not carry the value of the solar system that some people try to claim. The lease in many cases is seen as a liability because it is a cost that must be paid no matter who owned the home.
Some of the hidden future costs that solarsalesman don't mention very loud is while most panels have a useful life of 20-25 years most don't get past 15 years for one reason or another... panels start to lose their light converting ability the moment they are put into use!! most panels will have lost over 10 percent of their 'efficiency' in the first 10 years and some will have lost double that... ie... a hundred watt panel will now only be producing 80 watts in full sun at noontime At twenty years their half-life has doubled again and this is just the actual PV cells in the panel... you'll have diodes going bad, faulty wiring and solder joints, seals will fail on the frame, branches, hail, freeze issues will destroy panels... it's a long list So like most salesman 'facts' take them with a grain of salt... and then slash them in half to get more down to earth realistic numbers. The good news is you can get pV panels pretty cheap these days in the last 10-15 years they have gotten into the .25/watt area or even less if you don't mind doing some work or buying seconds... and 1.00/watt for ready made panels. of course this is in at least pallet quantity.
One problem with all this **** chat without it getting political, which is border line right now. {Ranting about elected officials, that keep getting elected}.
Some of those types are greenies and don't care about payback time. My wife wanted me to investigate wind power when we bought our ranch, the rule of thumb I discovered was you need an average year around wind speed over 10 mph. That's a bunch of wind, a whole bunch of wind. We are fairly windy here but nowhere near that year average. Also the wind generator should be ideally about 100 feet off the ground. It was completely impractical (thankfully.)
While agreeing with everything you posted O-I-H, I take issue with the last comment. The "getting it back" ship and all the possibilities it contained sailed long ago IMHO.
What caused the crash of 1929? Greedy people wanted more than they needed. Foolish people thought they could get something for nothing. Impulsive people bought now in the hope of paying later. Income and wealth were distributed unfairly and dangerously. The rich regarded themselves as an all-knowing elite. The masses were not paid enough money to consume all the goods they produced. The economy was unsound. The corporate structure was sick. The banking system was weak. Foreign trade was out of balance. Business data were inadequate and often incorrect. This heap of conditions left the economy a flawed and loaded gun, and when the stock market crashed , the gun did not merely fire--it exploded. Now take a good look at what was just stated and it's not hard to see the parallels of then and now. IMO.
This presentation will change your mind about the causes of the Great Depression. As is often the case, we find that what we were taught in government schools was incorrect. The single greatest factor in causing it was government blunders. I know, surprise, surprise...
Actually what I stated above has been discussed and written about by many economist that have come to the same conclusion over the years, I have read many books on the great depression. The government is always the first to blame so it seems. And no it won't change my mind, The population and it's culture are as much to blame. The citizen puts those people in power.
Having read the writings of these economists, then you're familiar with the effect that the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff act had on our export revenue. Tariffs deepened the Depression considerably, cutting back severely the incomes of any business involved in selling US goods abroad. Surely you also followed what the Fed did in tightening the money supply sharply in early 1929, just before the Depression. While previously the money supply had been growing steadily, actually too vigorously, the sudden cutoff was the single largest factor in precipitating the Depression. Both can be accurately characterized as government decisions. Unwise decisions. It's pretty hard to argue that Fed monetary policy and tariffs are done by citizens. That info and more is all in the presentation above. Did you watch it? Here are some more interesting data https://econclips.com/great-depression-caused/
Bad paper with everything combined caused a perfect storm. Banks loaning money to be gambled on the stock market {what's know as a short call}. I listed 11 items that combined all caused or worsened the problem. And in that I listed Foreign trade was out of balance. And at my age there are no surprises. And I wasn't taught in a government school and even at that the GD wasn't really taught in schools at the time. In the name of that video book it says {what they don't tell you} Who is they? The term they is used alot these days.
Totally agree as to what are seeing today mirrored off '29 and the naysayers look to the stop gap measures emplaced on the stock market as lifesavers they are not. A newbie descended on the stage as to how to forestall a depression, name was Keynes, came up with a Brilliant(only In his Mind) philosophy Keynesian Theory could borrow your way to prosperity, falls into same category as a Pyramid Scheme where the political side loved it as could sell debt as a loan or bond and "recover later" to which that never arrives as is always NOW and that later seems as fleeting as promises of a habitual liar. I was taught in Catholic Schools late in my education, they did teach the Depression as well Civics as I went thru in History and Social Studies, laughable or cryable as the schools have not for a long time.
Current times are different and I don't necessarily share in the doom and gloom. Before CV the economy was going strong, at least the portion I operate in. Worker's wages are up and projects are bringing in solid revenue. What it looks like over the next 6 months is anybody's guess but I predict our economy will bounce back sooner rather than later. What does concern me is the tremendous amount of debt. Contrary to popular belief the Chinese do not own the majority of the US debt - we do as an IOU written by the Federal Government. If everyone knew how the Fed works we would've already burned DC down... One of the ways the US can attempt to claw its way out of debt is with petro dollars. Now the US is the world's largest exporter of oil there might be a way to chip away at the debt but spending has to stop first. I realize this is a pipe dream with politicians in charge however the influx of petro dollars into the US will have a significant affect on our economy in a good way. The US Gulf Coast refineries have been refining fuel for Central and South American countries for years, it's why fuel is so expensive in Central America. Now with the excess in the domestic oil supply the construction and expansion of the refineries on the Gulf Coast from Texas to Mississippi will require 50K additional craft workers over the next several years. Billions of dollars are being invested in these facilities. This additional refining capacity will bring more petro dollars into the US economy. Just a thought or two.
For usury (debt), we need a reset. This has happened throughout history, when usury has led to unsustainable economic expansion. Usury is when money is considered property, and is leased out (not the definition many of you may hold that it's excessive interest rates). Sustainable economic expansion is financed by honest work and efficiency gains. All this debt is a huge concern, as you say. That will cannot continue will not continue. Check out this little audio talk that explains how under our current fractional reserve system, debt it money. https://voxday.podbean.com/e/darkstream-606-why-the-debt-economy-is-collapsing/ As for petrodollars (shale oil), that was a great hope until Chinese virus hit. The current oil bust is going to hurt us there, because shale production is harmed by slowing down its rate of harvest. I already know 3 oil workers laid off. I'm expanding my construction business with one of them. Ted Cruz lays it out here. As a Texas pol, he definitely has a dog in this fight. It will be difficult to restart shale production. But we need to do it. https://www.podbean.com/ew/dir-v7x4w-8929969
Short term yes the industry is in recession, long term is a different situation.
I agree with several items posted above, plus I don't preach doom and gloom. But we already went through another bad paper scenario in 2008 caused by banks making bad loans. The memory is short.
Care to opine on how that worked out for Boeing (amongst others)..? With larger organizations today seemingly all run by accountants it seems as though the trend over the past 20 years or so is for operational management to be instructed from above to do more and more with less and less in the way of resources. All the company is concerned about at the end of the day is the stock price which drives the bonuses of high-level management. Until that modus operandi changes, nothing else is going to change IMHO.
Not my memory - I damn near lost everything I had made the 15 years prior to 2009..
I would agree with it's all about share holders You would be hard pressed to find a CEO that has done anything industry related other than push paper The forum is full of threads of companies layoff people discontinuing service all because it is more profitable for a while till the customers stop coming in Everyone dreams of the day they will be millionaire and they think that borrowing money leveraging assets and playing on the stock market is the easiest way because it can be the laziest The laziness is what leads to the same politician getting elected over and over even tho every one knows he is greasery than a used car salesman because if he can pull off what he is selling I can be lazy and have what I want I believe the surge in construction has been been because the us is getting manufacturing back on shore if that can continue then it will keep oil demand up
What I really did not care for just before retiring was the thought line of my previous employer management in that period of time. They "KNEW" what ENRON did wrong and What THEY Needed to do in the same context to make it work. Made no bones of it they would work at becoming a Energy Brokerage House instead of a supplier, be rid of the Power Stations but agree to narrow margin Wholesale Contracts from them to sell at HUGE Markup Margins. The Managers really were that stupid to think they could do this as Enron could not, actually believed what they were putting out as they "KNEW" could make a cash cow of it, too stupid for words. BTW STILL headed down that very path.
What I see is the constant advantages and bail outs being delivered to the super rich. The super rich got the depression era laws changed to allow a repeat of the causes. When Glass-Steagall was repealed by Clinton it allowed the investment banks to barge into the commercial bank areas and take advantage of all that investment. It allowed them to buy up commercial banks and then lump all their assets together. They financed everything on debt figuring out that they were so big that the entire US economy would be brought down should they fail. It was a setup then when the house of cards got blown apart but the super rich knew the politicians would bail them out with taxpayer money. The next big coup was the supreme court allowing massive amounts of money from corporations to be allowed in political campaigns. Once a corporation was thought of the same as a real person the super rich scored again because now they have the media in their pockets. Want a certain candidate to win an election, just start buying media time on any and all platforms. The masses don't have the time or the training to find out things on their own. They just sway in the strongest wind. Enough money will create enough wind to blow all doubts away. So will people go back to work when the death levels fall to what the masses consider an acceptable level? Yes they will because we on the bottom don't use our collective power to change the system. The big dollars keep churning those that won't or can't think beyond their own immediate interests.
Subprime was and REMAINS a mess. Cannot Believe some days these style loans are STILL pressed for use, 110% of loan value, extra cash for 'Improvements' to aged properties, people dumb enough to step into those or even ACCEPT these.
The best part was that the sketch in the YouTube clip was actually broadcast 1 year before the market crash of 2008.............
Those two are a blast!! They make it all sound so Kosher and On the Up and Up while explaining the pitfalls so deliberately. Laughed My AZZ Off!!
The video is the perfect illustration of my post. Thanks Nige!
Did you choose Boeing in sarcasm? Discarding their descent into SJW diversity hires and pushing out experienced white engineers, with inevitable corrosion of performance and competence, they have an unenviable record of corruption dating back decades. https://www.corp-research.org/boeing I have direct insight thru a family member, white, competent, experienced, who was offered early retirement in order to hire on more marginally-qualified engineers of color. Boeing hoisted themselves on their own petard. The smarter folks are retiring early. Airbus will now dominate the space, despite their own corruption and unfair government funding. Harbor Freight, the original topic of this post, is an example of a company getting ahead thru hard work and innovation. While I disagree with their foray into China these last 20 years, the original idea was sound and profitable (see it back in the first page of replies). The corporate ethic is still one of hard work, personal responsibility, and optimism. Lets see how they weather the anti-China storm now. I've been upper mgmt at a company in trouble. If you come out, you come out much stronger. If you don't come out, well, work on your resume and call your contacts. I put my name at the top once when the VP asked me for an ordered list of those to lay off. If it's not working and I can't help fix it, I leave.
I chose Boeing as a classic example of a large organization whose public position is that they are striving for improved efficiency, but the final result did not necessarily go in the direction they originally intended. There are plenty of other examples but that one is fresh in the memory because it is so recent. Boeing is/was by no means unique. Talking about "unfair govenrment funding". How much do you want to be that Boeing is a classic case of the "too big to be allowed to fail" syndrome and will eventually receive some type of external funding to enable it to stay afloat..? TBH I'd love to see one of the Middle East sovereign wealth funds buy Boeing. It would be small change to them.
For the reasons I noted above. Corruption, and SJW diversity hiring increasing over the last 15 years, driving down competence. AirBus is and always has been openly funded by EUSSR governments, was started with public money in 1970. https://infogalactic.com/info/Airbus There's even illegal funding of AirBus being litigated currently. Boeing for its part goes begging to the public trough for bailouts, cuts employee benefits, but its execs make fortunes when things are good. Execs rotate in and out of public office and lobbying. I say let Boeing fail and have smaller companies start up in that space.
I don't think Boeing would be in as bad shape as they are if they had not been forced to ground an entire fleet of perfectly good airplanes because two pilots, and I'm being generous with that, who were poorly trained by the companies they worked for, not poorly trained by Boeing, poorly trained by the companies they worked for, decided to fly two aircraft filled with people into the ground.
If want to get really serious Every aircraft is Unsafe, so too autos and motorcycles, where generally it is due to Poor training, lack of respect, incorrect assumptions that a human misinterprets and drives headlong into another solid object, another is mechanical failure but is less likely for most. With correct training and some decent second seat time most can become good enough to preclude death or being maimed as a defined point of condition.
Will footnote as to McDonnell Aircraft as my Dad worked there some 31 years. Heard and saw the changes over time, JS McDonnel was a sharp businessman, wanted more from his employees so implemented incentives to go to college, further education, work out of the line and into managerial slots already knowing how the machine(company) worked. Late 70s Sandy McDonnell becomes CEO just under JS, merger with Douglas, company begins to falter, 1980 JS retires, Sandy begins changes that are at best ridiculous with Employee Self Monitoring no first line supervision, Just In Time parts procurement, assembly line drops to a crawl. Douglas had issues with bribes to foreign nationals to sell contracts, all got lost in the shuffle of lawsuits and degraded performance financially end result Share holders sold out to Boeing in a Hostile Takeover 1996 even as Spoken as a Buyout under the Finance wizards on Wall Street.
Unfortunately I think you are right. It would take a long tome going without before it would happen.
And now we are rewarding them same banks we bailed out by paying them to disburse at least the first round of the stimulus money to corporations.
I remember Brock Yates was once asked why he drove most everywhere. His quip was that his car was very unlikely to auger into a corn field at 600 mph, and when he got to his destination at least he had his own fine car instead of some rental crap box. I've been up with a buddy in his Cessna high wing, that was fun (gee look at all the pot farms back in there where I use to log firewood or fix cars to earn honest money). But PTL I'm retired from the corporate job where I had to fly so much. Every aircraft is unsafe, as you say.
Maybe if Boeing hadn't bought the $3.99 air speed sensors at Harbor freight? or installed them with software that they probably didn't understand that would fly the plane into the ground when the $3.99 air speed sensor failed, or sold an OPTIONAL sensor failure system that would alert the pilots to the failed $3.99 air speed sensor from Harbor freight, or ensured that the pilots were trained in the aircraft as produced, not as they imagined it would fly if the $3.99 air speed sensor from Harbor Freight always worked. I tend to believe Boeing had all the power they needed to require whatever training they asked for, they lobbied hard to NOT require more training, and won because of lax enforcement and look how much they saved.
Boeing has there own fire department at there plant in mesa when they have fire line issues to buildings there are crews on it 24 7 till it's fixed they have there guys locked and loaded the entire time that goes on My friend does all the digging for the sprinkler company that services Boeing he on more than one occasion had a backhoe on site manned around the clock in excess of three weeks on premium time I say that to say this Boeing never had problems spending money some pencil weasel looked at a spread sheet said we can save this much more with this sensor and we have a cheaper operating cost at this level of training
A friend of mine worked at the Lazy B for quite some time, he was a cabin pressure inspector on 747 line. The very last plane he worked on was **-1. He quit on the very last days of the build. He couldn't take it anymore, and as a mater of fact he called personnel using the phone on the big desk inside **-1 to tell them he quit. All while a SS stood by while he made the call. Then called Dominos to have a pizza delivered to the gate. No joke. You see the big plane company had big problems for years. SS was on duty the whole time **-1 was on the line. Matt used the phone to order a pizza-the first business conducted on that phone.
All big companies seem to have a problem with ethics and professionalism. Some years ago after the time when MD bought out Boeing with Boeing's own money and installed their managers and executives, they got caught in what looked for all us that are not legal beagles, essentially bribing the military officials to take leases on the replacement planes for the air tanker fleet. When the word got out the red faced execs instituted a one or two day shutdown of the entire company to undertake a thrown together ethics program that they hired some outside firm to put on. No one was immune and everybody had to take the course, that is everybody except the execs that perpetrated the crime. I suppose all the defense contractors could be found guilty of this heinous crime at some point in history. On the other hand we as taxpayers just keep letting it happen.
It appears as though the world of commercial pilots does not agree with that statement, and the flight control system issues with the 737 MAX are well-documented. Not least of which was that it was a step too far for an ageing basic design that could never pass airworthiness certification under current regulations if it didn't have "grandfather rights" dating back to the first-ever 737 models from the 1960's. Let's face it they put Sully in a simulator and even he struggled to cope with MCAS when it went rogue on him despite the fact he somewhat knew what to expect. I assume he doesn't fall into the "poorly trained" classification.? https://www.npr.org/2019/06/19/7342...aying-737-max-should-never-have-been-approved The fact that one of the airlines in question was lobbying Boeing for simulator training on that particular aircraft model at the time of the incident is interesting. That, and the fact that Boeing's Chief Techincal Pilot was using his "Jedi Mind Tricks" to convince them that additional training was really not required. The reason being simple - the $200 million hit that Boeing would take in having to pay Southwest Airlines in additional SIM training, because there was a penalty clause of $1m per airframe sold to SW if simulator training (rather than a 30-minutes iPad conversion course) was proved to be required to convert pilots from former 737 models to be certified to fly the MAX version. I'm only amazed that nobody has been hit with criminal charges yet ..........
This all mirrors what my family member told me after he left Boeing. The Walk of Shame is how he described the feeling for senior engineers at Boeing. He knows many who took the retirement offer. He's only 50 or so
My beloved Grandma always said " We live in hope " I miss that classy generation. She'd be 115 now.
Because no plane went down in the US And that's the only reason but remember they have locked people up for much less Free market capitalism only works when companys that make mistakes are allowed to go under from them otherwise your like a spoiled kid that has a bad attitude and no consequences
I'll second that one!
We most certainly do. I don't think this saga has anywhere near run its course yet.
Remember MH370? One of the major net works had a whole panel taking heads, like hoolywood squares. Everyone on the panel was a certified inspector or expert of some sort on large aircraft but were not certified to fly one. Except one person. They all set there **** chatting about the what if's and planes with only two engines and how safe those planes were. Finally last but not least they get around to the old guy setting in the lower corner box. He is asked what his thoughts were. {Well I'm certified on this many aircraft but I mainly flew 747's through my 40 year career, And i can tell you the person setting in the left seat damn well better be able to fly with basic instruments or he shouldn't be in that seat, plus a four engine passenger plane is better than two, I know I have flown a 747 through some real rough conditions. The 747 is a battle wagon compared to anything else} That's best I remember his statement. IIRC he was never invited back for anymore commentary.
I call them Hollyweirds, too weird for words!! As noted Pop worked MacAir, F2H Banshee, F101 Voodoo, F3 Demon, F4 Phantom II(Phantom one was not so good) short stint on F15 Eagle then on to the AV8B Harrier. The ones he did not trust were single engine. Douglas loved smaller fuselage light Single engine military(A4) and still light small engine passenger service equipment Last good unit until the DC9 was the DC6. DC 10 was a strong contender against the L1011 which used Rolls engines that had fuel consumption/maintenance issues, 10s had structural problems that haunted them forever.