Got quite a few 12 volt deep cycle batteries that we use for fence chargers that are getting weak. Watching guys on utube using epsom salt to get them back up to snuff. I don't feel like spending too much time on it but also don't like the price of new batteries. Appreciate any advice, thanks.
I’ve seen them brought back to life with a welder but haven’t tried that. If any are swollen there’s no hope for them as plates have more than likely arced against each other. There are also chargers that are supposed to do the same thing as a welder. One of the guys I follow on YouTube showed the process with a welder. Uncle Tony’s Garage.
So you can high amp charge to 80% then trickle the last 20% if they've been too discharged but if mechanically there's something wrong then you're talking about cutting them open removing the sulfides, renewing the acid and trying o charge but not likely to succeed.
Get a charger with repair/desulfate mode, I've had luck on some batteries with them.
In before Pakistan battery rebuilder guy.
My first thought too. And that's probably the only guy in Pakistan who has actual shoes. Joe H
I've never had any luck with old batteries. I just replace them.
I just watched the video not too long ago. Crazy to think that stuff like that used to happen here too, before regulations and EPA/DEQ etc
There are a couple a reasons I know of why batteries fail. The first and best known is sulfation where the lead compound changes its chemistry and turns red. The new compound does not react the same to the electric process and the battery won't take a charge. This failure mode is the one people focus on when talking about restoring batteries. I've heard lots of explanations to fix this but the most common is to apply high voltage and current to break the molecular bonds and transform the lead sulfate back to its original state. I don't know if it works or not. I've had some battery chargers that say they pulse high voltage but have never known if they worked or not. In my experience, the sulfating happens when lead acid batteries are left discharged over a long period of time. Another possible issue is letting the water levels get low. The other big reason lead acid batteries fail is by vibration. The lead on the plates gets flakey and the flakes basically just fall off the plates into the empty space underneath each cell. The battery loses capacity when that happens. Two big results of this are engines that won't start when a change of season comes around or you have a shorted cell when the lead flakes fill up the empty space to the point of the lead touching the plates above. There is no fix for this except to replace the battery. The prevention for this is maintaining battery hold downs. When I inspect machines, one of the big issues is if the hold downs are in place and tight. When I find batteries loose is when I start looking for other issues as it indicates poor maintenance.
I just had an older one in my service truck that would occasionally not start the truck. Usually it was fine and very energetic, but if you were way out in the woods or in the middle of a parking lot where everyone can see you, then it would not start until messing with it. I guess it was a temperature related crack or something. I don't mess around with batteries. They give trouble, they are gone. They get old, change them before they leave you hanging in a bad spot.
A key indicator on which brands are the worst, take a peek in the dead box of a battery delivery truck. That tells a story right there.
I'm a big believer in OEM when it comes to batteries. AC Delco and Motorcraft have never let me down, even after several winters of 35 below temperatures.
Delco was a great battery at one time but once it started being produced in Taiwan the product was cheapened. Use to be Johnson Controls was the best made, don't know about now.
Anyone have any luck with those red top Optima AGM batteries? Have used them in the past. Worked great in the cold, better than anything else I've used, but never seemed to get near the life out of them that was claimed. Had my first one replaced after year 2 or 3 under warranty and the replacement was on its way out again after year 2.
I have had little good to say about Opima or similar AGM or gel batteries. Very fragile to over or undercharging. Deka batteries are what we use and if you know what they look like you will see many parts houses are also using them under private label. All maintenance free. Exide are OEM on some of our equipment and always ooze acid around the posts, Deka always stay dry. And I mean always/always. Exide usually have water caps which never need water but also fizzing acid mist all over everything.
East Penn make the Cat batteries and Deka too I believe. Batteries can be reconditioned depending on what's wrong with them. There is a place I go to that reconditions batteries. They have some kind of special machine they use and not sure what else they use but I've had great success with reconditioned batteries from them. Worst life I got was about 7 years. Best is about 13 years and still going strong in a diesel tractor. The tractor has a generator and I'm thinking that might be contributing to the exceptionally long life of the reconditioned battery. Standard car batteries are $40, group 31 is $50 and an 8D is $80 exchange. They all come with a 1 year warranty.
Bad batteries that are recycled here are just taken to the old lead mine sites where the lead is recovered with the other materials in those and new batteries made of that. Not seeing good in that where as noted chemical changes in the lead and the plate base materials as well the disposal for the old acids is just nasty.
While some Deka batteries say maintaince free......they ain't. Cut the top sticker and there are re-fill caps. Ed
Um those slots meant for a screwdriver are the refill caps, 6 of them for each cell of 2.11V each.
They should be called lower maintainance not maintainence free.
That battery is from 2016 and I know they have changed design since then. I have a couple of 31s in the shop and will try to remember to check on this tomorrow.
The term lower maintenance doesn't sell, any thought of no work does-maintenance free. When it comes to marketing any phrase relating to work or maintenance care--is a bad selling point. The object for most is to get fatter and dumber and marketing is betting on the buyers ignorance.
Maintainence free is misleading maybe low maintainence? After having a battery violently explode in my 5th wheel it seems they should use a different term. Kind of like the class action suit on small engines with mis leading HP ratings.
I was around a lot of sport rigs race cars and such. The Optimas didnt ever last any time . The worst battery i was ever around maybe they have changed or maybe it was the way they were used.
Thanks for the responses everyone. Watched Uncle Tony utube video and it looks doable. Grabbed a weak battery that I just pulled out of the Volvo loader that would only get up to 11.7 volts when I charged it. Did one 5 minute interval with our little Millar welder starting at 50 Amps moving up to 140amps. Really got boiling. You could see the fumes rising from each cell. I will let it cool down for 15 minutes and do it again. I load tested it before I started and it was at 11 volts down to about 7volts when I hit the switch. Going back now to go again.
I put it on the load tester showing 12.65 volts. Hit the switch and it went down to around 12.5 volts or so. Just about finished second round.
Sorry I meant 11.5 volts when I hit switch.
Did you do anything with the fluid in the battery? There was or used to be stuff you could buy to put in batteries to help with sulfation. I think there was a liquid and/or pellets you put in.
No Welder Dave. I only topped up with distilled water.
Can do that for a time, will have to elevate the acid level to keep that working.
I would definitely be doing that outside, away from the shop. Part of what is off-gassing is hydrogen.
Good advice. I had the garage door open and fan on. Ran one more cycle this morning. Checked the cells with hydrometer and found one cell dead. Should have checked before I started. It’s still doing a lot better than when I started. I use this battery for a fence charger until it’s fully dead.
Deep cycles are a sure way of killing lead/acid batteries. Before I knew better. I replaced four batteries in a portable lifter with regular auto batteries. In a short time, they were toasted. Deep cycle marine (also known as trolling motor) batteries lasted much better.
The other problem with using high voltage and current is that the plates will deform to the point of touching an adjacent plate and shorting out the cell. I've also seen a battery guy melting on a burned out post one time when the battery exploded. He had a face shield on but had to hit the shower in short order and go home wearing only a clean pair of coveralls.
Do you guys remember the old-timers, telling us to add an aspirin tablet to each cell to keep an old battery going longer? I just remembered that.
Coaldust, what's the science behind that? On another note maybe don't buy the maintenance free batteries if you plan on maintaining them. Tried to take the top off one with no success.
Speaking of burned out, lead battery posts: I still have a pair of post molds. I was a hero saving a precious 8D or 4D battery out in the bush. The trick for not getting all explody was to let it sit and stabilize over night. Then, remove the cell caps, duck, engage safety squints and run the torch flame over the top to burn off the hydrogen.
I did a lot of those terminals with my molds. You can't even find where to purchase a set of them anymore.
James, the ones that came before us, believed the acetylsalicylic acid in the tablet combines with the sulfuric acid to form acetic acid. Which, increases the overall specific gravity. Which, normally is 1.260 for a fully charged lead-acid cell.
OK, thanks for this Coaldust.
John, it’s fun to look back on all those crazy things we did.
For an electric fencer, which is a very small load, you don't have to take the cover off the bad cell, you can usually short a few plates through the cap hole, with some pieces of lead or whatever. If you want to take the cover off, a large soldering iron to melt the plastic works, then drain the acid out of that cell and bypass it by connecting the big lead bars. This will give you 10v instead of 8V you'd have with the dead cell dragging the others. Even with a fencer, you'd still want to try to recharge them at 50% or less discharge. Solar is incredible for this use.
Speaking of battery cases, I’ve had good luck fixing leaks & cracks with a polypropylene welding stick & a propane torch.
“Engage safety squints”. That’s the best. I’ve been repeating that all morning!
I've used a pocket comb and a soldering iron a couple of times when the bottom corner of a battery got worn through and it leaked. Took an old battery and goobered the vent plugs to seal tight, put them in the damaged battery and turn it up so the corner was high. Goobered the comb in and put the battery back in the machine. Worked for quite awhile.
I've melted posts twice before and both just happened to be nearly new 8D batteries. I drilled a vertical 3/8 hole in the old terminal as far down as I dared, then a horizontal hole in one side of the terminal so that the new melted lead I poured in would lock into the existing. I cut some 18 gauge metal and made a sleeve to place over the burnt nub...then melted some fishing weights in a cast iron skillet with a torch and poured it into my sleeve to make a new terminal. It worked good both times. I think the new melted lead stayed hot enough to melt into the existing.
I used an acetylene torch. Before I melted in the lead I would take a really course file and clean off and flatten out the top of what was left of the terminal. After clearing the cells of any gas I would put the mold on the post and start by melting the top and then dip and puddle lead into the mold until it was a little higher that the top. The lead would contract some as it was cooling down. I think any method that works is just fine. Nice work d9gdon.
I’ve had a pretty good success rate with the old baking soda distilled water and new sulfuric battery acid! If you want to try it I’ll give you the procedure
Cody114. Sure, sounds good, thanks.
what's the procedure?
John C has nailed the problems very well in post #9. There's a major design difference between regular starter batteries and deep cycle batteries. Regular starter batteries have thin plates because they're designed to produce short sharp bursts of high electrical energy output. Deep cycle batteries have thick plates because they're designed to produce steady levels of far lower electrical energy, over a much longer period of time. I tried the epsom salts trick maybe 50 years ago with dubious results. Shake up the battery, empty the electrolyte out into a bucket, treat the empty battery with epsom salts solution. Empty the epsom salts solution, flush the battery out with clean water (twice). Let the electrolyte settle, then pour the clean electrolyte back into the battery and top up with fresh electrolyte. Some batteries would recover for a while, most didn't improve a great deal. I think totally degraded plates were likely the common problem. Dead cells are usually the result of broken-off plates caused by vibration, or by buildup in the bottom of the cell reaching the plates and shorting them out. Good design batteries have plenty of clearance from the bottom of the plates to the bottom of the cell and they also have the bottom of the plates secured. Plates that just "hang" in the cell, attached by the top only are very prone to vibration breakage. Today, I use a battery desulfator. A unit called "Infinitum". I use it as a stand-alone desulfator, with a simple 4 amp trickle charger. The U.S. military use these, so they must have shown some benefits. I usually never try to recondition a battery that is under about 11V. They're generally well and truly past saving if showing under 11V. But above that voltage, I simply hook up the Infinitum desulfator and leave the battery on charge for a day or two. The dead batteries generally recover well using this unit. At this point I've achieved a battery life of 10 yrs and 4 mths from one battery, and 10 yrs and 9 mths from another. Both were Yuasa batteries and I consider Yuasa batteries to be premium grade batteries. I've got another battery in my tractor crane that I don't know the age of, because it came with the crane, but I'm sure its around 10 yrs old. It still goes well, and I give it the Infinitum "treatment" regularly. There's a guy with a YouTube video who is slamming the Infinitum desulfator. I believe he's probably got other electrical problems that have caused his desulfator to fail. My Infinitum unit works just fine, and has done for around 8 years. The green light on the desulfator only comes on once the battery voltage reaches a satisfactory level. You'll find a lot of websites booming up desulfators. Watch out for the Amazon shill websites who post glowing reviews of desulfators, where the site promptly redirects you to Amazon, to buy one.
Biggest problem I find is the constant parasitic draw. If we get three years out of a set {4} HD31's that's good-normally by that time one will internal short-killing the others. Our trucks just setting two weeks pulls the batteries down from parasitic draw-not to mention all the stuff it's operating like micro waves, tv's, refrigerators and the like. The batteries are raining inside.
For the effort, time and risk I think I'd much rather pull some cash out of my wallet and buy a new battery.
My Infinitum desulfator cost me AU$44 about 2014. I think it was a pretty good investment, it's paid for itself well and truly. I always have about 6 or 8 spare batteries laying around the shop, and I keep them "tuned up" with the desulfator.
Have had great success with the Battery Doctor in Edmonton for reconditioned batteries. Liked the original owners better but still saved a lot of money. They sell new batteries for the lowest price anywhere too. Shortest life I ever got from a reconditioned from there is 7+ years. Others have gone over 10 years and that's with sitting over the winters for the most part.
For a couple of years I got four solar battery chargers that claimed to de-sulfate batteries. I put them on loader backhoes and skid steers. They worked great enough that they walked away.
Y'all are gonna laugh at me, but I have had GREAT luck with the battery tenders from Harbor Freight, both the $15 solar ones, and the $5.99 plug-in ones. I leave one of the solar ones on each battery on my 24 volt trackhoe that I don't use much anymore and it always starts right up even though the alternator is bad. I keep two more to use as needed. Anytime a battery seems bad, I plug it into one of the little .4 amp chargers in the shop and leave it for a week or two. Most batteries eventually recover at least some usefulness. Almost everything I and my biggest customers own has been converted to use series 31 post type, so I just keep a few in rotation. I keep 6 of the little chargers on batteries at all times.
have 372 batteries to take care of, at $115.92 each that's $43,122.24. refer starters 108 comes to $38,664.00 tractor starters 65 comes to $24,100.00 so roughly $105,000 just in those parts, expensive to operate these days.
Years ago, Life magazine had a photo of an oil rig in some desert. Strewn around the rig were many used drill bits. At $10,000 to $150,000 each, oil exploration and production is an expensive endeavor. (Trivia .. Oil Drill bits is what made Howard Hugh's daddy rich.. see Hughes Tool) Yet the small minded folks keep harping on oil company profits. In reality, their profit margins fall far behind soft drink companies. Further: ..."At the gas tank integrated oil companies make about 7 cents per gallon. Meanwhile, the government extracts more than 48 cents, on average, per gallon. That's right: Uncle Sam takes nearly seven times more out of drivers' wallets via taxation than "Big Oil."... (from Forbes website)
What was different about the old 6 volt batteries? You could kill it trying to start, come back in an hour, and it would turn like you just charged it.
I found a website some years ago that is very informative as regards batteries. However, the site covers all types of batteries, and you need to search, to dig out the important information on lead acid batteries. The writer (who is a battery engineer) says that chemicals added to lead-acid batteries do provide a short boost to battery lifespan, but rarely more than a few months. On the desulfators, he doesn't provide an opinion on whether they work or not - but says the desulfators are like medicine, you need to know how much to administer, and under what exact conditions. He does warn that the desulfators produce ripple voltage, and battery manufacturers do set limits on the range of ripple voltage that can be applied to their product. https://batteryuniversity.com/search/results?q=lead+acid
Maybe the huge direct drive starter that takes 800 amps, the battery can only supply that for a short time. Come back later and it is able to supply it once more.
Hope this video is helpful! MyMRO