I am new to this forum but I like what I see. Just wondering if anyone can give me a littler advice. I just bought a old Hein Werner C12 HD to use on my farm. The price was right but it needs a little TLC. The first question I have is what does this unit weigh? I have to hire someone to haul it to my farm from its current location about 130 mile away. The current owner said that he "Thinks its about 26000 lbs", does this sound right? The second question is I need to find a usable hydraulic cylinder for the top of the arm. Its about a 5' stroke and about a 5" bore with about a 2 1/2" ram and 2" pins on each end (I am only guessing because the cylinder is gone, see photo). Anyone have any spec information on this cylinder so I will know what I actually need to ask for. Anyone have a cylinder that would work?
I think it's in the 30-31k range. I believe it's under the wide load width, so that should help. My brother is in the logging business and uses a good hauler, about $100/hr. We have a C-12, under carriage in bad shape, picked it up for parts for an Insley. Will be swapping the boom and cab, but I will have a spare hoe cylinder from the Insey. I believe it's the same size, but it does leak (hence the swapping), so it would need repacking. We've repacked cylinders before, but not this size. If you're interested, let me know. Also let me know if you would repack it, have someone else do it, or I can check on what we could do it for (our labor is cheaper than most). C-12 will be for parts, if you need any other parts let me know. We're in Wolverine.
Rob, You're going to love that machine! They're strong, slow and incredibly durable. I bought one a few years ago and it is awesome! It has a log grapple on it right now, and I have 2 buckets for it as well, but I've so far just used it to toss around logs. I'm still learning how to operate it but am getting the hang of it. They are not the fastest machine out there but they will do the job and do it well. I do have manuals for mine but they're at my parents' place (as is the machine) about a 12 hour drive away so I can't help you right away, but I do have a parts manual that gives part numbers etc. so next time I go there I can look them up if you haven't found anything else yet. I think like pjflyer says it's about 30K lbs... Pj, if you're selling parts, I'd love to buy the 3 spool control valve so I can add an extra function to my machine... Let me know what you want for it if you still have it.
pjflyer, Thanks for the weight info, I think you are about right on with the 30-31K range. I am interested in the cylinder that you have if it is the same and will fit my Hein Werner C12 HD. If it will fit then what $ would you would want for it. I can do the repacking. Send me a direct e-mail at: [email protected] Also, wondering what shape your track pads are on the machine you have, I may be interested in a few. spitzair, I have a part manual but it doesn't give any info on the weight so I guess I will assume the 30-31K is correct. I contacted Volvo and gave the 040135 part number for the cylinder and they said not available. If I can just get a description of the cylinder then I would know for sure what I need to look for. Full extend dimension pin to pin = ______, Full retract dimension pin to pin = ______, Bore size = ______, Ram diameter = ______, Connecting pin size = _____.
Hi, Recentlly sold my HeinWarner C14A after several years of service. I considered mine absolutelly worn out even though most everything would still work(??). Track idlers were slopply and bushings long gone. How the track stayed on is a miracle of driving patience. The turntable motor was so weak it would not rotate up a hill unless load was tucked in as far as possible. then you would have to get a running start to get to top. Pumps and motor were all replaced to no avail. Electrical system hot wired to get started and rechage battery. but always would start unless contacts or brushes in starter bad. It was a good learing experience. maybe. It was drowned twice due to flooding, but was revived each time. the unit may be avaliable for salvage parts if you are intested. Upper cylinder was O/K.
Rob, I will see if I can get somebody to measure mine... I just noticed the boom mount in your picture, it is very different from mine, looks like a few more holes to mount the boom. Any idea what this was for?
Hey Rob, I'll email you in a few days. The machines are in MI and I live in MO. Have property and family up there. Didn't pay attention to the condition of the track shoes, but from the picture, it looks similar, if you want I'll take some pictures when I get back up there. I'll have to check on price for the hoe cylinder. I'm thinking half of what the going rate is. Our intention is to do the boom swap later this spring (end of April), so it would be until then until it's available. I don't know if you're in a hurry or not, but if that would work for you, let me know. The cylinder I would be selling is in operation at the time. Works fine, just weeps a bit. I see you're in the SW corner of the state. I'm not sure what the best way to move it. Guessing at 500lbs, might be cheaper for you to drive up than to ship. From what spitzair commented on. There's a few connection points on the machine. The back two are made for a hoe, just different elevations. The upper connection is made for a non hoe attachment. I can't recall from memory, but the manual we got with it indicated what it was for, but not a large load bearing connection.
I owned a 14(?) that was worn out when I got it. I made my money back with it and it didn't owe me a thing when the engine finally shot parts through the block. I believed it weighed close to 40,000 so I would believe that yours would definatley be in the 30,000 range. Mine was worn out but still ran fairly strong. They are slow especially compared to todays machines but if running good they're strong. How many hrs are on the ole beast?
Speed is not their forte. The Insley in high range does about 2, low range 1. Invested in a service manual, definitely a must. Learned a lot from reading that. The C-12 came with a parts manual, while helpful, no substitute for the service manual. Will have a Detroit 453 available later this spring also.
Hey spitzair, I'll let you know on the control valve. As I was saying on an earlier post, we will be swapping the booms at the end of April beginning of May. The boom from the Hein has a thumb, so we'll need an extra valve on the Insley. If we don't have to use the 3 spool valve, I'll let you know. The Hein will be cannibalized, parted out, and probably scrapped later.
Thanks pj, let me know what parts you'll have for sale! I wouldn't mind stocking up my spare parts collection... You never know... Cheers!
spitzair, If you could supply the measurements of the cylinder then that would be great! I would owe you big time! As far as the extra holes in my boom mount, I was told that they are optional mounts for other attachments
Maddog, you say "slow compared to todays machines", I just sold a old Bantam dragline crane, you want to talk about slow... but it did get the job done. You ask about number of hours on the C12 that I just got, the meter is broken so who knows how many thousands of hours are on it but it starts and runs great so I guess I will just go with it. The new to me C12 will run circles around the old Bantam crane so life is good!
Rob, I've asked my dad to measure the cylinder, I hope to have some dimensions for you in a few days at the latest...
I can get my brother to measure the Insley cylinder. He's currently using it. If spitzair gets the measurement from the C-12, we could see if ours would be a match or not.
spitzair, that would be great if your dad could give the measurements of the cylinder. With that information we will know for sure what is needed. pjflyer, your correct, if your brother could take measurements then we can compare the numbers to what spitzai has and know if we will have any issues. A very big thanks to all of you for the help!
My dad finally sent me the measurements. Retracted length Pin center to Pin center is 69", the outside diameter is 6", the stroke is approximately 55 1/2" (took the measurement between the base and rod end ports) and the pin diameter is 2 inches. Hope this helps and that you'll be digging shortly! Cheers
SPITZAIR There is a guy here in Kelowna that is scrapping a C14. PM me and I will give you his phone number. Doug
Hey All, I'm in need of some track pads that have some life left, LOL Located in Birch Run Mi Used my last spare. Thanks, for any leads,24's or bigger
I believe ours has 24" pads (C-14), probably have a few that are ok. In wolverine. If you're interested, how soon? We need to get the one we have in a place where it can sit until parted out or scrapped. Let me know.
Your going to love it, simple, basic and slow but cutting edge in the 60's. The pin and tumbler undercarriage is very rebuildable,(with a bit of paitence and a good welder) My father owned quite a few of these as well as larger ones, I cut my eye teeth fixing them, even went to the factory for service training in the 70's. The stick cylinder is pretty basic, it was probably removed to reweld the ram eye,a common break point(spent many a evening welding these back on). Any help I can give I will.
judge, I sent you an email a few days ago, hope you got it. If not, let me know, I can give you some info on what we have. The machine we have is a C-12, I tried to edit my post, but this thread was having issues.
pjflyer, are you parting the C12 out? If so I'd be interested in the 3 spool control valve, so I can put a thumb on mine...
yes parting out, but I'm not sure it has a 3 spool valve on it. I think there are just 2 spool valves. With the primary/ secondary construction of the double bank, I don't know if you can use just one spool. I can check for sure, but I won't be up where the machine is until the end of the month. Let me know if you're still interested.
PJ, yes, I am very interested. I looked into the valve off of a C14 as 72Hayes suggested, but unfortunately it's not going to work... As far as I know all C12HDs have a single spool valve for the swing, a dual spool valve for one track and I think the boom, and a 3 spool for the other track and the stick and bucket... What I am hoping to do is to replace the dual spool valve with your 3 spool valve giving me the extra function. I am in no hurry at all so whenever you get to it is fine. I really appreciate it
I'll take a closer look at it when I get up there. If it's got one, I can let you have it.
Thanks PJ, that would be awesome!
I have a C12 HD, I am looking for good tracks. Like everyone says, Slow as molasses, but a great machine for around the farm. Does anyone know if the tracks from a C12 mechanical will work on my hydro? The mechanicals pads are bigger/ heavier all the way around, but the drive wheels look identical. Thanks, Mike.
Our Hein does have the triple valve. However the boom is on it and we need it until we get the hoe arm off. I'm not sure if we'll get to it this fall or not with all of the other projects we have to finish. If you're still interested I'll let you know when it's available and give you first dibs.
No worries about the timing, I'm in absolutely no hurry but will gladly take it when you do get around to it! Cheers!
pjflyer, I am interested in some of your track pads also if they are in decent shape. Some of mine are pulling apart at the pins. Any ideas where to find some rollers/ idlers? Thanks, Mike
Just wanted to give a update. I was finally able to get the unit home and this past weekend was able to mount the used cylinder and start digging. As everyone knows it is a SLOW old machine but it does get the job done. One new issue that I have found is the pivot wont always swing. Seems that if I am on a incline then it has issue. I wonder if its due to low fluid in the reservoir tank? It looks like there is around 25 gal in the tank that could hold as much as 100 gal. Anyone have any other ideas?
Rob, On the engine side of the reservoir tank, about 6-8 inches down from the top are two threaded plugs. Bottom plug is minimum height & top is full. Mine swings fine as long as I have it revved up. Anything below half throttle on a grade & I don't seem to get full use of the hydraulics. Hope this helps you, Mike
Do not run with low hydraulic oil level. 25 gallons is not near enough. The pump running swing motor will easy pull air and gall itself. Even with full oil and new motors the swing function is inadequate. Same issue with my C-14A.
Not a good day with the old Hein Werner C12. Lost all drive to tracks on on side. The hydraulic motor is running but no movement out of the gearbox to the chain drive to the tracks. Looks like a ton of work to remove the gearbox just to see whats broken. Maybe its time to scrap the old beast? Anyone need parts (engine, cylinders, pumps...)
Don't give up on it quite yet... I don't know for sure but I think there may be a driveline disconnect in there... There is a lever under the seat with a cable that goes through the swing pivot on mine, I don't know what exactly it is for as it's seized solid on mine, but it could be a disconnect. Unfortunately my machine and manuals are a 12 hour drive away so I can't go have a quick peek... Might be worth looking into...
The lever under the seat is a brake that can be set the same as a parking brake in a truck. As far as I know, its not a disconnect but I will take a look and see if there is more to the story... Thanks for the advise.
Ok, wasn't sure as mine is seized up and my machine works great in the position it got seized in... Hope it's an easy fix, especially after all the work you've recently put into it!
Dang!! I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble with it. If you find it's the drive motor, mine is up for grabs. I'll be up there next week. Which side? The one we have leaked some fluid while moving it on the left side, but since it's parts I didn't investigate to see if it was a loose line or a leak in the motor.
pjflyer, The dive motor isn't the issue. Its the gearbox after the hydraulic drive motor. I got it all pulled out and apart this past week and find that the big bearing at the output shaft of the gearbox is junk and this allows the shaft to pull away from the other internal gear that drives it. If I can replace that bearing then put the whole gearbox back together and back under the excavator then I will be back in business. Man is that gearbox heavy, not sure how I am going to get it back installed but I will figure something out. Stay tuned at a latter date for the outcome. I could just scrap out the whole excavator and end up with more cash in pocket that what I have in it but I just cant do it...
Rob I've been reading your post with great interest. I picked up a C 14 A last year and had the swing gear box do the same thing about 1 month ago. I had to get a custom made seal carrier for the bottom. I will be check the fluid level in my drive cases now that for sure.
Hi everyone I'm looking tobuy a c12 from a neighbor. Could yall give me a price range for an average machine? I really have no idea what one is worth. Also if i buy it i may need to rebuild or replace drive pumps on both sides he says they started a small leak after he topped of the fluids. Any suggestions on which i should do? Thanks
Hello and welcome to the forums Willywoods! I bought my machine 4 years ago, at the time it had sat for a good number of years after the owner had passed away. His wife didn't know if it ran, and if it did if there were any problems with it. With this in mind I offered her $3000 for it and she agreed. I was lucky and my machine turned out to be pretty much flawless! I guess what I'm getting at here is that if you don't know the condition of your machine, start at scrap value. As for the steering pumps, are you referring to the pumps driven by the engine or the drive motors on the undercarriage? If it is the pumps up at the engine, they are Commercial shearing brand pumps and parts should be available from what I inderstand, though I've never had to order any myself yet... The drive motors I couldn't tell you... All in all these are very simple yet robust machines that can still put in an honest day's work and if taken care of last a long time into the future!
Hi Willywoods, I'm not an expert by any means, we've had our Insley for 3 years now and have been learning ever since. We picked up a C-12 for scrap value, the undercarriage was shot, but it was close and we use it for parts. It would be helpful if you had someone to go with you that knows a bit about them. Without seeing in action, it's hard to put a price tag on it, anywhere from scrap value (I think about 15 tons) to $6k imho. As Spitzair mentioned, find out if it's the drive motors or the pump. Either way, if you're not good at wrenching and can work on it yourself, you could be spending a lot more money on a mechanic than it would be worth. On the Insley we've had to rebuild the drive tumblers, repin the track, repack some hydraulic cylinders, work on the brakes, and others I can't remember. It's getting to be a pretty good machine, but we did it all ourselves. All of this on a machine that worked when we got it. Old machines can be affordable and dependable, but it usually takes some work to get them there.
Hello Willywoods, I will say that what spitzair and pjflyer are spot on with there advise. I picked up my C12 from a guy that was going to scrap it. Basically I got it for what he could get for scrap price. I got it home and then put a little time a money into it and as of now its a usable unit. Its not new and its slow but for the minimal money I have in it I can say that I am happy. Its not a unit that a guy would want to try to make a living with and run it everyday on a job-site but for my occasional use on the farm it is just fine. The repairs that I have had to do weren't fast or easy but with some patience and a few cases of beer I have been able to get the old beast into a running usable unit. Think of it the same as looking for a new or used truck, you want to spend $40000 on a new truck that is all good to go and not have to deal with any issues, or can you live with a 15 year old $4000 truck with 150K miles that may need a little weekend work to keep it on the road. I would love to go out and get a new $300000 excavator but my OLD $3000 C12 will do all that I need it to do, I just have to have the tool box and beer cooler on standby... You mention above that you may need to rebuild or replace drive pumps on both sides because he says they started a small leak after he topped of the fluids. I would look at hoses first before I jumped to any conclusions of the pumps having issue. If the pumps are still working I would say they are OK? lets face it, even if it is the pumps that are leaking, sometimes its easier to just add fluid as needed rather than time and money on expensive parts? Good luck and show us some photos when you can. Don't hesitate to ask us any questions, we are hear to help.
Thanks guys for the advice. I'll keep you posted. I have to work on the purchase price a bit. He's at the top of your pricing range but i believe i can talk him down. He works kind of slow so it may take me a few days. Thanks again. And I'll post pics soon.
c12 hien werner the hien werners are built with cast iron piston rings in cylinders when the fail you get iron there out system ps have books on this machine field service on these for years a lot years ago
C14b Hello, I recently purchased a C14B, come to find out the last guy that rebuilt the swing gear box never put oil in it. I have it apart, sandblasted, and ready for new bearings and seals...only problem is I can't reference and part numbers I have from the manual....anyone know where I can get the bearing and seal numbers/parts? Also have a broken bearing cap on bottom. I have been working on this for over a week and can't find any parts. I plan to sandblast this entire machine and repaint this summer. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Here are some pics of the dana swing gear box. Model 770
That looks like the same swing box that was in mine. The most difficult thing to get was the seal carrier on the bottom. I had just enough piece and took it to a machine shop and they built one for me. I got most of the bearings from berry bearing. I will look for the receipts to see if I can get you the bearing numbers and seal that I used.
I heard that, after being traded around a few times, what was once Hein Werner has been absorbed by Volvo if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps they may be able to help you...
Luke.k, I had to rebuild one of my drive gearboxs this last winter from my C12. I called Volvo and was told "sorry, no help". I was able to have a local bearing service match what I needed. I just took what I had in hand and also gave the dimensions (ID,OD,thickness) and he was able to offer a functional match. The big bearing actually ended up being a very common big truck wheel bearing. The seals were a littler more difficult to find and what I ended up with was a littler narrower but it still fit and worked. At least you dont have anything broken like the casting. I had to make a whole new cap for the seal to set in. Good thing I have a full machine shop available... Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you.
Actually.....I that piece is broken into about 6 pieces on mine. I have enough parts to have it machined I believe, but if I had the dimensions it would be a heck of a lot easier. My problem is I ended up cutting most the bearings and races because of the interior condition of the gearbox. So I can't get numbers of most. I was thinking of heading to my local bearing house with everything today and seeing what they can figure out. I also how the manual for the c14 if anyone needs one. Viper, that would be awesome. Please give me a call if you find them. I appreciate all the help! Feel free to give me a call if any of you have information for me. Thanks, Luke 269-674-9151
Finally! Just an update... Note the welding on the cast iron cover plate. That's what happens when you try to force things to fit. I have it back together and it's going back on tomorrow. I will also be posting all the seal and bearing numbers for the next guy. Big thanks to all of you that helped!
hey I am looking for a dipper boom cylinder for my Hein Werner c12hd if anyone could tell me where to find
hein werner c-12 hd I just bought one .its been sitting outside for about 3 years . we got it running and it tracked out and loaded under its own power . might be a good one to fix up and use on the farm . make a good parts unit or fixer upper !! whats it worth??
I have around $3000 in mine but I dont know if thats what I would say its worth. If I was to try and sell it then I guess I would satr at what I have in it and then hope for the best. Of coarse its worth something in scrap price if I ever found that I had to make it go away...
Welcome to the forums Iron Forest! When I bought mine I paid $3000 for it, it came with 2 buckets and a log grapple attachment. When I bought it I had no idea if it ran or not so I was a little nervous but thankfully it's been great, runs well with no issues. Other than replace some rotton hydraulic lines And change the fuel filters it's needed nothing else so far. Being that yours runs and moves I'd say yours is probably worth at least $3000 as well, I guess it all depends what shape the rest of it is in as well... What engine does it have? They came with the 4-53 Detroits, or you could also get a Cummins C-140, a Perkins 6-354 or a Chrysler Industrial H-318 V8 gas engine for it. if you have some pictures to post we would all love to see 'em!
c-12 hd thanks for the info. as for the it has a4-53 Detroit !! I will see what I can do about some pictures..
Howdy everyone, I just picked up an Hein Werner C12HD. I got it to dig out a couple ponds I have that are real shallow. Today it just acted like it was running out of fuel and just died. The previous owner put a electric fuel pump on it but I can hear it running. It has 2 fuel filters on it so I started there. Pulled off the first filter right after the fuel tank. It had this tar / sludge in the canister and the filter didn't look the greatest. I cleaned it and installed new filter, filled the canister with fuel and put it back on. Second filter wasn't as bad. Put in new filter and filled canister with fuel and installed it. I didn't see any way to prime the system. So I just tried to start it up. It ran for about 10 seconds and died. Tried to start again it ran for about a min and died. Thought I had it... Now it won't start.. I'm guessing I have air in the system?? Is so how do you get it out?? Or if anyone has an idea what to check for and how to check it would be appreciated. I'm not real familiar with diesel engines. Another note, previous owner said he would add sulfur additives, Marvel Mystery Oil and Power Service to the fuel.
Sure sounds like air in the system to me. I had my filters plug up with Algae some time ago, a new set of filters fixed the problem. Seeing as you habe an electric fuel pump on there you could use it to purge all the air out of your system. Also, make sure none of the fuel lines are blocked with the same crud you found in the filters.
Spitzair I assume that just running the electric fuel pump dry won't hurt it ?? I was running it and I had a plug out of the second filter waiting for fuel to start coming out but never happened. Granted I didn't let it run a long time either. Is there a way to check and see if the pump is pulling fuel?? Hopefully I did the pictures right and they show up.
I'm not very knowledgeable on Detroit Diesels, hopefully someone like Junkyard, thepumpguysc or brodiesel will see this thread and chime in. As far as I know the lower filter is a low pressure filter, from there it goes to another fuel pump and then through the upper high pressure filter, so perhaps those pumps are not letting the fuel get pushed through by the electric pump... Then again looking at your picture the electric fuel pump appears to be bypassing the low pressure engine driven pump. You could try to slightly pressurize the fuel tank with 1 or 2 psi of compressed air and try to push the fuel through this way.
One thing to check is the emergency engine stop. Normally there is a cable hooked up to it and pulled from the cab. I've seen them with the cable missing. Once pulled it must be manually reset at the valve, pushing the cable in doesn't reset it. It is basically a butterfly valve in the air intake. It spring loads open and has a catch to hold it there. Once tripped and depending on how freely it shuts, it restricts air flow and the engine will either start and not run or run for a short time. I've been fooled by this before.
Take the fuel line off at the yellow shut off valve,if fuel doesn't run out blow back thru the hose. Bob
Spitzair I did try to pressurize the tank but realized there is a vent on it and it goes up into a channel in the back cover. Not sure how to get to it yet but that might be an option. Yes I still have the cable, it moves very freely. It is right behind my left shoulder. The previous owner told me to always pull that before turning the key off so thats what I have been doing. I am going to look at that also. What Bluox said to try I kind of did that but in a different manner. What I did was when I had the filter off I opened that yellow valve to see if fuel would come out of the housing, It never did. I wasnt sure if there was a different passage it might take. So I am also going to take that off at the valve and check it again. Thanks for all the suggestions !!! I will let ya know how it goes..
Pondsludge, welcome. I may be wrong but you may want to verify that the pickup tube in your tank is ok. I had a John Deere diesel mower a few years ago that would stop running at half a tank. I found out the pickup tube inside the tank had broken off. Also, My old HD12 started doing the same thing as yours a couple years ago. However I don't have a electric pump on mine. Mine has the original mechanical pump. I found out that my mechanical pump had an internal o-ring around the drive shaft that disintegrated. I fixed it with a new .10 cent o-ring. You may wan to take a look at that as an option and forget the electric pump?
Sounds like this weekend I am going to start from scratch. Going to start at fuel tank and head toward the filters checking everything. Thanks everyone for all the ideas. Will update later...
Ok, I'm back up and going. Had to flush the fuel tank and all the lines after that, Had that black tar crap in the tank. Im assuming the the previous owner was dumping something in the tank and it just wasn't mixing in with the fuel. Would like to just say thanks to everyone for helping out. Rick
Hey Pondsludge, glad to hear you got her running again That's the problem with using too many additives all at once... you never know how they will react with one another. Most are only designed to be mixed with pure diesel. Quick question concerning your above post... you mention using the emergency stop to shut the motor down normally? If this is what you really mean I wouldn't do it this way, there should be a lever right next to where the throttle linkage goes into the motor - this is the shutdown lever that should be used for normal shutdowns. Normally there is a cable similar to the one on the e-stop that is connected to this lever and routed to the cab for easy shutdown.
Ronsii, I will take a check at the cable routing. I'm not really sure what I am pulling when I shut the engine down. There is no cable by the throttle. The cable or handle I am pulling is right behind my left shoulder. I will take a picture also next weekend when I'm out there again. Now can you explain to me what all the parts of the shovel are. Lol the stick?? And the other parts of the boom?? I have more questions but not sure how to ask because I don't know the proper terms / words of those parts. Is there a page I can look at?? Thanks, Rick
Oh, ok if your are pulling the e-stop you will have to reset it (at the blower housing)each time before you start the motor, if it is the regular kill lever then no reset just release the cable and the lever will have springloaded back to normal. So if you're not resetting anything then you are using the correct way to shut down the engine.
here is a pic.. I know not the same machine but I was in a hurry The dipper-stick is usually referred to as the stick. Oh, I just noticed the cylinders are labeled wrong.... so much for using pics found on the internet.
Ok, here is a better pic with labels of the major parts.
Glad to hear you got it sorted out. There should be 2 handles over your left shoulder, the one you are using is most probably the normal shutdown and there should also be an emergency shutdown nearby, it should be clearly marked.
I just remembered I had this... Hopefully it's somewhat useful to all you fellow C12HD owners...
hey all ..... i have a hein-warner c-12 hd for sale . its definately not the prettiest but its mostly complete and runs/drives/operates . it has a detroit 453 . asking scrap price .. which means you pay me and mess with it at your place . im not messing with it , it hasnt been ran in over a year - $4000 as is or $3000 without motor . may be able to deliver . located in watertown , ny . call/text 315-222-3029
more pics
more pics
Sure wish you were closer, that thing looks nice and straight.
OHH WOW!! thanks for the pics and diagrams!!! Sorry been a we bit busy. I finally looked at the handle and realized that there is a cable with no handle below the one I am pulling to shut down the engine. So my guess is that the one with no handle on it is the emergency shut down and the one above is shut off... Neither one are labeled. The person I bought this from told me it uses 10w40 hydraulic fluid. Ok so is this just 10w40 oil being used as hydraulic oil?? I need to add some to it but not sure what to put in it. Learning curves.. Gotta love them .
Rob, Does your's have the brake drum on top. I'm looking for any parts breakout on top mounted drum brake as I've got to repair but can figure out how to remove the square top piece. I think the previous owner must have welded it to the shaft. The center is filled in with what appears to be weld.
Actually a round piece with SQUARE bolt hole pattern. My mistake.
Markmox, I will have to look in my manual that I have and see if there is any diagrams that would help. I will get back with you ASAP.
OK I just have to put this out there. My old HD-12 has been sitting behind the barn for over 3 years without being started. Weeds growing up all around it and a bees nest in the cab. I had a little job for it on the farm this weekend. Put a fresh battery in it, gave it 2 seconds of ether to the air cleaner, hit the start button and the old girl fire right over and ran like new. Just gota love the old 453 Detroits!
Yes! Just watch out for them to run away, be ready to jump out and hit decomp.!
Hello all, I am new to this forum. I only joined because you all are talking about the C12HD and I cannot find specifics anywhere. My dad bought one last year down around you Rob in Edwardsburg, MI and brought it up to South Haven MI. This girl has been very well used. Needs lots of little things. But like you say the 4-53 DD runs like day one! I want to replace the return filter backflow indicator gauges as they are all warn out. The ones on the excavator currently are USGauge 26840-1 and read from -30 to 100. They only say VAC. and PRESS, no indication if mmHg, PSI of Bar. The filters are cartridge type. Does any one know what range a backflow indicator gauge for the C12HD should be? or what the max back pressure should be? I have looked in my service manual and all over the web and only found reference to change when indicated by the gauge. and depending on the equipment Bar, PSI or mmHg would be possibilities.
Welcome to the forum Jason! I do have manuals but won’t be able to get to them for another 10 days but when I do I’ll take a look if there’s any pressure figures in there.
Jason, I also have a set of manuals and I will take a look to see if any gauge info is available. I will be out of town till Monday so it may be a few days before I can get you a reply.
Thanks Spitzair and Rob, I look forward to hearing back. Jason ;-)
Jason, I regret that I have no information to help you. My manual has no mention of any gauge for the filter backflow. And Looking at my machine it doesn't have one installed. I assume it would be located at the filter block near the top of the tank? Wish I could help but I have nothing.
Hi Jason, my manuals don’t say anything about any filters either. My filters do have ports on the head but they’ve been plugged... sorry I can’t be of more help either. I did fire up my baby for the first time in a few years today, it fired up well and ran like a champ!
Jason, I guess when in doubt then change the filters? Wish I could help more but I have no other info.
Well, here we are in 2024 and I am now going to try and resurrect this thread. I'm looking at a Hein c12hd track hoe (though the manual says backhoe) and I'm wondering if anyone knows some reasons why one-track tracks slower than the other. The levers are a little off from each other and the neutral detent seems to be missing, if you will. The engine fires right up and sounds good. I'll try to upload the vid of it running. Of course, after I got it running and started to raise the boom, a hydraulic line blew.
I'm trying to find out how to read the info plate. I know it's a c12hd but not sure the year or exact type of engine. Engine is stamped with GM diesel and it is a 4 cylinder. Here's some pics if I can get it to work.
Can you give me some pointers on why the left track on a Hein-Werner c12hd tracks slower than the right? Could it be just a simple dirty spool problem or is the hydraulic motor going out?
Hello Mission Man! The engine in your machine will be a Detroit 4-53 2 stroke diesel. They are bullet proof engines and parts should still be available. As for the left track being slower than the right there are several possibilities. Most likely the hydraulic swivel assembly from the upper unit to the lower has an internal leak. The second possible culprit could be the pump that supplies the left track is putting out less flow than the pump that supplies the right track. On your machine you’ll either have a single 3 section pump mounted directly to the bell housing of the engine, otherwise there will be a Funk brand drive unit to which they mounted 3 separate single section pumps. On the 3 section pump one section supplies the left track, one section the right track and the 3rd section is dedicated to the swing. With the separate pumps the idea is the same, ie. one pump supplies the left track, another the right track and the third the swing. You could swap the outputs from the pumps to see if the problem moves to the other track… if it does the pump is the culprit, if not then most likely the swivel. A third culprit could be the travel motor itself. What I would do to narrow it down is to first swap the outputs from the pumps as they will be the easiest to access. If the problem stays on the same side, next I would swap drive motor hoses down underneath the machine and see if the problem moves to the other side. If it does, your swivel will be the culprit, if not then it’ll be the track motor. Also, It’s entirely possible that the brake on the left side final drive is dragging causing that side to turn slower. Hope that helps.
Thanks. Didn't even think about the brake. I'll check into the pump swap which is three pumps off the bell housing. Did the pics happen to load up? Oh, and you say the engine is two stroke? That's a new one on me. You don't need to do anything special with the fuel like you do with a gasoline two stroke do you?
I did see 2 pictures of your serial number tag, did you try to post other ones as well? As for the 2 stroke diesel, they were a very common engine back in the day, you’ll find them in trucks, boats, generators, sawmills, railroad equipment, construction equipment, basically you name it, chances are somebody used a Detroit Diesel to power it. These engines are very durable, make lots of noise, smoke and leak oil but you just can’t kill one. You don’t have to do anything to the fuel other than to dump it into your fuel tank and keeping it clean. It differs in a few ways from a gasoline 2 stroke engine in a few ways. The engine has an oil system just like any 4 stroke engine, so it has an oil pan, oil pump, filter(s) etc. It has one injector per cylinder that’s driven off the camshaft. A low pressure fuel pump draws the fuel from your tank and sends it through a filter to the high pressure fuel pump which then feeds if to the injectors in the cylinder head. There’s also a return line that sends excess fuel back to the tank. One thing you need to be careful of with these engines is their reputation to “run away”. If the engine has been sitting a while the injector rack can get stuck so that there is no control over how much fuel the injector injects into the cylinder. Usually they stick in the wide open position and when you start the engine with a stuck rack the injector gives it full fuel and it revs uncontrollably with usually catastrophic results. There is a flapper valve installed on the air intake before the blower (more on that in a moment) to enable you to shut the engine down in the event of a runaway. This flapper valve is actuated by the emergency shutdown located on the back wall of your operator cab. Only use this to shut the engine down in an emergency as the flapper valve has to be reset after this and you run the risk of blowing the oil seals in the blower. Right, the blower. Since this is a 2 stroke engine we need a way to get air into the cylinder at a somewhat higher pressure than atmospheric. On a gasoline 2 stroke engine such as in your chainsaw or snowmobile this is done by the crankcase itself. On these Detroits you find a blower, also known as a roots blower or supercharger, depending on who you ask, but they’re the same thing… what this blower does is provide a way for the engine to draw air in through the intake and then force it into the cylinder. There are no intake valves on this engine, instead there are intake ports around the bottom wall of the cylinder that open up when the piston gets far enough down in its stroke. At about the same time the exhaust valves (either 2 or 4 depending on the engine) open up and the blower forces fresh air into the cylinder and the exhaust gases out through the exhaust valves. Once the piston travels North again it covers the intake ports and the exhaust valves close. The piston keeps coming up compressing the air just like in a normal diesel engine. At just before TDC the injector sprays in some fuel, the fuel ignites and the piston, now past TDC gets forced down again. Once the intake ports get uncovered on the piston’s trip to BDC the cycle repeats. Hope this all makes sense. When these machines were in production they were offered with a Chrysler industrial V8 gas engine, a Perkins diesel, a Cummins diesel and the Detroit which was by far the most popular. I also found this manual I posted some years ago, hope it may be of use to you!
I wonder if it's the same old POS that I started off with. My machine had no swing brakes and one track was always super slow. It was a wore out rag back in the early 90's. The bucket shims, at that time, had about an inch of open slop. But, it got me started and loaded gravel from my pit.
Thanks for the explanation on the engine. I've got to look for the emergency cut off cable on this one. The way it works right now is when you pull the throttle all the way back, it shuts off. The swing cable doesn't seem to be hooked to a handle so I'm not sure if it even works. So far, I have had to give it a little shot of either to start it the first time but after that she fires right up. Will be going to get it Sat. I think it will work pretty good for knocking some trees down and cleaning up the fence row here on the farm. I'll try to get some more photos of it. I have a video, but it ran kinda long and is too big for the forum. Thanks again.
You'll have to forgive my ignorance on "wore out rag" and the "bucket shims" I have not been around the maintenance end of track-hoes. I will say that the track levers are not lined up and easily fall out of neutral. If you are not careful making sure they are in neutral when starting the unit, it will take of in one direction or the other. This has me thinking that it may be a synchronizing problem, but as I said, I'm new to the maintenance end on track-hoes. If I get a chance this weekend, I will try swapping the pump hoses to see if the problem switches side. Thanks for every one's input.
Floppy travel levers that don't stay in nuetral? Always tracks in a circle? If it has no swing braking then it sounds like the unit I used to own. I cut my teeth on that thing but I certainly do not miss it. Nice to know it's still in working condition. Schaffer Enterprises in Wolf Lake, IL used to have several parts machines, but this was many years ago.
The travel levers have factory detents in them so that they stay in the travel position you put them in, I guess they did this because of how slow these things travel maybe? I dunno... Sure makes it fun to side load on a lowbed if you're not used to it like I was when I first got mine... One day my son was playing in the cab moving levers around like little kids do and left one in the travel position. On my machine the electrical harness is shot so the previous owner rigged a starter button up right at the starter. So I go to start it and it immediately started crawling away once the engine started. Luckily it doesn't move very fast and the engine was just at idle anyways so I was able to get it stopped before anything bad happened...
So, there it is. Not the prettiest digger on the block. I've got a leak in the hydraulic cooler radiator. I'll need to get that fixed before I can do any work with it.
Looks like a not bad little machine! Tinwork still looks fairly straight too! One thing I noticed is the bucket cylinder looks way too long, you’ll have to be careful that you don’t wreck your bucket linkage, looks like it got bent a bit already… be sure to tie those bucket cylinder hydraulic lines up a bit too if you’re going to clear trees, they snag really easy and will pull those steel hydraulic lines on the top of your boom and break ‘em off… ask me how I know haha! If you take care of the old girl she’ll give you many years of service, I’ve had mine 14 years now and other than plugged fuel filters and the aforementioned snagging of the bucket hydraulic lines causing a good leak, which was totally my fault, it’s never given me a lick of trouble.
Hi Mission Man, Just back in action, sorry I didn't get back sooner. That is a pretty sweet machine you have there. As long as the function of the hoist and stick seem fine, should drag the machine on the ground with stick only and lift the side with hoist only (good lifting power/speed) Remember, gear pumps, constant flow, each function should load up the engine (smoke) If one of those seem VERY slow or unable to function, I would say pump (a slow track is a symptom). First thing is to pull and split the hydraulic filters, look for metal/brass/seal/rubber trash. When looking for a mis-tracking problem I always find out if it is under load or not. Paint mark 1 pad on each side, lift each side one at a time and count the revolutions per minute. If the speeds are very different side to side (under no load), I would look at track tension first (pin and tumbler drives are notorious), second is drain the oil from the slow final drive case and look for problems (trash) If the speeds are close when in the air (means good flow) I would totally agree with spitzair to swap the outputs from the 2 big pumps (the smaller one on the top is slew (swing). if the problem changes it is likely the pump. (flow reduced under load) If the problem doesn't move to the other track, a swivel is easy to reseal, or the drive motor has failed, harder to rebuild. Good luck, and I hope I have helped. P.S. I have days worth of stories about welding up and fish plating those sticks. Noticed the usual suspects on your stick. Never repaired a boom eye on a 12 though.
I found a picture of the C12HD that I used to own and got my start with. Looks like the same one Mission Man has purchased. It's slow enough to be safe to learn on before you get into modern, fast machines that can get you killed faster than you can think. The burn spot behind the door and angle cut on the door glass verify it's the same one. I think that I sold it to a guy from Hazel, KY back around '95 or so. Heard that he dropped a newer 4-53 into it.
So, the radiator repair guys tell me that the hydraulic oil cooler is to rotted to repair. I found the hole and sealed it up with some solder, but I would like to replace it if anyone happens to have and old one lying around somewhere. Treemuncher, sure does look a lot like the one I have. The break, or missing part of plexiglass on the door sure seems the same. The black spot behind the door is a hole someone torched into it, not sure why. The left-hand stick seems to be backwards. I say this cause the grease zert, (or alimight) is facing forward and is really difficult to get to. The newer engine would explain the lack of the pre fuel filter. This rig only has one canister style fuel filter on it. spitzair , I'll take a closer look at the cylinder and linkage. I have been looking at how to strap those lines up. That was one of the first things I figured I'd need to get done after oil change. Oh, I did notice that one bottom idler roller is in dire need of new bearings too.
The bucket cylinder is definitely wonky. The bucket is curled as far the cylinder allows and the cylinder is against the stick but only extended about 1/4 of its travel. It would very easy to bend the cylinder curling the bucket. Need to either get a shorter cylinder or move the mount on the stick up higher. The cylinder should fully extend before it hit the stick. The other problem with the long cylinder is you wouldn't be able to roll the bucket back enough. Maybe a different bucket has been adapted and the linkage is way different?? I can see that cylinder getting bent in 10 minutes or less. Look at the cylinder in Treemunchers post for comparison. It's extended more and the bucket is flat on the ground. It's also quite aways away from the stick allowing the bucket to curl without the cylinder contacting the stick. The cylinder looks shorter.
After taking a closer look at the pictures I posted I do see exactly what everyone is saying about the bucket cylinder. Looks like if I was to move the linkage to the other hole on the bucket, that might take care of the issue. Would there be any agreements on that? The first picture is where I think the emergency cut off cable should be attached. This engine seems to only have the throttle and when you pull that all the way back, the engine shuts down. Could anyone verify my idea? The next 2 pictures is where I think the swing brake cable is supposed to be hooked to. There is no cable hooked to it. Am I right here?
You need to make your pics. smaller. Hard to tell exactly what you're looking at with blown up zoomed in pics. The other holes in he bucket will make very little difference. I wonder if the linkage from the stick to the cylinder or even the bucket has been changed from factory? I can't see it working the way it is. I can see a ruined cylinder though. The way it's set up wouldn't give the best bucket force either. Something is really wonky but not being there in person it's hard to tell the easiest way to fix it.
When I owned it, it NEVER had a swing brake! You had to compensate with hyd pressure and always work it on a level surface. Otherwise, it was full time on the swing pressure to keep from drifting away from target at free swing speed. It was useless on hilly terrain and of course, it likes to travel in circles with the slow track.
So that bucket cylinder is 54" long from eye to eye when closed up. Would anyone know what length the cylinder should be?
Something is really wonky with the bucket cylinder, linkage and the bucket. It looks like someone adapted a different cylinder. Look how the hyd. line is bent to barely allow enough room to attach the hose. Look at Treemunchers pic. See how much higher up the cylinder is mounted on the stick and also how far away from the stick it is where it connects to the linkage for the bucket. It allows the bucket to curl quite a bit more. Could the stick on your machine have been extended? With the bucket fully curled the cylinder should be fully extended without hitting the stick. The linkage and bucket could be wrong or changed too. Your bucket should be able to curl more than it is but the way it's set up the cylinder would hit the stick regardless what cylinder is on it. The way the bucket mounts are located makes a big difference too. If the lower bucket linkage stuck out further from the bucket would allow for more curl before the cylinder hit the stick. The linkage the cylinder connects to could could have a bend in it too (as could the linkage from there to the bucket) to let the bucket curl more. You also have very little bucket roll back. Look at more modern excavators and backhoes and you'll get a better idea how everything is supposed to work together.
Hey treemuncher, would you happen to have any idea what is wrong with the swing break? If I'm following the parts breakdown correctly, it looks like the swing gear box would need to be removed and flipped over in order to get to the swing breaking system. Am I looking at all that correctly? Oh Welder Dave, I haven't figured out how to make the pics smaller. I'm assuming you mean in amount of data they use up. Took me a long time just to get them from the phone to the computer to put them on here. All this technology seems to assume that everyone knows exactly how to use. I don't. But on another note, I have been looking at the curl, the length of cylinder, etc. and do agree that something is not right. I'd like to find a narrower bucket to use for field tile digging, foundation digging, etc. but I don't think that would really fix all the problems. I feel like the cylinder is just to long. I maybe wrong. but....
I take the pics. from my phone and use my phone to reply. Just have to click on attach files in the bottom left and it will go to your pic. gallery.
I'll try it from my phone this time. Could I get any advice on which oil cooler would be best? I underlined the size of the one that would fit, but is just a little smaller than the one I'm replacing. I can modify the frame to take the next one below. It's just a little thicker but more to the right size dimensions.
You need to know how many GPM your machine has. I'd guess more than 30.
Well all, it's been a while since I've responded. Any of you gentlemen still reading posts? I've got the oil cooler installed and have been using the old girl for taking out some trees for my sisters' driveway. They call it, "the dinosaur in the woods." Being careful not to roll the bucket up to far but sure would be nice to stretch it out farther. Definitely some issues there. I've also noticed that the tracks system needs some better stops on the crossover pipes to keep the tracks chassis from sliding off. Right now, I've thinking of replacing the teeth. I've gone online and I see there are quite a few options. Anyone have a good source for them? I was able to upload the first and last picture of the teethe and the other two are the cross pipes.
Resize your pics. They are much too close up.
I don't really know how to resize them. That's how they come straight off the phone.
That's odd, I never have them that big when attaching them.
Oh gosh, I see what you say about them being so big. That is not how they are on the phone.
I tried to post one photo of the length of the tooth.
Nope. That didn't work. I don't know how to fix it.
I resized it to 600x450. Is your original photo showing more than this ? Here is the tooth.
Hey Guys, I'm new to the forums and a Hein-Werner owner also. I see that these posts about the C12-HD are about a year old now, but to address the picture size issue, send your pictures from smart phone to your home P.C. or any P.C., then using the 'paint' app that comes on most computers resize your pictures. First, I save the original pictures to a file, in case something goes wrong trying to resize them, you still have them, then I resize them smaller until they're easier to send and open at the user's end and add a 1 or 2 to each pictures name and save the resized images too. You can then email them from your P.C. or back to your phone I suppose and to 'cloud' storage too. I don't have a smart phone, just a flip phone, but I've ALWAYS got my 'still' picture camera and my video camera with me. I pull their cards out, stick them in my home p.c. and save or edit pictures and copy them to a flash-drive as a back-up in case my cameras are ever lost, damaged or stolen. I had to start down-sizing pictures to fit them on e-Bay, but certainly most, if not all smart phones should have picture editing features I would think. Or an available app. I don't know if this any help or not coming from a dinosaur!! B.C.