I planned to rent a dozer but have determined the cost will be too high for the large projects I have planned. I need to cut down a hill to create more flat land, remove a bunch of trees (also have a Case 580B to help with roots), grade some very rocky earth, cut in a driveway. Local Sunbelt quoted me about $2,200 delivered w/tax for a week for a JD 650J (real nice machines, so I've heard). With my work interfering with progress I may need it for a month. No good. So, if I wanted to buy a used dozer and take a more time with it, what should I get for less than $15K (closer to $10K preferred) what should I get? I understand whatever I buy will may need a few thousand dollars in parts/repairs over the year I plan to keep it (may keep it longer if it proves as useful as my backhoe). My initial searching has lead me toward a Case 450C (bumper pull at only 12-13K pounds is a plus). Prices are reasonable and I have a large local dealer that has been good with 580B parts. I changed the brakes, replaced ring gear, replaced axle bearing, removed cylinders and hoses on the 580B. So I have some ability with HE. I really need help with what brands/models are reliable, and what to look and listen for when testing (some very specific details would be great). I would prefer to take someone with me who knows these things in and out, but I don't have that kind of support. For instance: https://bgky.craigslist.org/hvo/d/case-450c-dozer/6344639237.html Thanks for your help. Just trying to not make a bad buy.
based on the description of what you want to accomplish I believe you will need a tractor of much larger size than a 450 case. For the budget you have you are probably looking at a much older cat and it either will work for you before needing major work or it won't. I have a D31E at 14,500lbs and from my experience with it, it would take a lifetime to cut down and flatten a hill with a blade that size and removing a bunch of trees would be an incredible amount of digging with a machine that light. you actually might come out ahead on $15K or less just paying someone to do it for you. It is amazing the difference of what someone with full-size equipment can accomplish vs. what can be done with a small dozer (speaking from experience on that point) good luck
A little dozer will make little progress. I started at 15k budget on both a skid steer and a dozer, ended up closer to 30k on each. I would want at least a 100hp dozer. Not sure how you plan to pay for it but I would put a bigger down payment (say 6k) on a bigger machine set it up on yearly payments get the work done and sell it before first payment is due. Unless you plan on keeping it. Trust me you don’t want to spend all your time working on an old dozer instead of working with it.
I've probably mislead about cutting down a hill (could mean anything). It's really just taking down the hilltop, about 5ft deep and 100ft x 150ft. I've been looking around and I see the big old machines FS; the idea of them is great - 30K+ pounds, drop the blade and keep going no matter what. But every part of owning it becomes a bigger and more expensive job. Plus this is hilltop and maneuverability is important. Maybe a middle ground. 20K pound or so. like this? https://nashville.craigslist.org/hvo/d/dozer-d5-cat/6391236094.html
Seems like that always happens. Start looking in a price range then slowly creep up, before you know it you're only interested in things twice the price. I agree $30K gets me everything I would want, but is there no value in the less expensive machines? These projects are not that time sensitive, but I also don't want a machine sitting for months on end because it's always broken. I plan to pay cash. I like the idea of buying something and being able to sell it for the same price once I'm done with it. But with more expensive equipment I may be worried the whole time about the potential loss I may take on it. I wish I could afford to get this: https://nashville.craigslist.org/hvo/d/2010-john-deere-450j-lt/6380267216.html
The 580 will do the work better that a 450 IMHO, mostly because it's there already, and you've fixed it already. You'll have to do the work differently than with a dozer. Like rip the dirt loose with the backhoe and move with the bucket for the short hauls. I've done bigger projects than that with smaller equipment, just spread out over some time. If you need it done now, you'd be better hiring it done.
This looks like a good deal to me https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/hvo/d/john-deere-650h-lt-dozer/6389938547.html Might have to ship it though. I don’t think you would loose any money on a C cat, G Case, or G Deere. Good dozers without a lot of electronics or hydraulics to give trouble.
I agree with this. Depending how far you needed to move the dirt from the hill, you could maybe look at a truck to haul the material. I've seen good working single axle dump trucks under $5000. Your 580B will do the work and you don't have to worry about what will break next on a used dozer. Yes, there is always something unexpected that breaks or needs fixing on a used machine. It wouldn't hurt to get an estimate to hire the work out either.
We had a dozer conversation back on the last reclaim job I did. We used a D11N for most of the pushing. Another contractor we know said, "Hell boys my D5 will do that job just like your 11 will. It'll just take me longer." It's been said many times on here. If you want it done quickly and with minimal headaches then pay somebody. If you've got time, a high tolerance for mechanical and financial drama then buy a dozer and go nuts. No wrong way to do it.....it's all in the perspective. Make it fun and find an old 2U D8 cat and go old school.....
450's too light for the job by the sounds . Do you know of a machine that you are sure of , 450 or not , if you know the machine and what its like is the battle half won . D4D are simple , no electronics , built before the bulldust started , cheap to transport . !0's of thousands built and most older dozer mechanic's will have worked on them . Young guy who had my place had a 450 , broke down driving up the road on delivery , thing wanted to drive in circles and inside a year he spent more fixing it than he paid for it .
My original plan was to use the backhoe to dig and my 70hp Kubota with a rear blade to drag the dirt around. After having to change the ring gear in the 580 I don't want to do it again. I figured a dozer was built for pushing and could move more dirt at one time so it was the right tool and I would not have to work the 580 so hard. I checked with a local guy who has a D5G and his price is $100/hr. Not bad, but I have probably 100 hours of work to do, and figuring in for prep work there would be a lot of time the dozer would just be sitting there, or he would be gone and I need the dozer.
I think this is the line everyone has to decide what side their on. I prefer to do everything myself, but do I want to work on a dozer. I really want a D8. There's a D9 local to me for $25K; I guess 300hp should do the job. Haha.
That's my problem - I don't know dozers. My only experience is with the 580 and some tractors. I singled out the Case because I have a local Case dealer, I've read almost all good about them, and they seem to be less expensive. It seems Cat rules the dozer world, but somewhat out of my price range. although this D4H is close: https://nashville.craigslist.org/hvo/d/cat-d4h-lgp-power-shift/6362848549.html
What about these? https://jacksontn.craigslist.org/hvo/d/case-d1150-dozer/6373497576.html https://northmiss.craigslist.org/hvo/d/1997-dresser-td-7h-dozer/6364001585.html
I was thinking of a barely working dump for under $1,000 for the longer hauls. When it falls apart, you make the back half into a dump trailer for the Kubota, which will be handier to have around than a dump truck anyway.
Last fall I bought a 1975 JD 450C... I only put a few hours on it a year..maybe 50 or so...I paid 10,000. I trusted the guy I bought it from... He is an antique equipment guy and a square shooter. The dozer was under roof, never painted and needed bottom rollers, and an angle hose. I put the rollers under it myself, cost me about 900 bucks for the rollers. Rails "chains" were OK... not great, but plenty left for me. IF you know equipment from running a lot of it, you can get a fair idea of what you are buying used.... Its never a sure thing, more of an educated guess. Lots of things will point to a machine that has been beat up or not maintained well. Cracks, bashed up blades, major repair welds, the list goes on... BUT you can find good machines at a fair price or even a good price. You should have a person that knows dozers well, to help you find one thats decent. They are a machine that tends to live a tough life, whatever you do... Do NOT let nice paint fool you... some of the best stuff cosmetically looks like crap. Paint does not make them good, it hides things.... I started with a 40C JD, then a 450C, then a.... TD-25C... and a D8H. I love all of them, But, they are mainly toys for me. If they run, move, seem not ready to explode... then its OK for me. But if you want to do a lot of work... be careful. For my main machines, I have a New Holland Tractor/Loader and a mini-excavator.. both bought new... I will never use them up and can sell them if I no longer need 'em for nearly as much as I paid for them...hopefully. Low hour machines bring good money. Sometimes its even better to buy an old machine if you are not afraid to do some wrenching.You can work on the old ones without software and laptop.
(( I checked with a local guy who has a D5G and his price is $100/hr. Not bad, but I have probably 100 hours of work to do )) how do you figure you have 100 hours to do ? the guy with the D5 may do it in half of the time , and any repairs are on his Dime. having a cat is fun , I have a D5h-xl and it was fun until I put 15,000 dollars into the transmission and steering clutches.. JUST my 2 cents
100 hours is just a round number that seems reasonable. I'll be compacting the dirt being leveled on the first job I have lined up, so that will slow things down some. I find that most things take longer than expected or should be planned that way. I hate to pay that kind of money for equipment I don't own, and not get to do the work on my own schedule (self employed makes for a random schedule). I do appreciate not being responsible for repairs and understand the cost of paying to have a pro do it, I just don't like it. If I can get a machine that will run for 100 hours then sell it for about the same money I've saved 5-10K, or if I end up spending 5-10K on repairs on the machine then I may break even.
What you say is true. I like doing work myself and saving money, plus get to have a little fun owning and working on different equipment. I really think you would be happier with a 100 hp size dozer but that just depends on your expectations. I saw one of my neighbors was cleaning up a fence row with what looked like a 70-80’s model JD 450 or smaller dozer earlier this week. He was getting the job done but was moving slow. Haven’t got to talk to him yet to see were he got it. My only fear with buying an older small dozer would be break downs and repair cost vs. what it’s worth. If you break a transmission that cost $6-8,000 to fix you probably can’t recoup that cost at resale and 100 hrs worth of work won’t work that repair out of the machine. I planned on putting 500 hrs on mine and selling it, I’m at a 1,100 hrs now and still have more to do. At $100 an hour custom rate I’ve worked most any repairs I might have out of it at this point.
The disadvantage of renting is that rent is based on 40 hours a week. If you are up to that, the math often pencils out. I usually need the equipment for 10 or 20 hours a week, and due to my age I can't take much more pounding than that anyway. Much depends on how close the rental yard is and how reasonable their rates are. Buying old machinery is a good way to go if you are not only very mechanically inclined but also good at buying and selling stuff. I happen to be good at both so junky old iron works for me. There are a whole lot of ways to go wrong if you don't have these characteristics. I did mechanic work for 21 years and I still find more things wrong with machines I buy after I get them home and tinker with them a bit. I've hired work out to contractors too, well into six figures. For improving a rural property, it's awful hard to get your money back out of projects when you pay that kind of money. Then you're still subject to their logistics and character. It really depends a lot on the individual and the local economy. It doesn't hurt to get bids and check references. If you're not there the whole time he is, hourly work might get padded. With bid jobs, often the result does not match the agreement as you visualized it.
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I think you want a dozer... if you can get one in your price range and it will move and function, then get yourself one.They are nice to have, and fun. If it breaks down, you just spend more, sell it, or scrap/parts it out. Any machine is a risk, but you run and fix your 580... the dozer is no different. For the work you describe.. an 8 or 10 ton machine will do a lot of work. I know my 450C will do a lot for me anyway. Its a 16,000 lb machine.
Can honestly state if you are willing to work on a machine considerably you can buy the older less expensive and off brand machines but they could become a money pit at any point in the operation. I was considering a bigger machine to remove some locust trees and cut in a pond, by the time I get it, buy the fuel, pay any upset breakdowns that come along I can contract to a regular contractor that does it for a living and have it done in half or less the time, for less money.
I do want a dozer because I think I'd find a lot more uses for it than I already have planned, like I did with the 580. Having unlimited use of a machine (if it's working) is a good feeling but I think I'm going to try to get by without a dozer for now. I'm going to ask the guy with a dozer to do some of the steep grade stuff and then I'll do the rest with the 580 and Kubota. Not going to enjoy it as much doing it this way, but I should save a few thousand. Thank you everyone. I appreciate the advice of people who work with HE. I learned a lot of details about what's it's like to buy and own a dozer, I'm not as jealous as I was.
FWIW I bought a 53 year old cat d7E a few months ago for a building project that I'm undergoing. I looked for awhile for the right Dozer and found an old but good one with a lot of life left. I cut in a long road and moved a lot of dirt for the building site already. Probably did about $15k worth of work and I got about $18k into the machine and fuel. When I'm all done improving the property I will have roughly $25k worth of work done and still should have a $15,000-$20,000 dollar machine. It's nothing to find an old used cat that has another 100-300 hours worth of life left in it. My Dozer probably realistically has thousands of hours left in it. At least probably 2000 in the undercarriage alone. I wouldn't of wanted to do it any other way myself. When I'm done I will probably see if I can make a little money with it from the local farmers around here. Clearing woods, building ponds and removing fence rows. The key is to find the right machine. Hope you can do the same Drew
You do realize that is almost 2800 cubic yards of material that's compacted they way it is in the hill it will end up about 30% more once you dig it out.
schmiddr2 , I'm in the same situation, but I'm going to do Ritchie Bros auctions and do a good prebuy, history from manufacturer etc. Go look at auction results. In my experience a lot of equipment dealers source and resell from auctions. Even though I'm green on owning a dozer, I've hauled heavy and own trucks for a long time and seen all types of earth moving pieces and what they look and feel like. When you own, you must think of repairs and for me, I'll try to find one that's had some of the major items done with low hours after repair. k
No, I did not know how much. I just figured it would be a lot. I am going to look at a sheepsfoot roller today. Plan to move some dirt, spread it to about 8-10" thick, spray it with water, then compact it down. Seems like I'm going to repeat this process a few hundred times.
Seems like a good plan. I've never really looked into auctions as I assumed I would be bidding against; dealers, shade tree mechanics, contractors, etc. and not really end up with such an amazing deal as I would hope for at auction. Also, there is no way I could go to an auction and come home with something in my designated budget.
Sometimes the older stuff at auctions goes real cheap because the contractors don't want it.
The key to the auction stuff is finding a machine that was owned by a NON-PROFIT entity. Mine was owned by a county landfill. A city,county,state etc machine that was serviced regularly and non run to death to make a buck is the one to get. An ex military machine would also be good. I've seen some county machines with low hours go pretty low for what they are. They usually have had an easy life compared to ones that run "under the gun" like the big companies do to make a profit with them.
Some of the auction sites like Brinkleys and Purpewave have a “previous auctions” section were you can see what equipment brought at auction. Kind of interesting to look through. Sometimes high sometimes low makes you wonder.
Guys, you are absolutely right. Ritchie bros has the previous auction prices of what's been sold. It's helped and if you watch models and years, they always sell about the same. I have my budget.
I think you might be surprised. You can go get a good used dumptruck, Mack, Freightliner, Western Star or Pete with either a cummins N14, damn reliable engine and easy work on or Detroit 12.7 with no emissions hassles and a cost of 5K to overhaul parts included. Emission repairs can set you back 5K fast, so stay pre-emmision engines. EGR valves can cost 2K to replace, the EGR cooler on a DD15 is 2400 for the part..... 1800 for the labor if your're lucky and they don't break the lines going back to the transmission, and the diesel particulate filter is 800 to clean and certify, 600 for the injection nozzle for diesel spray regeneration and 2K for the control system, again, if you're lucky and how do I know these prices?.... It's easy to see why Cat stopped making new Class 8 truck engines. There are 51 dump trucks that sold from 0-6 months ago, from 12-16000, with good mileage, up to 2006. Ritchie bros. Detroit 12.7 Cummins N14 Cat C12 (damn fine engine) C13 or 3406 (no C15 Acert) Mack E7 If you're just getting your CDL, there is so much you don't know and my advice is keep the emotion out of it, shiny can be lipstick on a pig or old can be a good deal like the gentleman said about not for profit and good maintenance. Put it all on paper and let the facts determine your course of action, and get a pre-buy inspection. After you buy it's yours. Just like the guys advise me to ask an expert for cutting in a road in steep terrain, you can damn sure bet I will do what they recommend. 'Cause I don't know what I don't know. k
Don't worry who you're bidding against.... it doesn't matter. Know you budget, don't go over, research early, inspect a few and buy one. Going to a used truck dealer will not get you any more peace of mind than you doing your own leg work. You want to give 30+% to a stranger? k
I have hired the guy with the D5G to push out the stumps and fill in the holes. From watching him so far, he is having to work them from all sides. So I've begun using my 580 to dig and break roots to help speed him up. After seeing what the D5G can do I figure I'd want something twice as large, and therefore will not be buying a dozer anytime soon. The Case 450C was not going to even be close to big enough. Thanks to everyone for helping me not make that mistake. I don't have to truck the dirt anywhere, so a dump truck is not going to help. This first project is basically just rough grading a hill top. May rent another backhoe so I can run it harder than I do mine if I need to move a large amount of dirt.
Weight becomes your friend, your enemy and your use cost level. Parts on bigger machines cost bigger money, older machines will tend to obsolesce where parts become thin and those remaining will draw premium pricing. A really heavy machine as a D7E or G, even to a D8 any series or a huge loader like a 977K or L will eat fuel like a pro, demand maintenance like clockwork and require a specialty hauler or permits and heavier equipment to move.
I agree, that's why I'm not doing it. My bank account was getting scared. Here is the work going on. There was a house and 50 or so trees. And here you can see my new sheepsfoot as well.
Lot of scrubby stuff, a large dozer could make short work of but also tears a lot up. Looks decent so far I would not worry too much on time pressure.
Thanks to everyone who offered expertise and opinion. I rented a Deere 650J from Sunbelt. Was not cheap, $2,200 for a week, but I got everything done that I wanted to and even started a new project. The 650J was so easy to drive, 30 minutes in and I was comfortable and efficient enough. Still, it didn't remove trees very easily if they were larger than 10" diameter, but it was so easy to use I didn't really care. Burned through about 50 gallons of diesel in the 40 hours of use. All in all I'd say it's a good dozer for an acre of dirt with few trees.
Next up I'll be renting a trackhoe/excavator. Need to dig footers in this dirt and dig a basement on a hill (probably be 10ft in the earth. What size should I get? The hill is under 15 deg slope. I don't know if they will come with single gousers or not...will that matter on the hill?
Excavator will come three bar steel or if smaller rubber flat foot tracks. Have only seen one slip in mud or on greater than a 4/1 slope. If it were myself, I would rent a loader to dig the foundation not a excavator although I have seen it done with both. If you dig from center out with a hoe and you need to drop the bottom more is a bit tougher than driving the loader in then scratch a little more out while removing spoil to stockpile is easier on a excavator.
Nice looking job you did with the rented machine thee schmiddr2. Now you have some dozer experience under your belt!